Samsung 245T ghosting

N

notgod

n00b
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
23
Just received it, and it ghosts badly. Much like Dell 2407WFP-HC (according to this video), as both use the same Samsung LTM240CS01 panel afaik.

Spinning this test image around produces extremely visible and irritating trails (black for the white and light gray rects, greenish for the blue, blueish for the red (less visible) and gray for the black). Inverse ghosting...

Games look bad. Most of the light objects on a dark background suffer from it. You actually do not need to move real fast to observe it, even a slight left-right motion reveals it. This, in combination with an LCD motion blur is real something.

The biggest problem of the monitor is with the white color on a gray (50,50,50) background. Ironically, this forum has white text on such a background, and while you guys read it flat, I do enjoy some sort of 3D version of it at the moment -- the text gets shadows when I just scroll. So it's more an LSD monitor, not LCD.

It all looks like an overdrive problem, presumably a voltage overshot.

Advice:
DO NOT buy it blindly, test it first.

Question for other owners:
Do yo see the same? Please try spinning the test image around and also scroll this forum page up/down.

I suspect it's a general problem, but there is a slight chance of a lottery. Just have to choose between returning or exchanging.

Arkon, could you please re-test it with the test image and confirm no ghosting? Since ghosting occurs in certain color combinations (and also after the monitor warms up) one might miss it in a 'finally arrived' fever.

Rant (ignore):
Waited, waited, waited. Saved money for a dream PC. (Looks in the window). A-ha.

Specs:
DVI connection from 8800 Ultra; a number of quality cables tested.
 
I can't believe 245T is another crap, and an expensive one :( I was waiting for this monitor and wanted to buy it.
What about overscan ? Does 245T overscan HDMI / Component signal ?

What a pity there is no overdrive turn off option as with Gateway FHD2400.

Regards
 
I can play Quake 3 Arena on my old 19" Envision LCD that's rated 25ms. I can't imagine the 245T being worse then it.
 
That's pretty typical for S-PVA panels with overdrive. That's why I don't understand how some people can use the same monitors and say there's no ghosting. Are they blind?

paviko said:
Review of Samsung 245T:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/24inch_18.html#sect0

They like it, but no mention of ghosting :(
Click to expand...
Look at the RTC error rate:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/24inch_22.html
It's as high as 50% with darker colors. That's exactly what would cause that kind of ghosting.
 
Please wait for other owners input (I already PM'ed one forum member who owns 245T). Small chances I just got a bad one. However, when I've discovered the matrix name, I got a bad feeling.

@ paviko:
Didn't test overscan yet, too frustrated.

As to the X-bit review, I've read read it. Actually, I've first read the russian version of it 2 months ago, the author somehow managed to get the monitor earlier. What I haven't paid enough attention was:

Quote

...the level of RTC errors is rather high, 13.2% on average. The errors are not very conspicuous at work, but may become irritating in games.
Click to expand...

RTC = Response Time Compensation, and 13.2% avrg is mad. I feel particularly stupid as I've somehow managed not to note that while I was waiting for the launch and reading reviews.

Pity, however, they didn't do any actual game or contrast image tests, just synthetic ones. I'd pay more attention to 'not suitable for games or anything contrast moving' than to an RTC errors chart for sure.

@ nailzer:
Couldn't imagine it just two days ago.

@ ToastyX:
245T's RTC errors rate is higher than average for a *VA, as well as a 68ms max input lag. However, I share your wonder on why one doesn't see what others simply suffer from. Thinking of buying LG L245WP-BN (8ms AUO MVA) instead of 245T, and totally different reports on its ghosting do confuse.
 
Where did you get the monitor? Are you in the US? Also, what is the manufacturing date of the monitor?
 
Does anyone have a Samsung 244T? If so, do you experience this type of ghosting?
 
based on all the reviews ive read, there is not a SINGLE 24" LCD out there suitable for gaming. at least not for people like me who are used to fast LCD's like the vx922, with its *true* 2ms average input lag. maybe the new FHD2400 from GW, but yet to see any professional reviews. viewsonic just came out with a 22" 2ms LCD using the same technology used in the vx922. of course, its brand new and no reviews out on it either. i might get it and review it here in a month or so.
 
Everything isn't flawless, I agree, but I see > huge black trails < when I scroll this page up and down.

I don't remember LG L245WP-BN, BenQ FP241WZ or Dell 2407WFP-A04 owners complaining about that.

On the other hand, Dell 2407WFP-HC owners (245T's matrix afaik) made a 70 page thread on that ghosting at the support forum. Pity Samsung doesn't have one...

So some 24'' are awful, and some are err... bearable. People manage to play games on them. Not online FPS/RTS at a pro level, where the lag is critical, but some.

-----------------------
Still, any other lucky owners? Arkon? Wake up, follow the black trail :)
 
Just tried all possible RGB, contrast and brightness settings as advised at TFTCentral for -HC. Plus, some more DVI cables.
Nothing. Light on dark = a trailing hell.
 
Just got into work and checked the monitor first thing...

:eek:

I do see the ghosting using the test image you supply, especially if I move it at certain speeds.

I have to say that I hadn't noticed the effect on the text in this forum, and thought you must have it worse (I have a September 2007 panel), but then realised I was using the mouse wheel to scroll... Using the scroll bar to smoothly scroll I do notice a small black ghost trail (maybe on line's worth in height) :mad:

The only games I've played on this monitor have been Supreme Commander (no bad effects noticed), and even BioShock (only for a few minutes as a test, but I didn't notice anything).

Now, I am usually sensitive to these things, but looking at the test image moving, I can see that games like The Witcher (which I'm playing on my Viewsonic VP930 at home) will have problems. Until I test it out, I can't be sure how distracting it will be, but it doesn't look good does it?

Due to the input lag issue I've not bothered using this at home and am hoping work will pay for it... I was waiting for one of the H-IPS 24" panels to be thoroughly reviewed before I make my final decision on my hardcore Crysis rig...

IanM mentioned the Planar 24" that has 1 frame latency... wonder what the ghosting is like on that panel?

Sorry I didn't notice this before :eek:. I did similar tests to the Dell (moving a mouse pointer around) and didn't notice anything. I don't think the 245T has as bad a ghosting problem as the Dell's though. [Do they use the same overdrive firmware? I doubt it.]

24" is definitely the sweet spot for gaming at 1920x1200 IMHO (perfect DPI), we just need to wait for a worthy panel to be created.

I'm happy with this monitor for office use (programming, surfing, graphics work), but would hesitate to play dark games on it for sure.
 
@arkon
Thanks for the input. So you do see the trails when moving the Prad image... meaning the problem is general.

You probably will see the shadows better in a darker room, at evening. I'm getting up to one text line of black shadow trails, and it's quite irritating.

In games try moving the mouse left-right (without moving yourself) around the corners, light objects on a darker bg (and vice-versa), around NPCs. Trails are very visible in my case. You might also take a look at the trees in Oblivion if you have one. A true LSD experience.

You seem to be the only other owner here, so it'll be great if you can give some more testing to make this all more objective.


@Badd
I don't have a VC, but it looks exactly like this HC video. Both monitors use the same Samsung panel, and while there might or might not be any difference in the RTC controls, I see all the same artefacts on my 245T.
 
@notgod
You seem to be the only other owner here, so it'll be great if you can give some more testing to make this all more objective.
Click to expand...

Will do. I'll test Oblivion and The Witcher at some point this week (I'll have to bring my XPS M1710 in).

Oh, and the MPA function doesn't seem to make a difference to the ghosting, does it? Just makes my screen flicker annoyingly... :rolleyes:

Is this ghosting just an issue with S-PVA panels then? How do H-IPS ones fair? (Should this be a new thread? :confused:)

---
4rkon
 
Thanks, arkon. When in Oblivion, you might want to check the following:

* NPCs -- looking left-right at it without moving to see if it gets black shadows
* trees -- in motion, when they are at sides of you.

I'm also getting a strange lighting effect: when running between the trees they got lighter. So a move-stop-move pattern produces slow flickering.

Anyway, if you've seen that HC video I've liked to above, you know what to look for. Corners, contrast objects, dark grays, etc.

MPA is a strange thing. It might work if 245T had more lamps (neons), but with only 4 it produces nothing but a fast flicker.

This kind of ghosting, an 'overdrive (inverse) ghosting' is not common for all of the *VA panels, it is the badly made RTC control mechanism, not the panel type itself. Sometimes they make right RTC, sometimes ugly. In this (and Dell's HC) case it looks like a voltage overshot -- pixels jump over the right color, get back to the right color, and it causes visible trails. This is the Dell response to their version of 245T hell.

But there are 24'' *VAs that have much less (in comp. with 245T or HC - none) ghosting issues -- like BenQ FP241W(Z) or LG L245WP-BN. Or even non-HC Dells.
 
Heh. BeHardware had one of the first reviews of the 245T and mentioned the stupid 4 tube MPA function, and compared it to the BenQ that has 16 tubes! Why skimp on an expensive monitor like this'n? :mad:

Should've thought about that more, but didn't want to use MPA, and it doesn't even make a difference anyway ;)
 
Yes, with those missing tubes the Motion Picture Acceleration button looks grotesque.
Just today I had my own DeDe visiting, asking "and what does this button do?"
"It flickers",-- said I through clenched teeth.
 
I had a 244T and didnt notice ghosting but the input lag was so bad I couldnt stand it.
I had to return it after less than 24 hours.
Beautful colors but the disgusting lag was too much.
 
Yes, 68ms makes it the laggiest monitor in the world.
I can't believe Samsung launched this ghosting laggy monster, and I can't believe I finally own it after a couple of months of waiting... I must have done something in my previous life.
 
Yes, 68ms makes it the laggiest monitor in the world.
Click to expand...

I've done my own test, and found the average input lag to be more like 42ms (=2.5 frames of latency), which isn't great for gaming, but not as bad as 68ms!

Did they take the maximum then? Only one out of maybe 20-30 captures did I see the maximum of 63ms. Check my previous thread on the subject.

---
4rkon
 
The lag tests aren't 100% accurate. So results differ. But the above link is from the TFTCentral people, who are not doing it just for fun. But even your results make it the king of the lag.

Honestly, I'd keep it even with this lag. And even with the color rects trails of the test image. Most LCDs suffer from that. Maybe even with its motion blur.

But not with those black shadows of anything in the dark grayscaleish.

This is a new test image, do you see the inner black shadows on movement? I do, it looks like the HC bug, and it's torturing.
 
note: that input lag average figure from TFT Central shows 58.8ms rather than 68 :) but yes, still extremely high!
 
Could anyone post a video showing off the 245T in-game and also regular desktop use (web browsing, moving file icons, viewing pictures, etc.)? I have seen videos of the Dell 2407wfp-HC, but I would really like to see how the 245T looks.

Some fps games, flight sims, etc. would be really nice.

Thanks in advance.
 
I don't have a video camera, mb arkon has. But in looks 100% like in this icon moving dell video. Set my desktop bg to 50,50,50 and I see all the same trails -- same color, same length, same everything.

People at the dell forum describe how it looks in games. The more I read that thread, the more it looks like the dell not only has the same CS01 panel, but the same RTC controller as well.

Depending on the color of the application this bug goes from not noticeable to unbearable. This particular forum page looks ugly (my mouse smoothing makes the text and its shadows visible while scrolling), Oblivion is not playable, Bioshock is fine most of the times.

Arkon, can you set your bg to gray 50 and move an icon / cursor to see if the problem is like in this new dell video?
 
Setting RGB (50,50,50) I see exactly the same ghosting! This is definitely a panel/overdrive issue.

This forum still looks fine to me though... I don't notice the slight ghosting of the text rows as you scroll vertically: I have to really look for it.

I can see that Oblivion will have problems though. Forgot to bring my laptop in today, but will try to remember tomorrow, and maybe post some Oblivion videos.

Supreme Commander looks gorgeous on my 245T though :D
 
Thanks. I can see it on this page too thanks to the smooth scrolling being enabled. You can try the scrollbar.

So yoshi, the video would be the same... In fact, it looks like everything is like on the Dell HC.

Holy Zarquon...

---------

Just got LG L245WP-BN (couldn't get BenQ WZ). Not a 100% perfect monitor, but at least none of this ridiculous inverse ghosting nonsense present.
This concludes my samsung saga, and now I need to try my best to pretend it never happened to feel less stupid.
 
Hi all, I've just bought a 245T, my unit is built on November 2007, so I was confident that some issue could has been corrected by a firmaware upgrade but...this is not the case!

I have some questions regarding this panel:
- firstly, in Colin Dirt I experienced bad inverse ghosting on the asphalt. This is the most irritating problem with my monitor, input lag is not a big issue for me...
My question is: has anyone succeeded in reducing the inverse ghosting by changing some controls in OSD panel? AFAIK, with Dell 2407 there are some settings with RGB values that reduce somewhat this effect...is there some analogous setting with 245T???

-secondly, I noticed poor rescaling options with my 8800GTX. Besides normal 1920x1200 resolution, other options are for:
-1600x1200
-1280x1024
-1280x960
-1152x864
-1024x768
-800x600
Why there is no support for 1680x1050 or 1440x900 options? I've tried to manually insert those resolutions, but the quality is noticeably worse than hardware based rescaling!

-lastly, is there a way to display the firmware version of my panel?

Thanks to all and...sorry for my bad english!!!
 
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