New TJ07 cooling project...could use your help/ideas

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masaville

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
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I ditched my CM Stacker 830 a few days ago for a TJ07, mainly because the stacker was poorly designed for water cooling. I'm in the process of putting getting the TJ07 and am looking for some ideas on the best approach to a dual loop using this case. I can easily use a single loop and keep the 480 rad internal, but I kind of like the idea of adding a second loop to try and get it quieter by running the fans at a lower RPM.

Some pics of my old Stacker setup.
CIMG1694.jpg


A mock-up of what I'm thinking of doing with the TJ07. Green indicates the component is behind, rather in front.
mod3.jpg


As you can see from the mock-up, if I remove the 120.3, rear res, and pump on the tray level I can easily run a loop inside. I'm sure this will decrease noise somewhat as the rad used to be on top, but it may increase heat as well.

I was thinking of splitting the loop and using the PA120.3 for the CPU alone and the 480 below for the GPUs. To do that I'd pretty well have to mount an external res on the rear (no drive bays left) and run the tubing down to the res and then into the pump (drill and add gromets). Alternatively, I could cut a hole through the mesh and the top and run the tubing down and out, but that could get cluttered. Mounting the 120.3 up top is not that difficult now that I've done it already and I can add a nice grill to the top of the rad to polish it off. I'd like to keep it as neat as possible, although that may be somewhat difficult.

I'll have to use some 90 degree fittings for the pump at the bottom, the entry to the GPU block and possibly in a few other places as well. By positioning the innovatek res a little lower I can run the 480 rad into the inlet and the keep the outlet flush with the pump, eliminating any bending in the tubing. From the bottom pump, I can run tubing up into the bottom GPU and then back down from the top GPU into the 480 inlet.

Anway, if you have any good ideas I've love to hear them before I start drilling a bunch of holes. :)
 
Is there room to put the PSU in the front of the case below the drive bays? If so, you might be able to put both rads internally in the bottom (one on each side). It's not 100% ideal, as only one would be getting purely external air, but it wouldn't be that big of a deal, because there is so much radiator relative to your cooling load.

I fyou had the PA120.3 sucking air in, and blow through the 480 to the outside, you could even have one of the four fans on the 480 blowing relatively cool air through the BIX. There might still be room in the bottom for one or two pumps. If you ran both loops off a common multiport reservoir where the top part of the Tank-o-matic is, you might even be able to put everything inside. That'd be pretty slick.
 
I replied to your post over on XS, but I think this is overkill. You can cool all your components with a PA120.2 and a PA120.3 (360GTX).
 
nonlnear said:
Is there room to put the PSU in the front of the case below the drive bays? If so, you might be able to put both rads internally in the bottom (one on each side). It's not 100% ideal, as only one would be getting purely external air, but it wouldn't be that big of a deal, because there is so much radiator relative to your cooling load.

I fyou had the PA120.3 sucking air in, and blow through the 480 to the outside, you could even have one of the four fans on the 480 blowing relatively cool air through the BIX. There might still be room in the bottom for one or two pumps. If you ran both loops off a common multiport reservoir where the top part of the Tank-o-matic is, you might even be able to put everything inside. That'd be pretty slick.
Click to expand...

The problem is at the bottom is mainly how you position the fans. I thought of trying that, but I think I'll just end up blowing hot air on each of the rads. I could always suck the air out (trying that now with one rad), but if that doesn't work well they won't fit.
 
stevo.k said:
I replied to your post over on XS, but I think this is overkill. You can cool all your components with a PA120.2 and a PA120.3 (360GTX).
Click to expand...

I'm trying to get as passive as possible, low fan noise. A single 120.3 can't do it very well (increase ambient room temps from 21c to 26/27 easily). A BIX 480 is better, but I'm thinking if the components are split that may help. I'm going to test one of the rads on the CPU alone before I mount it to see if it makes a significant difference in temps/fan noise.
 
masaville said:
The problem is at the bottom is mainly how you position the fans. I thought of trying that, but I think I'll just end up blowing hot air on each of the rads. I could always suck the air out (trying that now with one rad), but if that doesn't work well they won't fit.
Click to expand...

Air flows in one side, and out the other. After a little more thought (and without much cause to justify this choice), I think I'd probably have:

wall | fans | PA120.3 - space - |fans| BIX480 | wall

<--- <--- <--- <--- <--- airflow <--- <--- <--- <--- <---

Put it all inside a custom ghetto shroud. (Well, 1/4 of the BIX might not be shrouded with the whole assembly, but it's not that big of a deal.) Your temps might not even end up being any worse at all, given that you'd have two layers of fans in the shrouded assembly; all other factors held constant, there's more air going through either of those radiators than if those rad/fan assemblies were running separately. Also, the individual loop temps will have to be very close if they're running off a common reservoir, as the incoming water temp to each radiator would be the same.
 
nonlnear said:
Air flows in one side, and out the other. After a little more thought (and without much cause to justify this choice), I think I'd probably have:

wall | fans | PA120.3 - space - |fans| BIX480 | wall

<--- <--- <--- <--- <--- airflow <--- <--- <--- <--- <---

Put it all inside a custom ghetto shroud. (Well, 1/4 of the BIX might not be shrouded with the whole assembly, but it's not that big of a deal.) Your temps might not even end up being any worse at all, given that you'd have two layers of fans in the shrouded assembly; all other factors held constant, there's more air going through either of those radiators than if those rad/fan assemblies were running separately. Also, the individual loop temps will have to be very close if they're running off a common reservoir, as the incoming water temp to each radiator would be the same.
Click to expand...


Squeezing those two rads in the bottom is next to impossible. So far I've easily fit the 480 rad in the bottom along with the MCP655 pump. I carved out a hole in the tray to match the one that was already there and purchased two EK acrylic reservoirs, which will mount on the MB tray. Basically it look like I can easily route the tubing from the 480 rad into the EK (spacing of barbs is perfect), back into the pump, and straight up into the gpu waterblocks. I'll mount the other EK res right above the lower one and either run tubes down the back and in groment where the 80mm fans are or drill holes up top to do so. Pretty thick aluminum on those TJ07s though....not sure that I want to make a mess of the top of the case.

Revised layout.....excuse the hack of a drawing. =) This layout gets rid of the rear res and still makes it easy to fill/bleed.

revisedlayout.jpg
 
my advice:

if you really want two rads, why not mount both of them in the bottom? one 480 rad and one 240? they'll both fit, even with the PSU. check out pics from my install:

here's one 360 installed:
gtx-g2-360_07_mounted-back.jpg


you could easily fit the 480 in its place...then put the 240 on the other side...the psu will still fit behind it. they can both draw fresh air from outside the case.

also, if you're only having the CPU block on a loop by itself don't even both with a res for it - just use a T line.

actually - for this type of setup - don't even use a res for either loop. i'm using the clear tube style res inside my case (check the pic below)... i really have to say - it looks kinda cool but its totally unnecessary. because its a screw off top its kind of a pain in the ass to access...i fill my system from my top dangerden fill port anyway.
planning_layout_05.jpg
 
here's what i mean:

use the 480 rad for the (2) GPU blocks, and use the 240 rad for the CPU block. i guarantee you'll be happy with the cooling. a 240 is plenty of cooling power for a loop with only 1 block in it.

if i did my rig all over again - this is how i would do it. since you want to use two pumps...mount both of them up in the top part of the case and reserve the bottom for the PSU & rads. also, drop the res's...you really don't need them for such simple loop configs.

480rad240radtj07sketchef9.gif


i mean...i've got (2) 7800GT CO vid cards (both overclocked) and an athlon64x2 (overclocked from 2.0ghz up to 3.0ghz) - all on the same loop with a 360 rad and i never see above 40c at full load.



honestly dude - don't mount any rad's outside the case...it RUINS the beautiful aesthetics of the case. its such a clean design....putting a rad on the outside would ruin it.
 
I just popped the second rad up top just to test some temps tonight. These 8800s run super hot though. Even with a GTX 480 and a single loop they'll still get up to about 59c or so. A 240 might fit, but it's the barbs that are the problem if the fans are on the outside. I'd have to stagger them a bit and put the fans on the inside otherwise they won't fit. Even then the tubing might be quite tight. Gonna think that one over and do some careful measuring to see how feasible that is.

I'm been over your thread many times and got some good ideas from it. Thanks. I mounted the 480 is a similar fashion to yours and will put some pics up shortly. Just waiting on two acrylic reservoirs to replace my aluminum ones.

Here are some temps with two separate loops.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1030741440#post1030741440
 
Theorie said:
my advice:

if you really want two rads, why not mount both of them in the bottom? one 480 rad and one 240? they'll both fit, even with the PSU. check out pics from my install:
...
actually - for this type of setup - don't even use a res for either loop. i'm using the clear tube style res inside my case (check the pic below)... i really have to say - it looks kinda cool but its totally unnecessary. because its a screw off top its kind of a pain in the ass to access...i fill my system from my top dangerden fill port anyway.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I've been saying. Glad to hear that someone who's actually done an install with this layout can vouch for its feasibility. Well, it's almost the same. I'm not sure he can still fit the PSU in the bottom, as his rads are bigger. But the idea is basically the same.
 
I'll have to grab a double rad to try that. Gonna pull it all apart and check out the size of my current rad, barb position, etc. Just might work.
 
annaconda said:
We need some pictures :D
Click to expand...

Coming soon....it's still a mess at this point as I just through the two rads in last night to test dual loop temps. I like Theorie's idea about squeezing the second rad down below and I'm checking all of the measurements right now to see if it will fit. With Silenx fans I think it's a no go....they are wider than the Aerocools. Might have to check out some other fans.
 
I'm using these fans on my rad, SilverStone Premium 9-Blade Dual Bearing Fan:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=49&products_id=3610

They work really great with my Black Ice GTX Gen-Two Xtreme 360 Radiator and they're nice and quiet :)

I'm in the process right now of trying to sell my rig. Once I get it sold I'm going to build an SLi 8800GTX setup. I plan on using the TJ07 again - I love this case. I'm positive that I'm going to go with a config like the one I sketched out above. It will be a little tight, but I'm 100&#37; positive both rad's and the PSU will fit in the bottom if you use a 480 & a 240. You will probably have to use elbow-fittings on the rads, and attach the tube before you mount the rad's - but I think it will work best - no external rads! I simply HATE external radiators.

Oh and a brief warning - your case is going to REALLY REALLY heavy. I hope you don't plan on moving it around too much. I recently had to move my rig and it took two of us to get it down the stairs - and I only have one loop in my system!

Will you be mounting your motherboard upside down, like I did? Or leaving it in the normal mounting configuration?
 
Hey Theorie,

I'm actually analyzing your drawing right now and going over the measurements of all of the compenents. You're right - it's damn tight.

What I'm mostly concerned about is the 90 degree fitting on the 240 rad and whether or not it will extend into the fan once the barb is attached to it. I look at the plastic elbows but they are basically the same length and the DD 90 fittings with a barb on it.

The second thing that comes to mind is the airflow. If both fans are pushing out there is very little airspace in the middle and will then end up negating the effects of one another? I don't think I can put the fans on the outside and have two rads in there. The barbs would have to point towards the fans otherwise I don't think they would fit on the 240. Or you would have to have one rad with fans on the outside and another with fans on the inside. Sure it's possible?

I'm thinking I would have to go to BTX just to accomodate the pumps, tubing, and power supply cables coming up.

Although the diagram below is based on the specified sizes of the components, there is very little room around the edges (due to thickness of the case) and my current 480 rad/fans are completely flush with the side of the case.

You'd almost certainly have to run a single res, possibly one of those EK multi-res units. If you're doing that the next question is how are temps affected with both rads going into one res. To get all of that into a single case is going to be a feat in itself, not to mention the two MCP655 pumps lol.

radiatordiagram.jpg
 
my thoughts on that sketch:

put the fans on the other sides of the rad. so you can actually see them (though the mesh) when the doors are on. the reason for this: maintenance. you're gonna get dust build up on the fan blades and behind the fans (on the actually fins of the radiators). you'll want the fans on the outsides so you can access them. also, if one fails, you would have to remove the entire radiators (and prob drain your loops) just to get to the dead fan. if it's on the outside, you can just pop the door off and unscrew the bad fan to replace it.

try it like this:

modifiedtj07sketchos4.gif
 
I think the barbs for the 480 will be fine pointing up based on the pics I looked at of your current setup. The problem is that 240. I'm pretty sure those 90 fittings will extend into the other rad, no? Unless you put the 240 rad on the other side and push instead of pull. That would give you an extra 1/2" or slightly more, which would probably be enough. Not in front of my case right now, but my fans are flush with the edge of the case on the 480 and there's very little room in the middle. =( Not exactly sure how much room though.

Can you get 90 degree elbow fittings that you can screw directly into the rad?

I'm thinking if you mounted the 240 like you did here with the fans on the inside it would work.

http://gallery.tfrascone.net/g2data/albums/mycomputer/pc_2006-11-29/gtx-g2-360_03_fans-angle.jpg

That gives you about 1" in the middle to route the tubes up with 90 fittings. It would be difficult to get to those fans, but worst case scenario is that you'd have to unscrew 2 brackets to get to them and not take off any tubing. With the L brackets on the 240 on the outside I think it would fit nicely. Isn't there only 1" or so between the rads/fans?

Anyway, I've got the 480 and 240 now so we'll find out if they fit this weekend. I've just got to pick up additional mounting brackets for the 240 and start putting it all together. I am going to flip the MB like you did....far as I can tell that will give me a bit of extra space to add the second pump if I can't get it into the bay.

Btw, what did you use to cut out a hole in the tray into the shape you needed?
 
yeah - those elbow barbs are EXACTLY what you would need - just like i used in this pic:
koosah_08_elbow-fitting-side.jpg


you can get the nylon fittings here for $1.29 each
http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...=product_info&cPath=346_343&products_id=21262
black_elbow_12_(14NPT).jpg


or, a more expensive option, this fitting: it costs a lot more but it's metal (if you care)
http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...=product_info&cPath=346_344&products_id=20603
16542.jpg


install four of those fittings onto the radiators and you'll have no problem fitting both rad's like i showed you in that sketch.

im telling you man - ditch the res's! you really don't need them...just use T-lines. i mean, they look kinda nice, but there's really no point. i've found that the flow going though my res actually causes air-bubbles to form if the res isn't topped up to 100&#37; full. kind of a p.i.t.a. i had to "top off" my loop like a dozen times after filling just to make sure my res was full. here's an example of what i mean (in this pic the res is only like 2/3 full, but you get the idea). even when the res looks like it's almost full - the flow though the res is causing bubbles for some reason. i think its because the flow rate is so high.
leak-test_05_res-bubbles.jpg


about the subfloor - i cut it using a dremmel. here's the shape i went with:
inside_floor-cut.jpg


lets see some pics!
 
How are you planning to direct the airflow? Are the fans pushing the air from the outside of the case inwards, or is one pulling? The problems I see either way is that you are either pushing heated air up into the main compartment (increasing the heat load again) or you are pushing hot air from one rad through the other.
 
Well, I'm kind of SOL without those fittings. You were definitely right about the 240 and 480 fitting. I tucked the 240in there with the fans just to check space and they'll both fit perfectly with room to run the tubes and room to spare, but only 'if' you have those 90 degrees fittings you linked. The ones I have are from DD 90s and they're simply too long....crap!!! I can squeeze the 240 in, but not the 480 without drilling holes all over the place.

I have to order those on Monday and have them rushed out....can't do much until then except maybe some more planning. Got my dremel out so I'll start cutting tomorrow.

I've got 2 of those 220mm EK multi-res coming Monday as well. I was thinking of avoiding using a single res mainly because I want to keep the temps as low as possible. What I'll likely do is hook up a single and see how the temps are and if they are just about as good as two go with that. I'd like to stick with a res seeing as t-lines can be a pain to deal with. Filling/bleeding with a res is so quick and easy.

What are your thoughts about pump placement?
 
stevo.k said:
How are you planning to direct the airflow? Are the fans pushing the air from the outside of the case inwards, or is one pulling? The problems I see either way is that you are either pushing heated air up into the main compartment (increasing the heat load again) or you are pushing hot air from one rad through the other.
Click to expand...

Will have to do some testing on this to see what config works best. Going to try a push/pull config as well as a push/push and pull/pull. Will be interesting to see how much it's affected seeing as there is only about 1.5" in between the two rads.
 
masaville said:
What are your thoughts about pump placement?
Click to expand...

Well, I doubt there's any room down below, so you'll have to mount them in the upper compartment somewhere. The TJ07 has the shelf between the two compartments that can hold a couple of pumps, or alternatively, you could put one in the drive bay area. How many of the drive bays will be occupied by HD's or other?
 
Project update.

So here is a side by side comparison of a CM Stacker 830 and a TJ07. The areas outlined in red on the Stacker show the wasted or inaccessible space. As you can see the TJ07 is equal in height to the 830, but with the power supply turned on it's side and mounted down below offers significantly more interior space. It's also slightly wider and longer.

tj07.jpg


So...the million dollar question is 'will it fit'? :confused: What do you think?

cimg1700.jpg


And the answer is YES!!! it will fit. :D

cimg1701.jpg


....but hey, I always like to follow the governments rule of spending. Why settle for one when you can have two for twice the price??? :p

cimg1738.jpg


A few 90 degree fittings and voila! you're in business.

cimg1740.jpg


Well, we're on the way now. Now where the hell am I going to put the damn pumps and res.....anyone sell a miniature pump? Doesn't the TJ07 come supersized???

cimg1744.jpg


A sneaky place to hide your Silverstone fan controller in a TJ07.

cimg1746.jpg


That's all for now - more updates later!
 
wow dude, that looking GREAT. can't wait to see it perform. i knew those two rad's would fit nicely!

about the fan airflow direction - do you want it to pull air through the fans and exhaust it out the sides (like you have it now) --- or do you want to have the fans draw cool air from outside the case (you would need to flip the fans)

i think these are your two best options. currently it looks like you have it set up like OPTION B. personally i would set up the fans to draw air from outside the case like in OPTION A. the air can escape out the back or up into the case (which you will need an exhaust fan in the upper compartment anyway just to get rid of the ambient heat that is generated by the motherboard.

(arrows indicate airflow based on fan alignment)
tj07airflowsketchuj3.gif
 
Draw from the outside in from what I've tested so far. I tried both and it seems the results are fairly similar, but bringing cool air in I imagine would be more beneficial.
 
Keep the option B, because that will save you from dust. Taking the HOT air out of the case will be more beneficial in your case. Even if you bring the cool air in, there is a more possibility after going through the radiator it will change into HOT air and move up towards your motherboard.

So keep the hot air outside of your case from both radiator will be good option IMO.
 
annaconda said:
Keep the option B, because that will save you from dust. Taking the HOT air out of the case will be more beneficial in your case. Even if you bring the cool air in, there is a more possibility after going through the radiator it will change into HOT air and move up towards your motherboard.

So keep the hot air outside of your case from both radiator will be good option IMO.
Click to expand...


Good point. I'll try both and see what the end results are.
 
More parts in today for the project.

Couple of EK 200 reservoirs, some gel pads to keep those pumps whisper quiet, and more barbs.

cimg1759.jpg


These EK reservoirs are some serious high quality reservoirs and are built to last. When you pick these up and examine them carefully you can easily see that they aren't some slap happy plastic container that some outfit threw together. These make my Swiftech Microres look pretty sad in comparison. I have an XSPC 250mm anodized aluminum res for comparsion as well as Innovatek tank-o-matic 280mm. If you're considering any of the these let me know if you have questions.

Still waiting on a few more items;

-Black 90 degree elbow fittings, cord clips, and clamps
-A silverstone bay extension bracket - probably use this to mount the second pump (upside down maybe)
-A Lian Li Rheobus Fan Controller 5.25" - Black w/ Silver Knobs to add a little practical flair to the front-end

Can I get some feedback on design if any has experience with the following. Right now I have two rads inside at the bottom, one for the CPU loop, the other for the GPUs. However, these EK reservoirs can be used with dual rads and a single pump. Alteratively I can use two reservoirs and two pumps. Does anyone have any experience throwing a 360/480 and a 240 in the same loop with an E6700 and two 8800s or similar? I'm wondering how it would affect temp by running a single loop with dual rads versus two independant loops, each with their own res and pump. Although I can test this out myself it would be great to find out if anyone has already tried it.

I assume when the fluid mixes in the res the temps will average out based on volume of fluid in each rad, how long it's in there, and flow rates?
 
you're better off keeping the two loops separate. don't have them share one res. the two 8800's are going to produce a lot more heat than the CPU - sharing one res would just bring up the average temp of the CPU i would assume. since you have two rads, might as well use one for each loop and keep them separate. use either two res's or none at all (just T-lines)
 
Theorie said:
you're better off keeping the two loops separate. don't have them share one res. the two 8800's are going to produce a lot more heat than the CPU - sharing one res would just bring up the average temp of the CPU i would assume. since you have two rads, might as well use one for each loop and keep them separate. use either two res's or none at all (just T-lines)
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking.

I read t-lines are a pain to fill/bleed? No?
 
Arcygenical said:
Not really... Maybe a pain, but it still only takes an afternoon or so.
Click to expand...

LOL an afternoon? You're kidding right?!

I filled/bled my 480 in about 2 mins with a decent sized res and the rad down below. Mind you all of the tiny bubbles weren't out, but those eventually bleed out anyway when you run it.
 
I got some more parts in yesterday and and in the process of installing them and could use more feedback. I've got two MCP655 pumps and and two EK 220mm reservoirs than I want to install. After spending a bit of time last night trying to figure out how to install them I've come up with these two scenarios. I want to to avoid having the reservoirs hanging over top of the vid cards or other components (unnecessary risk).

Option #1 - internally mounted reservoirs in the drive bay area
Cimg1765.jpg

-top pump
Cimg1766.jpg

-bottom pump

Option #2 - rear mounted reservoirs
Cimg1769.jpg

-pumps not easily visible through the window with a rear mount
Cimg1764.jpg


I'm looking for a solution that's easy to fill and maintain. I personally prefer the back mount. It looks clean and uncluttered and the reservoirs are small enough that they aren't tacky. Although this does increase tube length by having to route tubes out the back and then back through to the pumps, it will end up being much easier to manage. Tubes also won't be visible out the back as I can run them through a mesh grill at where the bottom 80mm fan was and use the other 80mm fan to cool the tubes at the same time. If I go internal those pumps will be a bit of an eyesore and I can't fit the reservoirs anywhere except in the drive bays.

What do you guys think? See any other possibilities?
 
Also, what do you think about two colors of fluid for the loops. Say, one green and one blue? Or totally lame? lol :confused:
 
don't mount the pump on the bottom of the cd drive!!! the pumps do vibrate a little. i'd be worried that the magnets in the pump or vibration might mess up the cd drive.

if you take the time to mount the motherboard upside down, then you'll have room to mound the pumps right on the subfloor. right now, the video cards are in the way...but if you reverse mount the mobo tray you should have room. here's how i did it to my case:

support-bar-relocation.jpg


of course, i cut a huge hole out of my subfloor. if you don't cut out this much, you can mount the pumps right on the subfloor.

if you do flip the mobo tray, and don't cut the subfloor as much, you can mount them in these spots:
pumpmountinglc8.jpg


---edit---

oh, just noticed that you already cut the subfloor....well hmmmm....let's see....
 
Where did you get the stuff the go around the side of your cut... and what is it called?
 
aburgard said:
Where did you get the stuff the go around the side of your cut... and what is it called?
Click to expand...

it's the same stuff that came with the case. when i cut the subfloor to be larger, i actually had more than enough of the original stuff to go around the edge of the new hole
 
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