pagefile, to be or not to be. long reading (users with >1GB RAM)

[condac]

Before you read check the folowing steps:
1. Do you know what a pagefile or swapfile is? If answer is no read the this thread.
2. Do you have a pagefile activated? If answer is no then you can leave this thread and live happy! If answer is yes then read this thread!
For short version jump to the :confused: symbol later down.

It is time to share some of the best memory tweeking tips I can give you all. It have its beginning in the bad codes of windows, a well used and strange programed os. A mix of 1997 and 2005 and all that is between. And from a man that said 640Kb RAM is more than we will EVER need. Well what is the tips then? Lets get to the point!

The Pagefile (or the Swapfile). Have you played a game for hours that need plenty of ram? Doom3, Halflife2 or even a game that don't need plenty of ram. And suddenly you get tired of playing and hit Alt-F4 The game is closed and you see your windows, well almost. The wallpaper is slowly being updated all open windows don't show anything but crap and you harddrive sound like it choked on a bag of nails, and it takes about 2m before you harddrive finaly calm down and your wallpaper and windows are showing normaly and you have maximum performance. If you are a more experienced computer user you know that this is because the system have put you least used files in the pagefile and it takes some time before it have loaded all back to the ram.

But is this realy necessary? Well, no it isn't, and yes some times it is. Windows is a strange system. It think like this:
hmm I have some memory that is fast and some slow i want all program that I'm using at the moment to be in the fast memory, so I move the latest used program to the slow to make room for new programs.
This is good thinking, if you have less ram than your programs need. But in todays system when you have one or two gigs of ram this is bad thinking from the system. The realy big thing is if you have 4GB ram or lets say 10GB and you open a game or program that need about 200mb ram the system will still move your unused programs to the pagefile on your harddrive just in case you need more fast memory later on, well do you? The big thing is that the system don't look how much memory you have, it only know that the best results are if you have the most used programs in the ram and the others in the pagefile so it puts 50% of your programs in the pagefile. But if you can fit all your programs in you ram you don't need to put it in the pagefile. But the system don't know that. It whant a certain types of programs in the ram and some other programs in the pagefile incase you open a new program thet need lots of fast ram. Well it's not going to hapend in this case. So it is totaly useless and only takes extra delay times in you system and you have to sit and wait for the system to load all stuff back from the harddrive. If you have many background programs you will notice this bad memory handling more than if you have a new installed windows.

:confused:
Can you fill all your ram with the programs that you use on a normal day? Time to find out!
Open your task manager and leave it open when you play you games and use all your programs that you normaly do.
Look at the graph under the cpu usage. This is your Page file history showing the real amount of memory you actualy are using for programs. If this is growing bigger than your total ram when you do you do your normal computer use then you can forget this thread because it cant help you to get better performance in your computer because you use more than your ram can handle and you need to use the harddrive. But if you is nowhere near to get that graph over your total ram amount, then you can remove the pagefile and you will notice that your system will never use the harddrive as ram anymore.
This will result in smoother switching between open programs. You can alt-tab in the middle of a game and check out the hardforum for new [H] tips and answer your friends desperate call for help in your irc program and then switch back to your game in just a second.
It will all work fine until that day when you max out your memory and your program need more memory and it don't get any. What hapen then you might ask? If you have about 512mb of ram you can easy try it for yourself and find out. But to give you the short version, your programs WILL die. If your memory is full the first program to ask for more memory will get killed. And you unsaved data will disapear!
If you have no pagefile windows will complain when you use lots of ram, it will say "your virual memory is full.. blablabla" but when it do check your task manager is the graph near to get maxed out or have it maxed already? If it have maxed then you need pagefile. If it have not then just ignore it.

So what is the point of this thread? Well, remove your page file and you will never put it back. I will buy an extra gig before I put it back.
So is this old news?? have you allso run your windows without pagefile for over 2 years now? Or have you bought more and more ram every time you hear the harddrive swaping your programs? Send feedback please!

[Bigjohns97]

I just had to start using pagefile again when bf2 came out.

I am in the process of building a new pc so i don't have to.

[Phoenix86]

NT based systems handle this function differently than Win9X. The page file is more than just a swapfile (thus the name difference between the two cores), it also handles system/file caching.

Read me. (http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/windows2000serv/maintain/optimize/wperfch7.mspx)

I just had to start using pagefile again when bf2 came out.

I am in the process of building a new pc so i don't have to.
Time for the 2GB standard gaming rig.

[S1nF1xx]

Apparently the threads that have Sticky in front of them aren't obvious enough for the most dense of people here.

[Phoenix86]

Apparently the threads that have Sticky in front of them aren't obvious enough for the most dense of people here.
To be fair, I stayed away from the sans PF discussion in the sticky

[condac]

NT based systems handle this function differently than Win9X. The page file is more than just a swapfile (thus the name difference between the two cores), it also handles system/file caching.

I'm not talking about win9x here, that is a totaly diffrent memory manegement. I'm just trying to make people rethink about the use of pagefile. For a normal 1.5-4GB user the page file is just useless unless you do some realy crazy memory demanding program.
The pagefile usage is in my opinion bad coded and should only be used when it is neccesary, not "just in case I need more ram".

[Phoenix86]

I'm not talking about win9x here, that is a totaly diffrent memory manegement. I'm just trying to make people rethink about the use of pagefile. For a normal 1.5-4GB user the page file is just useless unless you do some realy crazy memory demanding program.
The pagefile usage is in my opinion bad coded and should only be used when it is neccesary, not "just in case I need more ram".
If you aren't talking W9x, why are you treating XP like it's W9x?
Your logic follows W9x tweaking, you even called it a swap file, which it isn't. Paging != swapping.
Paging vs. swapping. (http://www.rojakpot.com/default.aspx?location=3&var1=143&var2=1)

If you have enough RAM the PF won't be used much at all, so disabling it provides no benefits.

Have you measured PF usage on a system with enough RAM?
Did you test your tweak?
What did it improve?

[xdkimx]

i have 1gb of ram on this laptop and i use to think having pagefile off would increase performance as well.. but i noticed that if i leave it on i actually get a slightly higher 3dmark03 score

[KoolDrew]

You should never remove the pagefile. Do you honestly think you are disabling paging when doing so? No any exe and dll are also involved with paging. So all you are doing by disabling the pagefile is causing MORE paging of code, for a given workload and RAM size. it also means paging canno tbe correctly balanced between mapped files, code, file cache and prvate data. So this would be a bad thing in the long run.

Just stop reading tweaking guides where the author has no idea what he is talking about and gives stupid advice.

The pagefile usage is in my opinion bad coded and should only be used when it is neccesary

No offence, but it is obvious you don't even know how windows manages memory, so how can you say it is badly coded?

Paging vs. swapping. (http://www.rojakpot.com/default.aspx?location=3&var1=143&var2=1)

While the page you linked to is fine that guide is a little misguiding in some areas. Just wanted to mention that so people don't take everything in that guide seriously.

[ktwebb]

Correct disabling paging in XP, 2000, or 2003 is a bad idea. At least in XP some components need the page file to function. Disabling provides no discernible performance upgrade.

[Phoenix86]

While the page you linked to is fine that guide is a little misguiding in some areas. Just wanted to mention that so people don't take everything in that guide seriously.
Show me a VMM guide that is 100% correct. That one will at least give the OP a better understanding of paging vs. swapping.

[KoolDrew]

Show me a VMM guide that is 100% correct. That one will at least give the OP a better understanding of paging vs. swapping.

Right now I know of no online guide that is 100% correct. If I find one I will post it.

[Ranma_Sao]

Inside Windows 2000 by Microsoft Press.

Oh, and I strongly disagree with the OP. I personally belive turning the pagefile off for any reason is silly. But I belive my opinions on pagefile's have been stated many times before.


(The only reason I kinda understand is security, but if they pulled the hdd, your owned anyway)

[Phoenix86]

Inside Windows 2000 by Microsoft Press.
Online?

edit: Most people couldn't find their way to a library these days if their life depended on it. Plus it's kinda hard to link to a book. ;)

edit2: I'm assuming the point is to dispell the numerous myths about VMM, so it's for other people, not necessarly the OP.

[Ranma_Sao]

Online?
Nope. :( But if the OP want's to learn about how it works, I've seen it for 10 bucks in used book stores.

[Phoenix86]

See edit 2. ;)

[KoolDrew]

Inside Windows 2000 is a great book. I own it myself and I have mentioned it before. That is probably the best source and much better then anything online. So for anybody really interested in that kind of stuff that is THE book to get.

[condac]

At least in XP some components need the page file to function.
Well that's wrong, if it's not tell me what program you have that need a page file. I have never in my 2 years without a pagefile found a program thats not working.

If you have enough RAM the PF won't be used much at all, so disabling it provides no benefits.
Well have you even tried to deactivate it?? And as you say your self "the PF won't be used much at all", why should it be used when it is not needed if you have 2000GB RAM why should you use the harddrive, because that is what windows is doing?? The harddrive is only an extention of the ram and sould not be used as a ram. If you must have this extra space and not having it in the ram, why not put it in a diffrent addresed area in the ram instead?

And for all you that have tested to disable the page file. How many programs did you have open at the time? if you tested on an new isntalled windows you might not noticed anything, but if you have 40-60 open processes you will notice the diffrent.

Well I'm of to continue using my xp without page files. And if you have 2gig ram and you page file on you have wasted your money and can send your ram to someone that needs it.

The reason I mentioned swapfile in my post was for the more unknowing people that might not heard of the term page file, in my country when they have translated windows they didn't translate swapfile in the old 9x but when xp came they had translated page file to växlingsfil witch is a direct translation of swapfile.

[condac]

i have 1gb of ram on this laptop and i use to think having pagefile off would increase performance as well.. but i noticed that if i leave it on i actually get a slightly higher 3dmark03 score
I have never said you get higher fps. But loading times and quit to windows times are quicker. But only if you have had the program on for some time, 3dmark is not running long enough for windows to start paging you background programs.

But one reason you might higher 3dmark score with page file on is probably because you had some program in the background using cpu. But I'm not saying that as a fact.

[Pulsar]

I have 2gb of RAM and besides some games, I also run apps like photoshop that needs a page file to function without a hitch. Believe me, work on a VERY large image file and that 2gb goes REALLY quick. So saying that us with 2gb and a page file just wasted our money is pretty ignorant.

[Fark_Maniac]

condac, I was going to stay out of this thread...but I feel compelled to argue both sides of the fence.

Yes, I've been running without a pagefile for about a year and a half up to about a month ago...when BF2 came out and I had to enable it again. I swore up and down that disabling the page file was the way to go. The machine just seemed to respond faster with it disabled. I have noticed only one improvement. That would be the load times for Battlefield 1942/2. With the pagefile disabled, it would take a bit longer to load maps. I've noticed that I have studdering at times when the HD is doing pagefile work. I'd get more memory, but I'm looking to upgrade soon...so I'm holding out for now.

Now, I have also done tests (something like Winstone/Winbench) where it comes with some bastardized version of Office with a bunch of email. The idea was to work with lots of little files and be doing a lot of processing of files that eats up memory. I tested it with 1GB PF, 512MB PF, and no PF. It made no difference.

A lot of people run around with blinders on their heads..and they run around on both sides of the fence. A good number of the times, they are looking out for the good of the many. However I believe that a lot of people have either forgotten or haven't experienced what this place was like when someone wanted to try something crazy. So take everything you read here with a grain of salt. There is a use for everything...the only problem is, you have to determine for yourself if it is useful for yourself.

So between my narrowly focused experience with gaming usage and my tests run on the system tests. It depends what you are doing. If you have a machine that is only for gaming, the only improvement you'll get is the loading of files/maps...nothing else. If you are using it for everyday general tasks...it makes no difference which way you go...really.

Edit: I found the post, but I must have deleted the images of the test results...dam
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1026516321&postcount=127

[condac]

I have 2gb of RAM and besides some games, I also run apps like photoshop that needs a page file to function without a hitch. Believe me, work on a VERY large image file and that 2gb goes REALLY quick. So saying that us with 2gb and a page file just wasted our money is pretty ignorant.

If you are using photoshop I know that you can fill up you ram very quick. And if you use photoshop in a way that fill up over 2 gig, it's not waste of money if you have 4 gig ram and still have your page file.
But still the program doesn't need a page file to work. but if I'm doing some stuff in photoshop and see/or know that the ram is close to max I will activate the page file.
When I'm running 3dsmax I always have atleast 2 3dsmax open at the same time, one for rendering and one for modeling. And that need ram, but if you know what you are doing you always think one step ahead. So i don't create a array of 10000 high poly count objects before I know my ram (with or without page file) can handle it. So sometimes , or many times with my old 1gig ram, when I run 3dsmax I have my page file.
But when I play my BF2 and have my torrent, ftp, irc, winamp, antivirussw, firewalls, firefox and dc++ in the background I will never have my page file on.

So this thread have gone in the wrong direction, it was started as a wakeup call to give you a tips how to get that extra perfomance in your system, and clearly some people don't want it, but not all people want to overclock or put the dremel trough the motherboard if it will give you extra performance. Some people live on the edge and some just stay on the ground.

[KoolDrew]

Well that's wrong, if it's not tell me what program you have that need a page file. I have never in my 2 years without a pagefile found a program thats not working.

Applications that create what are called "pagefile backed sections" will not work without a pagefile.

Well have you even tried to deactivate it?? And as you say your self "the PF won't be used much at all", why should it be used when it is not needed if you have 2000GB RAM why should you use the harddrive, because that is what windows is doing?? The harddrive is only an extention of the ram and sould not be used as a ram. If you must have this extra space and not having it in the ram, why not put it in a diffrent addresed area in the ram instead?

It is needed. Also as I already said the pagefile is NOT the only file involved with paging. So you are still using the HDD.

Well I'm of to continue using my xp without page files. And if you have 2gig ram and you page file on you have wasted your money and can send your ram to someone that needs it.

Sure go ahead. You can continue wasting your RAM by keeping private data in it that otherwise would of been paged out to give room for other things that actually need it.

So this thread have gone in the wrong direction, it was started as a wakeup call to give you a tips how to get that extra perfomance in your system, and clearly some people don't want it

That is because we know better.

[condac]

Sure go ahead. You can continue wasting your RAM by keeping private data in it that otherwise would of been paged out to give room for other things that actually need it.
private data??

And as I said before why move your data to give room for "other data" when the "other data" can fit without problem and still have plenty of ram free.

And it is clearly that you never had tested to disable you page file.

My tips for you if you realy want a page file and you run programs that only need 1 gig ram buy 2 gig ram and make a ramdisk out of 1 gig and put you page file on it.

But this is still a tips how to get that extra perfomance in your system, and clearly some people still don't want it. If you have a tips that give you lightningfast task switching on a 2gig ram system with programs only using 1.5 gig at a peak, without having to wait on the delay calls the harddrive is creating, please tell me about it.

[condac]

We shall be lucky that linux is growing bigger and there we have no "make room in case of.." in the memory management. My swap partition on my laptop is still unused and I like it.

[Phoenix86]

If you have enough RAM the PF won't be used much at all, so disabling it provides no benefits.
Well have you even tried to deactivate it??
Yes I have. I have run sans PF for years because I though like you at one point. I learned better.

And as you say your self "the PF won't be used much at all", why should it be used when it is not needed if you have 2000GB RAM why should you use the harddrive, because that is what windows is doing??
You're missing the point. The PF isn't going to be used to page from RAM to disk because there is enough space in RAM for all active programs. However, the PF has other uses such as system cache.

I answered your assumption about me never running sans PF, now, did you bother to read the links I posted? Due to your posts, I'll assume the answer is no.

Read the links I posted Here's the first paragraph of the first link. Don't get too hung up on the fact this doc refers to W2K Server.
The built-in Windows 2000 file cache is essential to the performance of Windows 2000 file servers. It is also an important factor in the performance of Microsoft Internet Information Server (IIS) as well as many other applications. The file cache is a specific, reserved area of virtual storage in the range of system memory addresses, as discussed in Chapter 6. As the name implies, it operates on files, or, more specifically, sections of files. When file sections are referenced, they are mapped into this area of virtual memory by the Cache Manager. This mapping occurs transparently to the application that is trying to read or write the file in question. (The everyday meaning of the word cache refers to it being a hidden storehouse. Caching functions are hidden from the applications.) The memory used for the file cache is managed just like any other area of real memory allocated within the system working set, subject to the same Windows 2000 virtual memory management page replacement policy discussed in the previous chapter. Frequently referenced files tend to remain in cache memory automatically, so no external tuning parameters need to be set to initiate caching under Windows 2000 on either Professional and Server.


The harddrive is only an extention of the ram and sould not be used as a ram. If you must have this extra space and not having it in the ram, why not put it in a diffrent addresed area in the ram instead?
The page file is mostly used as an extension of RAM, but there are other functions of it as well. When discussing all the uses of the PF (necessary when talking about disabling it), it's an over-simplified view. See above links.

Here's an interesting quote from another thread (where I also recommending disabling the PF, about a year ago)

Don't delete the pagefile, it's silly. Putting the pagefile onto a ramdisk is also silly.
...But it's your computer, do whatever you want.

Here's another good link where a poster made the same claims, read this as well.
Read me. (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=871090)

[BillLeeLee]

Okay, I generally like to stay out of page file discussions since people here are really Pro-PF or Anti-PF, but...I'm bored. :p

Running with no Paging File is not a way to go, because, as KoolDrew and others have said, the system still does page, and it's not just apps paging. But since there's no page file, Windows uses physical memory for its page file backed section, as this section of Inside Windows 2000 says:

This fundamental primitive in the memory manager is used to map virtual addresses, whether in main memory, in the page file, or in some other file that an application wants to access as if it were in memory. A section can be opened by one process or by many; in other words, section objects don't necessarily equate to shared memory.

A section object can be connected to an open file on disk (called a mapped file) or to committed memory (to provide shared memory). Sections mapped to committed memory are called page file backed sections because the pages can be written to the paging file if memory demands dictate. (Because Windows 2000 can run with no paging file, page file backed sections might in fact be "backed" only by physical memory). As with private committed pages, shared committed pages are always zero-filled when they are first accessed.

So of course, you're still paging, but without a page file set on your hard disks, you're paging to memory! So your paging pool exists in physical memory. If you try to open even more memory hungry apps, you will be blocked due to the private pool existing in memory.

Or, how about this?

If you have plenty of physical memory installed in your computer, you might be tempted to completely disable your page file. Don’t do it! By design, Windows XP requires a page file for a number of core functions, and several third-party programs will cause out-of-memory errors if you try to get rid of all virtual memory. Remember, Windows doesn’t actually use the page file until it’s needed, so you won’t gain any performance advantage by tweaking your system in this fashion.

So look at it this way - if a system really has enough memory, then everything is kept inside memory. When necessary, it will then page files out of memory to the paging file to make space in RAM for other files. But if you have enough memory to support every single app you're doing, then Windows doesn't do this (since of course, everything can be kept in memory).

So what happens when it can't do this? It creates the reserved page filed backend section in physical RAM and boom, files are removed from physical memory to make space for other things. Where do those files go? The abyss.

And just to reiterate:
The system cache doesn't have its own working set but rather shares a single system set that includes cache data, paged pool, pageable Ntoskrnl code, and pageable driver code. As explained in the section

So the cache, and kernel and device drivers all will page. But this won't be needed if, as has been stated, you have the memory to keep them in physical RAM.

So why disable the PF? If your system doesn't need to page, it won't.

[Phoenix86]

KoolDrew is being slow but here's some other links to read.

Virtual Memory. (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dngenlib/html/msdn_virtmm.asp)
Memory-mapped Files. (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dngenlib/html/msdn_manamemo.asp)
Caching. (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/fs/file_caching.asp)

[Fark_Maniac]

this is a genuine question...not intended to troll.

If disabling the page file is considered something not to be done, then why did they change the options for adjusting the page file?

A bit clearer, in 2000, It complained that you can't have a page file of min/max of 0/0...so if you didn't want hardly a page file, you'd do a 2/2MB. However, they changed that in XP and gave the option to disable it completely. There must have been a reason for such a decision. I'm honestly interested to know what that reason/decision was.

[KoolDrew]

If disabling the page file is considered something not to be done, then why did they change the options for adjusting the page file

If you have multiple drives and don't want pagefiles on both of them. It would come in handy when troubleshooting pagefile problems too.

[Ranma_Sao]

The reason I heard was physical security. Some people were worried if someone ripped a hdd out of a machine while the machine was running, to look through the pagefile for passwords etc... Since the PF does have a backup of whats in RAM.

As to your Ramdisk argument. That is just silly. Your wasting a ton of address space, for absolutely 0 gain. This isn't 9x people. NT has an intelligent swap algorithm. Read more about kernel fundamentals, or take a class, or read the books I posted. You want to tweak your box, feel free, this is just my take on it. ;)



This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

[condac]

I cant beleve this, you still haven't shown a actual reallife situation where you need a PF. None of you can actualy tell me a situation where the PF is needed.

Windows doesn’t actually use the page file until it’s needed
Well we all know that is not true. They all say that if it its not needed it won't be used, but in real life it use it anyway.

Well I'm off to read some real fact on this, all these book is just wrong

[KoolDrew]

I cant beleve this, you still haven't shown a actual reallife situation where you need a PF. None of you can actualy tell me a situation where the PF is needed.

If you actually read anything we posted you would understand why it is needed and disabling it is just not a good idea.

Well I'm off to read some real fact on this, all these book is just wrong

:rolleyes:

[condac]

The built-in Windows 2000 file cache is essential to the performance of Windows 2000 file servers. It is also an important factor in the performance of Microsoft Internet Information Server (IIS) as well as many other applications. The file cache is a specific, reserved area of virtual storage in the range of system memory addresses, as discussed in Chapter 6. As the name implies, it operates on files, or, more specifically, sections of files. When file sections are referenced, they are mapped into this area of virtual memory by the Cache Manager. This mapping occurs transparently to the application that is trying to read or write the file in question. (The everyday meaning of the word cache refers to it being a hidden storehouse. Caching functions are hidden from the applications.) The memory used for the file cache is managed just like any other area of real memory allocated within the system working set, subject to the same Windows 2000 virtual memory management page replacement policy discussed in the previous chapter. Frequently referenced files tend to remain in cache memory automatically, so no external tuning parameters need to be set to initiate caching under Windows 2000 on either Professional and Server.

This is file cache not page file, file caching never uses PF and it works just wonderful without PF, i can stream a full size 700mb movie from the lan and then unplug the lancable and view it again.

[condac]

Why is everyone so negative to deactivating the page file??
What hapend when you deactivated it that made you put it back??
Or did you put it back beacause micro$oft wrote that they didn't recomend to remove it. They recomend not to show hidden files and your windows folder too. Or because someone else said that you should have it??

Can someone please speak from own experience??

[Phoenix86]

This is file cache not page file, file caching never uses PF and it works just wonderful without PF, i can stream a full size 700mb movie from the lan and then unplug the lancable and view it again.
Read whole quote, no, the link again.
When file sections are referenced, they are mapped into this area of virtual memory by the Cache Manager
File cache uses virtual memory's area, virtual memory's backing store is the page file. Data that's normally paged to disk, because it's not being used, stays in RAM where the cache needs to be.

Why is everyone so negative to deactivating the page file?? Because we have experience on the subject.
What hapend when you deactivated it that made you put it back?? I realized there is no performance gain.
Or did you put it back beacause micro$oft wrote that they didn't recomend to remove it. They recomend not to show hidden files and your windows folder too. Or because someone else said that you should have it??Now you're being testy...
Can someone please speak from own experience??
Yes, I've been running without a pagefile for about a year and a half up to about a month ago.


Well have you even tried to deactivate it??
Yes I have. I have run sans PF for years because I though like you at one point. I learned better.
You're talking to two people WITH experience. Years of it running sans PF.

Now, can you answer ANY of my questions from my first post?
Have you measured PF usage on a system with enough RAM?
Did you test your tweak?
What did it improve?

[Fark_Maniac]

So I just got back from Barnes & Noble and since I'm too cheap to buy the books, I just sat down for an hour or so and just read about them from several books. I looked at Windows XP Inside Out (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=EY7DLTrBTH&isbn=0735620431&itm=1) and Windows Internals (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=EY7DLTrBTH&isbn=0735619174&itm=109). Both state that there must be a pagefile (ironically both mention this around page 375..hehe) for some core operations, though did not say what operations. The first one I read, second listed, stated that if in the registry there is no mention of a physical pagefile, then it is understood as system managed and one is created dependent on amount of ram installed. If equal or greater than 1GB, min / max is 1*ram / 3 * ram. If less than 1GB, then it is 1.5*ram / 3*ram.

Also in the readings, it answered my last post about why the "Disable Pagefile" option is available when modifying the page file. It isn't there to disable all page files, it is there so you are able to disable a pagefile from a hard drive you no longer wish to have a pagefile on. It was not intended to completely get rid of all pagefiles.

After reading both books, they have at least shifted my bias to having a pagefile.

[Ranma_Sao]

Your absolutely right, I have no experiance running Sans Pagefile. But then, I also have talked to the VM subsystem dev's. ;) And have looked at the source code. ;) But again, I have no experiance. ;)

I used to be SDE/T on the Base team, but I am now an SDE/T in the Security Business Technology Unit.


This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

[burningrave101]

Sure go ahead. You can continue wasting your RAM by keeping private data in it that otherwise would of been paged out to give room for other things that actually need it.

Tell me about it. I have 2 gigs of RAM and i disabled my page file to test performance and in the process of doing that i was trying to run a custom Prime95 blend test to test my RAM and Windows had soaked up a big chunk of my total RAM and i kept getting an error message about being low on virtual memory. Needless to say i have sense re-enabled the page file and dont intend on disabling it again.

[condac]

Data that's normally paged to disk, because it's not being used, stays in RAM where the cache needs to be.
So you mean you get more room for file cache if you page out unused data to page file? That makes a bit sens. But with lots of ram that is not a problem.
Have you measured PF usage on a system with enough RAM?
Did you test your tweak?
What did it improve?
1. Yes. with 1gb and 2gb.
2. Yes. I have tested running my normal day programs, irc, winamp, atleast 3 webbrowsers, torrents, dc, ftp and a rendering of 3dsmax. All total use about 1.5gb ram of my 2gb. none of the program or shared files in ftp torents, etc uses the physical disk that windows and page file is on. I have tested it in a way that I always use my computer. I open my mplayer and watch a 20 min series and have all other apps running in the background. when the movie is at the credits I switch to my browser and then switch to 3dsmax and hit cancel on the rendering so it go back to standard edit mode.
Doing all this when i have a page file makes the harddrive go crazy and it have to read 3 seconds at every mouse click i do. It takes 3-5 sec from I click on the task bar to actualy see any text in the browser. And when I click cancel in 3dsmax it lets about 200mb ram free and still it takes long time to load it so i can move around easy in the viewports. And the big killer, hitting the show desktop button and then klick on every app to maximize them again.
3. But if I have no pagefile it will react as fast as the cpu can handle, browser popup directly and have all pics and text showing. Hiting cancel in 3dsmax takes 3 seconds instead of 10. And minimize and maximize go just smooth.

Now this is my experience.

[condac]

Most of the books are based on the memory management in nt and 2000, In xp it is diffrent.
In NT/2000, disable page file will not have an effect, it will just create a new one. But in XP it will run without one, but some roumors said that it create a hidden pagefile in about 22mb size for some operations but I haven't found it yet.
And none of the "how memory stuff work" say what hapens if you have no page file. And all "¿how ?" base their explenations how memory is moved around on a system that have a pagefile.
I forgot to mention that i did get error messages when running with no page file. But there where in form of these yellow popups that windows spam a new installed system with, and I just ignored them and have disable all these yellow popup and I live happy.
Am I just lucky to never had any problems when running without pagefile?

Just one more notice, I installed windows in 3 dec 2002 and have never reinstalled it since then. Just some repairs have ben made, putting missing and corrupt back through my paralell linux install. Have changed motherboard during this time too. And windows run fast and don't have this "slow need to reinstall" fell that most system have. I got my 1gig ram in spring 2003 and removed page file 2-4weeks after.

[Elmo187]

Just one more notice, I installed windows in 3 dec 2002 and have never reinstalled it since then. Just some repairs have ben made, putting missing and corrupt back through my paralell linux install. Have changed motherboard during this time too. And windows run fast and don't have this "slow need to reinstall" fell that most system have. I got my 1gig ram in spring 2003 and removed page file 2-4weeks after.
Oh, well in that case you MUST know what your talking about. Why didn't you say that in the first place? :rolleyes:

[Fark_Maniac]

Most of the books are based on the memory management in nt and 2000, In xp it is diffrent.
In NT/2000, disable page file will not have an effect, it will just create a new one. But in XP it will run without one, but some roumors said that it create a hidden pagefile in about 22mb size for some operations but I haven't found it yet.
And none of the "how memory stuff work" say what hapens if you have no page file. And all "¿how ?" base their explenations how memory is moved around on a system that have a pagefile.
I forgot to mention that i did get error messages when running with no page file. But there where in form of these yellow popups that windows spam a new installed system with, and I just ignored them and have disable all these yellow popup and I live happy.
Am I just lucky to never had any problems when running without pagefile?

Just one more notice, I installed windows in 3 dec 2002 and have never reinstalled it since then. Just some repairs have ben made, putting missing and corrupt back through my paralell linux install. Have changed motherboard during this time too. And windows run fast and don't have this "slow need to reinstall" fell that most system have. I got my 1gig ram in spring 2003 and removed page file 2-4weeks after.

I am not one to flame...but read the damned books instead of talking out your ass...please! I went to barnes and nobles and read the books! It mentioned 2000, XP, and 2003...not NT 4. Please re-read my post.

I seem to think my posts are invisible or those who don't want to hear it, it doesn't register. :rolleyes:

[rolo]

From my experience, disabling the pagefile has exactly one benefit, but you need a lot of RAM to see this specific benefit. Windows' file cache is apparently very aggressive, so if you're doing a lot of disk I/O (and I don't mean "playing mp3s and browsing the web") then there's no way for private data to get paged out to disk. So it stays in physical memory.

I have noticed that disabling the pagefile on my workstation substantially improves system responsivity when doing a full multithreaded build of my current project. It's something that takes roughly 30 minutes on a Dual 3ghz Xeon with 2GB RAM. Without the page file, Outlook comes up pretty quick (it was minimized, I'm not referring to starting it from scratch). With a page file, it is very slow and the disk grinds away even more.

Anyway this is an empirical observation with a hypothesis as a possible explanation. It is not necessarily the exactly correct explanation.

And as always ... This post is made "AS IS" without warranties, and confers no rights.

[Ranma_Sao]

From my experience, disabling the pagefile has exactly one benefit, but you need a lot of RAM to see this specific benefit. Windows' file cache is apparently very aggressive, so if you're doing a lot of disk I/O (and I don't mean "playing mp3s and browsing the web") then there's no way for private data to get paged out to disk. So it stays in physical memory.

I have noticed that disabling the pagefile on my workstation substantially improves system responsivity when doing a full multithreaded build of my current project. It's something that takes roughly 30 minutes on a Dual 3ghz Xeon with 2GB RAM. Without the page file, Outlook comes up pretty quick (it was minimized, I'm not referring to starting it from scratch). With a page file, it is very slow and the disk grinds away even more.

Anyway this is an empirical observation with a hypothesis as a possible explanation. It is not necessarily the exactly correct explanation.

And as always ... This post is made "AS IS" without warranties, and confers no rights.That's because when something is minimized it's paged out. (This is the one part of the VMM I wish could be better.) The reasoning goes, if it's minimized the user isn't using it, so the ram could be put to better use. (If you don't want it paged out, just leave it as a small window) So when you maximize it, it's get paged back in.

This post is made "AS IS" without warranties, and confers no rights.

[condac]

I'm going to post my last post in this thread now if you don't mind.
I run without pagefile. In my system the way I work it is faster to run without pagefile due to lots of background apps that i constantly is switching between.
I have read all your links, it was good reading but it don't seems to be right because according to all that it is not posible or good to run without pagefile. Well I'm doing it and i love it. You can never make me put my pagefile back, unless BF3 needs more than 2gig ram.
And how can you tell me that it is not smart to run without pagefile when it have worked for 2 years now. Well that is in my mind you having wrong.
This is my last word, if you dont like it i might read this thread and put some other words in it later.