Ordering soon - last check!

S

Slartibartfast

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 25, 2004
Messages
7,280
Alright, so I'm *finally* just about ready to order parts for my dual opty (as soon as Boston University pries it's head out of its ass for 2 seconds and sends me my money next week, that is). My planned build is below, let me know what you guys think.

Mobo:
Supermicro H8DCE

RAM:
4x 1gb Samsung DDR 400 ECC

CPU's:
2x Opteron 246 Troy
I went with these because I want to upgrade to 270+'s in a year or so, so I didn't want to break the bank on temporary, single core procs.

PSU:
PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 1kw
This I will be ordering direct from them so as to have it customized with the correct connectors (thanks to AreEss for all the info on this).

Case:
Lian Li PC-767
Went with this one because it top-mounts the PSU, so fitting it in there shouldn't be a problem. I am a little worried about the airflow in it, what do you guys think? I have one of those exhaust fans that fits in a PCI slot that I might stick up in the top of this thing to help pull out the hot air.

Videocard:
EVGA GeForce 7600gt 256mb
I went with this card because I'm not much of a PC gamer, so this is a good place to cut some costs. I figure I can always throw a second one in a few years down the road, too.

HD:
WD 76gb Raptor w/ 16mb cache
This is one of the new raptors with the 16mb cache. I have a 250gb Seagate that currently holds all of my important data that I will be moving to this new build for storage.

Sound card:
Creative Labs X-Fi
I want a dedicated soundcard because I'm a big music buff, so audio quality is definitely important.

Optical:
Lite-On DVD-ROM
NEC-3550A DVD Burner
I already have this burner, so that option isn't flexible ;)

Floppy:
TEAC floppy drive
A lot of people say floppies are dead, but I wouldn't build a machine without one quite yet. This is the one I want (TEAC is supposed to be a good brand, right?) but if it's not in stock when I'm ordering I'll just grab whatever I can, it's not like the thing is going to get heavy usage.

Let me know what you guys think! And thanks again to everyone here for putting up with all my questions these past few months ;)
 
I'm going to try XP Pro first. I've read that by adding a switch to boot.ini (I think it was /NOLOWMEM ) you can get XP Pro to see all 4 gig of your RAM. If that doesn't work I'll shell out for x64.
 
It's /PAE iirc, or maybe /nopae, forgot which. Build looks good though.
 
I believe it's the /PAE switch and that comes at a performance hit. You are actually better off not using the switch and not seeing all the ram. Take it from me, Windows XP Professional x64 Edition is the way to go if you must have Windows on that box.
 
Dan_D said:
I believe it's the /PAE switch and that comes at a performance hit. You are actually better off not using the switch and not seeing all the ram. Take it from me, Windows XP Professional x64 Edition is the way to go if you must have Windows on that box.
Click to expand...

Ah, I didn't think there was any performance hit. I'll pick up xp pro x64 then too :)
 
Slartibartfast said:
Ah, I didn't think there was any performance hit. I'll pick up xp pro x64 then too :)
Click to expand...

The method used for addressing the ram causes some performance degredation. I don't know how severe, but since most applications don't use more than 2GB of ram, any performance hit by going to 4GB wouldn't be acceptable. It would be better to go with less physical ram in such instances.
 
To my knowledge XP SP2 removed working PAE support. This has just been confirmed over at DFI-street IIRC.

The PSU is overkill for this unit, an OCZ 520 W Powerstream will do fine, and quieter.

The Opteron 246s seem to be very slow compared to the overall quality of the system. I think you don't seem to put enough money into this system. Maybe you should get one 275 now instead and later buy a second one?

(If you try the latter, make sure that all devices work from CPU0. I think that is the case for the H8DCE but make sure).
 
uOpt said:
To my knowledge XP SP2 removed working PAE support. This has just been confirmed over at DFI-street IIRC.

The PSU is overkill for this unit, an OCZ 520 W Powerstream will do fine, and quieter.

The Opteron 246s seem to be very slow compared to the overall quality of the system. I think you don't seem to put enough money into this system. Maybe you should get one 275 now instead and later buy a second one?

(If you try the latter, make sure that all devices work from CPU0. I think that is the case for the H8DCE but make sure).
Click to expand...

That limitation was present on the Tyan K8WE but not on the H8DCE. So all devices should work from CPU0 alone.

I also agree on the single dual core now, and a second one later over the 246's.

Though 520Watt's is fine for this configuration, does the OCZ PSU meet EPS12v specs?
 
On the psu:

There seems to be two groups of people out there, those who say "600 watts on this system will be plenty" and those who say "definitely get the 1kw, you practically need it - the supermicro board is very very power hungry." I want to go the 1kw route because it will leave me a lot of room to expand/upgrade in the future. I want to keep things like high-end SLi and RAID an option without having to buy a new PSU later on. Frankly, I would rather spend the money on the psu now and not have to worry about it. If I'm going to put all this cash into a system to begin with, I might as well make sure it's properly juiced. I will probably be able to carry that psu over to another build a few years down the road as well.

On the cpu's:

Obviously, this is where I trimmed the most. The thing is, I can afford a lot of ram, or good cpu's, not quite both. I went with weak cpu's and lots of ram for now because DDR1 prices are going to go up, while socket 940 chips are going to go down.

So what do you think? If you could go with one of the options below, which one?

1.) What I have above (slower cpu's but 4gb of RAM)

2.) I could cut down to 2gb of ram (4x 512mb) and forget xp pro x64, and put that extra $400 or so towards cpu's now (which would let me get about a pair of 265's or 250's). How much would you expect DDR1 ECC memory to go up in the next 18 months or so? Also, if I go the 2x 265 route, will having 2gb bottleneck the system if I'm utilizing all 4 cores?

3.) Only use half the board, get one really fast cpu and 2gb of ram to go with it.

Either way, my current system is an athlon 64 @ 1.8 ghz with only 512 ram, so I'll notice the difference :D
 
That's complete rubbish.

My dual 246 with 4 GB pulled IIRC 220 watts out of the AC, that means about 180 watts out of the PSU. Your shadowparker graphics card won't draw more than 50 or so and the Raptor maybe 10.

I can look up the actual consumption number if you like.
 
Slartibartfast said:
So what do you think? If you could go with one of the options below, which one?

1.) What I have above (slower cpu's but 4gb of RAM)
Click to expand...

I'd say cut some money off the PSU and get nicer CPUs.

Also make sure you have E revisions which take less power.

Slartibartfast said:
2.) I could cut down to 2gb of ram (4x 512mb) and forget xp pro x64, and put that extra $400 or so towards cpu's now (which would let me get about a pair of 265's or 250's). How much would you expect DDR1 ECC memory to go up in the next 18 months or so? Also, if I go the 2x 265 route, will having 2gb bottleneck the system if I'm utilizing all 4 cores?
Click to expand...

4x 512 is a waste of money. NUMA has a neglible performance advantage for common applications, it's not worth the trouble. If your workload can live in 2 GB get 2x 1 GB and put them on the first CPU's bank.

Slartibartfast said:
3.) Only use half the board, get one really fast cpu and 2gb of ram to go with it.
Click to expand...

I'd rather get one of your goal dual-cores now.

But as I said, it is possible that devices on the board are connected to the second CPU and then that won't work.

Slartibartfast said:
Either way, my current system is an athlon 64 @ 1.8 ghz with only 512 ram, so I'll notice the difference :D
Click to expand...

Yeah but mostly for RAM reasons.

Really, a 2.0 GHz AMD64 is not a big step at all.

And that money on an expensive Windoze version is about the biggest waste I can imagine :)
 
uOpt said:
That's complete rubbish.

My dual 246 with 4 GB pulled IIRC 220 watts out of the AC, that means about 180 watts out of the PSU. Your shadowparker graphics card won't draw more than 50 or so and the Raptor maybe 10.

I can look up the actual consumption number if you like.
Click to expand...

Ok, so how does this Seasonic look to you? It has the requisite power connectors. Basically I'm looking for something that will handle two high end gpu's and 5ish hd's on top of all the basics. Assuming this psu is ok, the price difference between it and the 1kw would let me get 2x 250's as well as 4gb of ram.

uOpt said:
And that money on an expensive Windoze version is about the biggest waste I can imagine
Click to expand...

Well, between work, night classes, the gf and other things I don't have much time to learn linux to the extent that I would like :p I can use it fine and tweak it to an extent, but when something breaks, well...

edit: btw if anybody wants to AIM me about this you can reach me at "Who Writes This" evenings/weekends.
 
uOpt said:
That's complete rubbish.
Click to expand...

*sigh* Why can't you get the hint and just go away and stop spreading lies and ignorance?

Your shadowparker graphics card won't draw more than 50 or so and the Raptor maybe 10.
I can look up the actual consumption number if you like.
Click to expand...

You should get a hint and do this before cluttering these forums with noise.

The 7600 is around 110W combined load. The Raptor is IIRC 20-25W. Your numbers are so far off as to be laughable.

You're also so utterly ignorant about the H8DCE's requirements it's not funny. Sure, he could use a 510 if he wanted. Or an 850SSI. But not a Seasonic, not an OCZ, nor any of the other garbage people seem intent on pushing for whatever reason it is.

The H8DCE requires three rails or one rail. You cannot use two rails, you cannot use four rails. These rails must be arranged specifically, with specific load capability, period. This is non-negotiable. Ignoring this will kill the board, kill the PSU, and lead to nothing but migraines.
Nobody makes a stock multi-rail PSU that has the correct load capability or rail configuration for the H8DCE.
That's a simple fact. Deal with it. You need 28A+ on 12V3 to the 24 pin, 17A+ on 12V1 to the 8 pin, and 17A+ on 12V2 to the 4 pin. (You can of course, swap rail numbers, but you shouldn't.) You MUST have both 4 pin and 8 pin connections. You MUST have native 24 pin EPS12V. You MUST have 1.75A 5VSB+ as well. Those are all absolute requirements.
 
AreEss said:
The 7600 is around 110W combined load. The Raptor is IIRC 20-25W. Your numbers are so far off as to be laughable.
Click to expand...
Let's see. According to eVGA:
Minimum of a 350 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 18 Amp Amps.)
Minimum 400 Watt for SLI mode system.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 24 Amp Amps.)
Click to expand...
the difference between one card and two is 6A@12V. That's 72 watts. I realize this isn't the most accurate way of measuring draw, by a long shot, but I can't find any better figures. 110 watts for a card designed for low power draw as compared to its predecessors seems a little high. Cite source?

As for the Raptor (directly from WD's specs):
12 VDC Read/Write 470 mA
5 VDC Idle 938 mA
Click to expand...
Those numbers are the *largest* ones which appear. By my math, that's 10.33W. The spec is exactly the same for the 74 and 150.
AreEss said:
But not a Seasonic, not an OCZ, nor any of the other garbage people seem intent on pushing for whatever reason it is.

The H8DCE requires three rails or one rail.
Click to expand...
OCZ: 24 pin connector. Single rail. +3.3V(28A),+5V(40A), +12V(33A). I call BS; show evidence or stop flaming.

I've agreed with you on some things; I'm not dead set against the idea of the 1KW being the only suitable supply for the H8DCE. But you must at least admit that the alternative is a good $300 cheaper and thus very interesting to look at.

 
unhappy_mage said:
Let's see. According to eVGA:

the difference between one card and two is 6A@12V. That's 72 watts. I realize this isn't the most accurate way of measuring draw, by a long shot, but I can't find any better figures. 110 watts for a card designed for low power draw as compared to its predecessors seems a little high. Cite ... (snip)
Click to expand...

Again, I said estimating. I don't look at toy card consumption. And regardless, you should always overestimate. 72W is sure as hell more than 50W. (And I'm pretty sure 110-120 is accurate for the 7800/Quadro4400, which is likely what I was thinking of.) As far as drives, again, overestimate by startup. WDC does not state startup draw for the Raptor 16MBs, and typical startup is 1-1.5x typical read/write operation, thusly, 20-25W is your estimating number.
For comparison, a Hitachi T7K250 draws 1.8A@12 and 0.9A@5; that's more than triple on the 12V, and that's only a 7200RPM drive.

OCZ: 24 pin connector. Single rail. +3.3V(28A),+5V(40A), +12V(33A). I call BS; show evidence or stop flaming.

I've agreed with you on some things; I'm not dead set against the idea of the 1KW being the only suitable supply for the H8DCE. But you must at least admit that the alternative is a good $300 cheaper and thus very interesting to look at
Click to expand...

... does anyone around here actually read what the hell I say?

I said, quoting myself, "Nobody makes a stock multi-rail PSU that has the correct load capability or rail configuration for the H8DCE."
MULTI-RAIL - that is a SINGLE RAIL. I said nothing about a single rail NOT working, only multi!
And irregardless of that, you still need 24+8+4. All three, not two of three. And no garauntees it'll work with an adapter either. The PCP&C 510 is fine. But none of those give you signifcant headroom. If you're going to invest in a system like this, it doesn't make sense to not spend the time and money on a power supply that will last as long as possible. Eventually dual 7900's or what have you will find their way in, they always do.
 
AreEss said:
Again, I said estimating. I don't look at toy card consumption. And regardless, you should always overestimate. 72W is sure as hell more than 50W. (And I'm pretty sure 110-120 is accurate for the 7800/Quadro4400, which is likely what I was thinking of.)
Click to expand...
So your assertion is that because 72 is more than 50, 110 is a reasonable amount to allot to it? The extreme PSU calc says the card takes 57 watts.
AreEss said:
As far as drives, again, overestimate by startup. WDC does not state startup draw for the Raptor 16MBs, and typical startup is 1-1.5x typical read/write operation, thusly, 20-25W is your estimating number.
Click to expand...
I agree, except for the 10.33 * 1.5 = 20-25 part. But the difference is I linked to someone that did the testing and posted the results rather than asserting that I knew.
AreEss said:
... does anyone around here actually read what the hell I say?
Click to expand...
My apologies - I wasn't responding to the multi-rail part of this paragraph but rather the "not a Seasonic, not an OCZ, nor any of the other garbage people seem intent on pushing" portion. And since it's a single-rail power supply, why wouldn't it work with an adapter? Assuming the amperage is available (which it seems to be) and it's all one rail (which it is) then it shouldn't make a whole lot of difference what path it takes to power the board.

I don't doubt the lack of a suitable multi-rail power supply; the number of three-rail power supplies I can find on the Internet is... limited. There's the 1KW and the 850SSI, and that's pretty much it.

AreEss said:
You need 28A+ on 12V3 to the 24 pin, 17A+ on 12V1 to the 8 pin, and 17A+ on 12V2 to the 4 pin.
Click to expand...
None of the PCP&C models, even, meet this. The 1KW has 16A on its first two rails, not 17. And that's (28+17+17)*12=744 watts just by itself. Supermicro recommends a 645 watt supply, and indeed sells a bundle with one (46A@12V rail, or about 75% of what you're recommending). Are they cheaping out, or is that power supply not actually 645W but more like 800?
 
AreEss said:
*sigh* Why can't you get the hint and just go away and stop spreading lies and ignorance?
Click to expand...

May I ask how many systems like this you built lately?

AreEss said:
You should get a hint and do this before cluttering these forums with noise.

The 7600 is around 110W combined load. The Raptor is IIRC 20-25W. Your numbers are so far off as to be laughable.

You're also so utterly ignorant about the H8DCE's requirements it's not funny. Sure, he could use a 510 if he wanted. Or an 850SSI. But not a Seasonic, not an OCZ, nor any of the other garbage people seem intent on pushing for whatever reason it is.

The H8DCE requires three rails or one rail. You cannot use two rails, you cannot use four rails. These rails must be arranged specifically, with specific load capability, period. This is non-negotiable. Ignoring this will kill the board, kill the PSU, and lead to nothing but migraines.
Nobody makes a stock multi-rail PSU that has the correct load capability or rail configuration for the H8DCE.
That's a simple fact. Deal with it. You need 28A+ on 12V3 to the 24 pin, 17A+ on 12V1 to the 8 pin, and 17A+ on 12V2 to the 4 pin. (You can of course, swap rail numbers, but you shouldn't.) You MUST have both 4 pin and 8 pin connections. You MUST have native 24 pin EPS12V. You MUST have 1.75A 5VSB+ as well. Those are all absolute requirements.
Click to expand...

Apart from the already stated falseness of your GeForce "toy" number (a fine graphics card for many purposes), I am not pushing anything here.

I have a H8QC8 which also has these requirements. The PSU I tried to use with it was a custom build of the PCP&C 1 KW, with two ntive EPS12V. Guess what, it didn't work, because of it's rail split.

And guess what else? The OCZ 520 W Powerstream worked just fine, with a bunch of adapters no less. I went to a Zippy 700W for 24/7 operations, and I have a freagging powermeter and I know by the watt how much my 8-core Opteron takes. I took the liberty to draw the conclusion that a 4-core Opteron setup takes less power than mine. And as I mentioned, with 4x 875s and the Zippy 700W the total power drawn out of the AC is 361 watts, octa-priming. Any other load than octa-prime has considerable less, 8x boince is about 330 Watts, out of the AC.

Just because you have an aggressive discussion style doesn't make you more right than the people who actually built and used these systems.
 
So I've done some tweaking and changed a few things:

PSU: I'm going to get one of the above mentioned supermicro 645 watt units. If they ship H8DCE's with this psu, it can't be all bad.

RAM:
4x Corsair 1gb ECC
I've been told by some people on 2cpu that this ram works fine in the H8DCE, and it's $30 less per stick than the samsung stuff. Also, a lot of people like Samsung stuff but I don't trust them at all anymore.

By spending less on the PSU and RAM than I planned for, I'm upping the cpu's and case to:

CPU's:
2x Opty 248 Troy
Should be a better jump than the 246's.

Case:
Silverstone TJ07
I really like the way this case is designed. I don't think it looks as nice as some of the lian-li cases, but I think the layout is superior.

I think that overall this system will be good for my purposes for some time to come. It should be fairly upgradeable in the long haul, which is really what I'm looking for. I should be able to squeeze a few years out of it before upgrading the cpu's (maybe at that point I can afford a pair of 285's), and the 4gb of ram should be good for quite some time.
 
if your a music buff i recommend stearing clear of creative all together. try an m-audio revo 5.1.
 
Jason711 said:
if your a music buff i recommend stearing clear of creative all together. try an m-audio revo 5.1.
Click to expand...

I've heard that m-audio's driver support is atrocious. Do you happen to know if they have compatible drivers for XP x64? I looked around briefly and didn't find much.
 
did they really remove PAE support in XP32?

do you have a confirmation for this?
 
i had it working on xp-64. cannot recall where i found the driver though. a bit more googling and u should find it w/o much problem.
 
I'd like confirmation and maybe pics from someone who's actually running a H8DC_ board on the whole PSU thing. I still can't justify spending $300 on a PSU when others would suffice. Reports on 2cpu indicated the Seasonic S12s and others power the board just fine. No need to go for the 1kw.
 
movax said:
I'd like confirmation and maybe pics from someone who's actually running a H8DC_ board on the whole PSU thing. I still can't justify spending $300 on a PSU when others would suffice. Reports on 2cpu indicated the Seasonic S12s and others power the board just fine. No need to go for the 1kw.
Click to expand...

Honestly this issue has been driving me nuts for a few months now. Some people run it on the seasonic S12, some on antecs, some on PCP+C. I decided to get the supermicro psu because they ship that with the mobo on some of their barebones configs.
 
Only thing I could see "Wrong" with getting that Supermicro PSU is that is was probably designed for _server_ configs, meaning no provisions for powering high-end GPUs....probably.
 
movax said:
Only thing I could see "Wrong" with getting that Supermicro PSU is that is was probably designed for _server_ configs, meaning no provisions for powering high-end GPUs....probably.
Click to expand...

Well, I will probably be only running the one 7600gt for quite some time, so I don't think it will be too much of an issue. It does only have one rail though, so SLi might be out. But with DX10 around the corner, by the time I want to upgrade I'll probably just get a single new card anyway.
 
uOpt said:
May I ask how many systems like this you built lately?
Click to expand...

Obviously a lot more than you.

uOpt said:
I have a H8QC8 which also has these requirements. The PSU I tried to use with it was a custom build of the PCP&C 1 KW, with two ntive EPS12V. Guess what, it didn't work, because of it's rail split.
Click to expand...

And that's an H8QC8, which you were warned on, which PCP&C and I both could have told you wouldn't work, and which is NOT an H8DCE and not at all relevant to this discussion!
What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously? Why do you have this burning need to spout off with this crap when you clearly do not have an inkling of understanding with regards to the requirements? I mean for the love of the gods, you're trying to say that a PCP&C 1KW is bad for an H8DCE because you were too stupid to check with Supermicro, PCP&C, or anyone with a clue before ordering one for an H8QC8. That's your own stupid fault, get over it.

unhappy_mage said:
None of the PCP&C models, even, meet this. The 1KW has 16A on its first two rails, not 17. And that's (28+17+17)*12=744 watts just by itself. Supermicro recommends a 645 watt supply, and indeed sells a bundle with one (46A@12V rail, or about 75% of what you're recommending). Are they cheaping out, or is that power supply not actually 645W but more like 800?
Click to expand...

Firstly, thanks for the link to SR; I don't pay much attention to them, since that's the first time they've even been within 20% of my own testing.

Secondly, ARGH. My brain has been fried this week; 14A+ not 17A+. That's 168W for CPU, DIMMs, and chipset (split between two) per rail minimum. Or about 100W CPU, 20W available per DIMM, and another 10W in supporting circuitry. 28A is only 336W; 150W of that is taken up by your PCI-Express slots immediately, another 50W by board, that leaves you 136W of working area for all other devices on 12V. This is of course, theoretical peak without crossload considerations, derating, etcetera. Which is why it's not 12A (144W) - you're going to end up losing some power to crossloading, derating, etcetera period.
Doing the math with the Supermicro (which I don't recommend against, or specifically recommend due to mounting issues - see below,) you have 552W of 12V available. That's actually 82% of the 1KW, not 75%. Subtracting board and PCI-Express gives you 352W to split between CPUs and all 12V devices. Again, with 100W per CPU, that leaves you at 152W remaining for DIMMs, additional devices, etcetera. Meaning, you won't be running SLI off that with any appreciable number of drives or other 12V suckers attached. Let's say you only have a 75W card and 4 DIMMs. You've got less than 225W and 8 drive bays; 25W startup gives you 200W, and the PSU is basically tapped out. But yes, SM does underrate, as their designs are 'peaky'; I'd estimate the 645's peak startup (<45C optemp, cold start, <=2A draw on +5VSB) at somewhere around 800W. They rate by continuous only, and basically design by board and drive spec; if you install 8 drives, 8 DIMMs and a 90W PCIe card, it's highly likely the PSU won't be able to handle it.
Something that's very important to remember is that just because a card has a PCIe external power connector doesn't mean it favors it. The spec for a PCIe16x is 75W from the slot - part of the solution to AGP was to give more watts base to eliminate the AGP vs AGPPro50/110 issue, and standardize an external power connector. So it's possible for a single card to pull 75W from the PSU and then pull another 150W from the external. (The REALiZM 800 pulls 150W combined, 75/W75W.)
By now, the exact problem of the Supermicro should be apparent; very little headroom. And as I said; the system will get bigger and better parts inevitably. It's far wiser to invest in a long-term PSU solution than to play the PSU shuffle every time you want to upgrade the video card. The amount of overhead given by the 850SSI and 1KW basically garauntees you a minimum 3 year usable life out of the PSU at least, if not the whole system. That's why I insist on, and exclusively use Etasis, Zippy/Emacs and PCP&C. The ultimate goal of any system is to get as much usable life out of it as possible, and part of that equation is always going to be giving yourself headroom for upgrades. Back in the day, that used to mean installing a single 80mm ball-bearing fan in case the user added a second hard drive. These days, it means at least 200W of 12V headroom because card consumption is truly out of control. If I could, I'd recommend an 820W Etasis EFRP-3463 (55A/660W 12V with superb cross-reg - +5/-4%.) However, 14" long hotswap N+1's that cost $700+ a shot and produce >60dBA are not good for your desktop life. ;)

Slartibartifast said:
PSU: I'm going to get one of the above mentioned supermicro 645 watt units. If they ship H8DCE's with this psu, it can't be all bad.
Click to expand...

Just be aware that they may not mount quite right, and you'll end up with little headroom. I've never had good luck getting Supermicro PSUs separate. That's not to say they aren't good PSUs. The SM645 should work well. The problem is that some models actually don't have the ATX mountpoints you're expecting, and they're hard to get outside of the case the majority of the time. They're also designed specifically for the airflow paths and cable lengths in the Supermicro cases. That's why I don't typically recommend them; in most self-built applications, they end up not working without a lot of hassle for one reason or another.

http://www.supermicro.com/products/chassis/4U/743/SC743T-645.cfm
If you take a look, you'll see that there's no ATX backing plate on that case or PSU, like it's unattached. Here's the catch; it's attached just fine, using proprietary internal mounts. Don't confuse them with the typical lip-mount, which is a supplemental and part of the standard.
 
At risk of sounding like a selfish bastard, I'm going to wait for Slarti to build his system, and then PM spam him later for exact details ;) Only part I'm missing right now to build is that annoying green stuff....money, I think they call it. I see too little of it these days.

Oh yes, stupid question that's been bugging me for awhile. 1kw PSU = means it can draw somewhere close to that number peak/max, but it only draws as much power as it needs? Hopefully not too confusing? :D
 
I've been talking with dave graham about this (he used to hang out here a lot, now I talk to him through 2cpu.com), and he says he can get one of the psu's seperate for me. I wasn't aware that they weren't necessarily atx though - I'll speak to him about it more just to make sure.

I could probably afford getting the 1kw but it would put me up more than I would like to spend in the immediate short-term. The price I was given for the SM 645 was about $120, so in the short-term that's a good price and I can always pick up the PCP+C further down the road.

So just out of curiosity, is the H8DCE particularly power-hungry? I mean I could almost pick up a H8QC8 and a decent psu for the price of the H8DCE and a 1kw PCP+C.
 
I think the primary reason behind PC P&C suggestions is that they will do some kinda custom wiring for you specifically for the H8DCE. And well, I guess the fact that they're high-quality PSUs too.
 
movax said:
At risk of sounding like a selfish bastard, I'm going to wait for Slarti to build his system, and then PM spam him later for exact details ;) Only part I'm missing right now to build is that annoying green stuff....money, I think they call it. I see too little of it these days.

Oh yes, stupid question that's been bugging me for awhile. 1kw PSU = means it can draw somewhere close to that number peak/max, but it only draws as much power as it needs? Hopefully not too confusing? :D
Click to expand...

No prob movax ;) You guys will get as much of a report as I can muster once I buy the damn thing and RMA the usual batch of DOA parts :p

As for the 1kw, according to the site it can draw 1kw continuously at 50c, and can peak at 1.1kw. And yes, any psu will only draw as much as it needs.

edit: if those supermicro cases weren't so freaking ugly I would consider getting one of them and saving myself the hassle.
 
Slartibartfast said:
I've been talking with dave graham about this (he used to hang out here a lot, now I talk to him through 2cpu.com), and he says he can get one of the psu's seperate for me. I wasn't aware that they weren't necessarily atx though - I'll speak to him about it more just to make sure.
Click to expand...

Dave's good folks, just have him make sure it's got the ATX mountpoints on the back (many don't when included with the case) and check the cable length; it may not be long enough for the TJ07. In fact, I'd bet money on it. :(

I could probably afford getting the 1kw but it would put me up more than I would like to spend in the immediate short-term. The price I was given for the SM 645 was about $120, so in the short-term that's a good price and I can always pick up the PCP+C further down the road.
Click to expand...

Holy crap. That's one hell of a drop. I won't say what my price is, but I order differently, and it's a lot higher than $120. Hell, that's less than I would pay for modules.

So just out of curiosity, is the H8DCE particularly power-hungry? I mean I could almost pick up a H8QC8 and a decent psu for the price of the H8DCE and a 1kw PCP+C.
Click to expand...

Yes, the H8DCE as a board itself is extremely power hungry. All the nForce boards are. I'd have to go digging, and sadly don't have the time right now, but IIRC base board draw is 30W+. If you take a look at the manual, it also mentions the minimum 2A on +5VSB; any PSU without 2A on +5VSB will not work with the H8DCE. The SM645 has 4A, and the PCP&C 850SSI and 1KW have 3.5A. OCZ doesn't state theirs, the Antec TPII-550 did not have enough in testing - warmboot failures, Fortron claims 2.0A on the FSP600-80GLN but I haven't tested. In my experience though, 2.0A is not enough if there's any significant load, and 2.5A is about the minimum you'll be in the clear with.
 
Ok, so are there any good dual 940 mobos that aren't nforce chipsets? I would be willing to sacrifice SLi if a cheaper psu will be sufficient in powering the system.

edit: by "good" I mean something that will take a lot of memory, NUMA support, that sort of thing.

edit 2: hmm not finding much, they're out there but they are all integrated video, no pciex16 or agp :(
 
Slartibartfast said:
PSU: I'm going to get one of the above mentioned supermicro 645 watt units. If they ship H8DCE's with this psu, it can't be all bad.
Click to expand...

They will be fairly loud, however.
 
AreEss said:
Firstly, thanks for the link to SR; I don't pay much attention to them, since that's the first time they've even been within 20% of my own testing.[/url]
Testing with regard to noise, power consumption, speeds?
AreEss said:
Secondly, ARGH.
Click to expand...
Nice post. If you did that all the time people wouldn't call you a jerk so much ;) Volumes of detail, and numbers to match the assertions.

It's quite a shock to add up the numbers on this - I had no idea how high they could really get for this chipset, or for dual Opterons in general. 95W * 2 for chips (assuming 265s - but it's pretty close to that across the line) (and that's without overclocking!), 150 for pci express slots, 50W for memory, and then add in about 100W for the chipsets and board. That's potential for about 500 watts right there, and that's without adding a hungry video card or any drives. And pretty much all of that is on the +12V - that means at least 40 amps on it.

On the other hand, all that amperage will only get used if you put in things that use it. For example, the proposed setup as it stands: 95*2 for chips, only 75W for pci express (there's only one card, and it doesn't have an offboard connector!), 25 for memory (only 4 sticks instead of a full 8), and 100 for chipsets and board, and you're at only 400 watts. That's 33 amps instead of 40, which is pretty much the borderline between a $180 PSU and a $500 PSU. Hopefully those higher-end supplies will drop in price as more enthusiasts start building these high-demand rigs. And if one were to use the Opteron HE series (at twice the cost! but probably a decent energy savings over the long term) the draw for the chips goes to 55*2.

It'd be nice if Supermicro would take a cue from Intel and start listing their power requirements on their pages. Maybe they did, somewhere, but I can't find it.

Click to expand...
 
unhappy_mage said:
Nice post. If you did that all the time people wouldn't call you a jerk so much ;) Volumes of detail, and numbers to match the assertions.
Click to expand...

Meh, I've been doing this for years and years, and a lot of OEMing. I carry so many numbers around in my head it's not even funny, and I expect folks to either know them or look them up themselves. If that makes me a jerk, so be it.

It's quite a shock to add up the numbers on this - I had no idea how high they could really get for this chipset, or for dual Opterons in general. 95W * 2 for chips (assuming 265s - but it's pretty close to that across the line) (and that's without overclocking!), 150 for pci express slots, 50W for memory, and then add in about 100W for the chipsets and board. That's potential for about 500 watts right there, and that's without adding a hungry video card or any drives. And pretty much all of that is on the +12V - that means at least 40 amps on it.
Click to expand...

Well, you actually have to go a minimum 100W on your CPUs consuming 95W. ALWAYS +5 on your CPUs. Why? Heatsinks. Yep; allocate 5W minimum for the fan. I allocate 10W for 120mm beasties to be safe, which generally will account for all your case fans in total when averaged out. (Unless you're talking about a windtunnel.) On Opterons, your consumption is about 90W for single core, 95W for dual core, 60W for HE, 40W for EE before fans. (Always overestimate low-powers by 5W minimum as headroom.)
Now if you want to get really, really ugly with your numbers; 20W 3.3V for each PCI or PCI-X slot, excepting 5V slots at 25W per. PCIe16x is 75W per, by spec. (Many boards actually cannot meet wattage spec, by the way.) There is a per-lane wattage spec for PCIe other than 16x, but I can't remember it. These also do not run directly at 12V, which reduces your efficiency and increases your draw. It takes about 80W to power a 75W PCIe slot due to losses, hence the external power spec. Same for your DIMMs, your chipset, etcetera; things that do not run directly off 3.3V, 5V, or 12V obviously require more wattage due to step-up and step-down losses.

On the other hand, all that amperage will only get used if you put in things that use it. For example, the proposed setup as it stands: 95*2 for chips, only 75W for pci express (there's only one card, and it doesn't have an offboard connector!), 25 for memory (only 4 sticks instead of a full 8), and 100 for chipsets and board, and you're at only 400 watts. That's 33 amps instead of 40, which is pretty much the borderline between a $180 PSU and a $500 PSU. Hopefully those higher-end supplies will drop in price as more enthusiasts start building these high-demand rigs. And if one were to use the Opteron HE series (at twice the cost! but probably a decent energy savings over the long term) the draw for the chips goes to 55*2.
Click to expand...

The HE's aren't really targeted for anything other than 1U/2U right now, to be honest. They're better than the DTR method in every respect; directly comparable to Xeon versus Xeon LV in some senses. The point of the EE and HE is to be able to cram 4 848HE's into 1U of space without melting steel and aluminum. ;) They also help get around the simple fact that getting 1000W into 1U is, well, impossible if you also want a 13x16 motherboard in there too. If you take a look at the manual for the Supermicro quad-1U, it's actually a 750W PSU IIRC. (It's around 700-800 range, may be 720, may be 760, don't have the manual in front of me.) You have to use HEs to manage the heat just as much as the power consumption though.
As far as price drops, I really don't forsee significant pricedrops from anyone well, ever. People are paying because they have to, and margins are tight on the high quality stuff. The parts cost in building a PSU that can go 24x7x365 @ 50C putting out 1000W is very much not cheap. You might see some retailers dropping below PCP&C's direct pricing by a few dollars here and there, but by and large, I don't think we can expect to see them drop significantly at any point in time.

It'd be nice if Supermicro would take a cue from Intel and start listing their power requirements on their pages. Maybe they did, somewhere, but I can't find it.
Click to expand...

I usually ask support. Generally, I look up typical chipset consumption instead. e.g. AMD8131 typical 20W, E7501 typical 25W, etc. A reasonable rule of thumb is 20W per, so nForce2200+2050 is 40W, though I do believe it's actually higher than that just based on the necessity of a fan on the 2200 versus passive on the AMD8132.
 
The TDP is not the actual power consumption. I'm just saying.

Without an example computer and a powermeter you can't actually predict precisely.
 
movax said:
Only thing I could see "Wrong" with getting that Supermicro PSU is that is was probably designed for _server_ configs, meaning no provisions for powering high-end GPUs....probably.
Click to expand...

Probably nothing wrong with it.

The reason I didn't get a Supermicro for my H8QC8 is that they required a 1 KW with two native EPS12V which clearly is not a workable requirement. So I didn't see any reason to throw any money on them if they won't be precise enough.

I sucessfully used a OCZ 520 W powerstream, a 700W Zippy and I now got (didn't try yet) a new OCZ 700 W GXS.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top