Schools District Ditching Macs

[Steve]

It would seem that more and more school districts are getting rid of Macs (http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?news=MjMwOTEsLCxobmV3cywsLDE=) in favor of PCs. The argument, valid or not, is that the school district needs kids to learn on a platform that 95% of the “real world” uses.

Willard said he decided on the new platform because most people use Microsoft programs in "the real world," and open source systems provide a way for the district to keep students from downloading items such as music and movies onto the school's computer hard drives -- items that, ultimately, cost the district to delete.

[theelectic]

Why can't they just admit the reason they switch is that PCs are cheaper initially in the $ you pay up front, instead of this BS about the "real world" and "open source"?

[djnes]

There's nothing wrong with that. When I started at Drexel U in 1996, it was all Mac. Enough people started to complain that after graduating, and even during the co-op periods before graduation, they didn't know PCs enough for the "real world". Drexel went through a major shift, and now is probably about 99% PC. If it's an educational institution, geared towards preparing kids for the "real world", you should give them the same tools they will encounter. I'm not bashing Macs at all. If a kid goes to college for graphic arts, these schools should have Mac labs for that. But for IT and Engineers at Drexel, it was pointless to have Macs.

[Steve]

It is funny that when I was in school, all they had were Macs, and most of us graduated from high school and went on to college PC-illiterate.

Fast forward 14 years, my daughter is a senior at a high school that uses Macs and none of her friends can use a PC either. The same problem is perpetuating itself all over again. The ones that can use a PC are the girls that learned at home.

Like djnes said, no one is bashing Macs, the point is that if the world is 95% Windows / Linux PC based, it is in our children’s best interest to learn how to use those platforms.

[Mark_Warner]

The school district I grew up in dumped their Apples when I was in about the 5th grade. There were still some Mac labs available, but the computers that the teachers and students regularly used were all PCs.

[legendz411]

In a purely academic interest, I can only say, "What took so long?"


Its a fact that the world is PC. Us kids were only being hampered by the Mac/Apple environment when the jobs we strive to get are PC.

On a side note, I just finished my Collage Algebra and A/P Physics classes! Yay!

[Lebowski]

I guess Apple stopped giving the schools a huge price cut. Oh well it's a good thing, less Macs in schools = less metros.

[Crow T. Robot]

My gosh! What is it with the 'PC vs. Mac' debate and the inability of people to move from one to another in the 'real world'? That's like saying: Whoa - we shouldn't teach kids to drive on a BMW (or pick another maker of your choice) because the majority of cars in the US are Ford (or Chevy...or whatever other car brand you want to insert here - I know, I know - this isn't a perfect analogy, but you get my point). A car is a car is a car. Are you saying that if a person learns MS Office, Photoshop, Firefox, etc. on a Mac that they'll be unable to do the same on a PC? If people are that dumb, then maybe the choice of computers is the least of their concerns.

My kids each have a Mac at home...but our school district is completely PC. My kids have no issue switching from one to another. My wife is a technophobe...but has no problem moving from one platform to another. Sure, there are some minor operational differences between platforms - but it is no different than the operational differences between an Xbox, Playstation, or Wii (and kids have no problems with those).

Personally, I think a person will have MORE marketable skills if they have had the widest-possible exposure to all major computing platforms (Linux included). I have nothing against Win PC's - I make a fine living being an MCSE. But, to use the argument that schools, etc., need to drop Macs because most of the world is PC is specious at best.

Name the skills that a person needs to know for which a Windows PC is a must-have item. Malware removal specialist? Antivirus definition writer? Seriously, though, name a "real world" situation where a person with Mac skills would be at a disadvantage? The only things I can think of are particular programmers, or PC service technicians. Other than that, an app is an app is an app - if I can type a letter on a Mac, I can do the same on a PC. If I can use a spreadsheet on a Mac, I can use on on a PC. Am I missing something here?

Where is the legitimate argumentto remove the Macs?

[LoneWolf]

I guess Apple stopped giving the schools a huge price cut. Oh well it's a good thing, less Macs in schools = less metros.

Apple isn't as education-friendly as they used to be. They still have K-12 discounts, but when other companies (read: Dell, HP, Gateway) offer deep discounts for products sold in quantities of 100+, and Apple says "Sorry, same price", schools are going to choose the less expensive. Seeing as multiple states are having trouble funding their schools (I won't get into the debate about how/why, other than to say that it is happening), saving money is a good thing. Nobody wants to sacrifice technology resources (i.e., number of computers) so they switch.

Some of it is also due to software solutions that may be better developed on the PC. Not a knock against Macs, but when a product a school uses isn't well-developed on the Mac front, it causes issues for everyone running Macs. You could say "The school should drop the product", but it may not be that easy, due to cost concerns or state mandates.

I, personally haven't found the Mac to be as good of a setup in a client/server environment as Windows-based machines, at least for students. Perhaps it is a lack of experience (btw, an Apple OS X Server training course will set you back about three grand last I checked, and I've not found near as many online resources from people who can offer advice or assistance from an IT standpoint for OS X). I need a way to have a seamless logon that gets the user in, and mounts their home network folder on the desktop, and has controls to keep them from messing the system up so the next person can't use it. The Mac can do some of that, but not all, and hasn't been as flexible for me as Windows group policies. To be sure, Windows has its own issues; we deal with them regularly, and it's far from perfect. I like Macs and PC's; I've just found the Mac better for single-user use, or in networked environments that don't need to be as controlled (i.e., advertising firm with adult employees rather than students).

Some schools also have a long memory of the mid-90's, when Apple sweethearted quite a few districts into all-in-one machines that were horribly crippled by bad design (Powermac 5200/5300) lines. Many of those schools suffered through 5-6 years of those machines, issues with logic board/hard disk/power+analog+video board failures, and swore they'd never buy Macs again.

[nray]

I started on Commodore 64, later Apple II, used TRS-80 systems, PCs from the 8086 through the modern day, Macs, UNIX workstations, supported Macs, PCs and VAX in college, SGI IRIX for computer science, and own over 30 vintage computers at home now.

If we wanted to give our kids the best possible exposure to technology, it would be Core 2 Duo based Macs running Boot Camp and Parallels Desktop virtual machine so kids could run Windows and Mac individually on the same machine or both at the same time. They'd get exposure to both OSes as well as getting access to the BSD command line and have the option of running X11 UNIX applications on the Mac side, compiling their own code with XCode, using AppleScript, or just doing UNIX shell scripting.

Of course, it would take a very forward-thinking and aware school IT staff to do this, and I find that most people who use computers, even other professional IT staff, lack the intellectual curiosity to expand themselves beyond their own limited exposure to technology, so it's not going to happen.

Instead we'll just get more popular press who like to naively categorize technology into what 'most people use' vs. 'everything else', even when it comes to education, where we should be more concerned about exposing our children the widest array of options and possibilities, to create a generation who can come up with new ideas and new ways of doing things, rather than just punching out mindless office workers... but our society seems to value the passive consumer more than the active thinker anyway. Most kids can rattle off the latest sports stars, but can they name any recent Nobel laureates or Fields Medal winners? Why not maintain the status quo and make sure they all run Microsoft Windows on PCs.

[modi123]

My gosh! What is it with the 'PC vs. Mac' debate and the inability of people to move from one to another in the 'real world'?

...

Where is the legitimate argumentto remove the Macs?

Hrmm.. where to start. I would say the snobbie (possibly even snooty or snottie!) attitude developed from owning an Apple. As a country trying to sell its image to the world, all we need now is the world to interact with Apple users on our behalf. Ooooohh lordy, it would just fuel the terrorists more!

Now moving on to the reality part of the post, first off your claim that "That's like saying: Whoa - we shouldn't teach kids to drive on a BMW (or pick another maker of your choice) because the majority of cars in the US are Ford (or Chevy...or whatever other car brand you want to insert here - I know, I know - this isn't a perfect analogy, but you get my point). A car is a car is a car" is a really bad analogy. Conceptually the operations are there, but the actions are not. If the car analogy is to work, switching between the two OSs would be like having the steering wheel in its usual position, then dropping that car user to where the steering wheel is in the back. The petals might be switched or not there! The disorientation of environment is what I am getting at.

Next, the "I think a person will have MORE marketable skills if they have had the widest-possible exposure to all major computing platforms (Linux included)." is correct in some situations, but is a wasted effort. Dare I start with, what Linux flavor? It's clear that there is a breadth versus depth issue here. I would advocate that in most circumstances being knowledgeable in the OS that is 95% used in the 'real world' is substantially more desirable than having a basic knowledge of the most used OS and a smattering of rarely used OS skills.

Third, "Name the skills that a person needs to know for which a Windows PC is a must-have item. Malware removal specialist? Antivirus definition writer? Seriously, though, name a "real world" situation where a person with Mac skills would be at a disadvantage? The only things I can think of are particular programmers, or PC service technicians. Other than that, an app is an app is an app - if I can type a letter on a Mac, I can do the same on a PC. If I can use a spreadsheet on a Mac, I can use on on a PC. Am I missing something here?" now this is kinda funny. I have a lot of users... errr clients... that use my department's software. On a slow day, for me, I helped out our hardware monkeys with some user issues. One floor decided to purchase iBooks for their field users (much against our suggestions). The number of calls our tech support got on just basic functionality, file locations, and usability was amazing. Granted once IN the application they could maneuver around, but trying to find saved files, or even the application executables was nigh impossible. Again, this goes back to disorientation. Things were popping up, widgets activating, and so on. We helped out as much as possible, but frankly we are a windows only company and could not support that department's decision. The next day those puppies were mailed back and replaced with regular dell laptops. The productivity ground to a halt because of orientation and familiarity. This department head believed like you - an OS is an OS is an OS. When the rubber met the pavement that is fundamentally not true.

Finally, "Instead we'll just get more popular press who like to naively categorize technology into what 'most people use' vs. 'everything else', even when it comes to education, where we should be more concerned about exposing our children the widest array of options and possibilities, to create a generation who can come up with new ideas and new ways of doing things, rather than just punching out mindless office workers... but our society seems to value the passive consumer more than the active thinker anyway. Most kids can rattle off the latest sports stars, but can they name any recent Nobel laureates or Fields Medal winners? Why not maintain the status quo and make sure they all run Microsoft Windows on PCs." at some level is right, but remember computers are just a means to an end. I can guarantee the accounting people upstairs could care less about being exposed to a new OS or having more "options and possibilities" available. They have a deadline of numbers to crunch, and the more familiar they are with the OS and maneuvering inside of it to crunch said numbers the happier they are. Remember, school is really about the fundamentals of science, math, English, history, and social sciences. It is NOT about being a tech fair to parade an endless carnival of software past them. Again, computers are means to an end, the end being education.

Oh, and the ""Of course, it would take a very forward-thinking and aware school IT staff to do this, and I find that most people who use computers, even other professional IT staff, lack the intellectual curiosity to expand themselves beyond their own limited exposure to technology, so it's not going to happen." is bunk ad hom. Just because people don't expand themselves in areas you care about do not make them mindless drones. I wish my friends in my department would expand themselves beyond their own limited exposure to baseball. Yeah, they seem to have no intellectual curiosity at all. Bums.

"Most kids can rattle off the latest sports stars, but can they name any recent Nobel laureates or Fields Medal winners?" That, by the way, is NOT a product of the OS wars. I blame MTV. And FalloutBoy. Probably Paris Hilton and Ms. Spears as well.

[qdemn7]

Gawd, the Apple zealots are going to be foaming at the mouth. :D

[modi123]

Gawd, the Apple zealots are going to be foaming at the mouth. :D

Yeah, I was already ambushed at lunch. I sent the news link out to a few people, and was promptly jumped in line. I hope none of them bit me... It would be true purgatory to be transformed into an iZombie. :cool:

[Crow T. Robot]

Hrmm.. where to start. I would say the snobbie (possibly even snooty or snottie!) attitude developed from owning an Apple. As a country trying to sell its image to the world, all we need now is the world to interact with Apple users on our behalf. Ooooohh lordy, it would just fuel the terrorists more!

I'm not going to disagree on the perceived 'snob' mentality of Apple - in fact, I would say that it is likely an accurate representation of many of them and of the company. The same can be said for owners of BMWs, Mercedes, etc. However, you have to admit that a BMW is made to a higher quality than a Hyundai. In my opinion, Macs are built to a much higher quality than most PC's.

Now moving on to the reality part of the post, first off your claim that is a really bad analogy. Conceptually the operations are there, but the actions are not. If the car analogy is to work, switching between the two OSs would be like having the steering wheel in its usual position, then dropping that car user to where the steering wheel is in the back. The petals might be switched or not there! The disorientation of environment is what I am getting at.

Like I said, it was a poor analogy. However, yours is just as poor. Trying to say that moving from one to another is akin to moving from a car w/ the steering and pedals in one place to a car with them all akimbo doesn't fit. It is more appropriate to equate the differences to things like the headlight switch being in different places, etc., and NOT a fundamental reorg of the device's layout.

Next, the is correct in some situations, but is a wasted effort. Dare I start with, what Linux flavor? It's clear that there is a breadth versus depth issue here. I would advocate that in most circumstances being knowledgeable in the OS that is 95% used in the 'real world' is substantially more desirable than having a basic knowledge of the most used OS and a smattering of rarely used OS skills.

It doesn't matter which Linux distro - any learning is good. That said, who cares what is on the computer? Most users don't - they just want to be able to do their job efficiently. I am the sysadmin of a school district with more than 17,000 computers servicing more than 30,000 users - all the computers are WinXP, by the way. The users on our computers are considered to be 'guests' of their machines and they all have locked down menus and desktops. They cannot add anything to them, and it doesn't look like a standard WinXP computer. However, NO ONE has any difficulty in learning our setup. Are we hindering the capabilities of our graduates because they can't get in to the registry or the control panels? Not in the least - they're able to type their papers and print their reports regardless of the configuration of their desktop and do all the stuff that really matters.

Third, now this is kinda funny. I have a lot of users... errr clients... that use my department's software. On a slow day, for me, I helped out our hardware monkeys with some user issues. One floor decided to purchase iBooks for their field users (much against our suggestions). The number of calls our tech support got on just basic functionality, file locations, and usability was amazing. Granted once IN the application they could maneuver around, but trying to find saved files, or even the application executables was nigh impossible. Again, this goes back to disorientation. Things were popping up, widgets activating, and so on. We helped out as much as possible, but frankly we are a windows only company and could not support that department's decision. The next day those puppies were mailed back and replaced with regular dell laptops. The productivity ground to a halt because of orientation and familiarity. This department head believed like you - an OS is an OS is an OS. When the rubber met the pavement that is fundamentally not true.

In your example, purchasing the iBooks was a stupid decision. However, that does not mean that it is stupid for organizations to have Macs. Proper training will alleviate a large majority of end-user problems. If both your support department and the floor that purchased the iBooks had been in collaboration with each other, this problem could have been avoided. But, again, I agree with you that the floor was stupid in unilaterally purchasing a platform for which the organization was not prepared to support.

As for users not being able to find files, then they must not have been very bright, anyway. Sorry to be so blunt, but it seems to me that the users were purely creatures of habit and possessed very little skill or common sense when it comes to computers. How difficult is it to find the folder on a Mac that says 'Documents'? Every user has one, and it is one of the default locations shown in the Finder windows that appear in almost every 'Open' and 'Save As...' dialog. Conversely, I would say the same about a Mac user that could not find the 'My Documents' location on a Windows PC. It isn't rocket science.

[Steve]

I am NOT trying to fan the PC v. Mac flame war, honest. I post this stuff because it is "news" today.

Having said that I have an honest question that I like to ask all Mac owners when these debates come up.

Let's just say I agree 110% with Apple owners:

PCs and Macs all started out at the same time / same place (roughly)

Microsoft stole the idea for Windows from Apple

Macs are clearly superior to PCs in both hardware and OS

How did Apple end up where it is at today with 3- 4% marketshare?

Are 95% of the people using PCs just stupid?

[stabilep]

Sadly Steve Mac Zealots would probably say "Yes they are idiots Steve"

[djnes]

I am arguing right now with an acquaintance about Macs. She has a 4 year old G4, and told me it's better for her graphics work than any PC ever built. I laughed and explained what the new Core 2 Duos are capable of. More comments back about how I don't know what I'm talking about.

I think asked her if Macs were so wonderful, why they switched to use PC hardware platforms. Dead silence...every freakin' time. In my opinion, if it's not an Intel based Mac, it's an overpriced, underpowered piece of shit.

What really pisses me off is how most older Mac users aren't technical at all, but still feel qualified to argue with people about the hardware capabilities. I'm starting to realize I don't hate Macs...I just hate Mac Zealots.

[Lazybones]

Platform would be less of a problem if schools had time to dedicate to teaching desktop concepts, instead of showing students.. This is how you launch "blank" app this is the icon you press to save.....

If you only teach a user how to get stuff done in a particular OS / APP that is all they will know.

The difference between MAC OS and Windows differs greatly. Particularly how the menu bar at the top off apps work and how the desktop handles drag and drop. Since schools can not afford to have more than one platform, nor apparently the time to teach the concepts of how a desktop os works they are not going to have a choice but go Windows / Office and teach students how to launch and use Word and Excel so that when they go looking for an office job or try and use a university lab they can sit down and start writhing reports.

It is probably much easier for a person brought up on windows who goes into a MAC dominated field to learn MAC OS. When you go to learn graphic design or maybe publishing I am sure they spend a grate deal of time introducing you to the job specific apps and how they work. Hence you will also get some training on how the OS interface works.

[Crow T. Robot]

I am NOT trying to fan the PC v. Mac flame war, honest. I post this stuff because it is "news" today.

Having said that I have an honest question that I like to ask all Mac owners when these debates come up.

Let's just say I agree 110% with Apple owners:

PCs and Macs all started out at the same time / same place (roughly)

Microsoft stole the idea for Windows from Apple

Macs are clearly superior to PCs in both hardware and OS

How did Apple end up where it is at today with 3- 4% marketshare?

Are 95% of the people using PCs just stupid?

Apple ended up that way because they executed some monumentally stupid business decisions. I am a fan of the products of Apple Computer - NOT of Steve Jobs or the 'Reality Distortion Field'. I prefer Macs because, after a long day at work working ON computers, I like coming home and being able to work WITH a computer. I don't want to come home and check for spyware, viruses, etc. - I just want to do the things I enjoy.

Microsoft, on the other hand, made some monumentally genius business decisions. I don't hate MS - like I've said before, the certifications that I have on their products have provided me a very nice living. I just feel that they have done a poor job of making a quality product. It is terribly sad that many people consider the technical maladies that befall their Windows computers to be a simple fact of life. It is a shame that our school district must spend tens of thousands of dollars - annually - solely to make sure that our computers are somewhat protected from viruses and malware. Even then, there are a fair number of things that can still infect a computer that will bypass the safeguards and necessitates a technician's time and effort to rectify.

Why is that considered acceptable?

[TechLarry]

Probably not a bad idea, but if they think this is going to lower costs or making management easier, they have another thing coming.

I find this comment especially interesting:

"and open source systems provide a way for the district to keep students from downloading items such as music and movies onto the school's computer hard drives -- items that, ultimately, cost the district to delete."

Just wait until they get a load of spyware. That will knock their socks off.

They will wish music was all they had to worry about.

Kids will open, run and copy anything. And a locked down windows system can still be infected.

-Larry

[Steve]

Mac users don’t see it like that either. Apple can sell them five operating systems in 5 years, all which require new software/drivers/platform migration/headaches and they are perfectly fine with it. They even make fun of Vista “taking so long”.

Most of you will ALSO remember Apple, full well knowing they are going to announce Intel based Macs in one month, PRAISING the performance of the Power Mac and touting their now infamous benchmarks….only to release the “fastest Mac ever” with Intel inside. Behind the scenes they KNEW the Intel Macs were coming but did a full court press to sell the PowerMacs to the faithful. Ouch.

If I was a Mac owner I’d go postal if I dropped $3,999.99 on a PowerMac after listening to Apple’s marketing BS only to get humiliated a month later by the Intel based Macs that are performing twice as fast as the unit you sold me last month. Apple even had the gall to post benchmarks showing the Intel Mac was faster than the same Mac they sold a month ago. What the!?!?!

Heh, anyhow...I bow out of this one before I post a picture of me in my Mac days. :eek:

[Crow T. Robot]

How did Apple end up where it is at today with 3- 4% marketshare?

Are 95% of the people using PCs just stupid?

Steve - the marketshare numbers are misleading. The 3-4% includes businesses and educational institutions. I wish I had the source so I could quote it, but I *think* that I read that Macs had a 10-15% share when you only look at home users.

Of course, take that with a large grain of salt since I can't find the source, but I'm fairly positive that it is an accurate representation.

[Lazybones]

Why is that considered acceptable?

In a perfect world it would not however history seems to dictate that the most popular platform will also be the most popular target for attack.

It is less published but security tracking sites regularly find holes in MAC OS, Linux, FireFox and many other products that people claim to be secure without extra software or care.

FireFox is a good example, as it's market share has grown, so has the number of targeted spyware attacks. The FireFox team is rather quick to fix these, but they do exist.

I have a feeling that if MacOS was the dominant platform we would almost as many exploits attacking it.

Many Windows users can claim a perfectly running stable home system just the same as MacOS or Linux users. However spread over a divers user set I can site cases of windows bluescreens, MacOS bombs or spinning cursors, even Linux kernel panics. The causes are almost all the same as well. Bad hardware, user set them self up with admin rights and corrupted system files, bad software, malware.. ect.

[Night Black]

Well, it's about time. The Macs at my school were these b&w screens with terrible reliability.

[Crow T. Robot]

Mac users don’t see it like that either. Apple can sell them five operating systems in 5 years, all which require new software/drivers/platform migration/headaches and they are perfectly fine with it. They even make fun of Vista “taking so long”.

Most of you will ALSO remember Apple, full well knowing they are going to announce Intel based Macs in one month, PRAISING the performance of the Power Mac and touting their now infamous benchmarks….only to release the “fastest Mac ever” with Intel inside. Behind the scenes they KNEW the Intel Macs were coming but did a full court press to sell the PowerMacs to the faithful. Ouch.

If I was a Mac owner I’d go postal if I dropped $3,999.99 on a PowerMac after listening to Apple’s marketing BS only to get humiliated a month later by the Intel based Macs that are performing twice as fast as the unit you sold me last month. Apple even had the gall to post benchmarks showing the Intel Mac was faster than the same Mac they sold a month ago. What the!?!?!

Heh, anyhow...I bow out of this one before I post a picture of me in my Mac days. :eek:

I almost completely agree w/ you about pushing one model prior to a new one coming out. However, just about any business that sells things do the same thing. That doesn't make it right, though. My take on technology is that if a product is offered that does everything you need it to do at a price that you're willing to pay, and does it well and is well-built, then you shouldn't care about what is coming next.

[zeplar]

Platform would be less of a problem if schools had time to dedicate to teaching desktop concepts, instead of showing students.. This is how you launch "blank" app this is the icon you press to save.....

That's especially true with the new interface in Office 2007. I asked a couple of students who just completed an office skills class to create a document in Word 2007. They struggled and struggled some more. Yet, it's the same PC platform they aced their class with.

I'm a little surprised that the school districts would totally dump Macs. We're actually buying more Macs now that they're Intel. We no longer need to separate Mac and PC labs, we just have a "computer lab" with dual-booting Apple-branded computers. Our MS Campus Agreement already allows us to install XP/Vista and Office on these Macs at no additional charge.

Apple even came in a lot cheaper than Dell on our recent order. Their 5-packs were reasonably priced, plus an additional discount because we were replacing PCs. I guess it was part of the "switcher" promotions.

[Crow T. Robot]

In a perfect world it would not however history seems to dictate that the most popular platform will also be the most popular target for attack.

It is less published but security tracking sites regularly find holes in MAC OS, Linux, FireFox and many other products that people claim to be secure without extra software or care.

FireFox is a good example, as it's market share has grown, so has the number of targeted spyware attacks. The FireFox team is rather quick to fix these, but they do exist.

I have a feeling that if MacOS was the dominant platform we would almost as many exploits attacking it.

Many Windows users can claim a perfectly running stable home system just the same as MacOS or Linux users. However spread over a divers user set I can site cases of windows bluescreens, MacOS bombs or spinning cursors, even Linux kernel panics. The causes are almost all the same as well. Bad hardware, user set them self up with admin rights and corrupted system files, bad software, malware.. ect.

I don't know if I can fully subscribe to this argument. It seems to me - though I am not a hacker/cracker/exploit writer by any stretch of the imagination - that someone out there would love to put the feather in their cap by being the first person to write a "successful" Mac virus/worm. Currently, the only things that have been shown are lab proof of concepts and rely on the end user doing something (like typing in their password) in order for the malware to propagate.

As for holes in the OS - yes, OS X has plenty of them. The difference is that no one has been able to write anything that can spread in the wild.

[Furystrike]

remember, competition is good for the end user.

You buy a mac and you are buying from one company. Buy a PC and you've got hundreds of businesses all competing to get inside your system.

Everyone (well nearly) on the [H] is so adament about the perks of building your own system. Building your own mac leaves you severely limited with your choices.

[Furystrike]

As for holes in the OS - yes, OS X has plenty of them. The difference is that no one has been able to write anything that can spread in the wild.That and due to their >5% market share, no one cares enough to. If you wanna pump up your e-peen, you might as well show it off to as many people as possible. You do that by writing malware for windows

[djnes]

That and due to their >5% market share, no one cares enough to. If you wanna pump up your e-peen, you might as well show it off to as many people as possible. You do that by writing malware for windows
The best analogy I've ever heard is this. If you were going to tax vehicles on the road...would you target 4 wheel vehicles, or 2 wheel vehicles? Assuming you were taxing to make money, you'd go after the 4 wheel variety because they VASTLY outnumber the 2 wheel kind.

[Crow T. Robot]

remember, competition is good for the end user.

You buy a mac and you are buying from one company. Buy a PC and you've got hundreds of businesses all competing to get inside your system.

Everyone (well nearly) on the [H] is so adament about the perks of building your own system. Building your own mac leaves you severely limited with your choices.

This is one that I can agree with. I love building my own uber gaming machines w/ liquid cooling, monster video cards, etc. It is fun to do, and gives you a nice feeling of accomplishment. I would like nothing more than to build a LEGITIMATE computer that could run OS X.

[Lazybones]

That and due to their >5% market share, no one cares enough to. If you wanna pump up your e-peen, you might as well show it off to as many people as possible. You do that by writing malware for windows


Also todays worms are driven by malware / SPAMer dollars. The two are joined at the hip. No spammer is going to pay for a worm to infect MAC hosts as the numbers are too low.

This is how SPAM is mostly mailed these days, a worm is witting to install a bot on as many hosts as possible. A SPAM email can then be sent randomly from these hosts helping prevent ISPs and SPAM software from blocking a single point of origin.

[Crow T. Robot]

The best analogy I've ever heard is this. If you were going to tax vehicles on the road...would you target 4 wheel vehicles, or 2 wheel vehicles? Assuming you were taxing to make money, you'd go after the 4 wheel variety because they VASTLY outnumber the 2 wheel kind.

So, if you're going to make a name for yourself in mountain climbing circles, you should summit a 2-meter anthill rather than Mt. Everest?

[djnes]

So, if you're going to make a name for yourself in mountain climbing circles, you should summit a 2-meter anthill rather than Mt. Everest?
No, you have it backwards. If you want to make a name for yourself in the virus writing community, you would go after Mount Everest...which in this case, is Windows.

[Crow T. Robot]

No, you have it backwards. If you want to make a name for yourself in the virus writing community, you would go after Mount Everest...which in this case, is Windows.

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree w/ the premise. I equate Everest w/ something that is difficult and is considered to be a momentous achievement. Writing malware for Windows is like bedding Paris Hilton - anyone can do it.

[djnes]

But your missing the points others have been trying to make. OSX, Linux, Firefox, all have their own exploits. The question isn't so much which OS is more secure....the question is, which one the malware writers choose to exploit. Steve had it dead on, that several security companies are able to find holes in OSX and in Linux. Frankly, it seems like Apple is much slower to admit a hole and offer a fix compared to Microsoft. It all comes down to causing the most damage...not which OS is easier to exploit.

[Lazybones]

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree w/ the premise. I equate Everest w/ something that is difficult and is considered to be a momentous achievement. Writing malware for Windows is like bedding Paris Hilton - anyone can do it.

Your right... If you mounted everest the most you might get is an article in an outdoor mag, but if you mounted Paris Hilton there would probably be multiple video releases not to mention the press about the nerd she is with now. It would be all over the tabloids and of course the front page of [H].

[Crow T. Robot]

But your missing the points others have been trying to make. OSX, Linux, Firefox, all have their own exploits. The question isn't so much which OS is more secure....the question is, which one the malware writers choose to exploit. Steve had it dead on, that several security companies are able to find holes in OSX and in Linux. Frankly, it seems like Apple is much slower to admit a hole and offer a fix compared to Microsoft. It all comes down to causing the most damage...not which OS is easier to exploit.

In post #27 I stated that Mac OS X had plenty of holes. So....???

[Crow T. Robot]

Your right... If you mounted everest the most you might get is an article in an outdoor mag, but if you mounted Paris Hilton there would probably be multiple video releases not to mention the press about the nerd she is with now. It would be all over the tabloids and of course the front page of [H].

Yes, yes - I saw the flaw in my post as soon as I hit 'submit'. But the mental image of mounting Paris gives me the full-body dry heaves... But, in either endeavor, you'd want to make sure you had your full climbing gear in the event you fell in a crevasse. :eek:

[Nek]

I guess my school district is doing totally the opposite

this year we have around 250 mac books and smart boards distributed among the math, computer, and science departments. Also the library laptops were replaced by mac books as well and we have a couple of iMacs in the library too
...that's pretty expensive I think, and it doesn't even include the charging card they come with along with printer attached to every cart, ~30 books per cart depending on class size

they're saying this is only a pilot program, and that in a few years every student will get their personal laptop they could take home instead of books/notebooks

[djnes]

But, in either endeavor, you'd want to make sure you had your full climbing gear in the event you fell in a crevasse. :eek:
The only crevasse she has is between her ears.

[Crow T. Robot]

The only crevasse she has is between her ears.

I would say that she was as dumb as a bag of rocks, but that would be mean to the rocks...and the bag.

[Steve]

I just want to give props to Crow T. Robot.

The guy registers today, states his opinion on a hot topic like this and defends it against the crush of PC users and hasn't lost his cool. Not an easy thing to do around here.

:)

[Joves]

Well I actually think that the students are under served, by not having both. For those kids who want to excel in comp sciences, they would be best educated by having both OSes and, systems. I see it as the school systems narrowing choices in an area where we need to become better, than the rest of the world. Just my opinion.

[w1retap]

I've had quite a bit of Mac using over my years of schooling.

My first computer I ever used was an Apple II GS. I used them all through elementary school. They were fine because we just did learning, spelling, and oregon trail on them. :p

From there, I went into middle school where we had G3's. They seemed slow compared to my home AMD powered system, and both were new at the time. On the application subject, I did a little web development where I learned to make my first website. I was just beginning to use the internet heavily around this time and get into gaming. This is where the problems began. Most of my PC games weren't mac compatible, especially with aftermarket mods, so I did not buy one. On top of that, they always had internet plugin issues and could not offer me some programs that I used on my PC.

In high school, we had all PC's, and I had no problems.

In college now, I'm in engineering. We have a mac lab, a Sun Computer lab, and a pc lab running XP and Vista. Most of the engineering applications don't work on a mac, so we have to use PC's or Unix. I hate Mathematica on the Macs because it never works. I type in the right commands, yet it doesn't process and I have to restart the progam, then it works fine again. I choose the PC version of Mathematica.

In work, I work at a TV studio. We had Apple reps come out with some of their non-linear editing systems for us to try out for a month. Needless to say, we refused their offer and told them not to come back unless they could give us something that worked. When we captured footage on the Mac Quads via firewire, it would just randomly freeze up, but work fine other times. There was no way I could figure out what was going wrong because there was no error log or indication something went wrong. For our live studio capture, their genlock cards were WAYYYY overpriced, and they would lose genlock half the time for some reason causing us to lose the capture ability. I preferred using Adobe Premiere on the Mac instead of Final Cut. Adobe was a little more technical and easier to navigate and edit with. For the price of their edit system they wanted to sell us for our studio, I built 3 other windows non-linear editors that do the same job, only better and with more storage, plus they are HDV ready for when we transition next year. The professional quality HDV studio capture card for the Mac was another $1500 on top of the price.

That's my story with macs.. not too great of experiences, but I guess for some people they are fine.

[CopyCat]

I just want to give props to Crow T. Robot.

The guy registers today, states his opinion on a hot topic like this and defends it against the crush of PC users and hasn't lost his cool. Not an easy thing to do around here.

:)So true, hahaha.

I think this is a good idea btw. The removing Apples from school idea. I don't even see a reason to own an Apple anymore. There was a reason for awhile though.

[GMoney42392]

I am arguing right now with an acquaintance about Macs. She has a 4 year old G4, and told me it's better for her graphics work than any PC ever built. I laughed and explained what the new Core 2 Duos are capable of. More comments back about how I don't know what I'm talking about.

I think asked her if Macs were so wonderful, why they switched to use PC hardware platforms. Dead silence...every freakin' time. In my opinion, if it's not an Intel based Mac, it's an overpriced, underpowered piece of shit.

What really pisses me off is how most older Mac users aren't technical at all, but still feel qualified to argue with people about the hardware capabilities. I'm starting to realize I don't hate Macs...I just hate Mac Zealots.

QFT times a million. if i had a dime for every time some idiot at school praised macs for being "more secure" and "undeniably faster" than a good pc, i'd be chillin in the bahamas right now. its not that macs are bad (they're a lot better than pcs for publishing, graphics design, and the like), but the mac zeal needs to stop. most of it isn't even true. as a few people have stated, os x is about as holey as swiss cheese. what people needs to figure out is that there is a BIG difference between more secure and less exploited. one big virus that can completely wreck macs and buyers will turn away in droves. and since when can a mac outrun a similarly priced pc :confused: :confused: :confused:.

[Crow T. Robot]

I just want to give props to Crow T. Robot.

The guy registers today, states his opinion on a hot topic like this and defends it against the crush of PC users and hasn't lost his cool. Not an easy thing to do around here.

:)

Thanks, Steve. I'm always up for a good debate, and I don't hesitate to say when I'm wrong... this just isn't one of those times... ;)

BTW - I'm a PC user, too. I have a custom-built gaming rig that runs 24/7 and is way more powerful than any Mac that I own...it just isn't as much fun to use.

Thanks again, everyone - I appreciate the lively discussion. Now, if you'd all just get a Mac, we could live in peace and harmony... :eek: :D

[theelectic]

If kids are getting most of their computer time at school (i.e. they have no computer at home), then I might tend to agree that it would be best for them to learn and use what's most common: PCs.

OTOH, working with students aged 12-18, I can attest to the fact that for most kids, it really doesn't matter what OS is used, they will tend to get the hang of ANY program or OS they're interested in. I brought my iBook in one day to give a math graphing demo, and half the class had the equations down pat without ever using the program before, though the single mouse button did throw most of them for a loop. Older people who've never used anything but Windows or MacOS their entire life, I don't know.

[mdameron]

Good.

Real World > Ideal world.

I'd hate to have limited knowledge in Windows then try and get a job in the GIS field... a field dominated by a Microsoft-like entity called ESRI. They've just begun coding for systems other than Windows late this year.

Public schools already suck enough at preparing students for real world (who's to blame), least they can do is get them fluent in the technology they'll be using when they do hit the real world.

[mdameron]

If kids are getting most of their computer time at school (i.e. they have no computer at home), then I might tend to agree that it would be best for them to learn and use what's most common: PCs.

OTOH, working with students aged 12-18, I can attest to the fact that for most kids, it really doesn't matter what OS is used, they will tend to get the hang of ANY program or OS they're interested in. I brought my iBook in one day to give a math graphing demo, and half the class had the equations down pat without ever using the program before, though the single mouse button did throw most of them for a loop. Older people who've never used anything but Windows or MacOS their entire life, I don't know.


Then those kids ask "How long till we can start pwning noobs in CS:S, teacher?"

"Never on these computers. Lets make a photo album or create an uber audio mix instead!"

[ComputerBox34]

I'm a sophmore at highschool and we use XP on all of our machines.

Personally, I'm glad that we use XP because a majority of my friends use XP at home and I never could get used to the feeling of a mac. I just simply like windows better as an operating system.

I've also been using Windows ever since I was very young (5 or 6) and switching to mac now would be like a culture shock for me. I also prefer the OS that is most widley used rather one that's used by a few.

[ComputerBox34]

Then those kids ask "How long till we can start pwning noobs in CS:S, teacher?"

"Never on these computers. Lets make a photo album or create an uber audio mix instead!"

lol, another reason why I don't like Macs

[Nasty_Savage]

You guys are all hammer heads. I admin k-12 schools. Microsoft, Novell, and Macintosh. Higher education MAY have a point, but I am yet to see any curriculum that teaches getting around a computer, maintenance, etc. All you really learn is how to use Office or do other applications. Its pretty much THE SAME THING ON EITHER PLATFORM! It doesn't fucking matter which is deployed, or even a mixed environment, the fundamental skills are the same.

Good techs can lock down Macs with OSX or using Mac Manager for an OS9 based system. All they wind up doing is clicking an icon to launch the program. Is there a HUGE difference between Word on a Mac or Windows? No. Policies in Windows environments or Zenworks for Novell do the same thing as Mac Manager. The desktops and OS are locked so they can't fuck them up and the icons can't be switched around or accidentally deleted. All of you crying about it like it was gospel that clicking an icon on a desktop will make a difference in the 'real world' haven't ever actually BEEN in the real world. Unless you are IT or the school offers an IT training course it doesn't matter one bit what platform is deployed. In the REAL WORLD, you sit at your computer and you do your fucking work. You don't futz with shit and break it or IT reports you and you get fired. Maybe its different in Yahoo Texas Steve, but you would think a bunch of gun toting, death penalty express lane law making citizens wouldn't spawn such wishy washy IT departments in their corporate sector :D

If you are able to run willy nilly on your corporate computer, your IT department sucks. The little shit monsters and booger machines can't even change the fucking wall paper on my networks, be they Novell, Mac or Windows :p Its launch App, do work and STFU. Kinda like what your mods do, anyone outta line = bansville. Oh, and for the record, deep discounts you get for yourselves from Dell don't usually translate to Educational purchases for a school...it goes by state contract...significantly more expensive then Dell coupons or personal educational purposes...

[nray]

How did Apple end up where it is at today with 3- 4% marketshare?

Are 95% of the people using PCs just stupid?

Your question is easily answered. People using PCs are not stupid. Apple ended up with 3-4% market share for two simple reasons:

1) How IBM was perceived in the marketplace, followed by how clones of IBM computers were then received and perceived

2) Games

IBM had been in business for decades, had a highly developed sales force into all major businesses, wanted to sell their mainframes, saw personal computers as a minor threat to their mainframe sales, created a low-budget project to create their own personal computers to both take advantage of consumer interest and to promote personal computers as terminals for their mainframes which they saw as the future of 'real' computing. IBM underestimated both the demand for personal computers and what that would be like combined with their brand name. They also didn't look closely enough at the license agreement they had with Microsoft (who had bought a company who made a clone of CP/M for their OS deal with IBM), and later when Compaq reverse-engineered the IBM PC and it's BIOS from the published ISA spec, was sued by IBM, and IBM lost the lawsuit and the doors were opened for legal IBM PC clones, it allowed Microsoft to step up and supply their CP/M clone operating system MS-DOS to other computer makers. The diversification of the PC marketplace, the rise of the mom-and-pop boxbuilders, the trickle-down technology over the years from the workstation market... I could trace it all, but I'll stop this tangent. Point is branding + being in the right place at the right time (i.e. being luck) is the potent combination to win in a marketplace.

Anyone who thinks marketplace winners are marketplace winners because they have the ideal product are deluding themselves (yet it is *such* a common mistake...)

I'll leave the history of games and their importance to computers as an exercise for the reader - I don't have enough time to expound on all that, but it played a very key role.

And of course Apple made a lot of mistakes, with the simplest one being underestimating the importance of games (ironic, since Steve Wozniak had created the hardware specifications of the Apple I around his desire to play the arcade game Breakout, i.e. color, sound, and joystick/paddle controllers).

[nightelfmaster]

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones in my school. In my school, we have a whole mess of Windows, OS X, Debian and Ubuntu. I guess that it does make support kind of hard in my school, but I can say that high schoolers have the ability to pick up anything technologically related. Its also kinda cool that all of our computer science classes use Linux and all the macs are used for graphic arts.

[mdameron]

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones in my school. In my school, we have a whole mess of Windows, OS X, Debian and Ubuntu. I guess that it does make support kind of hard in my school, but I can say that high schoolers have the ability to pick up anything technologically related. Its also kinda cool that all of our computer science classes use Linux and all the macs are used for graphic arts.


I think it would be a GREAT compromise to have a mixture of OS's in public schools. Everything from Macs to popular distro's of linux, to Windows.

Problem is, to have a staff that is versed and can maintain all of the OS's and their apps isn't cheap. It's also not cheap to purchase the Macs and the Windows boxes, and then also home made PC's and throwing linux on there. Since that apparently can't be completed (at least by the schools I've attended), the best way is to either use just Windows, or if financially possible, Windows and Mac.

[dualblade]

I think it would be a GREAT compromise to have a mixture of OS's in public schools. Everything from Macs to popular distro's of linux, to Windows.

Problem is, to have a staff that is versed and can maintain all of the OS's and their apps isn't cheap. It's also not cheap to purchase the Macs and the Windows boxes, and then also home made PC's and throwing linux on there. Since that apparently can't be completed (at least by the schools I've attended), the best way is to either use just Windows, or if financially possible, Windows and Mac.

i think if i was the admin, i wouldn't worry so much about absolute lockdown. i'd put on some security measures, but i'd like kids to tweak a bit. trying to learn and beat a system encourages critical thinking not found in many other classes in school. i'd buy macs, and have a tri-boot with osx, vista, and a linux distro so people could work in whatever environment they liked. every night, systems would receive a ghost image from a main server, so whatever mess kids had made that day would be undone. this also would make it so much easier to do application installs. you'd load the image onto a computer, add the apps you wanted, make a new image, distribute it that night. kids would save all their work on usb disks, so data loss wouldn't be a problem.

[nightelfmaster]

i think if i was the admin, i wouldn't worry so much about absolute lockdown. i'd put on some security measures, but i'd like kids to tweak a bit. trying to learn and beat a system encourages critical thinking not found in many other classes in school. i'd buy macs, and have a tri-boot with osx, vista, and a linux distro so people could work in whatever environment they liked. every night, systems would receive a ghost image from a main server, so whatever mess kids had made that day would be undone. this also would make it so much easier to do application installs. you'd load the image onto a computer, add the apps you wanted, make a new image, distribute it that night. kids would save all their work on usb disks, so data loss wouldn't be a problem.
This is actually what my school does. Our computers in our library have a sort of hardware based imaging system where it doesn't commit any changes forever. On reboot, it reloads from the image and its as good as clean. (from spyware, viruses, etc). It also helps since people can get admin level access without having to worry about messing up the computer.

[mdameron]

i think if i was the admin, i wouldn't worry so much about absolute lockdown. i'd put on some security measures, but i'd like kids to tweak a bit. trying to learn and beat a system encourages critical thinking not found in many other classes in school. i'd buy macs, and have a tri-boot with osx, vista, and a linux distro so people could work in whatever environment they liked. every night, systems would receive a ghost image from a main server, so whatever mess kids had made that day would be undone. this also would make it so much easier to do application installs. you'd load the image onto a computer, add the apps you wanted, make a new image, distribute it that night. kids would save all their work on usb disks, so data loss wouldn't be a problem.

You also bring a good point. I learned more about computers in the time I was living in the dorms bypassing Resnet's security features on P2P'ing/refreshing more than 40 servers/being able to use a router than I did all the time I was computing in high school. :D

Those days are long gone now though... only a man with steel balls is still P2Ping in this day and age, especially at a college!

[/ot]

Windows in school! Kids need to see outside! :p

[Nasty_Savage]

i think if i was the admin, i wouldn't worry so much about absolute lockdown.

liability and lawyers puts an end to that pipe dream.

[dualblade]

liability and lawyers puts an end to that pipe dream.

i'm not so sure about that

students couldn't sabotage other students' work, because each person has their work on their own usb drive. also, just because i'd leave the machines with some degree of flexibility doesn't mean that i would completely lock down the network. i don't want my servers hacked. i wouldn't allow p2p ports, or most ports for that matter. if i completely lock down the network and refresh the operating system and all data each night, what problems do you predict that i would be liable for, and that would require lawyers? i just feel like i'd rather give kids computer experience than an application terminal. they're supposed to be there to learn, and at least in the learning stages, a computer shouldn't be an appliance. when you need to get work done in the workplace and you have sufficient operating system knowledge, that's when you have the ability to simplify your pc into an appliance.

[dualblade]

edit:

doesn't mean that i would completely lock down the network

would should be wouldn't

sorry, but it doesn't seem that we can edit posts in this forum.

[c0ex]

At my high school, all the labs and the library have Windows PCs. The yearbook, journalism and video production class's all have Macs in them. In our cisco class we just got a G5 server + a 2005FPW for a G4 which we traded with the yearbook. Our cisco classroom has about the same amount of macs as windows machines. Also the network is windows xp pro so the admins have limited all the accounts to not be able to change any of the settings aswell as created private folders for each student to store there files on the network.

[Nasty_Savage]

Here's an example.

Kids parents are divorced/custody battle ensues/kid talks to exiled parent via instant messanger or e-mail...BAM, lawsuit.

Kid gets access to proxy server and bypasses internet filter, goes on myspace...stalked by kid toucher/ BAM Lawsuit.

Kid goes hog wild and activates a DHCP server on a linux box and fucks up the network during grading and the student management system can't be accessed, state deadlines get screwed up...BAM loss of state aid.

There's a million and one different scenarios you couldn't even possibly imagine which can turn into lawsuits or damage. Most schools can't afford a loarge IT team so the admin, much like myself has to take care of 700 workstation, 6 servers, network switching, installations of new equipment and security mostly by himself. Lock downs are a necessity, even by law. In New York certain standards need to be met by law...its not an even an option.

[FlatLine84]

I don't see what the big deal is. My computing days started with the Apple IIe in Kindergarten, then evolved into some of the early Macs up until prolly 92 when my parents first bought a PC. I think at that point I had to have been 7 or 8. I remember learning DOS and making boot disks and crap at that age to be able to play Duke Nukem and Doom. Maybe there wasn't a learning curve for me cause they were all new at that age. To me this doesn't seem that difficult....

[dualblade]

You also bring a good point. I learned more about computers in the time I was living in the dorms bypassing Resnet's security features on P2P'ing/refreshing more than 40 servers/being able to use a router than I did all the time I was computing in high school. :D

Those days are long gone now though... only a man with steel balls is still P2Ping in this day and age, especially at a college!

[/ot]

Windows in school! Kids need to see outside! :p

as an admin, i would take this idea a step further. there's nothing geekier sounding than a computer club, and nothing cooler sounding than breaking into somewhere you're not supposed to be. i'd hold challenges, and offer prizes for being able to get past different types of security measures. this sort of thing would get people involved in computer systems who might not ever look at them otherwise. also, by being able to get past basic security measures, it would make people more security conscious for their own systems. i bet you would patch an exploit that you yourself used to get into a system.

all the challenges i'd create would be more proof of concept (put a hello world text file somewhere) as opposed to damage based. you don't have to destroy a system to have fun breaking into it.

if people actually showed interest, i'd love to pit students against each other in a lab - a few people set up a linux firewall/router, a few others try to break it. this is the sort of learning that i never received in high school, and have received basically none of in college. this experience is the sort that not only makes you a good computer person, but makes you a much smarter person in general. logical critical thinking is crucial in the real world, regardless of what career you pick

[dualblade]

Here's an example.

Kids parents are divorced/custody battle ensues/kid talks to exiled parent via instant messanger or e-mail...BAM, lawsuit.

Kid gets access to proxy server and bypasses internet filter, goes on myspace...stalked by kid toucher/ BAM Lawsuit.

Kid goes hog wild and activates a DHCP server on a linux box and fucks up the network during grading and the student management system can't be accessed, state deadlines get screwed up...BAM loss of state aid.

There's a million and one different scenarios you couldn't even possibly imagine which can turn into lawsuits or damage. Most schools can't afford a loarge IT team so the admin, much like myself has to take care of 700 workstation, 6 servers, network switching, installations of new equipment and security mostly by himself. Lock downs are a necessity, even by law. In New York certain standards need to be met by law...its not an even an option.

i do believe that there are a lot of things that could come up, but there are security measures for much of them.

duplicate dhcp server issue: servers on one subnet, teachers on another, students on a third. teachers machines are dhcp, but assigned by mac address from the dhcp server. servers are static ip. not that there aren't plenty of other fixes, but this means that a student can only basically affect the student subnet. by subnetting and creating routes, you can setup a lot more security.

for student subnet, only port 80 and 443 are allowed. http traffic heavily filtered. no email, youtube, myspace. no reason to use a proxy if you can filter via subnetting.

the traditional method in schools (at least that i saw) was to put the security on individual machines. if you put it in the network instead, it allows the kids more freedom, and still keeps everyone safe. a linux router with well set up iptables is good enough to secure most businesses, and i think it would do pretty well in a school setting.

[Paul_Johnson]

I am both upset and thankful for the loss of macs at my old university. Mainly because I did the OSX rollout.

[Nasty_Savage]

i do believe that there are a lot of things that could come up, but there are security measures for much of them.

duplicate dhcp server issue: servers on one subnet, teachers on another, students on a third. teachers machines are dhcp, but assigned by mac address from the dhcp server. servers are static ip. not that there aren't plenty of other fixes, but this means that a student can only basically affect the student subnet. by subnetting and creating routes, you can setup a lot more security.

for student subnet, only port 80 and 443 are allowed. http traffic heavily filtered. no email, youtube, myspace. no reason to use a proxy if you can filter via subnetting.

the traditional method in schools (at least that i saw) was to put the security on individual machines. if you put it in the network instead, it allows the kids more freedom, and still keeps everyone safe. a linux router with well set up iptables is good enough to secure most businesses, and i think it would do pretty well in a school setting.

Its obvious you've never sat in the chair, you'r optimism would be smashed by daily priority changes, implementation of retarded technology that would go to your security budget by tech 'coordinators' as dumb as the one in the article and top that off with aging machines that were not replaced in 7-8 years that are 3 past their scrap date and what you have is less then no time to daydream about how you would manage to sweepingly implement anything other then locking it down tighter then a frog's ass in a pond.

[dualblade]

it's true that i've never been an admin, but i have worked in a school district. none of the computers were older than 4 years old, and the tech director had ultimate say in everything that happened. there was plenty of budget - so much extra that they even started working on this terrible waste of a video conferencing system for administrator meetings (several million dollars). i'm not sure where you've worked, but on long island at least, schools don't have trouble getting budget for technology. basically any software or hardware that they need is provided. the problem is that the teachers are never trained on anything, and no learning software was really used in the classroom after elementary school. also, the tech people (including the admin), were only partially competent, as well as the admin being a completely self centered nazi and just a generally horrible human being. it was obvious that if the tech department had the knowledge in their field and the desire to help those kids learn, money and time was not going to be a problem. this wasn't even some rich private school; it was a minority public school system.

[Axdrenalin]

Let's just say I agree 110% with Apple owners:

PCs and Macs all started out at the same time / same place (roughly)

Microsoft stole the idea for Windows from Apple

Macs are clearly superior to PCs in both hardware and OS

How did Apple end up where it is at today with 3- 4% marketshare?

Are 95% of the people using PCs just stupid?

I'm not a huge Mac fan, but I'm going to say it was marketing that caused the issue. I was big into the Commodore Amiga line of computers when they were out (1985-1994). Especially in the mid 80's, the Amgia was superior to anything that the IBM / Compatible world had to offer, and was even superior to Macs is several areas, but they didn't have the marketing and software support behind them to advance them into the mainstream like the PC / MS Windows camps did.

Betamax or VHS? Who's pushing the most money into the market?

Ax

[Nasty_Savage]

it's true that i've never been an admin, but i have worked in a school district. none of the computers were older than 4 years old, and the tech director had ultimate say in everything that happened. there was plenty of budget - so much extra that they even started working on this terrible waste of a video conferencing system for administrator meetings (several million dollars). i'm not sure where you've worked, but on long island at least, schools don't have trouble getting budget for technology. basically any software or hardware that they need is provided. the problem is that the teachers are never trained on anything, and no learning software was really used in the classroom after elementary school. also, the tech people (including the admin), were only partially competent, as well as the admin being a completely self centered nazi and just a generally horrible human being. it was obvious that if the tech department had the knowledge in their field and the desire to help those kids learn, money and time was not going to be a problem. this wasn't even some rich private school; it was a minority public school system.

Yer kind of lucky then, I have computers still on Windows 98 on GX110's with 64 Megs of Ram, hundreds of them. We're working to get rid of them, but we need a new Mail server and need to replace the switches first. Disk space is always an issue as well. I'm in Suburbia. As for teachers learning how to use the computers...that's give and take...most of them wouldn't pick up a book to save their lives and none really follow the instructions here.

Even if they say they are willing, I find its mostly talk...they want the computers to be toasters and more or less all of them don't go beyond creating word documents, popping in grades and attendance in the Student Management system, and e-mail. Even the computer teachers are lacking, they teach how to make Powerpoint files. Whoopie! I had to teach them how to use network shares and they had to write down the most simplistic of instructions....what's so hard about opening the Share drive and making a folder for your class? This took a half a page of notes by the guy I was explaing it too. I set the permissions, its as easy as 'save as' and drill down to the appropriate folder.

One of these days I'm going to build a George Jetson computer....no keyboard, no mouse...just one big red button in the middle and they'll still complain! :D Computers are just an excuse for people not to do any real work, lol.

[Youri Carma]

Macs are expensive and slow the,ve always been....more marketing than muscle thats why everybody is using the PC and not the Mac today.

Only recently the Macs have been upgraded to compete with the real world PC.

[Nasty_Savage]

There was a performance gap with the tail end of the G4 for sure, which handcuffed Apple for a long time since it lost after scaling eventually trampled it. but again, unless you are doing heavy duty computing/encoding in every classroom the platform should make no difference. This is just clap trap.

[djnes]

Only recently the Macs have been upgraded to compete with the real world PC.
I will give Apple credit, though. They finally did reach the point where performance wise, they couldn't compete...and they did something about it, besides their usual marketing spin. Switching to the Intel hardware platform was the best thing they've done. I hate their new commercials, however, because they portray PCs as being boring calculators.

[GMoney42392]

I hate their new commercials, however, because they portray PCs as being boring calculators.

as ive said before, those commercials make me wanna put my foot through my tv when they come on. my personal "favorite" (as in easiest to make fun of due to inaccuracies):

mac douche: hello, im a mac
pc douche: and im a pc
md: i like doing fun stuff, like photos, music, movies.....
pcd: and i like fun stuff, too, like spreadsheets and word documents

notice the pc never gets to mention how much more game support it has. you walk into an apple store and look at the games on display, the newest one is the sims 2!!!!! sure, fun stuff, right, except for that pesky, ~$6 billion-in-revenue gaming fad thing.

[LoneWolf]

it's true that i've never been an admin, but i have worked in a school district. none of the computers were older than 4 years old, and the tech director had ultimate say in everything that happened. there was plenty of budget - so much extra that they even started working on this terrible waste of a video conferencing system for administrator meetings (several million dollars). i'm not sure where you've worked, but on long island at least, schools don't have trouble getting budget for technology. basically any software or hardware that they need is provided. the problem is that the teachers are never trained on anything, and no learning software was really used in the classroom after elementary school. also, the tech people (including the admin), were only partially competent, as well as the admin being a completely self centered nazi and just a generally horrible human being. it was obvious that if the tech department had the knowledge in their field and the desire to help those kids learn, money and time was not going to be a problem. this wasn't even some rich private school; it was a minority public school system.

If you're in a state with high-dollars-per-student, that's great. I don't know how much money is allocated per student in NY, but I'm guessing it's above the national average. If you're not in such a state, things aren't so rosy.

So far, I've agreed with everything NastySavage said. In my state, the budget is so far down the drain, states are cutting anywhere they can, and that includes school spending. Schools who were lousy with finance are in deep holes; school districts that have had great financial management like where I work are bleeding the money they've managed to save for a rainy day, and for many of them, that money is nearly gone. Enrollment is down because anyone who can put their kids in a private school is doing so (or they're moving to a wealthier suburb with a high-end parent-supported public school district) which takes student enrollment (and therefore money) away from the schools that need it the most, and perpetuating a cycle of failure where only the poorest and/or most troubled students remain in a school. Staff cuts get made due to the lack of money, increasing class sizes and workload. And it's hard to justify spending large amounts of money on new tech programs or teacher tech training when a school district has to look at it in the light of job losses and budget cuts.

Limited budgets mean admins need to make do. 5-6 year computer life cycles are common. Admins start keeping network equipment together with spit, bailing wire, and prayer as ports or even blades in switches fail and out-of-warranty replacements on obsolete hardware balloon in cost. They look to Ebay to find spare parts. And, they do the things that have to be done, rather than the things they'd like to do. Some start becoming reactive rather than proactive (even though they don't want to and hate the thought of it) because being proactive requires money, and it needs to be approved by someone else who might not approve it until disaster actually strikes. Some admins stop focusing on innovating, because innovating costs money that budgetary people can't quantify and likely won't approve, and concentrate on just maintaining what they have. This does vary from district to district, but it can be a very real situation.

In light of all of this, a budget for having a huge multiplatform network often isn't there. Hardware is bought with the plans in mind that it has to last a minimum of five years. Note that it's far easier and cheaper to find out-of-warranty replacement Dell parts on Ebay than it is for Apple; don't even ask what the parts cost direct from Apple, as it's often 2-3 times what new replacement parts cost from Dell (having been Apple Certified Tech, trust me, I know).

We still use Macs for multimedia courses, and they're great for it. But there is a lot more to being an admin for a public school district than meets the eye, and if you haven't been one, chances are you won't know it.

P.S. Savage: We're using GX110's too. Keep the faith; at least they don't die easily. :)

[CopyCat]

as ive said before, those commercials make me wanna put my foot through my tv when they come on. my personal "favorite" (as in easiest to make fun of due to inaccuracies):

mac douche: hello, im a mac
pc douche: and im a pc
md: i like doing fun stuff, like photos, music, movies.....
pcd: and i like fun stuff, too, like spreadsheets and word documents

notice the pc never gets to mention how much more game support it has. you walk into an apple store and look at the games on display, the newest one is the sims 2!!!!! sure, fun stuff, right, except for that pesky, ~$6 billion-in-revenue gaming fad thing.haha so true. On top of that PCs do everything the mac guy mentions and the mac guy can do most of the shit the PC guy mentions (except gaming)...so the commercial is just stupid to begin with.

[theelectic]

notice the pc never gets to mention how much more game support it has. you walk into an apple store and look at the games on display, the newest one is the sims 2!!!!! sure, fun stuff, right, except for that pesky, ~$6 billion-in-revenue gaming fad thing.

And consoles completely kill the PC in terms of game revenue and support. We all know how superior PC gaming is, though the typical kid "gamer" thinks consoles when they think video games. Gaming on a computer, yeah, Macs suck. Gaming in general, both platforms are dwarfed completely by consoles. Again the relatively tech savvy 12-18 year olds I teach constantly talk about XBox this or PS2/3 that. Most don't know what WoW is (good for them).

Besides you shouldn't be playing games in school anyways :)

[GMoney42392]

And consoles completely kill the PC in terms of game revenue and support. We all know how superior PC gaming is, though the typical kid "gamer" thinks consoles when they think video games. Gaming on a computer, yeah, Macs suck. Gaming in general, both platforms are dwarfed completely by consoles. Again the relatively tech savvy 12-18 year olds I teach constantly talk about XBox this or PS2/3 that. Most don't know what WoW is (good for them).

Besides you shouldn't be playing games in school anyways :)

i know exactly what you mean. some idiot here tried to convince me that halo 2 was the best fps EVER, as in bar none. i told him halo 2 wasnt even close, it was half life. he didnt even know what half life was and said "it probaly sucks anyway. HALO 2 FOR LIFE!!1!1!11!!11!1!!1!". now for something on topic: a lot less of the gaming market is made up of kids compared to what it used to be. my cousin, who works with nintendo of america, says that a study they did says that the average gamer is 26. so kiddies can have their consoles, us mature folk have our pcs. i know from the experience of my brother owning a relatively high-end notebook that kids weren't meant to have gaming pcs anyway.

[LoneWolf]

i know exactly what you mean. some idiot here tried to convince me that halo 2 was the best fps EVER, as in bar none. i told him halo 2 wasnt even close, it was half life. he didnt even know what half life was and said "it probaly sucks anyway. HALO 2 FOR LIFE!!1!1!11!!11!1!!1!". now for something on topic: a lot less of the gaming market is made up of kids compared to what it used to be. my cousin, who works with nintendo of america, says that a study they did says that the average gamer is 26. so kiddies can have their consoles, us mature folk have our pcs. i know from the experience of my brother owning a relatively high-end notebook that kids weren't meant to have gaming pcs anyway.

"Now for something on topic"?!?!

The topic is "School Districts Ditching Macs"....what does your post have to do with that?

[GMoney42392]

"Now for something on topic"?!?!

The topic is "School Districts Ditching Macs"....what does your post have to do with that?

yea i saw that when i read it after i posted it. i meant relative to the post i was quoting. MAN it sucks not being able to edit posts here.

[LoneWolf]

yea i saw that when i read it after i posted it. i meant relative to the post i was quoting. MAN it sucks not being able to edit posts here.

I do agree with that editing part. I always look back and think I could have clarified something better (or made one spelling error that ends up ticking me off).

[LOCO LAPTOP]

i say its a good thing/ a bad thing, reason is if they dump apple they go strait to dell with $300 POS pc's... aka P4 2.8, 256mb ram, 80gb hd ,8mb intergraded video card, ect...

I know this because my school did the same thing, these computers are so slow that it takes 15 mins to load up...

[Paul_Johnson]

i say its a good thing/ a bad thing, reason is if they dump apple they go strait to dell with $300 POS pc's... aka P4 2.8, 256mb ram, 80gb hd ,8mb intergraded video card, ect...

I know this because my school did the same thing, these computers are so slow that it takes 15 mins to load up...

Then something is wrong with the configuration and the problem is with your IT department not the Dell. Sorry man....I like to dump on Dell after working with them for so long as much as the next guy but that is an incompetent IT dept problem.

[LoneWolf]

i say its a good thing/ a bad thing, reason is if they dump apple they go strait to dell with $300 POS pc's... aka P4 2.8, 256mb ram, 80gb hd ,8mb intergraded video card, ect...

I know this because my school did the same thing, these computers are so slow that it takes 15 mins to load up...

Then something is wrong with the configuration and the problem is with your IT department not the Dell. Sorry man....I like to dump on Dell after working with them for so long as much as the next guy but that is an incompetent IT dept problem.
Spectre is absolutely right. We're spec-ing Optiplex 745's to replace our Dell GX-110's purchased nearly seven years ago (P3-667's with 256MB of RAM, 10GB hard disks). And Dell is giving us one sweetheart of a deal, too --imagine a Core2 Duo E6400 system, 2GB of RAM, 160GB hard disk, DVD burner, dual-display vidcard with 256MB of RAM, and a 19" flat panel, in the neighborhood of $1200 per system, with three year warranties included. The systems also have Intel VPro technology embedded --this allows for remote control, remote power-on/power-off, and asset management, right through the system, even if the systems are turned off. There is no way I'd get this kind of deal from Apple on iMacs with a similar configuration.

We buy reasonably high-end, because we need the systems to last another 5-7 years and we know it. Cheaping out will screw over everyone, and that includes those of us who need to work on it and make software function for others.

Actually, I'd add one point on to Spectre's. It's either an incompetent IT department, an incompetent accounting department that doesn't understand long-term planning and only looks at cutting costs to the bone, or an extremely limited budget can cause this. A smart school will use their budget (or millage/bond issue money if such is passed by the voters) if at all possible to purchase a unit that is approximately 20% more powerful than they really need, since by the time they get rid of them, it will likely be just barely meeting their current needs at that point. If an IT department and a district's finance department aren't on the same page, you could wind up in this situation.

Or, if you're in a cash-strapped school district, and suddenly faced with the need for new machines, your IT dept. may be told "Buy xx machines, but they have to be lexx than xx dollars". Even if you feel it doesn't meet the real needs of users, or won't for long, you may not be allowed to override that decision. When your hands are tied by the amount of funds available, all you can do is buy the best you can afford. By bidding out, you can lower that price some or get more features for the same price; most schools are required by their state to bid out anything that costs more than a certain amount, and a minimum number of bids is required. I'm fortunate not to be in this situation myself, but others have been.

[Nasty_Savage]

If you're in a state with high-dollars-per-student, that's great. I don't know how much money is allocated per student in NY, but I'm guessing it's above the national average. If you're not in such a state, things aren't so rosy.

So far, I've agreed with everything NastySavage said. In my state, the budget is so far down the drain, states are cutting anywhere they can, and that includes school spending. Schools who were lousy with finance are in deep holes; school districts that have had great financial management like where I work are bleeding the money they've managed to save for a rainy day, and for many of them, that money is nearly gone. Enrollment is down because anyone who can put their kids in a private school is doing so (or they're moving to a wealthier suburb with a high-end parent-supported public school district) which takes student enrollment (and therefore money) away from the schools that need it the most, and perpetuating a cycle of failure where only the poorest and/or most troubled students remain in a school. Staff cuts get made due to the lack of money, increasing class sizes and workload. And it's hard to justify spending large amounts of money on new tech programs or teacher tech training when a school district has to look at it in the light of job losses and budget cuts.

Limited budgets mean admins need to make do. 5-6 year computer life cycles are common. Admins start keeping network equipment together with spit, bailing wire, and prayer as ports or even blades in switches fail and out-of-warranty replacements on obsolete hardware balloon in cost. They look to Ebay to find spare parts. And, they do the things that have to be done, rather than the things they'd like to do. Some start becoming reactive rather than proactive (even though they don't want to and hate the thought of it) because being proactive requires money, and it needs to be approved by someone else who might not approve it until disaster actually strikes. Some admins stop focusing on innovating, because innovating costs money that budgetary people can't quantify and likely won't approve, and concentrate on just maintaining what they have. This does vary from district to district, but it can be a very real situation.

In light of all of this, a budget for having a huge multiplatform network often isn't there. Hardware is bought with the plans in mind that it has to last a minimum of five years. Note that it's far easier and cheaper to find out-of-warranty replacement Dell parts on Ebay than it is for Apple; don't even ask what the parts cost direct from Apple, as it's often 2-3 times what new replacement parts cost from Dell (having been Apple Certified Tech, trust me, I know).

We still use Macs for multimedia courses, and they're great for it. But there is a lot more to being an admin for a public school district than meets the eye, and if you haven't been one, chances are you won't know it.

P.S. Savage: We're using GX110's too. Keep the faith; at least they don't die easily. :)


I gotta admit, their fairly hearty machines. My counterpart in the highschool maxed out the ram at 256 and stuffed XP in them. I just stuck to 98 as I found the preformance to be completely unacceptable. But its getting to the point where the 98 is just not gonna do the trick anymore. The tech coordinator is working hard core to replace the computers with the help of state aid (using my organization gives them 75% refund by the State). But this place was so neglected when we took it over a year and a half ago, we inherited an almost biblical disaster. Things are settling down though after I ripped it apart and put it together the RIGHT way :)

[LoneWolf]

I gotta admit, their fairly hearty machines. My counterpart in the highschool maxed out the ram at 256 and stuffed XP in them. I just stuck to 98 as I found the preformance to be completely unacceptable. But its getting to the point where the 98 is just not gonna do the trick anymore. The tech coordinator is working hard core to replace the computers with the help of state aid (using my organization gives them 75% refund by the State). But this place was so neglected when we took it over a year and a half ago, we inherited an almost biblical disaster. Things are settling down though after I ripped it apart and put it together the RIGHT way :)We're running XP on ours. Turn off the Luna (we call it the "Looney") interface and all fancy graphical features, turn off some services you'll never use, turn off the Indexing Service so the hard disk doesn't get thrashed, and you do all right. Windows 2000 works all right too, though I actually think that tweaked properly, XP is about the same in performance. Either way, getting group policy support (paired with an Active Directory domain) is worth the price of upgrade from 98 alone (the only way I can think 98 works for you is if you're using Novell).

[DeathFromBelow]

I don't see why it matters. We only had macs when I was in elementary school, but we only used two applications: a typing tutor program and some math game. Waste of money and electricity if you ask me.

My high school had a library and writing lab with old PCs, and the art class had a few macs.

School computers are used for typing and internet "research" (copy and pasting) 99% of the time; it really doesn't matter what hardware they use.

[Nemesis999]

When it comes right down to it, there is no reason for students to be learning on Apple PCs.

Cost: Apples cost more. The cheapest one on their website seems to be the $600 mac mini, which doesn't even include a monitor. Why would ANYONE on heavily restricted budget, buying hundreds or thousands of computers pay that when somewhere like Dell offers system with similar specs for 70%-80% of that price?

Usefullness: School is about preparing students for either further education, or the real world. Where in the real world, right out of high school, are you going to use a Mac? Nowhere, unless you happen to be an administrative assistant for a graphics designer. If you're going on to post-secondary education in which macs are used, such as graphics or video, you will be taught everything you need to know.

Don't punish the other 98% of the population to save the graphics people the slight learning curve in their post-secondary education.

Replacment Cycle: What happens 4-5 years later when you start losing a lot of computers. Where do you go for parts? Apple? They'll gouge you to death, gaurenteed. Again, limited budget, why use something that you will not be able to repair at a reasonable price?

99.9% of jobs right out of high-school that require some kind of interaction with a computer will not be running an Apple OS, why would we, as a country, dish out millions of dollars a year to cater to those .1%?

[mdameron]

99.9% of jobs right out of high-school that require some kind of interaction with a computer will not be running an Apple OS, why would we, as a country, dish out millions of dollars a year to cater to those .1%?



Ask the liberals. :p

I totally just soapbox'd a news thread. I'm going to hell.


In all honesty and seriousness, I QFT the rest of your post.

[w1retap]

When it comes right down to it, there is no reason for students to be learning on Apple PCs.

Cost: Apples cost more. The cheapest one on their website seems to be the $600 mac mini, which doesn't even include a monitor. Why would ANYONE on heavily restricted budget, buying hundreds or thousands of computers pay that when somewhere like Dell offers system with similar specs for 70%-80% of that price?

Usefullness: School is about preparing students for either further education, or the real world. Where in the real world, right out of high school, are you going to use a Mac? Nowhere, unless you happen to be an administrative assistant for a graphics designer. If you're going on to post-secondary education in which macs are used, such as graphics or video, you will be taught everything you need to know.

Don't punish the other 98% of the population to save the graphics people the slight learning curve in their post-secondary education.

Replacment Cycle: What happens 4-5 years later when you start losing a lot of computers. Where do you go for parts? Apple? They'll gouge you to death, gaurenteed. Again, limited budget, why use something that you will not be able to repair at a reasonable price?

99.9% of jobs right out of high-school that require some kind of interaction with a computer will not be running an Apple OS, why would we, as a country, dish out millions of dollars a year to cater to those .1%?
Exactly. Except, even now, most of the television studios and graphics design studios are switching over to PC environments due to cheaper prices, more 3rd party pc-only compatible parts, wider knowledge base for your new employees so you don't have to spend time/money training them, etc.

[shadowwyvern]

The all-in-one imac design makes them more vulnerable to vandalism too. In our HS library, there is a 17" LCD imac, and I am amazed the thing is still alive. Our school should be using thin clients, or machines in locked cabinets, but insist on buying these expensive macs. Then again, somebody killed one of the unsecured non-macs by putting carpet inside the case, so maybe the glued together mac cases offer some protection.

[MScrip]

I don't wanna sound old... but I graduated high school in 1995, and our library had 4 Mac LC IIs and a PC lab full of 286s running DOS. And a few other computers in yearbook, drafting, etc.

Before that, in middle school, a trip to the Apple IIe lab to play Oregon Trail was a special treat.

What do kids in high school do on computers today? Are their computers in every classroom, or do they just go to labs once in a while to do research?

When I hear about schools banning MySpace and such... thinking back to my high school days, I can't think of any free time in school to do any recreational stuff on computers.

So, what do high schoolers do on computers today?

[DeathFromBelow]

Mostly the same. Occasional trips to the writing lab to write and research. Some classes (art/yearbook) use them for other things. I believe that all teachers in Oklahoma have a classroom computer, as all attendance/grade records are required to be digital now.

My high school Air Force JROTC unit had an awesome computer lab with 12 modern systems and wi-fi available to students during lunch and after school. We raised money and put it together ourselves. Good times.

[Draax]

Schools ditching MACs is just good sense. Kids learning on a MAC computer, which represents a very small minority of workplace computers in the real world, is foolish.

[LoneWolf]

I don't wanna sound old... but I graduated high school in 1995, and our library had 4 Mac LC IIs and a PC lab full of 286s running DOS. And a few other computers in yearbook, drafting, etc.

Before that, in middle school, a trip to the Apple IIe lab to play Oregon Trail was a special treat.

What do kids in high school do on computers today? Are their computers in every classroom, or do they just go to labs once in a while to do research?

When I hear about schools banning MySpace and such... thinking back to my high school days, I can't think of any free time in school to do any recreational stuff on computers.

So, what do high schoolers do on computers today?
Many states mandate that attendance must be processed electronically these days. So every teacher has a computer that has grading/attendance software in their classroom. Some of them do let students use these computers, though at higher levels of K-12 it is discouraged for security reasons.

Most schools also have a computer lab, so that a class can go there, do research for a project, have in-school time to type up a paper (not all families have a computer yet, even in this day and age, so providing some time is necessary), or work with curriculum-based software that teaches reading, typing, mathematics, etc. Some schools have additional computers in their library for this same purpose.

At the high-school level, students don't always use their time wisely. This means trying to visit gaming sites when they should be working on a paper, or going to MySpace. MySpace also has additional issues besides the "non-academic" time wasting ones. There have been several Amber Alerts in my state in the past two years resulting from a gullible teenager being lured in by someone through MySpace and kidnapped, or of questionable photos/videos of a teen being posted by an acquaintance (one such video led to criminal charges for the poster, and attempted suicide by one of the subjects of the video). Teens don't like it, but the block isn't coming off. Also, it can be difficult to supervise a lab of 30 students with just one teacher. If one has a problem, it can mean another one or two have time to be doing things they shouldn't be doing while the teacher is helping the first.

[Night Black]

Many states mandate that attendance must be processed electronically these days. So every teacher has a computer that has grading/attendance software in their classroom. Some of them do let students use these computers, though at higher levels of K-12 it is discouraged for security reasons.

Most schools also have a computer lab, so that a class can go there, do research for a project, have in-school time to type up a paper (not all families have a computer yet, even in this day and age, so providing some time is necessary), or work with curriculum-based software that teaches reading, typing, mathematics, etc. Some schools have additional computers in their library for this same purpose.

At the high-school level, students don't always use their time wisely. This means trying to visit gaming sites when they should be working on a paper, or going to MySpace. MySpace also has additional issues besides the "non-academic" time wasting ones. There have been several Amber Alerts in my state in the past two years resulting from a gullible teenager being lured in by someone through MySpace and kidnapped, or of questionable photos/videos of a teen being posted by an acquaintance (one such video led to criminal charges for the poster, and attempted suicide by one of the subjects of the video). Teens don't like it, but the block isn't coming off. Also, it can be difficult to supervise a lab of 30 students with just one teacher. If one has a problem, it can mean another one or two have time to be doing things they shouldn't be doing while the teacher is helping the first.

Yep, and the students also have the free time to vandalize the computers. For example, I sat down at a Dell that was about 2 months old. The CD drive was broken. The Dell metal plate was gone. The mouse was very sticky. The case was popped open. Heck, for some reason, there's frigging porn on everyone of them. :mad: As far as I know, teh teachers are off chitchatting or whatever, cause in my class anything never gets done on computers.

[Nasty_Savage]

Schools ditching MACs is just good sense. Kids learning on a MAC computer, which represents a very small minority of workplace computers in the real world, is foolish.

By the time they hit the workplace, the Operating Systems could be different anyway. Vista is fairly different then XP in the way the file system is organized, and light years from NT4/Windows 98 where many schools still have them in place. Your argument is what is foolish. Same platform, same software company, different operating system layout. No logic whatsover in ditching a Mac for a PC unless the entire curriculum designed to churn out IT specialists.

[mdameron]

By the time they hit the workplace, the Operating Systems could be different anyway. Vista is fairly different then XP in the way the file system is organized, and light years from NT4/Windows 98 where many schools still have them in place. Your argument is what is foolish. Same platform, same software company, different operating system layout. No logic whatsover in ditching a Mac for a PC unless the entire curriculum designed to churn out IT specialists.

HAH

Believe you me, IT specialists aren't the only industry using Winders... LOL at your last sentence!!!

Not to mention, here at university, we're STILL on windows 2k. You think high school should give a damn about what MS is on its way out with? Windows is the OS to learn. Vista or not. Anyone with experience in XP or 2k is going to handle Vista just fine, maybe 2 weeks of tooling around with it and you're back to your level of skill with XP.

[Nemesis999]

By the time they hit the workplace, the Operating Systems could be different anyway. Vista is fairly different then XP in the way the file system is organized, and light years from NT4/Windows 98 where many schools still have them in place. Your argument is what is foolish. Same platform, same software company, different operating system layout. No logic whatsover in ditching a Mac for a PC unless the entire curriculum designed to churn out IT specialists.

I spent the summer working at an insurance company that employes 58,000 people worldwide. Guess how many have a PC at their desk? About 58,000 of them. EVERYONE uses a windows PC. The sales people are on a Windows, the tech support is on Windows, the managment is on Windows, the administrative assistants are on Windows. EVERYONE.

Guess how many Macs there are? Somewhere in the area of 0.

In the real world Macs are a novelty item. A few people have them, but they're they only ones that care. Everyone else uses Windows. If you think IT specialists are the only ones using computers you're still stuck back in the 80's. 99% of people that have a desk, have a Windows PC. Hell, I was a summer student and I had 3 PCs and a laptop.

If you're going to force people to use Mac OS you might as well have them use Linux and get something just as useful without the cost.