IMPORTANT--- Dell 2405FPW and other 24" LCD's!!!!!!!

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Bo_Fox

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Here's a request that I hope LCD manufacturers will take into consideration. This request is catered towards the gamer enthusiasts and the graphic professionalists.

The request is that the refresh rate on all LCD's be increased to at least 120 Hz, at the maximum resolution (usually 1920x1200 or 1080p).

It can defintely be done. Just look at the new giant 70" LCD TV. It supports 1080P full resolution (1920x1080), at an amazing 120 Hz.
http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20060821_0000281216#
It offers a 2000:1 contrast, and an advertised 180-degree viewing angle. The "doubled" refresh rate is there for a reason--so that the watcher can keep up with intense sports action on TV (like watching that hockey puck being passed along hockey players in 1080p without losing track of the puck).

If Samsung can make a mammoth 70-inch 1920x1080 LCD run at 120 Hz, they can definitely do it with 24" LCD's, no problem.

This increased refresh feature will certainly require the full use of a DUAL-link DVI connection (like with 30" LCD's that use 2560x1600 rez). It should also help the "input lag" problem found on so many higher-resolution LCD's of today. The Overdrive feature should be thrown out into the garbage, since it is probably the major contribution to the infamous input lag issue.

We're not going to wait another 5-10 years and see if OLED's will solve the problems. It's already been solved with this new 70" LCD by Samsung, once and for all.
 
Why do gamers need higher refresh rates? Why is it absolutely significant for online players in fast-paced 3D games?

read the below:


Bo_Fox said:
Given the absurd "input lag" on most LCD monitors, Vsync must be turned off to eliminate most of that lag. Not all of it is eliminated, but it is significantly reduced to levels comparable to that of CRT monitors (no longer like the undesirably handicapping 60+ ms lag).

Ok, now have you guys figured it out yet? If not, then here it goes...

With Vsync turned off at only 60 Hz, it produces severe screen tearing in virtually all of the 3D games you play. The screen tearing is so horrible it's disgusting. Increasing the refresh to 75 Hz reduces a lot of the screen tearing, since the monitor is now able to refresh double buffers at a much faster rate compared to the internal fill rate. (Triple buffering unfortunately causes additional lag, and does little to reduce screen tearing).
Click to expand...
 
What you suggest will require dual link. So monitors with dual link will cost a fair bit more. Most people won't care about 120hz and the more expensive monitors will be hard to move.

Possibly this might show up on 17" and 19" monitors first that could pull 120Hz without dual link.

A lot of input lag has nothing to do with 60Hz. It seems more like bad design. I had a 2405, it lags. Nothing to do with 60Hz, I can run the CRT at 60Hz, no lag. I have tried a couple of other LCDs at 60Hz and didn't notice lag. The 2405 was just a bad design.
 
Right. It's most likely the chip with the overdrive feature that causes lots of lag--bad design! Overdrive is starting to get a bad name overall.

If we do not speak up and state our demands, then the LCD manufacturers will not know what we really want. Yes, it could be expensive to make 120 Hz dual-link 24" LCD's, but there is definitely a market for it. Samsung went through all the trouble in making a 70" one. The market is going to be just as big as those who buy $400+ video cards, which have risen in popularity like mad. Many of us with Dell 2405FPW's are itching to sell our monitors when a better one comes out, in order to replace it. Say, a 120Hz gamer version with no input lag or Overdrive feature is going to be $1000. Most of us will probably get rid of the 2405FPW right away for say, $550 on Ebay and dish out the extra 400 bucks to upgrade to the newer, faster models that finally do gamers justice.

By the way, anybody know what kind of panel the new 70" Samsung LCD is based on? I would guess PVA since Samsung does not produce S-IPS panels, but for it to claim 180 degrees viewing angle is amazing for PVA panels which are usually worse than S-IPS panels.
 
Note the 70" doesn't have dual link. It just double scans the 60Hz Input. Which gives you nothing that you want.

As far as 180 degree BS. It is just that BS. I bought both a Dell 2007fp and 2405. Both PVA that claimed 178 degrees. Yet was more like 10 degrees. That stat is meaningless BS.

Dual link just for faster refresh is not going to happen. You might see the double scan to reduce motion smear.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the refresh rate used on CRTs becuase CRTs have to redraw the entire screen xx times per second (giving visible flickering at lower levels).. LCDs don't have to "refresh" anything, only update what has changed.

Faster redraws would require faster pixels, eh? So 120Hz isn't going to do much unless the pixels can switch from one intensity to the next in around 6ms.. not just overdrived gtg.

I haven't really studied LCDs in-depth, but it just doesn't seem to apply in the same way as with CRTs.
 
Hey, I have seen some LCD TV's with virtually perfect viewing angles recently on display at Sears, CompUSA, etc.. With that contrast ratio of 2000:1 and super brightness of 500+ cd/m^2, viewing angles should be much less of a problem anyway.
 
This isnt important at all. LCD's do not refresh like CRT's do. Why dont some people understand this?
 
UrielDagda, you do not need any correcting.. but... when we play 3D games, the whole screen is being internally updated at a given fps. The refresh rate of a LCD is the maximum rate at which the screen can be updated.

If we want to play online shooter games, we would be well-advised to turn off Vsync in order to reduce the severe lag. With Vysnc off, the image tearing becomes unbearable on LCD's due to the limit of "updates" at only 60 Hz. As any gamer would tell you, it is pretty much the only way to win in serious online shooter games.

See, I have two computers--one with a Dell 2405FPW, and another one with a Sony GDM-FW900. Both are 24". I mainly use the CRT monitor for online gaming, since I can play at a high enough refresh (95Hz or greater) rate so that there is not nearly as much screen tearing with Vsync turned off. Yes, enabling Vsync still causes lag on CRT's--not just LCD's. Another thing is that turning on triple buffering does not seem to cause any lag at all on CRT's, but it does partially contribute to the input lag on the Dell 2405FPW due to the Overdrive algorithm having to process 3 buffers instead of only 2. If I want to play fast-paced online games on my LCD, then I have to put up with the horrible screen tearing that makes it dis-orienting and harder to see my opponents. Even running 3DMark 2003 benchmark with excessive screen tearing (since Vsync must be disabled for that benchmark) makes it look ugly compared to my CRT. Just see for yourself.

With Vsync ON, the input "monitor lag" should be no more than 30 ms for all kinds of monitors. However, with this Dell 24" LCD and most other 24" LCD's, it exceeds 60 ms. That is just like adding 60+ to your ping! Who wants that?? Again, with this LCD, you have to choose between excessive screen tearing with Vysnc disabled, or 60+ ms lag with Vysnc enabled.

I only really like to play slower-paced single-player games on this LCD with Vsync enabled, where the ping times are not of much importance. Nevertheless, my fast-paced racing games still require me to turn off Vsync.

Let's just pray and hope that an LCD manufacturer like Viewsonic or Benq or Hyundai will realize the needs of gamers and make a dual-link 24" for them! Let's stop being so pessimistic--Snowdog, you need to keep in mind that the 30" is dual-link, so why not the same for 24"? It does not have to feature 2560x1600 rez. It can simply be 1920x1200 at 100 Hz or 120 Hz, so that we can actually enjoy our games like we could with CRT's.

Right now, it's just a pathetic trade-off between excessive screen tearing OR severe input lag.
 
fallguy said:
This isnt important at all. LCD's do not refresh like CRT's do. Why dont some people understand this?
Click to expand...

fallguy, you are missing the whole point of vsync issues and input lag issues.

What you are talking about is that LCD's do not flicker at 60Hz like CRT's do. Of course, non-gamers are just grateful that LCD's do not flicker--why should they care about anything else?
 
Bo_Fox said:
Another thing is that turning on triple buffering does not seem to cause any lag at all on CRT's, but it does partially contribute to the input lag on the Dell 2405FPW due to the Overdrive algorithm having to process 3 buffers instead of only 2.
Click to expand...

Overdrive is in the monitor. Off-screen buffering occurs, under software control, in the video card. The monitor never even sees the back buffer(s)--this is the whole point of back buffering. Enabling triple buffering will have absolutely no effect on the overdrive circuit, nor will the presense of an ovedrive circuit effect triple buffering.

With Vsync ON, the input "monitor lag" should be no more than 30 ms for all kinds of monitors. However, with this Dell 24" LCD and most other 24" LCD's, it exceeds 60 ms.
Click to expand...

That's because the panel in the 2407 has an effective response time of 50ms. You're losing 50ms just from using that monitor, and an addtional 16ms from using double buffering, for a total of 66ms Even if the Dell monitor would accept a 120Hz refresh rate, you'd still be looking at 58ms of latency just because the panel is so slow. You're trying to solve the wrong problem here: what you need is a faster monitor.

What's necessary for good LCD gaming performance is a fast panel, a video card that can sustain >60FPS in all environments, and vsync enabled. The reasons for using a fast monitor are self evident. Vsync is required to avoid tearing. A fast video card is required so as not to get stuck in the refresh rate/N jail that results from using vsync with too slow a video card.

Get a fast S-IPS or TN panel and a high-end SLI/Crossfire setup and you won't have any more problems.
 
Overwind said:
That's because the panel in the 2407 has an effective response time of 50ms. You're losing 50ms just from using that monitor, and an addtional 16ms from using double buffering, for a total of 66ms Even if the Dell monitor would accept a 120Hz refresh rate, you'd still be looking at 58ms of latency just because the panel is so slow. You're trying to solve the wrong problem here: what you need is a faster monitor.

What's necessary for good LCD gaming performance is a fast panel, a video card that can sustain >60FPS in all environments, and vsync enabled. The reasons for using a fast monitor are self evident. Vsync is required to avoid tearing. A fast video card is required so as not to get stuck in the refresh rate/N jail that results from using vsync with too slow a video card.

Get a fast S-IPS or TN panel and a high-end SLI/Crossfire setup and you won't have any more problems.
Click to expand...

It is interesting how double buffering gives an additional 16ms of lag (or 8ms when combined overall for a 66ms total). On my X1900XTX, when I enable triple buffering, it seems to give some additional lag which is noticeable--especially on my 2405FPW, though according to what you mentioned about triple buffering having nothing to do with LCD's, it could have been caused by the video card instead. At 60 Hz, the delay of triple buffering is an additional 32 ms (or two frames behind being displayed). You did not mention the solution to the refresh rate/N jail with Vsync enabled, which is triple buffering. Sometimes, with Vsync disabled, triple buffering appears to slightly reduce the screen tearing (but at the cost at a little lag which is not as bad as with Vsync ON).

Yeah, we need a fast panel that is not cheated through overdrive. The true 50ms overall "internal" response time is just HORRIBLE!!! Thanks man for your reply.
 
If Dell offered that PBP feature (in addition to PIP), why the heck couldn't Dell have done it correctly by ensuring that the resolution is aligned with the pixels? Better yet, implement a driver support so that if the PC desktop is displayed in one of the two screens in PBP mode, the display can be clear and sharp at the correct resolution.

See, I simply divide the vertical lines by two, thus giving me a 960x600 resolution. That resolution is selected for the desktop, so that the aspect ratio is maintained at 1:1 when the screen is split into PBP. It should accurately fit all the pixels, resolution-wise, with crisp text and sharp image. However, the text ends up extremely blurry when that is done. 1920x1200 actually looks a little sharper when shrunken down to the split screen of PBP which is 960x600 pixels in actual size. It must have to do with OFFICIALLY supporting the 960x600 resolution at a 1:1 aspect ratio, and then maintaining that 1:1 960x600 rez in PBP. That is why I think PBP is practically useless with desktop computing, unless you want to use it for watching two videos from separate sources next to each other.

It's a good example of the "hardware" guys implementing that feature, and then having nothing be done on the software driver side (software guys doing nothing about PBP).
 
Guidelines for playing fast-paced online games:

Vsync ---> disabled

Vsync ----> enabled = +30-60 ms of additional lag for ANY computer/monitor

The lag is especially higher with Dell 2405FPW's with Vsync enabled. As any professional gamer will tell you, they always play with Vsync off no matter how fast their computers are.


So, here it is with Vsync disabled:

60 Hz refresh rate = HORRIBLE screen tearing all over!

85+ Hz refresh rate = much reduced screen tearing

140+ Hz refresh rate= almost NO screen tearing in all games, at 30fps or 200fps.


Most LCD's allow only 60 Hz, so we all experience horrible screen tearing when playing a game or watching a 3DMark2003 benchmark run. There is considerably less screen tearing at 85 Hz on CRT monitors, and MUCH less screen tearing at say, 120 Hz. 3DMark forces that Vsync is disabled, so there's no choice here. There's also no choice if you really want good "ping" (the least delay) in fast-paced online games.

Another thing is that if you want to use triple buffering with Vsync ON in order to enjoy stable frame rates between 30 and 60 fps, it is well-advised to turn up the refresh rate so that the lag caused by triple buffering will be reduced. At 60 Hz, triple buffering brings an additional 32ms of lag. At 120 Hz, it causes only 16 ms of delay.
 
I'm really glad I came across this thread today, let me explain why. I just recieved my new 2407fpw friday and finally got around to setting it up last night. I like the panel and all however I noticed a few things that I hadn't noticed as much with my l90d+. Most of which has been discussed here in this very thread. Now bear in mind I only played Bf2 and fear combat for any extended period of time so far but the tearing is more noticable on this screen than it was on my 19". I tried enabling vsync and it helped the tearing but then of course introduced more input lag which completely sucks, Thing is with my 19" i never used vsync and had (some) tearing but not like this 24". Not to mention the motion blur when turned fast(ugh). it just seems that all the small things that annoyed me with the l90d+ are even more exaggerated with this screen.

I also notice another issue when doing a fast 360 degree turn. If there are any houses or large textures in my fov, during a part of my 360 turn, when the screen comes around to draw say the houses it seems as if its skipping frames. I don't know any other way to describe it. I'm not dropping fps much but yet it gets a little choppy. Now, once again, I noticed this slightly on my 19" but much more so on the 24". is there anything I can do to alleviate this?

The system im running is in my sig, only thing I haven't updated is the monitor yet.
Any advice would be appreciated guys. Thanks.
 
The few advantages that the 2405FPW has over the L90D+ are: 1) much better 8-bit panel, compared to the 6-bit panel of L90D+ and other TN films that advertise "16.2" million colors, which is a strange number to have been chosen instead of the 16.7 million colors displayed in 8-bit panels, 2) slightly less ghosting when scrolling the pages--the text does not "ghost" as it is being scrolled across the screen.. 3) slightly better viewing angles, but it still is not enough for this enormous 24" that should have been 160 degrees instead of only 60 degrees with identically accurate color image represenation, 4) the obvious 24" size and 1920x1200 resolution.

The HUGE disadvantage is the slow PVA panel that slows things down overall. Overdrive does not help at all, especially if the whole screen is moving at once as with full-screen 3D games and Vsync enabled. So, with Vsync disabled, the ideal solution to get rid of the tearing would be to increase the refresh above 60Hz. The tearing would still be bad on CRT monitors at 60Hz, but for some reason, it is just horrible on this 24" panel. (Note: I still need to do more research on Overdrive technology with PVA panels that have 50ms effective response time.)

In order to reduce the input lag, just get a really fast video card that can maintain the minimum 60 frames per second in whatever game you play, and make sure that Triple Buffering is turned off. Triple Buffering is only good if your video card cannot maintain the min. 60 fps, and prevents it from reverting to 1/2 the frame rate when it is between 30-60fps, or 1/3 when it's between 20-30 fps, or 1/4 when between 15-20 fps.

If a faster video card, CPU, memory still do not help, try increasing your mouse input rate or getting a faster mouse. Also, disable the "mouse smoothing" and "reduce mouse lag" features. Some say that trying to force 100 Hz refresh rate in the driver settings with this 2405FPW can get rid of the input lag problem, but it definitely does not make a difference for me (the monitor does not support 100 Hz anyway). This 2405FPW just hates Vsync, period. With Vsync enabled, there is wild lag, ranging anywhere from the minimum 60+ms to perhaps 300ms stutters even with my X1900XTX card. With Vsync disabled, the input lag is no longer "wild", but then the screen tearing is excessive on this monitor @ 60Hz.

The ultimate solution is probably to just upgrade to a faster S-IPS panel, hopefully one with a higher refresh rate in the future. If you can bear it, get a Sony GDM-FW900 24" CRT monitor, which is the best CRT ever made. It is probably the best CRT that will have ever been made this century, unless some "plasma" computer monitors come out although they are not CRT's. That's my secret plan--I hope you didn't read it! Shhh.....
 
Bo_Fox said:
The few advantages that the 2405FPW has over the L90D+ are: 1) much better 8-bit panel, compared to the 6-bit panel of L90D+ and other TN films that advertise "16.2" million colors, which is a strange number to have been chosen instead of the 16.7 million colors displayed in 8-bit panels, 2) slightly less ghosting when scrolling the pages--the text does not "ghost" as it is being scrolled across the screen.. 3) slightly better viewing angles, but it still is not enough for this enormous 24" that should have been 160 degrees instead of only 60 degrees with identically accurate color image represenation, 4) the obvious 24" size and 1920x1200 resolution.

The HUGE disadvantage is the slow PVA panel that slows things down overall. Overdrive does not help at all, especially if the whole screen is moving at once as with full-screen 3D games and Vsync enabled. So, with Vsync disabled, the ideal solution to get rid of the tearing would be to increase the refresh above 60Hz. The tearing would still be bad on CRT monitors at 60Hz, but for some reason, it is just horrible on this 24" panel. (Note: I still need to do more research on Overdrive technology with PVA panels that have 50ms effective response time.)

In order to reduce the input lag, just get a really fast video card that can maintain the minimum 60 frames per second in whatever game you play, and make sure that Triple Buffering is turned off. Triple Buffering is only good if your video card cannot maintain the min. 60 fps, and prevents it from reverting to 1/2 the frame rate when it is between 30-60fps, or 1/3 when it's between 20-30 fps, or 1/4 when between 15-20 fps.

If a faster video card, CPU, memory still do not help, try increasing your mouse input rate or getting a faster mouse. Also, disable the "mouse smoothing" and "reduce mouse lag" features. Some say that trying to force 100 Hz refresh rate in the driver settings with this 2405FPW can get rid of the input lag problem, but it definitely does not make a difference for me (the monitor does not support 100 Hz anyway). This 2405FPW just hates Vsync, period. With Vsync enabled, there is wild lag, ranging anywhere from the minimum 60+ms to perhaps 300ms stutters even with my X1900XTX card. With Vsync disabled, the input lag is no longer "wild", but then the screen tearing is excessive on this monitor @ 60Hz.

The ultimate solution is probably to just upgrade to a faster S-IPS panel, hopefully one with a higher refresh rate in the future. If you can bear it, get a Sony GDM-FW900 24" CRT monitor, which is the best CRT ever made. It is probably the best CRT that will have ever been made this century, unless some "plasma" computer monitors come out although they are not CRT's. That's my secret plan--I hope you didn't read it! Shhh.....
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input dude, I appreciate the info. All in all I like the screen just theres a few oddities that I mentioned in my above post that took me back a little. I mean the gaming at 1900 res or even 1600 res in some games is just amazing and I love it. The only thing is the tearing sucks, but hey I lived with it on my other screen and I will learn to live with it here. I only had my other screen for a year and a half and so I'm sure when better tech comes out in a year or two I will probably upgrade then too, :)
 
Explanation?

Does anybody have a real explanation for such "slow-down" that obviously seems to be in excess of 100ms during quick turns in the video shown in the link in my above post?

An educated guess would be appreciated, but nothing is better than some proof.

After watching it closely several times, it shows that the more intensive the graphics are (the lower the frame rates are), the greater the slow-down "lag" is on the LCD monitor! The CRT would display it, and then the delay is even greater on the 24" LCD; thus it added further slow-down to the already dropped frame rates during a quick turn near the end of the video.

And then the 24" LCD catches up with the CRT right after the turn has been done and the delay is probably only 2 or 3 frames behind instead of say, 8 or more.

That is exactly what I have been experiencing. If my X1900XTX slows down with quality Adaptive AA turned on in the newer games at 1920x1200 with Vsync on, then the 2405FPW lag worsens, *adding* to the slow-down.
 
read the above, please?? comments, I'm awaiting! Maybe there are even some real engineers who read the forums... I would just like some affirmation that it was well-received by at least some of you tech people.
 
Bo_Fox said:
Yo guys.. ya know about that Sony announced the PS3 to support 120 Hz and 120 frame rate in its games?

Whoa man, there's a prototype LCD that will support 120Hz! It's Samsung with its damn 70" LCD! Wonder how much that 1080P screen will be??? $5000 or $40000? Somewhere in between?

http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20060821_0000281216#

Whoa!
Click to expand...

Well 57 inch LCD will run you $15000 so I would expect it to be around 30,000 or so. Plus shipping which will be ridiculous.
 
Are there any updates on better and newer 24" LCD panels being released in the near-future?

How about that A03 revision of Dell 2407WFP? The 60Hz refresh rate sucks, but is there an actual list of fixes in the A03 that any of you guys can confirm?

-Color banding, cured on all of A03 revisions?
-Component/composite video input issues, cured on all of A03 revisions?
- any other issues resolved?


- No new issues in the A03?
 
Bo_Fox said:
Are there any updates on better and newer 24" LCD panels being released in the near-future?

How about that A03 revision of Dell 2407WFP? The 60Hz refresh rate sucks, but is there an actual list of fixes in the A03 that any of you guys can confirm?

-Color banding, cured on all of A03 revisions?
-Component/composite video input issues, cured on all of A03 revisions?
- any other issues resolved?


- No new issues in the A03?
Click to expand...

Banding is gone as far as I can see when using the desktop mode.
I haven't tried the component inputs.
 
Oh yeah, the banding was not an issue in desktop mode in A02 revision. Is it gone in gaming/movie mode on A03's? thanks
 
Bo_Fox said:
Are there any updates on better and newer 24" LCD panels being released in the near-future?

How about that A03 revision of Dell 2407WFP? The 60Hz refresh rate sucks, but is there an actual list of fixes in the A03 that any of you guys can confirm?

-Color banding, cured on all of A03 revisions?
-Component/composite video input issues, cured on all of A03 revisions?
- any other issues resolved?


- No new issues in the A03?
Click to expand...

What other issues would there be for the 2407?
 
I hooked up my 360 to the component inputs and I'm not sure what problems I'm looking for. I thought it looked ok 1080i was a little jumpy. I changed it to 720p and it was nice looking.

Anyone have examples of what to look for with the component inputs?
 
The 2405 was just a bad design.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily a 'bad' design. Could be a combination of poor quality control and cheap components too.You have to take into consideration that it IS a dell. :rolleyes:
 
Optimal color settings for the 2405...

If you want a better picture quality that beats the factory settings, access the monitor control panels by entering the On-screen display menu and change the color settings there. Use the buttons on the panel to access the Color Settings and then go to User Preset.

For Red, set 44-45 (I chose low 45)
For Green, set 50-51 (I chose high 50)
For Blue, set 46-47 (I chose low 47)

It makes the monitor a little brighter overall so you might need to turn down the brightness if viewing it in a dark room. After testing each of the colors, I think that it offers the most accurate colors that the monitor can display (although the greys can appear very slightly yellowish). The colors are far more realistic and more vibrant.. as perfect as the monitor can get. It is certainly worth it despite the barely-noticeable "yellow" hue added to the greys.

I think it's the limitation of the 2405FPW wihtout adjusting the driver's gamma settings. Obviously, Dell calibrated the factory settings in a way to completely get rid of the yellowish hue. It is better to have lower color quality than to have some picky reviewers complain and give it poor ratings just because of the yellowish greys. Personally, I would far rather have the optimal color quality for Red, Green, and Blue than have perfect greys. Perhaps it is a manufacturing design flaw or an actual limitation on this kind of technology? Anybody with better knowledge should be able to answer this. I think it's just a design flaw, since slightly reducing blue and green completely gets rid of this problem (mostly blue in this case, though). Perhaps it has to do with the 6500K fluorescent tube back lighting, which is a little warm (yellowish) color temperature.

Do you like my settings? Please let me know what you think, and if you think you have better settings, please share!
 
Nobody cares about the 2405FPW now?? Any comments or suggestions on the settings in the above post?
 
How come I see no mention of FlipQueueSize (in ATI terms, I think it's called RenderAhead for Nvidia?) in this thread? Doesn't setting this to 0 when VSYNC is enabled effectively reduce mouse lag caused or is this totally unrelated?
 
Are you guys saying the Dell 24" isn't a good FPS gaming monitor? I was thinking of getting one for an Xmas gift to myself.

I thought it evens comes with Dell's XPS super gaming computer?!?!
 
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