Send Sapphire a message

juniormlc

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 22, 2002
Messages
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Originally posted by RedShirt on Anandtech Forums:

"I know there were quite a few people that fell prey to that newegg deal (and others a while back) when the new 128-bit slower clocked Radoen 9800pro came out.

Many of you returned the card, but I'm sure some people that ordered the card without reading threads like the ones located on Anandtech Forums got the card and still probably think they have a real 9800 pro.

Send Sapphire a message, where it hurts the most, their pocketbook."

www.boycottsapphire.com
 
Im sure that in the website it states that it has a 128 bit memory bus rather than a 256 bit one. It's not really sapphire's fault because it was newegg who didn't make it clear.

This case is an example of how you have to be careful when buying stuff online.
 
The problem arises when a person who does not know a lot about computer hardware buys the card expecting the same performance as Johnny down the street who has a real 9800pro.

Granted, this person probably won't even realize his card is crippled, but it's still wrong for sapphire to take advantage of this.

Everyone who is an avid reader of HardOCP or any other computer hardware site will instantly know there is a difference. The problem is with people who aren't into computer hardware as much as us and don't even realize there is a difference.
 
Yep... one of my co-workers today started raving to me about this "kick-ass computer" he was getting. He said, and I quote, "man, it's a Pentium and everything!" At that point, I realized he had no clue, and I just had to smile and nod, knowing that my offer to build him a quality budget system had just been denied so he could get less for more with a pre-built. I think it might be a good thing for me in the end, however, as it saves me the hassle of being his tech support bitch whenever he breaks the cupholder.

-SEAL
 
SEALTeamSix said:
Yep... one of my co-workers today started raving to me about this "kick-ass computer" he was getting. He said, and I quote, "man, it's a Pentium and everything!" At that point, I realized he had no clue, and I just had to smile and nod, knowing that my offer to build him a quality budget system had just been denied so he could get less for more with a pre-built. I think it might be a good thing for me in the end, however, as it saves me the hassle of being his tech support bitch whenever he breaks the cupholder.

-SEAL

This post got me thinking on how this could be related to other areas of the hardware industry.

For instance, Intel has different 3.0 GHz chips based on different manufacturing processes. Intel gives them a name like Pentium 4 3.0C or something to that matter. The fact remains that the chips do in fact run at 3.0 GHz, and there is a letter that follows the name so the user knows which version they are getting.

If you go to ATI.com and look at the product comparison charts, you’ll notice all 9800 video cards are listed as having a 256-bit memory interface. No where is it noted there is a 128-bit version.

On top of this, Sapphire calls the card a 9800Pro, not a 9800ProLite, or 9800ProB or some different marking to let the user know it is different. The only thing is in the specs it says “128-bit version” or something like that. The user that doesn’t know much about hardware is not going to know there is ANY difference between this and a normal 9800pro. It seems as if Sapphire took misleading naming to a whole new level.
 
I still say Soviet Russia did it best, dragging those dimmers out and capping them. Too bad they ran out of bullets. :(
 
Vagrant Zero said:
I still say Soviet Russia did it best, dragging those dimmers out and capping them. Too bad they ran out of bullets. :(

No need for bullets when you have bayonets :)

-SEAL
 
Honestly when I first saw that 9800Pro listed on Newegg (looking first at the price after doing a search for "9800Pro") I thought "Cool thats pretty cheap for a 9800Pro!" that was then that I noticed that it was 128bits version. I thought something hinky was up since I know 9800Pros have 256.I really don't like the way that the product is named much like RedShirt said.
 
Uhh..
When did these crippled cards come out? Im wondering if thats why the performance seems sub par for a card like that.
 
I reckon the performance would be a lil better then a 9600Xt at nearly the same price..
 
Yeah, when did those come out? I'm pretty sure I got the 256 ver., but now you've got me thinking. Hmm...
 
Finding out whether or not you have the 256 bit version is easy:

Run 3Dmarks03 and if you get only around 4000, then you got a 128 bit version.
RUn AIDA32 and if it says 128 bit bus, then obviously you got a 128 bit version.
 
ForceCalibur said:
Finding out whether or not you have the 256 bit version is easy:

Run 3Dmarks03 and if you get only around 4000, then you got a 128 bit version.
RUn AIDA32 and if it says 128 bit bus, then obviously you got a 128 bit version.
You might also get a lower score if you run a slower processor or motherboard. I can't check now, but I believe ATI Tool shows you under some kind of detail pane.

http://atitool.ocfaq.com/
 
I think a small source of the confusion in the non-enthusiast group lies in the 128-bit and 128MB monikers. The full 9800 Pro has the full 128MB, yes, but it's a 256-bit bus, which usually isn't advertised with big, bold lettering. The crippled 9800 Pro just has another "128" on the box somewhere, and people usually remember just the number "128". I think they should do more than just put a sticker on the front of the box saying "128-bit".
 
I bought a 128-bit version off ZipZoomFly without knowing that it would be crippled. :p

I ran a few AM3 tests and I got crap scores of 32,000 when most other 9800Pros were 40,000+, so I got suspicious and looked into my card. Low and behond, I got the craptastic 128-bit version. Blegh. Just my luck.

I'm more pissed off at myself than I am at Sapphire. I should have done more research. I should have realized the deal was too good to be true. :(
 
uh oh, i bought a sapphire radeon 9800 pro from newegg a while back and reading this is making me worried.
how can i tell if my card is 128-bit? i ran ATI tool and it said my default core was 378 and my default memory was 337.50
 
creepcolony said:
uh oh, i bought a sapphire radeon 9800 pro from newegg a while back and reading this is making me worried.
how can i tell if my card is 128-bit? i ran ATI tool and it said my default core was 378 and my default memory was 337.50

I know RivaTuner at Guru3d will tell you.

Simply double click on the icon it installs in your tray, then on the main tab a little over halfway up it'll say how much RAM the card has, the Core revision, and the memory bus width.

As an example, mine says:
"256-bit R300 (8x1) with 128MB DDR memory" (I have a Sapphire 9500 softmodded to a 9700)

If it doesn't say there, click on the tab next to "customize" and select "Graphics subsystem diagnostic report" Scroll down to the bottom of the report preview and check out where it says "Memory Bus"

Hope this helps. I'm sure there are other easier tools to check this out, but I know this works for sure.
 
oh man, that's a low down dirty deal. And to think I held Saphire in such high(er) regards.

I personally would be P*SSED. They probably sold it knowing that some customers would think they had the 'real' thing. I'm glad I ponied up the extra $$$ for the retail ATI 9800 Pro. That being said, I'm still going home to check that it's the 256 bit version :p
 
juniormlc said:
Originally posted by RedShirt on Anandtech Forums:

"I know there were quite a few people that fell prey to that newegg deal (and others a while back) when the new 128-bit slower clocked Radoen 9800pro came out.

Many of you returned the card, but I'm sure some people that ordered the card without reading threads like the ones located on Anandtech Forums got the card and still probably think they have a real 9800 pro.

Send Sapphire a message, where it hurts the most, their pocketbook."

www.boycottsapphire.com

Personally....I think a boycott is pointless. :) All you have to do is read. If you don't take the time to look at exactly what you are buying then you get the wrong thing. Simple. How many people here have boycotted a company of a product because you walked in and bought the wrong thing? Show of hands?

Right.

Damn Colgate for not clearing marking mint and bubblegum flavor!

Its clearly marked on both Sapphires website AND Newegg as 128-bit. ATI never dicated a 9800Pro HAD to be 256-bit, hence the variety in speeds, fans, memory etc. :D

Sapphire Product Table
 
Blackwind said:
Personally....I think a boycott is pointless. :) All you have to do is read. If you don't take the time to look at exactly what you are buying then you get the wrong thing. Simple. How many people here have boycotted a company of a product because you walked in and bought the wrong thing? Show of hands?

Right.

Damn Colgate for not clearing marking mint and bubblegum flavor!

Its clearly marked on both Sapphires website AND Newegg as 128-bit. ATI never dicated a 9800Pro HAD to be 256-bit, hence the variety in speeds, fans, memory etc. :D

Sapphire Product Table

Blackwind, This has been discussed a little before. The problem is not for you or me. It's for the people that aren't into the industry. They probably research and determine they want a 9800 pro. They go to their local shop and see the sapphire for a little bit cheaper than the others and buy that, not knowing this "9800pro" is different than the "9800pro" made by PowerColor sitting right next to it.
 
RedShirt said:
Blackwind, This has been discussed a little before. The problem is not for you or me. It's for the people that aren't into the industry. They probably research and determine they want a 9800 pro. They go to their local shop and see the sapphire for a little bit cheaper than the others and buy that, not knowing this "9800pro" is different than the "9800pro" made by PowerColor sitting right next to it.

As a consumer it's your own responsibility to do your homework. Period. I'm not a car expert. that doesn't excuse me or make me "correct and justified" buying a car that has know issues and blaming and boycotting the car maker because I didn't do my homework. Sure, the car maker is at fault for making a shoddy product.

I'm also at fault for buying a car with known issues before doing my own research.

Sapphire isn't doing anything wrong IMO. Marketing is marketing. Branding and re-branding are well known practices and methods to sell products. Now if they were marking a 256-bit on a 128-bit product then by all means.....cry havoc! They aren't. They are marking 128-bit on a 128-bit product.
 
Blackwind, even if on ATI's own website it states all Radoen 9800's are 256-bit?

I think it's misleading the un-informed consumer. If they do research and find out they want a 9800pro, but do not know the difference between 128 and 256 bits, they get burned.

Different product, different name. That's what I think is correct.
 
I agree with BlackWind. It's my fault I didn't look into what the 128-bit entails.

However, Sapphire shouldn't mark the 128-bit version under the same name of 9800Pro. It simply isn't the same product. If Sapphire had simply renamed the card they would have stopped almost all the confusion that surrounds the cards right now. Consumers shouldn't have to worry if what they're buying is the genuine card, 'specially from a prominent company like Sapphire.
 
RedShirt said:
I know RivaTuner at Guru3d will tell you.

Simply double click on the icon it installs in your tray, then on the main tab a little over halfway up it'll say how much RAM the card has, the Core revision, and the memory bus width.

As an example, mine says:
"256-bit R300 (8x1) with 128MB DDR memory" (I have a Sapphire 9500 softmodded to a 9700)

If it doesn't say there, click on the tab next to "customize" and select "Graphics subsystem diagnostic report" Scroll down to the bottom of the report preview and check out where it says "Memory Bus"

Hope this helps. I'm sure there are other easier tools to check this out, but I know this works for sure.

cool, mine said 256-bit...thanks for the info
 
What is this deal you are talking about?

Some while ago i bought a sapphire 9800pro and just now checked the bus width and it is 265 bits. I bought it for $199.
 
are yall talkin about the really popular 9800pro for around 200$ at newegg? i want to buy that and it says 256-bit.

someone link to the deal or a cache of the deal
 
I completely agree with blackwind, this might be a bit silly, but you can compare it to buying a car. Even if you don't know what all the specs mean, you will try to learn. ABS, EMS..etc, you don't see car owners complaining when they've bought a car only to find that i only has 1 air bag. As a consumer, you must know about what you're doing, or else everything will become a gamble
 
Im gonna have to disagree.... i mean comon you really expect the "majority" of the people to understand the difference b/t 256/128 bit let alone know to look for it??

The difference should really be marked in the name, or have really large flags noting it in the description of the card :D

** analogy ** looking at two cars and they both are v8's but only in the fine print do you find out one makes 250hp and the other make 500hp..... BUT both were v8's ( bad example but its really early in the morning :( )

haha im fighten for the retarded majority!!!! :cool:

EDIT :: i don't think i even checked the fine print when i bought my 9800, and i know i didn't check it on my preorder for my x800xt...... but that more because im lazy :p
 
Ok, i just found the deal you are talking about...

I didnt know sapphire for making things like this, so i cant speak wether is neweggs mislead or sapphires mislead, or if it is a mistake. Though if after all this time, things havent changed...

I agree with people saying the card shouldnt be called the same. I mean when retailers make enhancements to the reference board of a given model they generally name it differently (like ultra o ultimate or something in the like) and state the in bold what exactly did they enhance.

But with this downgrade of the card, it was made silently. The name didnt change, and the change in the bus wasnt really that big in the title. Besides the fact that the word around is that sapphire never ever strays far from the reference design, and that that is one of the things that make their cards so good.

But all of this reasons above are just reasons why this is bad.

I believe this is misleading by either new egg or Sapphire because there hasnt been any change at all in new eggs page. I know some of you guys must have sent a line or two to Sapphire.
So why havent they changed it?
Because we are not the target market (we as in people who would read thru this scam.) They target people who barely now what radeon is and think they are getting the deal of their life with this. With this i mean now, im aware that some people here bought it... If it was me, and i had the resources (see i live outside the us so there is nothing i could do without spending big buckos on it) i would sue there asses off.

But thats just me.
 
vanquished said:
I completely agree with blackwind, this might be a bit silly, but you can compare it to buying a car. Even if you don't know what all the specs mean, you will try to learn. ABS, EMS..etc, you don't see car owners complaining when they've bought a car only to find that i only has 1 air bag. As a consumer, you must know about what you're doing, or else everything will become a gamble

I agree with you to a point, but just how much time does one have to devote to EACH and EVERY purchase? A video card is not a $20,000 dollar example like the one you mention. We're talking <$200. Imagine how much time the average consumer would have to put into doing serious research on every sub-$200 purchase. e.g. a video card? I mean, if there are at least 50 different flavors of cards out there, you would at least start to group by brand name and/or model. If EACH model starts to have different specs and parts, then the number of different cards would increase exponentially. Then lets talk about doing research on individual parts of that card. Who makes the memory? Who makes the PCB? How many layers? Does the black PCB make any difference besides color? Now let's talk about the manufacturers of the various pieces of the cards. Does Hynix make better RAM for video cards than Samsung? what about capicitors? Does the average consumer even know what capacitors are? If not, then are we to say that the consumer better start getting to know what capacitors are BEFORE they go to the store to upgrade their video card? I should hope not.
 
If anyone is curious on how exactly these cards look, here is a link of the product at newegg.

It is marked 128-bit so Newegg has done its part. It's the people that don't know the difference that will be shafted. For only around 20-30 more you can get a REAL 9800 pro.
 
Aside from being greedy, I dont see why Sapphire would do this. Sure the money is nice, but what good is $10,000,000 when you don't have anybody else to sucker and scam, because your loyalty and reputation is gone.
 
RedShirt said:
Blackwind, even if on ATI's own website it states all Radoen 9800's are 256-bit?

I think it's misleading the un-informed consumer. If they do research and find out they want a 9800pro, but do not know the difference between 128 and 256 bits, they get burned.

Different product, different name. That's what I think is correct.

What ATI places on their site relates to guess what.....their products. Hence...the "coolness" of buying Made by ATI. You buy a "clone" you need to ...guess what, REASEARCH their products. It took me less then a minute to:

A) Go to Sapphires website
B) Locate their ENTIRE product list
C) Read that they have a VARIETY of cards labeled 9800 Pro. And see what the difference was......Simple.


nVidia for years has allowed other vendors such as PNY to make their own version on whatever video chipset was hot that year. So was PNY or any other "clone" vendor lying by say...calling their Ti500 a Ti500.....and it ran on say.....a slightly slower clock speed? No. Same thing here.
 
Blackwind said:
What ATI places on their site relates to guess what.....their products. Hence...the "coolness" of buying Made by ATI. You buy a "clone" you need to ...guess what, REASEARCH their products. It took me less then a minute to:

A) Go to Sapphires website
B) Locate their ENTIRE product list
C) Read that they have a VARIETY of cards labeled 9800 Pro. And see what the difference was......Simple.


nVidia for years has allowed other vendors such as PNY to make their own version on whatever video chipset was hot that year. So was PNY or any other "clone" vendor lying by say...calling their Ti500 a Ti500.....and it ran on say.....a slightly slower clock speed? No. Same thing here.

No, it's not the same thing. I mean, back in the 9700/9500pro days, a 9500pro was the SAME as a 9700 except the memory interface was 128-bit. What would you have done if you bought a 9700 and received a 9500pro? I bet you'd be a little mad.

Again, I stress, this is not going to fool most of us HERE, it's the people that do not know much about hardware and research a normal 9800pro, go to the store and buy this because it's labeled as a 9800pro. If you cannot see that this can fool these people, then you are blind. Same name, different product. Not just clock speeds.
 
I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THIS!!!!

I just orderd a 9800pro and Got it, its a sapphire Atlantis 9800pro 256Meg with HL2 cupon. I orderd it from allstarshop.com for 275. I was thinking that it was an ok Deal because it wasn't that much more than a what I've found else where but it still had an HL2 cupon too. I just DLed Rivaturner and looked at the main tab and it says 128bit :( Now I feel like a jackass all just for a HL cupon.

I haven't tried to push the card but it runs Ok, I haven't pused the IQ settings yet or anything above 1024x768

Oh woe, woe is me.

Edit: this is the page I ordered from: http://www.allstarshop.com/shop/product.asp?pid=8652&sid=29VJG46VP6PP8NA5CKD6VK14HHADEHUA

It didn't have this much information on it when I was ordering, I followed the product link and read the whole sale page when i was selecting, it didn't say that the memory was 128 bit, In fact it didn't mention more than the ammount of memory and the product link of course is the updated page for the updated product and 256 bit memory. I had rejected a card earlier when I was searching for one, (I was still looking at 128 Meg cards and a very lower price range then and not even the pro models)
 
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