Vista Explorer only supports 16'384 File Copy Operations !!!

simmons2

n00b
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
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When reaching this hard-limit of 16'384 files copied by Vista Explorer, people has dangerous troubles with Vista (loss of data without warning etc. !!!) - and has to re-boot immediatly.

Even if you copy large amounts of files in smaller pieces you would have to re-boot each time after about 16'384 files !!!

With Vista Explorer you cannot copy more then 16'384 files to / from CD/DVD - not to / from an external HD/MemoryStick/or other devices !!! Good luck with your Backups and Restores !!! Good luck to bring in to Vista your Data from former OS !!!

16'384 can be reached after minutes, houres, days, months - it's just a ticking bomb all the time !!!

16'384 is a limit over ALL copy operations that we do with Vista Explorer since the last system boot - it's NOT a limit for each disk or so, and it's NOT a limit for one SINGLE copy-task !!!

Congratulations Microsoft !

PLEASE REPLY HERE WHEN YOU EXPERIANCE THE SAME KIND OF PROBLEM - SO MICROSOFT COULD WAKE UP !!!

simmons
 
Hello Gatticus

- do you think copying files is something an OS should be able to do with his STANDARD procedures ?

- do you think the AMOUNT of files that can be copied with standard features should be limited by hardware ressources or by software counters ?

- do you think exhausted limits should unstabilize the OS ?

Your proposal is (eventually) a bypass, thanks for it. But i am looking forward to a Vista that does well for what Microsoft asks a lot of money.

simmons

P.S.: how do i explain to my users how / why to deal with RoboCopy or something else then Vista Explorer - just for copying files from A to B ?
 
I love to rag on Vista like the next person. However, I would like to rag on it for issues that actually exist. Would you mind linking to some place with 3rd party verification for this issue.
 
I have another opinion - but this is OK for me. How do i delete this (unuseful ?) thread ?

simmons
 
nah simmons. I think it's a very useful thread if the issue is true. Like drizzt81 said, are there other places where this error is documented?

If it is a Vista issue then it is a very big poo poo on MS's part.
 
That's kind of strange....i copied almost all my files from my 2nd hdd back to my Vista boot drive and it was well over 30000 files and they all copied....
 
Vista Explorer only supports 16'384 File Copy Operations !!!

Lol... is this like the hook man stories you tell around a camp fire when you are in the boyscouts? Sounds like the evil fisherman with a hook hand that lives in the forest to me.

IE linkie or no believie..

As others have said. it sounds like rubbish. To compound....

An operating system treats an read request for a file and a write request for a file as two seperate events. You read from location A and write to location B. And for almost all files a read request is actually processed incrementally multiple times and the same with a write request. It has to be started and stopped and resumed multiple times as other IO operations take place.

So really if you copy.. lets say a 50 meg file from location a to location b you have performed to the OS hundreds of thousands if not millions of read/write requests.

Take a pill and you will be cool.
 
Thanks Grimlaking - maybe a pill could help. For me or for Microsoft ?

===

Sorry drizzt81 - my english understanding has some lecks !! But know i understand - you would like to have some others opinion.

Really that's not easy - because it's almost unbeleavible. But here some links (it's sometimes driven be myself):

- http://cgi.zdnet.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7081 ( verify with the LAST post, from BerndN - i do NOT know him)

- http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1263544&SiteID=1 ( verify with post from HReg, i do NOT know him)

- http://forums.techarena.in/showthread.php?t=685888 (that's a thread from another person, that i do NOT know)

- http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1157908 (that's YOUR form, the thread was opened by someone i do NOT know - MY thread about 16'384 is just some kind of Resume / Qunitesence etc. )

- http://www.windowsbbs.com/showthread.php?t=62411 (thread from someone i do NOT know - they do NOT know so much as we (or i) know NOW and as i have condensed HERE)

Microsoft told me NOT to be able to reproduce the problem. As i personally CAN reproduce it on DIFFERENT hardware, also after basic installation without any schnick-schnack, with DIFFERENT Vista versions - i suppose it's REALLY a problem - a big one - maybe even a achitectural or design problem.

Let me know if you need some more info's. From my side i will certenly inform if i know more.

Thanks all of you - and who wishes to be helpful makes a 10-minutes test:

- make a dir somewhere
- open notepad and save in the new dir (.txt-file can be small or even empty)
- point with Vista Explorer into that dir
- make 16 times the following: ctrl-a ctrl-c ctrl-v (just to multiply your notepad-file up to 16'384 files)

The test consumes more and more time, as more files must be copied. PROBABLY your Vista Explorer begins motzing when around 16'684 files in the new folder.

Re-boot your system after that test ! Otherwise Vista Explorer echoes copy-actions as OK without doing anything etc. etc.

AND PLEASE: REPORT HERE WHAT HAPENED ON YOUR MACHINE (Out of memory or NOT out of memory)

simmons
 
In the link I posted for Robocopy it says this: "Ability to copy large quantities of files that would normally crash the built-in XCOPY utility."

If large amounts of file copying can crash Xcopy then I would guess that it can/will cause explorer to crash too.
 
grim, I agree with you about the linkage and I would assume something like this would be caught in Q/A if not by a customer by now. However, there's so much junk going on in a copy operation (cacheing, write verification, rights, yaddy yaddy ya) I would believe it if there was a bug in some action associated with copying (memory leak or whatnot).


ninjaedit: and simmons posted that as I was typing this.. Thanks for the links and the procedure to reproduce. Off to test. :D
 
Hello Grimlaking

I would like to see a Vista (an Operating System) who "treats an read request for a file and a write request for a file as two seperate events" etc. etc. (your words). But that was on boyscouts and fisherman's time. Today it's different. HERE is the problem.

And it is NOT a problem of MegaBytes, it's the problem of the AMOUNT OF FILES.

I suppose Vista fills up internal tables of copied/moved files "over the time" - and it does NEVER free's those tables - as boyscout and fishermen has done. With resons as: we have new technology, new architecture, new design of our OS. Bullshit !!!

simmons
 
This is very odd. The more i use Vista the more i love it. But latley alot of people have been finding bugs that screw up precious files on your system. Im starting to worry now. Although i never really copy anything, i have gotten that bug when i tried to extract a rar file containing alot of files.
 
Interesting.. Everything is a forum.

I'll be sure to pass this on to one of my techs in the office with a vista test machine to find out for sure if it is a bug. I know a few that would find this one interesting.

I have to wonder if it is a limit of ntfs or fat32 and or of the OS itself?

Does it matter if it is on the same drive or different drives

And yes read and writes are processed as two seperate types of tasks within the windows OS's. I can not speak to the linux or other flavors as I simply don't know for a fact. The same reason why disabling part of a virusscanner IE on read or on write will then allow some viruses to get through because of the flaws in code that they exploit. They still must have a read or write function.

I am going to pass this on to someone in the office to test on a vista box right now.

Looks like my likely candidates are in a meeting I will try to find someone to confirm.
 
While trying since January 30 to bring lot's of files into Vista from a W2K HD, also by an external USB-HD, i had the same kind of problems (16'384). I then tried xcopy and/or RoboCopy ... without success !!! With the same problems !!!!!! (I am NOT shure if i also used RoboCopy - maybe someone else could check that out).

The problem is probably deeper in the OS then Vista Explorer. It could be even a architectural / design problem, as noted days, already weeks before.

simmons
 
No it doesn't. You do know how if you copy and paste like the way you prescribed, Explorer has to check and rename each and every file you're copying right? That takes a lot of text parsing.


Anyways, to refute you, I modified your test slightly such that Explorer doesn't need to rename the files as much (only a few folder names).

I take your 16,384 and raise you 32,768.

The folders containing the files (2048 in each folder).

Here we go!

Seems good so far.

And here too.

Another successful copy.



There IS another bug in here though. See if you can spot it.
 
I'm copying my Program Files folder to another drive right now. That's ca. 60,000 files. Mind you my box has been up for nine days now, so I'm probably already pretty close to that "limit."

I'll be able to post my findings in about thirty-three minutes according to Explorer.
 
Hello Grimlaking

- it is on the same disk

- it is from disk (physical) to disk (physical)

- it is from disk to CD / DCD

- it is from disk to USB-Disk

- it is all vice versa

- it is from RAR Extraction, if you believe member serialtoon

- it is from XP-Backup Extraction !!! (that's also MY experiance) (to read XP-Backup-Files you first have to download some code from Microsoft - they are as stupid as decades before !!!)

simmons
 
chronoreverse

Interesting test. Could you validte the presense of the files for me?

Also for so many files.. even at 1 byte per file they should be taking up collectively 16k.


Anyway yea could you simply confirm that the files are there?

I wonder if this has more to do with windows search built into vista.
 
@As I Lay Dying
I'm in Japanese Locale. That changes the \ symbol to Yen with certain fonts.

@Grimlaking
They're zero-byte files because I made an empty text file using simmons' method except I quickly realized the parsing that Explorer had to do. I'll redo the test with 1KB files since I've already deleted these. Give me five minutes.
 
Well I guess I need to try this on a SCSI raid array with external raid card. To see if it is a function of Vista or something else.:eek:
 
I havn't had any problems backing up my photos to an external drive, or my network server. Thats about 33,000 photos. I am however trying to reproduce your results right now. But its hard in this bumpy, loud U-Haul truck.
 
Hello ChronoReverse

Could you tell me something about your environment ?

What OS exactly (Home ... Ultimate; 32 bit - 64 bit; Final, Beta, rc-xxx) ?

I cannot find the other error you talk about - will search another day. Just wondering about a special sign after D: ... something like PEACE ?

Shure, my test is somewhat stupid - but easy to describe. Beleave me, i have made others !

simmons
 
Vista Ultimate 32bit
Pentium D 820
2GB RAM
80GB Seagate Barracuda IV

The new text file =)


In all its 1KB glory


A little bit of copy-pasta later


The starting set


Go Go Go


And here they are


It takes up some space when they're not zero bytes. Can you figure out my cluster size from this?
 
Is the bug where the properties tab shows location or the fact that is says 0 bytes?

Also, I had problems adding my music to itunes. I'm not at home right now but I'll check how many files it was when i get home. I thought it was just an issue with itunes running on vista 64. It would crash every time i tried to add large numbers at a time. When I added them in smaller amounts at a time it was fine.

I did however copy my whole my documents folder over from my laptop which is running XP Pro and the only problems I had there was when I lost power. Again I don't know exactly how many files there were but I'm sure it was over 16,384.
 
Hello all

when, in the next 120 minutes, NOBODY verifies the problem, then i will do the following:

- take another pc
- de-mount anything but mainboard, ram, vga, cd/dvd, ps/2-keyboard, ps/2-mouse, screen and ide-disk
- boot with vista business final german
- clear disk
- make ONE partition
- install vista
- run my test as described above
==
- i do NOT put the pc on the net or some other connection (bluetooth, serial, parallel etc.)
- i do NOT put any external disk/cd/dvd/memory-stick into/onto the system until test has finished
==
and then i report here what happened.

Is this OK for you - do you have suggestions what else to do for isolating the problem ?

REMEMBER: i am not the only one reporting those problems !

simmons
 
I'm still copying using the method you posted (ctrl-a, ctrl-c, ctrl-v) and am on the last copy to get the 16,384 files. However I have to go to lunch soon and wont be able to play with for about an hour.

I could see this turning into a thread of system-specs, vista versions, and patch levels. :p
 
@simmons2
Don't do the test using your method. You're actually stalling Vista with the parsing and sorting of filenames.

Do what I did instead. c+a,c+c,c+v as you said until you get 2048 files. Then Copy and Paste the folder until you have 8 of them. That's the same number of files. Then copy and paste all 8 folders at once.


@mezpo
Nope, neither of those are bugs.

Hint: the bug appeared in the zero byte file copy but not the 1KB one.
 
Hello mezpo

in my cases i does NOT help to do it in smaller amouts of files. As soon as that limit has been reached, icannot copy ONE SINGLE file any more.

My HD Partition's have enough of free space. My RAM is free for about 2.5 GB.

simmons
 
I just copied my log files from my CSS Server to my vista pc, the server has been running for almost 2 years and there is 56893 log files (ranging from 5KB-700KB)

Copying them from 1 harddrive to another.........no problem
Copying them from the same harddrive to a different folder on the same harddrive .........no problem
Copying them from a USB harddrive to my system drive (C) ........no problem
Copying them from a USB harddrive to my D Drive ......no problem.

The log files will not fit on a DVD, so i cant test and to be honest cant be bothered as im sure the results are going to be the same. I also did all the tests without rebooting vista once.
 
Perhaps it is something to do with 3rd party apps initiating the copy?

Any other settings active.. auto restore anything along those lines?
 
For everyone reporting the problem is it only in the naturalized versions of vista? IE German, spanish, itialian, french, cambodian, what have you.
 
Hello mezpo

thanks for your proposal. I have done it in YOUR way long ago - it's the same.

I also have written a small c# application to generate any desired number of dir's with any number of desired files in each of the dir's with any desired amount of bytes in the files. Dirs and files are named very short - so i cannot get long names errors etc.

But sorry - always the same error ! Shit !

But i am glad to hear that some other do NOT have this problem.

Someone mentionned about Search Feature. I do NOT know all the details here concerning Vista - but i have the problem with Disk's that have Indexing =ON and i have the problem that have Indexing =OFF - respectively i have made test's between disk with ON and OFF.

simmons
 
I attempted the exact test you posted. It took just about an hour because of all the file renaming as Chrono pointed out. Explorer.exe was pegged at 50% CPU usage just about the entire time.

The computer I tested it on was 'Helios' in my sig, running Vista Ultimate 64bit. No issues whatsoever. Windows search indexing was turned on, and this was done on the desktop which is generally an indexed folder.

P.S. "Hello World" ftw.
 
If it is a short C app you may want to post the code so some others can take a peek at it and see. OR link to a safe compiled version that they can test with. Errr if they can read german I would imagine.
 
Hello Grimlaking

I am not shure if i undestand - are you asking ME for the C# test application ? If yes, of course i can post the code right here - there are just a few lines of source code (one must have .net framework 2 or vs2005 to compile it) - let me know if i shall post it - and then give me a couple of minutes to make it english (know it's swiss german).

simmons
 
Since I do not have a vista box with a compiler on it let alone no access to one at work I will have to defray to one of my capable associates in this forum.
 
@ChronoReverse
well I believe your cluster size is 4KB, and I think the bug, here is that its reporting the wrong total filesizes. if there are 32K files and each file is 1KB should not the total file size be 32KB not 352K?

I got your cluster size by total size on disk/1024 to get the units into KB and then dividing by the total number of files.
 
Just to report in.
I did not encounter the problem when copying the 16,384 empty .txt files around.

System Specs:
Vista Business 32-bit
Intel D865PERL
512MB ram
3.2GHZ P4 w/ HT


For everyone reporting the problem is it only in the naturalized versions of vista? IE German, spanish, itialian, french, cambodian, what have you.

nifty question.
 
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