Win7 - Wide Gamut - Oversaturation? Still an issue?

V

Varsis

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
163
With current era gaming graphics cards.
Running with a wide gamut monitor, say an LP2475w from HP.
And windows 7's supposed support for wide gamut.

Will I see over saturation problems caused by wide gamut.
Or is windows color aware, and able to keep colors in check for me?
Including for programs that are not color aware themselves, say old games or movies with a video player that is not itself, color aware?

Thanks guys, I've been looking everywhere and I can't seem to find a solid answer on the subject, just random speculation, has anyone with a wide gamut monitor tested this out on the RC release yet? I'm currently running the 64bit RC release of Win7, if this finally cleans up the gamut issues I'm probably gonna go the route of a wide gamut IPS monitor.
But I'd like to get more look before leap.
 
Mods should definitely make this a sticky. This is a question that really does need to be answered considering wide gamut is practically being forced on the consumer and Windows 7 is almost here.

Im using RC as well, but I still have a sRGB display.
 
Couldn't not agree more would like to know as well! especially now when there is
no other option for me cause the only 24 IPS NEC 2490 (Non wide gamut monitor)
is no longer available to buy :(
 
In my experience calibrating a couple of wide and standard gamut displays, the delta value for what qualifies as "oversaturated" is completly blown out of proportion. You talking like 2-3 delta at most, this is not something that's going to make your eyeballs burn. Generally if you have the brightness properly set, you can then compensate very easily by lowering the affected color a bit. Unless you're color matching prints or doing studio work, set it and forget it.
 
Yeah, greens are a bit over-saturated for my tastes on my NEC 2960WUXi. Strangely enough this did not bother me until I played Fallout 3. I toned down the green in the white balance, but that makes my grays slighly reddish.

Still fiddling around with it every now and then.
 
JaguarSKX said:
Yeah, greens are a bit over-saturated for my tastes on my NEC 2960WUXi. Strangely enough this did not bother me until I played Fallout 3. I toned down the green in the white balance, but that makes my grays slighly reddish.

Still fiddling around with it every now and then.
Click to expand...

You have to use sRGB colour mode. Or wait and pray 'till imbecils in Micro$osft and/or NVIDIA/ATI recognize there are wide-gamut monitors giving people hell and finally implement a full system colour profile support.
 
Biges said:
You have to use sRGB colour mode. Or wait and pray 'till imbecils in Micro$osft and/or NVIDIA/ATI recognize there are wide-gamut monitors giving people hell and finally implement a full system colour profile support.
Click to expand...

Yep; 10e covered this very nicely in the 2709W thread.

From what I have read so far IE8 is color aware and Win7, (wich is really Win6.1, or a VISTA.1) will not be.

Dave
 
regardless of all this jibber jabber, which i apreciate.
Were still not looking at the heart of the issue and if windows 7 is completely color aware or not.
I dont care about ways to solve symptoms of the underlying issue.
I would like to see the issue itself cured, so to speak.
Can we get any more info on windows 7 and color awareness?
@Biges-thats what were trying to find out. It was stated that windows 7 was going to be color aware.
Were trying to find out what that intails if its in the RC release etc?
Please stay on track people.
 
I am sorry, but IE8 is not color aware as far as I know.

The only day-to-day use app that I know of that is color aware is Firefox (if you install a special plugin and have a calibrate color profile to configure it to).

I have read some stuff about Windows 7 supporting all kinds of advanced color displays like scRGB, but so far no one has pointed out if Win7 will be color aware in the GUI, non-color aware apps, games, etc., and no one has posted a how-to on setting up this environment if it is possible.

This reminds me of the sound card issues we had in Vista, but that was because the OS changed and we had to wait for the 3rd party folks to support OpenAL in hardware and games. This is opposite...3rd party is putting out wide gamut displays before the OS, apps & games truly support it.

I posted a thread on the Windows 7 forums about this as well http://social.technet.microsoft.com...i/thread/57557e35-cc35-4a28-ac71-088fec2c3df1
 
mike_j_johnson said:
The only day-to-day use app that I know of that is color aware is Firefox (if you install a special plugin and have a calibrate color profile to configure it to).
Click to expand...
No special plugin is required because ICCv4/ICCv2 profile support is built right into Firefox 3.0 (The latest Firefox 3.1/3.6 nightly builds have dropped support for ICCv4 profiles). The plugin you speak of only provides a GUI to configure the settings if you're not brave enough to venture into about:config.
 
regardless of all that we still have an underlying question that needs answering.
Is windows 7 completely color aware and does that forward down to apps run on the platform which are themselves NOT color aware?
and, how?
 
Varsis said:
regardless of all that we still have an underlying question that needs answering.
Is windows 7 completely color aware and does that forward down to apps run on the platform which are themselves NOT color aware?
and, how?
Click to expand...

No it isn't. It works essentially the same as Vista. 10e checked and reported on this.

This is actually something that is quite difficult to handle properly.
 
so until that happens on the OS level, as far as i'm concerned, wide gamut monitors, are built for photoshop only, which, imo, is bull. I'd rather have a TN panel then an IPS or VA thats gonna be oversaturated in 98percent of the programs I run.
And i'm not spending 1200 on an NEC 2490WUXi even though its the only monitor imo thats worth a dam.
 
you can if you know where to look but some venders are realizing what the 2490 actually is and prices for it are climbing so fast your head spins
 
Snowdog said:
No it isn't. It works essentially the same as Vista. 10e checked and reported on this.

This is actually something that is quite difficult to handle properly.
Click to expand...

URL to that post/thread?

I don't get why this would be difficult.
Code: 
if ( ! is_color_aware(application))
  assume(sRGB);

Done!

No but seriously, I'd like to know what the problem is.
 
brumwald said:
URL to that post/thread?

I don't get why this would be difficult.
Code: 
if ( ! is_color_aware(application))
  assume(sRGB);

Done!

No but seriously, I'd like to know what the problem is.
Click to expand...

likely that only few ask for it...
unless we get ppl spaming the microsoft dev team (head article in print media etc.) there probably won't be anything happening till windows 11 .
It's not a feature joe average understands yet.
 
brumwald said:
I don't get why this would be difficult.
Code: 
if ( ! is_color_aware(application))
  assume(sRGB);
Done!

No but seriously, I'd like to know what the problem is.
Click to expand...

The "assume(sRGB)" is not so easy to handle: it involves a gamut conversion each time a color would be referred. Colored bitmaps (such as textures) can also be fed directly to the graphic hardware, and the OS would have to hook into all these operations to have an opportunity to correct the color. Another option would be at the graphic driver level, but at this level we don't know easily whether the caller is color aware or not and if the driver should proceed to a color conversion. Finally, the gamut conversion itself requires the assistance of the graphic hardware to avoid a performance penalty; while ad hoc correction on a per-application basis is quite easy to do, a general approach at the system level with opportunity for hardware-assisted 3D LUT mapping or dynamic gamut conversion does not seems to be ready (to say the least) for Windows.

Color awareness is an concern for all wide gamut device owner, and unfortunately the OS just ignores the issue by considering it is application matters, limiting its function to providing a color API for enabled applications. The "system palette" and all applications assuming implicitely sRGB color space just get totally wrong colors.

I feel your pain, I'm in the same situation with an HP LP2475w. However, my essential applications (including video playback) are color aware, so I can live with that.

Regards
 
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I feel your pain, I'm in the same situation with an HP LP2475w. However, my essential applications (including video playback) are color aware, so I can live with that.
Click to expand...


Color aware video player? Whats the name of that program?
 
MaZa said:
Color aware video player? Whats the name of that program?
Click to expand...

MPlayer, but it requires an unofficial patch enabling full ICC/ICM profiles support and gamut conversion using littlecms lib.
Sadly, it was never integrated in the main trunk. I built a win32 version, works fine.

I have seen other solutions such as MPC with a pixel shader to carry the gamut conversion, see here:
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=723315

AVIsynth based solutions are likely possible also.

But MPlayer with the color management patch by Yue Shi Lai (all the credit goes to him and the littlecms team) is the best solution, IMHO.
 
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Hi,

Maybe windows 7 tries to solve this issue another way:
Win 7 supports wider bits per color channel - for example 10bits and more. So today high end panels use 8bit per color channel, and if future LCD panels will use more bits per channel maybe we won't need icc profiles anymore (for oversaturation issue) ?

Vilius
 
pcat said:
MPlayer, but it requires an unofficial patch enabling full ICC/ICM profiles support and gamut conversion using littlecms lib.
Sadly, it was never integrated in the main trunk. I built a win32 version, works fine.

I have seen other solutions such as MPC with a pixel shader to carry the gamut conversion, see here:
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=723315

AVIsynth based solutions are likely possible also.

But MPlayer with the color management patch by Yue Shi Lai (all the credit goes to him and the littlecms team) is the best solution, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Oh crap! :eek:
That patch is actually functional and ready?

As in, I can make a profile with a colorimeter and Argyll, compile mplayer and get accurate BT.709 playback? Is there a significant overhead in this implementation?

With this, I may gain accurate video playback and image handling, which would mitigate two essential issues in purchasing a WG monitor.

Would you be able to take a photo of your build playing a video compared to an unmanaged player? perhaps comparing it to an sRGB display if you have one?

Eagerly awaiting a response.
 
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Whoisthisreally said:
That patch is actually functional and ready?
Click to expand...

As it is not included in the standard MPlayer distribution, I don't think it had a chance to be extensively tested. However, it relies on the little cms engine which is working pretty well, and I had not hit into any issue with this modified MPlayer.

As in, I can make a profile with a colorimeter and Argyll, compile mplayer and get accurate BT.709 playback? Is there a significant overhead in this implementation?
Click to expand...

You can use the generic ICC profile provided by your monitor manufacturer, or generate a custom profile with a colorimeter (or several profiles if you want accurate reproduction depending on the lighting environment). I used a spyder3elite for mines. Then it goes like this:

Code: 
mplayer.exe -vf cm=src_prim=smpte:dest=hp_2475w path_to_your_video_file

here the "-vf" argument ask to use the color management video filter, specifying the source gamut as smpte (bt 709) and the destination gamut as an ICC profile to be read in the "hp_2475w.icm" file.

It should also work with most graphical front end, by feeding the additional "-vf cm..." argument to the MPlayer executable.

Regarding the overhead, I would need some testing to tell you. I guess that it could be an issue for 1080p streams.

With this, I may gain accurate video playback and image handling, which would mitigate two essential issues in purchasing a WG moni[/tor.
Click to expand...

Yes, you would get perfectly accurate video playback. Only games are still a problem but I don't have much time for them anyway ;)

Would you be able to take a photo of your build playing a video compared to an unmanaged player? perhaps comparing it to an sRGB display if you have one?
Click to expand...

Yes, I could do that but not right now. What I can show you quickly is the same frame output with and without color management in MPlayer :

MPlayer with -vf cm
f00000095.png


standard MPlayer
g00000095.png


*NOTE: theses images will not show accurate colors on your monitor, as the raw RGB values were mapped for my specific monitor gamut. But you should see how much they are different.

EDIT: for those interested, the custom build can be downloaded here

Regards,
 
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Thanks pcat for clarifying the difficulties.
I guess I'll have to read up on calibration etc. but that will have to wait to the summer-break. First I thought that the calibration profile was just loaded into the graphic card LUT. But that would of course not work for application specific settings.

But who cares? I don't have any need what so ever to be able to view wide-gamut material. What if I just load the graphic cards LUT with a profile that "transforms" my wide-gamut monitor to a sRGB one. Granted, I won't be able to view (correctly) any wide-gamut material (no loss) and I will not have the same precision as a ordinary sRGB monitor but no color profile is ever gonna give me that either.

Possible?
But maybe I should be reading up on this before posting stupid questions (links to good material would be appretiated).

vilius said:
Hi,

Maybe windows 7 tries to solve this issue another way:
Win 7 supports wider bits per color channel - for example 10bits and more. So today high end panels use 8bit per color channel, and if future LCD panels will use more bits per channel maybe we won't need icc profiles anymore (for oversaturation issue) ?

Vilius
Click to expand...

I don't know what the driving factor for >8bit panels is. Is it wider gamut or higher precision? If higher precision (or both) is the goal then that won't work. Still puzzled that monitor manufacturers jumped the gun and made the hardware before there were any decent software support.
 
I don't expect this to get solved soon. Microsoft will say it's an application issue and push it there. The graphics card manufacturers will say it's an OS issue and avoid handling it with the GPU driver. The application software devs will say this is an API service that should be provided by Windows. No one seems to be taking leadership here--definitely one case where the "single platform" Mac universe does show a strength.

I'd personally love to see this handled by the GPU drivers.
 
sphinx99 said:
I'd personally love to see this handled by the GPU drivers.
Click to expand...

Agreed, then MS would get into a maddog rush to include it in THEIR APIs, because they do not want anybody else to control anything.

Actually, Adobe has led on this issue and no one else has followed. Graphics card vendors are always looking to out do each other, so that is the right place for this to happen.

Dave
 
It is also pretty strange that the HDTV industry is moving to wide gamut as well. If you do the research, you will see that most HDTV panels are 80%+ NTSC when they should be 75% NTSC (aka sRGB) for HD/Blu-Ray content.

It boggles my mind why the hell these manufacturers would do this. I can only guess it is so the marketing depts. can put some sort of flavor text in the advertisements "Our TVs show 105% of the NTSC color spectrum!!!!" or some BS like that.

Reminds me of the Deep Color/xvYCC crap that they advertise.
 
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Most HDTV's have the option to select the wider gamut though, I believe. It's not usually used by default. I'm guessing if Microsoft doesn't address the issue in a timely fashion, monitor manufacturers will.
 
HDTV won't help. One of the big disappointments of the format war was that neither HD-DVD nor BD supported wide gamut color spaces.... it's mostly about the same as we've had all long, just more resolution. There are improvements but not nearly enough to demand a dramatic push forward. So we're already limited by the video format itself, then don't expect video to push wide gamut development and support.
 
mike_j_johnson said:
It is also pretty strange that the HDTV industry is moving to wide gamut as well. If you do the research, you will see that most HDTV panels are 80%+ NTSC when they should be 75% NTSC (aka sRGB) for HD/Blu-Ray content.

It boggles my mind why the hell these manufactures would do this. I can only guess it is so the marketing depts. can put some sort of flavor text in the advertisements "Our TVs show 105% of the NTSC color spectrum!!!!" or some BS like that.
Click to expand...

Isn't camcorders becoming wide-gamut as well? Too bad theres no "wide-gamut standard" anyway so even if you have wide-gamut material you can bet that its still wrong.

I've also been struggling to find any other reason for manufacturers to push wide-gamut (other than PR). The only thing I can come up with is that it somehow would be easier/cheaper. With wide gamut there is less precision, this would also make it easier to score well in calibration-tests and since 99% of all reviewers speak of wide gamut as something (very) positive I'm not surprised that they continued with wide gamut. But the fact that reviewers haven't got this is an abomination.
 
sphinx99 said:
I don't expect this to get solved soon. Microsoft will say it's an application issue and push it there. The graphics card manufacturers will say it's an OS issue and avoid handling it with the GPU driver.
Click to expand...

My opinion is that it is mainly an OS issue:

- the OS is supposed to provide some "virtualization" of the hardware environment, ESPECIALLY for legacy softwares that were written using assumptions which were valid at the time. When basic assumption are no longer verified because of new hardware, the OS should try to provide an emulation of the previous behavior in order not to break older software (or current software that have no use of the newer capabilities).
- For new software, where the designers are aware of the new hardware, it can be discussed. But regarding colorspaces, sRGB is so ubiquitous that, in my opinion, it cannot be considered a design fault to assume it as the implicit colorspace. Also, many software cannot make any profitable use of wider gamut.
- Only the imaging software should address colorspace issues, by using a dedicated color API provided by the OS, and the API has been here for years. So the issue is really only the transparent handling of application implicitely using sRGB, a typical system-level work.

I'm not familiar enough with the LCD hardware to understand why newer monitors are mostly wide gamut, but it seems to be a consequence of the newer backlighting. Sadly, many people when looking at the display in the stores, tend to be impressed by their "punchy colors", eventhough these are completely wrong colorimetry wise (I mean, when sRGB images are displayed directly without correction).

Given the current lack of OS support for this situation, some high end monitors provide a true sRGB emulation through onboard logic (such as Eizo's ColorEdge I think) but it is expensive.
 
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