Could use some opinions on upgrades

SBMongoos

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 22, 2001
Messages
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Looking into upgrading my PC. Been out of the loop a bit. Want to make a worthwhile jump but don't want to break the bank or buy more than would be worth it for what I do.

Old: Gigabyte 8KNXP Rev 2, P4 3Ghz, 2x1 Ghz PC3200 RAM, nVidia FX5200, 2 - 250G SATA2 Seagate HDDs, LiteOn CD-RW and NEC DVD-RW/DL, web cam, MF printer

New: Ideas?

Looking at the:
  • GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
  • Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8400 - Retail

Looks like I'd at least need a video card and RAM, oh and I'm sure a PSU.

I get on the internet a lot and work on web sites, no gaming, do some graphics - some of which is working with digital photos, some video work but not much but this is an interest. Use a fair amount of MP3 use along with my player.
 
- Budget?
- What features do you need in a motherboard?
- Will you be overclocking?
- What case do you have/plan to reuse?
 
- Budget?
- What features do you need in a motherboard?
- Will you be overclocking?
- What case do you have/plan to reuse?

Budget - the biggest bang for the buck/value. Not even sure where to start $350-400?

Features in MB - I've found in the past that I get a little more than I need but it provide flexibility. Want a very solid MB, a nice # of USB connections would be nice. Downside is I haven't upgraded/built in a while so I'm not clear on all the options these days. An eSATA would be kind of nice. I really liked the features I had on the 8KNXP Rev 2 and used them. Just didn't over clock.

Overclocking - I'd like to try it but my last system was built in mind for this and I never bothered.

Case - I do have a mid-tower I can reuse but am itching to get a black case. For now it would keep costs down to reuse the one I have.
 
So let me guess: You're going to keep the optical and hard drives, right?
 
The HDDs are quite new so absolutely. Prefer to for now on the optical but they are IDE. Been looking at the GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R at Newegg for $99 (after MIR). Looks like it has an IDE controller on it. Could daisy chain the two drives and even drop the CD-RW since the DVD unit does CDs.
 
So, for clarification, you want to replace the...

Processor
Motherboard
RAM
Video Card
Power Supply

... all for $400 or less?
 
Would like to. OCZ is currently working with me on a RAM warranty and they said they would move me up so no costs there.

I see Newegg does have two 478 socket mb's. Option to go they way but I loose some features I liked. No biggie.

Looked at the MSI 945GCM478-L 478 and BIOSTAR P4M900M4 478 (around $50/60) and could get OCZ to do DDR2 PC5400 instead and call it good. I'm still pissed about this coming up with such a tight ass budget this month. Argh...
 
No point in getting a socket 478 mobo since DDR2 RAM by itself will not provide a significant enough performance increase. Assuming that OCZ doesn't upgrade you to DDR2 RAM, I recommend this setup:
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 CPU - $165
Asus P5E-VM HDMI Intel G35 mATX Motherboard - $125
G.Skill F2-6400CL5D-4GBPQ 2 x 2GB DDR2 800 RAM - $40
Corsair 400CX 400W PSU - $55
---
Total: $385 plus tax and shipping

Since you're not gaming nor are doing any sort of intensive 3D work, the onboard video on the Asus P5E-VM should be enough for your needs.
 
Here's what I was looking at:


$323 and I believe all was free s/h

Thoughts?
 
First, That PSU is crap. Go with the SIGNIFICANTLY better quality Corsair 400CX PSU for $5 less.

Second, don't factor in rebates until that rebate check is in your hands. Rebates can still be denied, lost, or ignored so they are not a guaranteed discount.

Third, you don't have a video card. Since you're not gaming, I recommend this card:
Sapphire 100233L Radeon HD 3450 256MB PCI-E Video Card - $30

Fourth, are you 100% sure that OCZ will upgrade you to DDR2 RAM?

Fifth, DDR2 1200 does not provide a single ounce of performance increase over DDR2 800 RAM. So you'll be perfectly fine with DDR2 800 RAM.
 
Danny B: I a really appreciate your feedback. I assume you have a lot of experience with PC equipment?

I get it about rebates. I've had pretty good luck but I get your point.

Why do you think the PSU is crap? I see the Corsair has a rebate.

As for OCZ I know already I can get PC2 - 6400. I'm trying to get 9200 (1200mhz). In regards to your fifth comment. If this is a fact then it's a shoe in to get OCZ2RPR8002GK as this is already approved. 2 x 1 Gig kit by the way. I had, again, considered OC'ing since the Wolfdale can be pushed. This is why I was looking at going 1200 on the RAM. I could be wrong here.

You like the Asus over the Gigabyte?

As for your choice for video card it's cheap and also has a rebate. Is it worth it at that cost. Point being cheap price and cheap card?

Appreciate your feedback.
 
Rosewill has a history of making less-than-reliable power supplies that can't handle the loads they were rated for. Some of us here -- Danny and I included -- recommend that you spend a little bit more on a better-known PSU brand with a history of reliability -- e.g. Antec, Corsair, Seasonic, Silverstone, PC Power & Cooling -- as you often get what you pay for with power supplies.

You're a bit off regarding RAM speeds. The front side bus (FSB) of Intel Core 2 processors is listed at four times its actual speed and DDR2 RAM is listed at twice its actual (maximum) speed. So to match the FSB of the E8400 (1333/4=333MHz), you need RAM that can run at DDR2 667 speeds (667/2=333MHz). For overclocking:

Danny Bui said:
Stated FSB/4 = Actual FSB
Actual FSB x 4 = Stated FSB
Multiplier x Actual FSB = CPU Speed
1:1 Ratio: 2 x Actual FSB = RAM Speed
1:1 Ratio: FSB = 1/2 RAM speed
Note that C2D systems don't see a performance increase with any ratio higher than 1:1

E8400:
Multi x Actual FSB, Stated FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
9 x 333Mhz, 1333Mhz, DDR2 667 RAM = 3.0Ghz <== Stock Speeds
9 x 400Mhz, 1600Mhz, DDR2 800 RAM = 3.6Ghz <== Easy OC
9 x 450Mhz, 1800Mhz, DDR2 900 RAM = 4.0Ghz <== Excellent OC
9 x 500Mhz, 2000Mhz, DDR2 1000 RAM = 4.5Ghz <== If you're EXTREMELY lucky

You won't need DDR2 1200 RAM -- besides, most boards don't (officially) support it. If you really want to overclock, you should also get a good CPU cooler.

The reason why Danny went with the Asus P5E-VM HDMI is because it has an onboard GPU... and because you said that gaming isn't a factor with this system. If you want to save money, and you don't need RAID, get the cheaper GA-EP43-DS3L or the MSI P43 Neo3-F.

I believe (but I'm not entirely certain) that Danny offered the Sapphire HD3450 as an alternative for the features that it has available at that price. It will work well with Vista, especially if you plan on using Vista's Aero interface, and with its HDCP support, it's capable of 1080p HD video playback.
 
Danny B: I a really appreciate your feedback. I assume you have a lot of experience with PC equipment?
Yup. Been working with PC as well recommending PC parts here on the forums for the past two years or so.

Why do you think the PSU is crap? I see the Corsair has a rebate.

What tiraides said is completely right and correct. But to elaborate further: that particular PSU is made by a company known as Magnell. There's no info out there about the actual quality of that PSU. Generally when there's a very little or no info about the PSU's actual maker and whether or not that PSU is a quality unit, it's usually safe to assume that the PSU is crap. In this case, no Magnell PSU has actually been properly tested by sites like jonnyguru.com or hardocp.com and there's a lack of info on this company in the forums of the two sites. That's enough for me to say that the PSU is crap.

So since the Corsair PSU I recommended is $5 cheaper, backed by a very reputable company and made by Seasonic, one of the world's best PSU makers, it's should not be a hard choice between that Rosewill and Corsair PSU.

Tiraides pretty much answered your other questions better than I ever could.
 
Rosewill has a history of making less-than-reliable power supplies that can't handle the loads they were rated for. Some of us here -- Danny and I included -- recommend that you spend a little bit more on a better-known PSU brand with a history of reliability -- e.g. Antec, Corsair, Seasonic, Silverstone, PC Power & Cooling -- as you often get what you pay for with power supplies.

You're a bit off regarding RAM speeds. The front side bus (FSB) of Intel Core 2 processors is listed at four times its actual speed and DDR2 RAM is listed at twice its actual (maximum) speed. So to match the FSB of the E8400 (1333/4=333MHz), you need RAM that can run at DDR2 667 speeds (667/2=333MHz). For overclocking:



You won't need DDR2 1200 RAM -- besides, most boards don't (officially) support it. If you really want to overclock, you should also get a good CPU cooler.

The reason why Danny went with the Asus P5E-VM HDMI is because it has an onboard GPU... and because you said that gaming isn't a factor with this system. If you want to save money, and you don't need RAID, get the cheaper GA-EP43-DS3L or the MSI P43 Neo3-F.

I believe (but I'm not entirely certain) that Danny offered the Sapphire HD3450 as an alternative for the features that it has available at that price. It will work well with Vista, especially if you plan on using Vista's Aero interface, and with its HDCP support, it's capable of 1080p HD video playback.

tiraides: so should I go with the PC2-6400 (800 Mhz right?) or drop to 667Mhz to go with the E8400? Late and I'm not on top of things. Want a solid system that's plenty fast and can OC if I choose. I plan to use WinXP Pro. Not sure I'll bother with Vista since Win7 is around the corner and support is out there 'til 2014, right?

As for the Mb: would you go Asus P5E-VM HDMI or one of the GA-EP43-DS3L or the MSI P43 Neo3-F along with the Sapphire HD3450? Why the Asus/GA/MSI Mbs?

I do like the Gigabit ports. Using this speed on my LAN.

Thanks again for both of your input as it's VERY helpful!!
 
tiraides: so should I go with the PC2-6400 (800 Mhz right?) or drop to 667Mhz to go with the E8400? Late and I'm not on top of things. Want a solid system that's plenty fast and can OC if I choose. I plan to use WinXP Pro. Not sure I'll bother with Vista since Win7 is around the corner and support is out there 'til 2014, right?

As for the Mb: would you go Asus P5E-VM HDMI or one of the GA-EP43-DS3L or the MSI P43 Neo3-F along with the Sapphire HD3450? Why the Asus/GA/MSI Mbs?

Just go with DDR2 800 RAM. It doesn't hurt to have faster RAM. Since you're getting it for free anyway, don't worry about the RAM speed.

I'd go with the DS3L since I'm more partial to Gigabyte over Asus and MSI.
 
Just go with DDR2 800 RAM. It doesn't hurt to have faster RAM. Since you're getting it for free anyway, don't worry about the RAM speed.

I'd go with the DS3L since I'm more partial to Gigabyte over Asus and MSI.

Do you think it's worth the $20 to go with the GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R LGA 775 Intel P45?

400W enough?

nVidia vs. Radeon?
 
Do you think it's worth the $20 to go with the GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R LGA 775 Intel P45?

400W enough?

nVidia vs. Radeon?

It's worth it to me since I will make full use of the UD3R's features. However, whether or not it's worth it to you is entirely dependent on you. Compare the UD3R and DS3L's features side by side and see which ones you'll end up using the most/least.

A good quality 400W PSU like the Corsair is enough

No context for the nVidia VS ATI so not gonna comment. Do you mean in terms of gaming, support, power usage, etc? Though for your needs, it really doesn't matter which video card or video card manufacturer you go with.
 
No context for the nVidia VS ATI so not gonna comment. Do you mean in terms of gaming, support, power usage, etc? Though for your needs, it really doesn't matter which video card or video card manufacturer you go with.

Did you mean to say "not contest"? So it's nVidia for you? Or it simply appears to have no need (for either). As for the video I can see myself doing more things with video down the road. Might be nice play a game and have some real fun with it but again I gave up gaming quite a while ago.

I think one of things that's catching my eye about the GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R is the Ultra Durable. Read some interesting things. Worth it?

Okay, I've go to add this as well: the 1200Mhz offers no gain over the 800Mhz?

Again, thanks for your help. It really is appreciated.
 
The ATX motherboards that Danny and I recommended (as well as the one that you're considering) don't come with any onboard video. That's the main reason Danny recommended Asus P5E-VM HDMI even though it's a microATX board.

But If you're not looking into gaming, then you really have no need for a high-end video card. As I mentioned earlier, the HD3450 that Danny recommended was chosen so that you could playback HD video without spending an arm or a leg. Nvidia also has several cards (for under $100) that are capable of the same tasks. But for your needs, there's no preference between Nvidia or ATI -- or Intel (or, rather, its onboard GPU), for that matter.

"Ultra Durable" is a catchphrase to us here. The boards that we've recommended here will all perform well and run stable. The appealing feature of the GA-EP45-UD3R is its onboard RAID controller, but if you have no interest in or desire for RAID, then you don't really need that board. Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI, among others, produce various motherboards that we often recommend here. There isn't one board manufacturer that's particularly better than the others.

At stock speeds (of the processor's FSB), DDR2 1200 offers no performance benefit over DDR2 800. If anything, the RAM would be slowed down so that it runs at the same speed as the FSB. Reread the overclocking chart, and you'll see that DDR2 800 is capable of giving you a pretty good overclock.
 
Did you mean to say "not contest"? So it's nVidia for you? Or it simply appears to have no need (for either) .

No I meant no context. You just asked Nvidia VS ATI. You didn't add exactly how the two graphics companies should be compared in a way that was meaningful to you . Like which one is best in terms of gaming performance, HD decoding, has best bang for the buck value, low power usage, best within a certain price bracket, best support, best drivers, best for folding, etc, etc, etc. Since you didn't specify exactly what you were looking for (or put the question in a proper context), I didn't feel like writing an entire essay covering all the aforementioned factors.

But tiraides summed it best:
But for your needs, there's no preference between Nvidia or ATI -- or Intel (or, rather, its onboard GPU), for that matter.

So unless you know for sure that you are gaming or doing 3D modeling/editing or folding, there's really no difference between onboard video vs discrete video or Nvidia VS ATI VS Intel for you.

And again Tiraides is right about everything in his last post.
 
There are some other differences between the Gigabyte GA-EP45 unit besides RAID. Chipset and a few other items I think. This has no big bearing I take it?

By the way if either of you are up to the task of providing your opinions on better video cards, please do. I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say.

You two have provided great information and it's well written.
 
tiraides: so should I go with the PC2-6400 (800 Mhz right?) or drop to 667Mhz to go with the E8400? Late and I'm not on top of things. Want a solid system that's plenty fast and can OC if I choose. I plan to use WinXP Pro. Not sure I'll bother with Vista since Win7 is around the corner and support is out there 'til 2014, right?

As for the Mb: would you go Asus P5E-VM HDMI or one of the GA-EP43-DS3L or the MSI P43 Neo3-F along with the Sapphire HD3450? Why the Asus/GA/MSI Mbs?

I do like the Gigabit ports. Using this speed on my LAN.

Thanks again for both of your input as it's VERY helpful!!



I echo the opinion of getting the DDR2-800 RAM, especially if you're going with an e8400. My experience teaming these two is echoed across almost every forum I read: overclocking the e8400 to 3.6Ghz (9x400 FSB) is almost a gimme and running that with DDR2-800 RAM gives you a nice 1:1 ratio. Maybe I have a little OCD about that but I've always preferred having a synchronous ratio between the CPU and RAM. Getting the DDR2-800 for a negligible $$ increase gives you that little overhead to allow you to tinker on Day One or down the road yet still allows you to run the stock 333FSB with no quibbles.
 
If it's cool with you two I may ask for your help in tweaking the system. I like what you're saying. I may OC in the near future but I'd like to first get this things setup to work great so I get the process down well then OC.

Thanks!
 
I would highly recommend reading the sticky on OC'ing C2D chips in the Overclocking and Cooling forum. I started with that as a refresher and found it to be a wonderful resource. Once you chew through that the forum can help with specific tweaking strategies.
 
There are some other differences between the Gigabyte GA-EP45 unit besides RAID. Chipset and a few other items I think. This has no big bearing I take it?

By the way if either of you are up to the task of providing your opinions on better video cards, please do. I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say.

The only difference between the P43 and P45 chipsets is that the P45 supports Crossfire whereas the P43 does not. That's the only major difference. However, mobo manufacturers tend to cram their P45 motherboards with more features and better cooling.

As for which video cards are better, better for what exactly? You still haven't provided any sort of reference, factor or rubric to judge the video cards by. Like I said TWICE already, you haven't provided any context in which we should judge the video card.
 
The only difference between the P43 and P45 chipsets is that the P45 supports Crossfire whereas the P43 does not. That's the only major difference. However, mobo manufacturers tend to cram their P45 motherboards with more features and better cooling.

As for which video cards are better, better for what exactly? You still haven't provided any sort of reference, factor or rubric to judge the video cards by. Like I said TWICE already, you haven't provided any context in which we should judge the video card.

What details do you need. Thought I was clear on the video card since INITIAL posting. The things I've added along the way are working with video and being able to occasionally play some nice games. It's quite okay to ask for clarification.

By the way what mid tower case (3-4 5 1/4" front bays) would you recommend? Not sure if any of these come with good PSUs.
 
Define which "nice games" you want to play. Since the majority of people who ask for parts recommendations here claim gaming as a priority, we try to pair them with a good mid-range or high-end card for their needs. But we need to know which monitor(s) you're using as well as the resolution you're using on said monitor(s). The games you intend to play would also help us with our recommendation.

We didn't recommend one of those mid-range/high-end cards because outside of gaming, you don't need a powerful video card for Internet browsing or minor photo/video editing. We just made sure that our choices would allow you to use Vista's Aero interface as well as play back 1080p HD-quality video.

The Antec Sonata series are the only cases (bundled with power supplies) that we recommend, as they come with the Antec Earthwatts series power supplies. There's also the NSK series, but they use an ATX (or microATX) mini-tower design. We normally recommend the Antec Sonata III, but there's also the Sonata Designer and the Sonata Plus 550. But we normally recommend one of those cases if the prices are significantly less than buying a case and (quality) power supply separately.
 
What details do you need. Thought I was clear on the video card since INITIAL posting. The things I've added along the way are working with video and being able to occasionally play some nice games. It's quite okay to ask for clarification.

I have asked for clarification multiple times here:

No I meant no context. You just asked Nvidia VS ATI. You didn't add exactly how the two graphics companies should be compared in a way that was meaningful to you . Like which one is best in terms of gaming performance, HD decoding, has best bang for the buck value, low power usage, best within a certain price bracket, best support, best drivers, best for folding, etc, etc, etc. Since you didn't specify exactly what you were looking for (or put the question in a proper context), I didn't feel like writing an entire essay covering all the aforementioned factors.

So unless you know for sure that you are gaming or doing 3D modeling/editing or folding, there's really no difference between onboard video vs discrete video or Nvidia VS ATI VS Intel for you.

As for which video cards are better, better for what exactly? You still haven't provided any sort of reference, factor or rubric to judge the video cards by. Like I said TWICE already, you haven't provided any context in which we should judge the video card.

Yes you did say it might be nice to play a game but you also said:

Might be nice play a game and have some real fun with it but again I gave up gaming quite a while ago.

So just to make sure we're all on the same page: you want to play games now right?

And again Tiraides is right about the case/PSU combos: Generally most case/PSU combos have craptastic or shitty PSUs. The major exception to this is Antec since they bundle decent quality PSUs in their cases. But generally we tend to recommend separate case and PSUs if we can't find an Antec case/PSU combo at a decent price and with enough power for a system.
 
Being of technical mind myself I appreciate your wanting specifics. I guess it's tough to come back with specific games to play since I haven't in a while. I think it makes sense to stick with the recommended video card as it has a low price and can easily be upgraded later.

My tendency is to buy good/solid quality components to have a good/solid (preferably quite PC) machine. I may actually go back to RAID at some point. This carries weight on the Mb choice. When building I like to make enough of a leap without spending a ton of cash that will buy me about three years or so. But, have the ability to upgrade components. I haven't even bothered to buy a sound card in a very long time as the sound with my speakers and the onboard work well for me. (Pale to the Marantz/Paradigm home system however.. :D )

I'll look at the Antec cases and then compare to the Antec with the Earthwatt PSU. Certainly sounds like you recommend Antec and the Corsair PSU. If I were to OC would this 400W do the job?

Interesting case. Not sure about all the drive slots:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042

No 3.5" front bay for multimedia card. Need a 2 bay for my 3 SATA drive Icy Dock and another for at least one optical drive.

Thanks again!
 
I'm sure that there are other cases out there that would fit your needs -- I'm going to leave that choice up to you. As long as the case you want supports at least two 120mm case fans -- one for the front, and one for the rear of the case -- you should be fine, for the most part.

Having said that, I did find a case that fit your needs -- the Cooler Master RC-690. If you like it, get it from Provantage, where it's currently on sale.

We often recommend Antec power supplies because there have been many good deals on them in the past. However, many of use here consider the Corsair power supplies to be of better quality -- even though they're comparatively more expensive.

If you really want a video card that's capable of gaming, consider the HD4850. It has all of the HD playback features of the HD3450, and it's capable of playing games at resolutions of up to 1920x1200 (based on the particular game and its visual settings). There is one that's currently on sale for around $150.
 
Nice case. I think it might just fit, close! I like it. Bigger that what I've got now.
 
Might fit? What are you going to include?

Do you still want everything at under $400?
 
No, what I'm referring to is my desk. I have a cavity to place a computer. This case is pretty good size and I'm not sure it will fit. I think so but it "may" be too wide. I like using this space for the computer as it's designed for it and keeps it out of the way, etc.
 
Okay! What about BFG.

Depends on which BFG model you're talking about. The BFG LS, ES, and MX PSU series are very good PSUs. But BFG's other PSU lines, like the GS line, are kind of crappy as well.
 
Since OCZ is working with me and DDR2 appears to be no problem. What would you get? I know you mentioned the 800Mhz but they offer flavors and these mb's do 1066Mhz as well and they have this speed of RAM. Since we have some flexibility maybe I can take advantage of a good opportunity.

http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/ddr2/
 
I would go for the OCZ RAM that is clocked at DDR2 800 speeds and has voltage of 1.8V to 2.0V at CAS5.

If I was planning to do some heavy duty overclocking, something you probably won't do, I'd go with the DDR2 1066 RAM rated at 2.1V at CAS5, assuming that I'm getting the RAM for free like you.
 
I would go for the OCZ RAM that is clocked at DDR2 800 speeds and has voltage of 1.8V to 2.0V at CAS5.

If I was planning to do some heavy duty overclocking, something you probably won't do, I'd go with the DDR2 1066 RAM rated at 2.1V at CAS5, assuming that I'm getting the RAM for free like you.

Thanks Danny...

Well, my 2 cents would be to aim high. If I don't OC it will be fine. But at least I'd have the option and already have the RAM. It will have to be a 2Gig kit.

Here's a few... feedback appreciated.




Just ran into this Mb with onboard video: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...IGNEFL121808-_-Motherboards-_-LH5B-_-13128363. Actually on sale with a code and free s/h. Has DVI, VGA, and HDMI onboard (NVIDIA GeForce 9400). Wait, is this the one you already referenced? I notice it's a micro.

Again, appreciate your feedback. It really helps.
 
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