All those having psu troubles-read this (especially antec or generic troubles)

Hi all,
I have been seeing an incredible amount of posts that say "My Antec 550 has low voltage problems", "My generic psu blew up for the 4th time in a row", "is an Antec 430 enough for this rig", "Can my generic 300watt psu power my new prescott rig with 9 hard drives", and "Is Deer a good PSU?" posts. Hopefully this thread will help reduce those.

I want everyone reading this right now to understand two things.

1. MOTHERBOARD MONITOR 5, YOUR BIOS READINGS, AND ANY SOFTWARE READING PROGRAM ARE NOT ACCURATE. The only way to accuratley measure your voltage is with a digital multimeter. There is no excuse not to have one. They are less than $20 at radio shack, home depot, basically any hardware/electronic store. Before spending potentially hundreds of dollars on new psu's, or crying that the psu's lines are crap and damaging a companies reputation, test the damn lines with a multimeter. I've had motherboard monitor 5 report that my 12v line was 14v before. It was really 12.5. Don't believe it or bios.

****IF YOUR PROBLEM IS DROPPING VOLTAGE LINES, IT OFTEN ISNT A PROBLEM AT ALL, THE SOFTWARE IS JUST INACCURATE*****

2. Antecs are great psu's, but they are NOT reccomended for heavy overclocking. If you want stable, reliable operation with mild overclocking or low speeds, they are the ticket. However, their voltage lines DO drop when you hit around 3.8-4ghz Intel, 2.7-3ghz AMD. That is a fact. Ask any of the people that have experience with them.

For heavy, heavy overclocking there are really only 2 or three choices. This is how the breakdown goes. And yes, everyone that is on the front page of the ORB will agree.


Pc Power and Cooling Turbocool 510 Deluxe

The ABSOLUTE BEST normal, ATX power supply on the planet. Yes, its pricey, but worth every penny. Yes, I know, I have one. Here are the reasons it is the best power supply on the planet:

*510 REAL watts compared to 360ish REAL watts on the Antec 550. When looking at power supply ratings, you have to take into account that the majority of power supply companies out there (antec's the worst when it comes to this) rate their power supplies at 25C. So what you say? Well, power supply output DROPS as temperature goes UP. Its an inverse relationship. How many of your case temps, let alone power supply internal temps, are 25C? 2, maybe 3 people on the boards, if that? Pc Power and Cooling rates their supplies at 40C, which is the real average temp. Basically, if you want to compare using Antecs rating system, its 660 watts for the pcp&c to 550 watts for the antec.

*1% voltage regulation. Basically, if your 12v line drops to 11.88, OR your 5v line drops to 4.95v or your 3.3v line drops to 3.267 your psu is defective. Try that with the Antec lol.

*34 amps on the 12v line, 38 peak!!!!!! Compare to 24 on the antec. Thats the important line too, peeps, as thats what the cpu is powered off of in most cases

*5 year warranty compared to 3. speaks volumes for workmanship

*every wire sleeved, matte black finish. nothing to do with performance, but a nice touch, none the less.

**********GREAT FEATURE ALERT****you can adjust the internal pots without voiding warranty. They drill little holes over them for you so you can just stick a screwdriver in and turn. They will also mount the pots on 3 foot wires if you want so you can turn them externally.

*myraid types of electrical features, such as active pfc, line conditioning, etc.

I do understand, however that not every person can justify $220-310 on a power supply, so despair not, there is another great choice for you. Here it is:

Fortron 530watt

*think of it as everything I mentioned above except 1% line regulation, sleeved wires, slightly less amps, slightly less power. Awesome, Awesome psu. basically a pcp&c without the fit and finish. Internal adjustable pots, has the works. here's the kicker: $75 bucks!!!!! All that for $75 bucks!!!!! Best value out there, probably in any type of componet.
2nd best supply out there, bar none


Enermax/Coolergiant 660w

Heard very good things about this supply from many people, but I have no experience with it myself so I can't comment.

And If you Really Like Antec...
I suppose the Antec 550 watt trupower will power serious overclocks decently IF YOU VMOD it with external pots. If you don't, the lines will get too low.

Now on the issue of generic power supplies. 5 words:

DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT

Personally I have had 3 generics blow (out of three), and one catch on fire (that one was a deer ). I'm a fast learner . Generic power supplies will for the most part blow out if you try to use them to power a high power consumption rig. If you use one, you run the risk of it taking out every single componet in your system. Whats another $75 bucks (fortron 530) for the peace of mind that your $2000 pc will be nice, safe, and stable? Also, generic or underpower psu's often cause overheating, reboots, instability, lockups, power surges inside your pc, voltage drops, etc. Not things you want to be messing with if you like or rely on your computer like I and many other people on this forum do. Oh, if you have a Deer psu, they are also fire hazards and liable to burn down your house, killing your family, and ruining your life if you have crappy insurance. I'm not even kidding, if I hadn't been home when my deer went off....I don't even want to think about it. I don't care how little money you have, you can ALWAYS pick up at least an antec 430 (which you know at least will not catch on fire and is built with somewhat quality parts) for $38 shipped (an actual deal I just saw go on this forums classifieds). So skip lunch for a day or something and get a REAL psu. Your pc is an investment. Protect it.

Now a special note about the Antec 430 watter. This thing is possibly the best value besides the fortron 530watt out there, but it is NOT superman. This thing has gotten the reputation that it takes whatever you throw at, and it does....to a point. Look at my system in sig. Yes, it took all that to bring it down (kinda), but I finally did it. The antec trupower 430 was insufficient to power my system. I had to use two power supplies or I couldn't overclock for beans. The lines were dropping (measured with a DMM so they really were) and the air coming out was akin to a heatgun. This thing can take a lot of stuff, but please don't throw a prescott, 9 hard drives, 5 cd roms, 19 cold cathodes, and 55 fans at it. Guys, its a great psu, but not superman. Or should I say a pc power and cooling.

Sorry for the long post/rant, but I had to get it off my chest. Hope this helps a lot of people out there. I need to go ice my fingers after all this typing.

-computerpro3 out

computerpro3 said:

Antecs are great psu's, but they are NOT reccomended for heavy overclocking. If you want stable, reliable operation with mild overclocking or low speeds, they are the ticket. However, their voltage lines DO drop when you hit around 3.8-4ghz Intel, 2.7-3ghz AMD. That is a fact. Ask any of the people that have experience with them.

Click to expand...

So, what you're saying is that you are recommending against people buying PSUs for what they are going to be doing....
Most people, even the enthusiasts on the [H], are not pumping out 1ghz overclocks. Your experience with Antec stems from the fact that you use(abuse) your PSU, especially the +12v rail, much harder than 90% of the people asking questions in this forum, yet constantly harp on about how the Fortrons are much more stable than the Antecs, and whatnot. I don't overclock much, so I can't really tell you how stable any of the PSUs I own are at those levels. I can, however, tell you that you are doing a dis-serivce to the community by constantly putting down a good PSU company. As was mentioned in this thread, the Antecs have been shown to provide much cleaner power than the Fortrons, which IMO just as important as the sheer quantity of the power. Fortron units will push out tons of power, no doubt, but how clean is that power? As Ice Czar is fond of noting, here are the graphs; the Aopen is a re-badged Fortron; Note the graphs, they speak volumes

wow....

Vertigo Acid said:

Most people, even the enthusiasts on the [H], are not pumping out 1ghz overclocks.

Click to expand...

computerpro3 said:

heavy overclocking

Click to expand...

vertigo acid said:

I can, however, tell you that you are doing a dis-serivce to the community by constantly putting down a good PSU company

Click to expand...

computerpro3 said:

Antecs are great psu's. If you want stable, reliable operation with mild overclocking or low speeds, they are the ticket. Now a special note about the Antec 430 watter. This thing is possibly the best value besides the fortron 530watt out there. This thing has gotten the reputation that it takes whatever you throw at, and it does....to a point. Guys, its a great psu. You can ALWAYS pick up at least an antec 430 (which you know at least will not catch on fire and is built with somewhat quality parts)

Click to expand...

vertigo acid said:

constantly harp on about how the Fortrons are much more stable than the Antecs

Click to expand...

www.xtremesystems.org/forums. ask there with people that overclock a lot and have experience with both, unlike you. After all, you just did order yours and dont even have EXPERIENCE WITH ONE.

vertigo acid said:

Fortron units will push out tons of power, no doubt, but how clean is that power

Click to expand...

very, very clean. Ask Tedinde.

vertigo acid said:

I don't overclock much, so I can't really tell you how stable any of the PSUs I own are at those levels.

Click to expand...

So stop trying to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about when I DO have experience with both, I HAVE owned both, I DO overclock to that level, I HAVE taken measurements, and you havent. You dont know what you are talking about at this level. You just said it yourself.

YOU HAVEN'T EVEN HAD EXPERIENCE WITH EITHER OR THESE SUPPLIES; HOWEVER YOU JUST ORDERED THE ANTEC....seems clear why you are defending them

Hey this might be the first serious PSU flame war in our brand new psu forum.

I preach for moderation and calm whilst i don my flame (volatge?) retardant suit!

Here, I'll say it once to make you feel better since you bought the antec. Antec's are great psu's. Among the best in terms of silence, clean power, and raw power. Excellent in fact. Among the top three manufacturers. WHEN YOU ARE BELOW 3.9GHZ INTEL OR 2.8GHZ AMD. which you aren't going to be, nor the majority of users are. Hence, Antecs are excellent psu's for the majority of people.

If you ARE above that point, the antecs become hot, they flucutate voltages, give dirty power, and become overmatched. The lines drop, they become loud, etc. I have seen it happen personally with 3 different antecs, and have seen countless acounts at xtremesystems, where everyone abuses their pc like me. Antecs are not made for that, so you can't the company for them "failing" up there, but it does not change the fact that some psu's ARE made to be better suited for that purpose. Antecs aren't bad, its just that there are BETTER, CHEAPER alternatives. Period. IF you still do not acknolwedge that, you haven't done enough research before buying your psu.

I found little to fault in computerpro3 post
he is basically saying that, if you underpower a rig, even with an Antec you have issues
you all know about my "rants" regarding the way PSUs are rated, including test temperature (seems to apply) and the amount of draw from spinning up alot of HDDs (mentions that) and more importantly the transient response (stability under a dynamic load) to maintain an over the edge overclock and by implication protect the FSB and RAM

In most every review Ive seen, Fortrons rate at a higher amps per rail than listed
and the PCP&C's are actually rated at 40C, if they are at 25C like the rest those are 600Watt PSUs, with a max of 650 Watts

I will however point to Silent Mike's review here
Antec TrueControl 550 PSU

and the whole PSU review index here
http://www.silentpcreview.com/section4.html
including a Fortron 350

another thing of note
FSP Group (Fortron Source \ Sparkle Power) has in the past manufactered for PCP&C, as has Zippy and others
computerpro3 you have any way to log that MultiMeter, under a dynamic load?
Id be real interested to see that

While there have been many good points made here, there is something that hasn't been discussed at length(though it was brought up and then run over) and that is noise.Not to be confused with ripple. Having designed power supplies, both fullwave iron core and switchmode (what PC's use) powersupplies, noise is one of the key factors. The other two being voltage regulation and ripple. Noise is more critical in a switch mode powersupply than in other types of powersupplies because there are more places to induce noise than in a standard fullwave iron core due to the conversions involved - from 100VAC to DC to 6 kvac@ 3 khz ( for example) to DC again.
To distinguish noise from ripple, ripple is the regular fluctuation of a voltage within a given range. Noise is random trash that appears on the voltage line.
For example, if you had a 2mv ripple on a 12v dc line, the voltage would regularly vary from 12.001 to 11.999 VDC. Noise on the other hand is spuroius and it's range is dependant only upon its generation point.
Now I'm all for doing baseline voltage readings with a DMM, but when it comes to ripple and noise measurements, the tool of choice is an oscilloscope.
Now there is no doubt in my mind that the PC Power and Cooling PSUs are a fine supply. I am running an Antec 550 on a 700 MHz overclock and I have had zero issues with the supply. The only item holding me back at the moment is my motherboard, which requires voltage mods that are planned for later on, mostly because my SMC soldering skills aren't what they used to be.
Now As I said PCP&C supplies are a fine supply, but you seem to have copied their advertising flyer as part of your post.
Have you:
Set up a test jig where the maximum load is leveled across the voltage outputs, turned on the supply, placed the supply in a room heated to 40C, left it there for an hour or so and checked the output voltages?
Then, place sharply varying loads across the outputs, and monitoring the voltage/current response times ( load vs current vs time to recover to regulated voltage of the outputs), thereby simulating actual use of a PC?
Taken ripple or noise measurements at these temperatures?
These are tests that serious testers and manufacturing plants perform.
I know, I've had to do them for PCBs' that I've created.

Now, in my home, in Northern NY, where today it got to a blistering 85F, My fraile and retiring wife absolutly insisted that we turn the air conditioning on and maintain a temperature of 68F (not for her sake of course but for MY poor panting Husky puppy) my internal case temp has not gotten above 24C. All the critical heat generating components (save the PSU and HDDs') are water cooled. Again - no temperature issue here.
In the server room of the ISP I currently work at, the redundant, isolated (meaning that these 2 AC units feed this room and this room only), AC units keep the room temperature at 50F (we wouldn't want a server error preventing Grandma from getting her email would we?) In both of these locations I have had no issues with Antec PSUs'.
Now should I need to over engineer a system to work outdoors in Phoenix, AZ in August, where it routinely gets to 120F by 11AM, then, OK. I may need to utilize a PCP&C unit. But I know that I'm not going to be operating that system, 'cause I know I'll be inside in the air conditioning.

I do not advocate the use of generic PSUs' for anything other than Grandmas' email box. Iffy component selection, shoddy magnetics, third rate capacitors and series pass transistors that are seconds from a component remarker do not qualify for a reliable system for my money.
For overclocking, the names that come to my mind are:
Enermax
Antec

PCP&C is a consideration, if the enviroment warrants it, but seldom does this occur. Simply put, there is no need.
The first server I ever built, A P4 unit for a small medical records business (40 users, 40 Gb storage space) utilizes an Antec 400 watt supply. I've had a hard drive failure there - one drive in a raid array. No other hardware issues. It's never turned off. it's never rebooted. It's accessed constantly. It's been 3 years.
Seems to be a fairly good testament.
Don't you think?

OH, btw the PSU has been here since Thursday, and i've thrown in it both my systems just for the hell of it, and it's just as stable in a dual CPU config w/ multiple SCSI hard drives as it is in my main gaming rig. Granted, this is not very much time, nor was the test any more thourough than getting out the DMM and doing some Prime95, but I know my dualie set-up draws more power than the rig in your sig simply because of the SCSI and the multiple CPUs.

Among the top three manufacturers. WHEN YOU ARE BELOW 3.9GHZ INTEL OR 2.8GHZ AMD. which you aren't going to be, nor the majority of users are.

Click to expand...

Bullshit
Most people on this forum are not running AMDs higher than 2.8ghz, or Intels higher than 3.9ghz. It's a fact of life that not everyone, even in an enthusiast community, is a heavy overclocker. So therefore, why recommend PSUs as if they are?

I don't overclock much, so I can't really tell you how stable any of the PSUs I own are at those levels


So stop trying to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about when I DO have experience with both, I HAVE owned both, I DO overclock to that level, I HAVE taken measurements, and you havent. You dont know what you are talking about at this level. You just said it yourself.

Click to expand...

I represent the average enthusaist user in that sense, and so I believe that my PSU experience is more relavent than yours, because I haven't lost touch with what's going on in the community in general.

Car analogy:
Person A has a Ford Taures
Person B has a Dodge Intrepid
Person A races their Taures, and has chosen it over the Intrepid because the Intrepid starts having problems steering around 90mph
Person A also says the the Intrepid is poor choice for a car, because it has steering problems. Person B says that it's a great car for what it's designed for.

very, very clean. Ask Tedinde.

Click to expand...

Where's Tedinde? Numbers? Graphs? Any thing?
...
Like I linked to before, here are some *real* numbers

YOU HAVEN'T EVEN HAD EXPERIENCE WITH EITHER OR THESE SUPPLIES; HOWEVER YOU JUST ORDERED THE ANTEC....seems clear why you are defending them

Click to expand...

OK don't even start that, I was recommending Antec looooooooong before this PSU forum even existed, before I even owned an Antec PSU.

where everyone abuses their pc like me. Antecs are not made for that, so you can't the company for them "failing" up there, but it does not change the fact that some psu's ARE made to be better suited for that purpose. Antecs aren't bad, its just that there are BETTER, CHEAPER alternatives. Period. IF you still do not acknolwedge that, you haven't done enough research before buying your psu.

Click to expand...

What I am saying is that thinking that everyone abuses their PC like you is ignorant and tunnel-visioned; Look around and see that most people asking for recommendations could care less whether their PSU has problems when under 1ghz+ overclocking; In those situations, i'm all for recommendtion a Fortron. But down in reality, where most people run their boxes, the Antec whups the Fortrons in terms of voltage stability and noise. See above graphs. Like I said, Fortrons can spew the power, there is no doubt about that. But most users do not need even 350w PSUs for their systems, which you know.

So can we agree of the following things?
Antec makes good PSUs
Fortron makes good PSUs
Fortron units consistantly have been shown to put out more than rated power
Antec units have been tested and show very tight transient response and low ripple
People who overclock their computers very heavily prefer/recommend Fortron units because of their ability to push out so much juice, espcecially on the +12v rail
For the average enthusiast, either brand would do just fine, although the Antec is better regulated at those levels
Fortron is a better value/amp

Fafnir said:

The first server I ever built, A P4 unit for a small medical records business (40 users, 40 Gb storage space) utilizes an Antec 400 watt supply. I've had a hard drive failure there - one drive in a raid array. No other hardware issues. It's never turned off. it's never rebooted. It's accessed constantly. It's been 3 years.
Seems to be a fairly good testament.
Don't you think?

Click to expand...

the older Antec PSUs, pre "True" series were great PSUs. like Tedinde and computerpro3, i've had problems with the TruePower and TrueControl PSUs.

Vertigo Acid, you might also want to point out that the website you linked doesn't have any Fortron/Sparkle graphs, and the 450w PCP&C they tested is not even being manufactured anymore.

Ice Czar said:

I found little to fault in computerpro3 post
he is basically saying that, if you underpower a rig, even with an Antec you have issues
you all know about my "rants" regarding the way PSUs are rated, including test temperature (seems to apply) and the amount of draw from spinning up alot of HDDs (mentions that) and more importantly the transient response (stability under a dynamic load) to maintain an over the edge overclock and by implication protect the FSB and RAM

In most every review Ive seen, Fortrons rate at a higher amps per rail than listed
and the PCP&C's are actually rated at 40C, if they are at 25C like the rest those are 600Watt PSUs, with a max of 650 Watts

I will however point to Silent Mike's review here
Antec TrueControl 550 PSU

and the whole PSU review index here
http://www.silentpcreview.com/section4.html
including a Fortron 350

another thing of note
FSP Group (Fortron Source \ Sparkle Power) has in the past manufactered for PCP&C, as has Zippy and others
computerpro3 you have any way to log that MultiMeter, under a dynamic load?
Id be real interested to see that

Click to expand...

log the fortron or the pcp&c...I dont have the fortron anymore; I got rid of it when I got the antec (bnig mistake).. I could probably figure out a way to measure that though, although I'm not sure how you would do it except via mbm5 which is a joke...

ive been dealing with cheap PSUs my entire technician career (more then ten years). I agree that most users, whether on this forum or not, don't need a huge amount of watts output from their supply, however I don't like the idea of putting a cheap supply in any box that actually has parts worth a total of $500 or more in it. At one time I was head technician for a computer store and the owner insisted that we use nothing but 'super case' cases, which came with Deere power supplies... oh, the horror! On the other hand, Ive had very good luck with some noname PSUs... if you can call enlight no name anyways. they SEEM to be very good, stout, clean supplies.

When choosing companies for ANY product not just computer products, I heavily lean towards their warranty services, how difficult to deal with or easy to deal with their RMA procedures and staff are.When Kyle of Hard OCP had a brand new antec totally fry an engineering sample P4 back when P4 was preproduction and they wouldnt even talk to him, I decided I would never be getting one, simply because they are EXTREMELY lacking as a company as a whole. The money in my purse goes to good companies who put out good products AND BACK THEM UP, as should anyone's money.

Another important consideration IS cost, and because of that factor, I am forced to, at the moment, be running some noname 400w in my system. It seems to be doing well though, although I cannot measure noise because I have no Oscilliscope right now, I can measure voltages with my multimeter, and it does pretty good. I am, however, purchasing a case with a 460w enlight WTX supply, and am going to be using that along with 10 SCSI drives quite soon. I'll see how that goes.

felix88 said:

Vertigo Acid, you might also want to point out that the website you linked doesn't have any Fortron/Sparkle graphs, and the 450w PCP&C they tested is not even being manufactured anymore.

Click to expand...

Actually, it *does* graph a Fortron re-badge, an Aopen 400w FSP400-60GN

There are some great points made here, but what I don't understand is why would someone invest at least $1000.00 (I bet on average at least) and not be willing to spend alittle more on a PS to rest easy knowing that your 24/7 uptime will perform without a hitch. If you need an analogy Buy a perfomance car and put cheep tyres on it.

Exactly, i've been saying that to people for a long time, but also add in a good UPS, or at the very least a very good surge protector w/ warrenty

Fafnir great post wasnt able to locate a scope shot on a PCP&C though
xbit labs reviews cover ripple and noise and here is a Zalman ZM300A-APF which is in fact a Fortron FSP300-60PLN
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/zalman-psu_3.html
a Zalman ZM400A-APF which is in fact a another Fortron (SPI Electronics) a slight variation on a FSP400-60PFN
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/zalman-psu_5.html

I think many may be missing the qualifiers on computerpro3's post
namely that he isnt addressing "normal" rigs, Ive been running a (requisite Mel Brook's joke here) Abby Normal, rig for quite some time, in one variation or another, with upto 12 HDDs, 2 Opticals, a butt load of fans, full slots, its varied alot and componenets have come and gone, but its still a power hungry beast with a whole hell of alot of motors to spinup
(not to mention an overclockers rig might be asked to do that and a pump, lights and TEC)

It had problems when it was just an Antec PP403X
so I synchd a Enermax 400watt and split the load (which was overkill)
I then switched to a Zippy MR3-6460P 650Watt (N+1 redundant, cause I had it)
and with my K8W I got a PCP&C EPS12V 510 watt
so Ive actually been dropping down in watts from 800 to 650 to 510

the point is, those arent "normal" rigs, and his post isnt aimed at "normal" rigs either
he talking about monsters looking for monster overclocks
and while Im not an overclocker, I do have a few monsters, with alot of RAM Id like to see recieve the most stable power I can manage, from the outlet to the IC
and the PSU is a big link in that chain, Im far less concerned with my older boards
I think their tolerances are much fatter and I have less money on the line, I still use that PP403X

regarding the normal operating temperature of 40C
thats inside the PSU enclosure and of course its variable depending on the ambient case temperature and the PSU location, but quite often that is directly above the exhaust of the CPUs heat sink, and per the AMD builder guide for the Athlon platform which recommended a bottom fan to use the PSU as a heat exhaust
40C in the PSU itself isnt an unreasonable estimate or working figure, if possible throw a sensor in there
but more importantly recognize that the 25C testing figure is an unreasonable one
I just dont see the air exiting the HSF and into the PSU at 25C

Regarding Generics
A Different Perspective on Power Supplies
Power supplies become increasingly expensive

Ok we have heard alot of shit talking about these brands... but lets look at this new brand in the mix.. Vantec...

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDIy

Remember the old p4 @ 4.44 ghz [H] did a while back? Well they used a Vantec 520w to do it, now I am not the smartest man in the world.. but if that thing can handle that much of a cpu load... why isn't it in this conversation?

~Adam

actually I cant say definatively it isnt already

Ive heard rumors that at least part of the Vantec Line are in fact Topower
just like some Thermaltake's are likely Sirtec
that PSU could even be a Fortron (Hypothetically) the point is we dont know

there are alot of brands, but fewer manufacturers
and manufacturers make different models with different components

and when it come to a PSU review, or a power supply youd see in a review of a mobo
well, thats not day in day out, its an extremely short time frame, and they are rarely testing the PSU.

And thats not in your neighborhood, where the power might be less than ideal, and its not with your specific load of components

Kyle is on record as not interested in testing PSUs
because hes not in a position to do it justice, few are
the best Ive seen being silentPCreview and xbitlabs (for English sites)

if you see a review and they are using MBM, take it with a grain of salt
Ive never maintained that there arent alot of good PSUs out there

but there is a snafu with the standards (ATX \ ATX12V v1 \ v2, EPS12V) and how the extra need for power has been addressed by various mobo manufacturers,
the quality of the voltage regulation on the mobos, and the vast amount of variables that an end user could end up involving because of the number and variety of components they adopt

and finally, my biggest gripe, how the specifications are obtained
the "inflation" of claims by the PSU manufacturers, and the almost total lack of independent confirmation of the specs

I'm a strong supporter of the Vantec Steath line, I use a 520 in my dual rig and haven't had a problem at all.

ever pop the top and poke around for numbers that might determine its manufracturer?
(see those 2 Zalman links)

computerpro3 said:

log the fortron or the pcp&c...I dont have the fortron anymore; I got rid of it when I got the antec (bnig mistake).. I could probably figure out a way to measure that though, although I'm not sure how you would do it except via mbm5 which is a joke...

Click to expand...

youd employ a Multimeter with an interface to a computer of other device and software to record a log

and finally found the link (knew I had it somewhere) for an amdmb test that included testing AC Ripple on DC outputs including a PCP&C 510

10 ATX Power Supplies Compared

PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 510 PFC” If you need a high-wattage PSU with clean, well regulated outputs without any frills then the Turbo-Cool 510 is my pick. It had the lowest AC ripple of any unit tested with excellent voltage stability. Other units in the Turbo-Cool line offer similar performance, if you don’t need a full 650 watt peak capacity. The Turbo-Cool 510 comes with active Power Factor Correction and is available in an optional deluxe version that includes sleeved wiring harnesses, a black case and voltage adjustments. And the PC Power & Cooling units are the only ones that carry a full 5 year warranty.

Click to expand...

the PCP&P Turbo Cool 510 > +3.3V, +5V, +12V = 10mV, +5VSB = 20mV
followed by the Antec True Control 550 > +3.3V, +5V = 10mV, +12V = 25mV, +5VSB 20mV
and a Zalman that is likely a Fortron close behind


from the link above @ amdmb.com (but I hosted it seperately, while it lasts)
a review worth reading and another example of a review done right

.of course without a shot of the scope, noise isnt really addressed

TY Ice Czar and I like your posts as well. Lots of good point made and I think we all agree that generic PSUs' need investigation before application.
Application consideration is also a very good point and as a matter of note, I can see my piggy bank getting cracked in half to acquire a PCP&C unit.
I may be able to talk a local mfring plant into allowing me the use of their oven. the trick to the matter here is (Other than calling in favors) to get an O'scope to interface into the room, as I'm not willing to expose my o'scope to those conditions (they are a bit pricey).
I need to go see these folks anyway, as I'm going to try to convince one of their solder techs to mod my MB for me.

Jaqui, glad to have you here. your experiance will be a bounty to us all.

Fafnir have you seen Silent Mike's test rig a silentPCreview?

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article148-page1.html
specifcally page 2
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article148-page2.html
which it about the thermal simulation

Im lucky in that I employ Rackmounts and really dont have the heatsink "dump" into my PSU, infact it has a rather "clean" air intake as Ive isolated it from the mobo, and upstream there are only a few HDDs and an Optical on that side in front of the typical row of mid-cabinet fans

but that is fairly atypical in here

Im real happy we are beginning to attract the "expertise" this forum will need to put some percpective on the buying decisions which are brought here every day
(look forward to your results jaqie


I am by nature conservative, recommending as strong of a "PSU link" as is possible for the
power delivery chain, largely because both upstream and down stream on the chain, the variables of so unknown, it would be great if everyone was employing power conditioning or a UPS, and if the quality of a given mobos power distribution and control where known
but both of those are pretty unlikely.

In addition because of the lack of independent confirmation of the specs of a given PSU. And finally, Id hate to be responsible for recommending a PSU that actually failed to perform and potentially end up damaging expensive components.

My title adds weight to my recommendations whether deserved or not, all it really means is Im qualified (more or less) to keep the peace
What I say should be judged by its own merits, like anyone else.
But it does make me conservative.

I"m confused on this statement by computerpro3 " *510 REAL watts compared to 360ish REAL watts on the Antec 550." Call me wrong but do not the Antec true series supply seperate voltage to the rails? So the combined 360 is wrong. I know my 480 true power says all rails are supplied independently with giving 460 real watts. Also the antec 3% regulation isnt to shabby. It's not PCP&C but for those that don't insanely overclock or do very mission critical projects I'm not sure why he's knocking antec so much. Even PCP&C have turned out the odd unit that has gone belly up, no company makes a 100% perfect product every time, all the time.

LOL this is good, everyone is venting, atempting to justify opinion. When we count the posts for PSU issues, and how many people have chosen a PSU that simply will not properly power their system. The line of logic seems clear, But we will always have those that want their cake and eat it too and when it doesn't work will try and prove every other part in thier computer is at fault than their own decision making process in choosing a poor, cheap PSU or one underpowered to do the job, spread this among the several forums I read and it's almost comical. I have yet to come across a slew of PC Power & Cooling issues from anyone who has one, they have obviously done thier homework. In the end You get what you pay for, you want headaches, random BSOD's and generally grey hair buy a generic PSU. You want aggravation buy a 300W PSU for a P4 You want to enjoy your new computer and have little to worry, buy a good product with good clean power and leave yourself enough headroom for a few future upgrades. Why is that so hard to accept. People are spending thousands here and still there are those telling them to risk it all on a $40 PSU. I guess these are the same people who think a Dodge Neon and the PT cruiser are different cars...lol With generic its hit or miss, why gamble to save a few bucks, is it really worth it. And just for the record I have over 10 years in Aviation and Avionics and I currently teach several electrical courses at a College. I have built several rigs over the years, thay are all still running just fine, in fact I've only ever had to replace one component in all that time....( not a PSU) this is not luck, its called doing the homework and choosing components wisely. If the computer is for getting on the internet, word processing sure Antec and the like will do just fine if you choose the right one. You have harsh a environment, heavily O/C, do serious gamming, video editing etc you need the extra "muscle" period. I for one don't feel the need to build into my system a bit of luck as to wheather or not its going to "be enough" Thats just my two cents Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion But please say its opinion not fact, there are people who come to these forums looking for help based on fact not opinion We would think you'd like this forum to be taken seriously and considered a good place for advice, not the NY Times of computers (were opinion is passed off as fact) I have recomended many times for someone to get Antec or Enermax because it suited the situation, for others only PC Power & Cooling will do. Enough said. Let the Flames begin...lol . twajetmech

twajetmech said:

and leave yourself enough headroom for a few future upgrades.

Click to expand...

twajetmech thanx for the insight

and the above statement directly touches on another point
in the past investment in a PSU could be considered an infrastructure investment
and as such the ATX standard has alot of inertia behind it, so much so that when the extra +12V amps was required, that almost all mobo manufacters adopted to ignore the new ATX12V v2 standard with the 24 pin ATX main power connector in favor of not making their customers shell out more for a new PSU and added some form of 4 pin connector supplemental to the board (some normal molex connectors) the same goes with supplemental power of with video cards, instead of widespread adoption of AGP Pro
All this to retain the "typical" 20 pin main power connector on legacy ATX PSUs and compatibility

leading the unsophisticated consumer to ask, well I got a 400Watt isnt that good enough?
with the invariable answer, hell Im running a 350 watt and have more components powered than that

but different amp distribution
a good 350 watt is far better than a crap 500 watt

In the workstation and server market, the standard has "normalized" with the adoption of EPS12V compliant SSI PSUs

but in the desktop market its still in flux, and will be even more so with the adoption of BTX

so its no longer a infrastructure investment, and that little bit extra, might be for your antique collection of monster ATX form factor mobos, compared to your nice petite picoBTX


Myrdhinn, Im pretty sure computerpro3 reference to "REAL" 510 watts means that that figure was derived at 40C as a test temperature, the power supply when compared to the Antec test parameters of 25C would actually be a 600 Watt PSU, and have a max output of 650 Watts
PCP&Cs offer the fattest amps per rail of any desktop PSU I know,
(excluding redundant shared bus N+1s which go all the way up to +800watts possibly more)
and the Fortron 530 right up there as well, and every time I see them reviewed, come in well over their ratings on amps

I suspect that FSP Group (Fortron Source \ Sparkle Power) is again manufacturing for PCP&P
but likely "to spec" of a PCP&C design, and there are likely several manufacturers rounding out their various models
(Zippy Emacs for instance, a big player in server PSUs)

ATX = 20 pin plug, your Pentium III's ATX connector and PS

ATX12V v1.1 = 20 pin atx connector + 4-pin plug for "Additional 12V" (same pdf as above)

ATX12V v2.0 = 24 pin atx connector + 4-pin plug for "Additional 12V"

ATX12V v2.2 = 24 pin atx connector + 4-pin plug for Aux +12V to support PCI Express

SSI Compliant PSUs

EPS12V v1.6 = Power supply with 24-pin EPS12V connector, plus one 8-pin additional 12v connector

EPS12V v2.1 = Power supply with 24-pin EPS12V connector, plus one 8-pin additional 12v connector
added higher power levels for 650 watt PSUs and updated 12v peak requirements for 450 & 550 watt PSUs

EPS1U v2.1 = Power supply with 24-pin EPS12V connector, plus one 8-pin additional 12v connector fitting into a 1U height

EPS2U v2.1 = Power supply with 24-pin EPS12V connector, plus one 8-pin additional 12v connector fitting into a 2U height

ERP2U v2.0 = Redundant Power Supply with 24-pin EPS12V connector, plus one 8-pin additional 12v connector fitting into a 2U height



Organizations

SSI = Server System Infrastructure, an Intel spec, which, among other things, defines the "EPS" "enhanced" ATX specification

FormFactors.org

BTX PSU Form Factors

Balanced Technology Extended Interface Specifications v 1.0a Describes basic 24 pin main power connector and Aux +12V 4 pin connector

CFX12V v1.0 = 24 pin + Aux 4 pin +12V Power connector Compact Form Factor with 12V connector

LFX12V v1.0 = Low Profile Form Factor with 12 Volt Connector

Special PSU Form Factors

TFX12V v1.2 = 20 pin connector Thin Form Factor with 12V Connector

TFX12V v2.0 = 24 pin connector Thin Form Factor with 12V Connector

SFX12V v2.3 = 20 pin connector Small Form Factor with 12V Connector

SFX12V v3.0 = 24 pin connector Small Form Factor with 12V Connector

"Updates for these design guides include an increased +12 VDC output capability to support system components that are continuing to increase in power, minimum efficiency for both standby and active modes of operation, details on an optional S-ATA power connector to support devices such as S-ATA drives, and acoustic guidance to support low noise systems. PS3 mechanical guidance has also been introduced into the SFX12V Power Supply Design Guide."

Click to expand...

-Intels Desktop Form Factors for ATX12V, SFX12V and TFX12V PSU Design Guides

Now we're starting to get places! The test rig that they have developed is good in that it more closely approximates a PC case, but I'm not sure that they will be able to maintain a constant ambient temp. This also overcomes the test instrument interface issue, allowing standard instruments to interface the unit.
I'm used to having an 8x10 room as an oven, so this is a good approach. I'd like to see an O'scope here, preferably one with memory and a serial or usb output, but then ppl in hell want icewater.....

Myrdhinn said:

I"m confused on this statement by computerpro3 " *510 REAL watts compared to 360ish REAL watts on the Antec 550." Call me wrong but do not the Antec true series supply seperate voltage to the rails? So the combined 360 is wrong. I know my 480 true power says all rails are supplied independently with giving 460 real watts. Also the antec 3% regulation isnt to shabby. It's not PCP&C but for those that don't insanely overclock or do very mission critical projects I'm not sure why he's knocking antec so much. Even PCP&C have turned out the odd unit that has gone belly up, no company makes a 100% perfect product every time, all the time.

Click to expand...

you're right, I should have said WHY its only 360 real watts. My bad. Maybe this will explain it better. The "real" power that I am talking about has nothing to do with the voltage rails. You are right when you say that the antec has 3 seperate rails, and thats a good thing. However, tell me this....what is your case temp? Then, stick a thermometer INSIDE your psu and tell me what the temp is. 35,40C+? Thats about right. IT is a fact that in psu's, as temperature rises, output decreases. When you look at wattage on a power supply, it is important to note at what temperature the rating is taken. Antec and the vast majority of the industry rate their psu's at the HIGHLY unrealistic temperature of only 20C!!!!! I don't think anybody's case temp is 20C, let alone the internal psu temp after 4 hours of ut2004!!! So According to antec, their 550 watt trupower puts out 550 watts @ 20C. I don't doubt that for a second. However it is misleading to say that their psu's put out 550 watts, beacuse under normal conditions, they just dont. When looked at at a more realistic temperature, say 40C, the Antec's power output drops to 360 watts. Pc Power and Cooling rates their psu's at the much more realistic temperature of 40C. At 40C, the pcp&c 510 deluxe pumps out 510 watts compared to 360 for the antec. If the pcp&c were rated as the antec were, at 20C, it would put out 660watts. Thats what I meant by REAL power. Hope that helped!

So, what is this I hear some PS companies are making PSUs with extra 12v rails? Is this what the ATX12 v.1.2 standard is talking about or is this different? I ordered a FSP-530 which should be here by Friday. I sure hope you guys are right. I don't overclock, but I always like solid & reliable performance and future proof for the current standard. I know the importance of good solid PSUs. I have learned the hard way about el cheapo PSU. I have always leaned towards Antecs since I knew about them and feel like I am taking a chance with another brand. But based off of many I took the dive for a Fortron. Thanks and look forward to the answers to my questions. Thanks again.

Bob2001

rsnellma said:

So, what is this I hear some PS companies are making PSUs with extra 12v rails?
Bob2001

Click to expand...

they arent "extra" the +12V rail has been independent through the whole spec
the +3.3V and +5V is the "typical" shared rail

but what your hearing is that because the CPUs need more power
and the Graphic cards as well, the extra power required is being delivered outside of the main power connector to a supplemental connector on the mobo (a 4 pin or in the case of EPS12V an 8 pin)
and they keep increasing how much current the +12V rail needs to supply
in addition the mobos that are still being released with 20 pin connectors
arent long for this earth, as all the standards are shifting to 24 pin connectors
and while there will be a brisk business in ATX 20 pin to 24 pin adapters

you need to have the +12V amps to power that
which is where the generics of yesteryear are so very weak,
and even the quality PSUs of yesteryear need to be checked

and then there is the "quality" of the PSU under the higher loads demanded
the Voltage regulation of the incoming current, the ability to adapt to a changing load internally without a spike or brownout on the rail, the ripple and noise, and finally the efficeincy, a PSU that is 67% effcient transforms 67% of the power coming in to useful current, but the 33% remaining is coverted directly to heat. (of course the 67% is as well but by the components)

Also, another reason for the seperation of +12v into multiple rails is because of the standards themselves; There are rules about maximum output during short-circuits and similar events for safety reasons that would be exceed using only one +12v, so by spliting it up you can have high-wattage power supplies that still meet the standard.

? there are seperate +12V rails? so there are dual +12V buses, or just connectors in the PSU?
and the mobo has dual buses?

where does the word rail fall in the PSU or in the mobo?

Im pretty sure there is a single +12V rail in the PSU

and Id like confirmation please

ill have not read all the post in this thread, however i would just like to state not ALL generic power supplys are bad.

i bought a maxtop case from newegg a few years ago. it came with a generic 350 watt psu. i used it for over 9000 hours [a little over a year] without any problems. at times i would go 3-4months without turning my computer off for more than 5 minutes. not all generic psus are trash.

which implys a mobo of the same vintage correct?

for example:
http://www.enermax.com.tw/products_page.php?Tid=1&gon=236&Gid=26&Gid2=35
Those power supplies have 4 independent +12v rails

Usually, it is set up so that the mobo/cpu is getting power off of one of them, and then the other devices use the other ones, however many that may be

computerpro3, okay, that makes a bit more sense.

On a side note, are you using the comparision of the pcp&c 510 vs 550 from pcp&p site? Just wondering since whatever 550 they are comparing again it isnt the antec... ex. they say 5% reg for the 550, antec is 3%... they say the 550 is not intel listed, antec is indeed intel listed. Now it's prob moot as far as volt droppage at 40C but otoh I've never seen anyone actually provide reliable test results with antec at those temps os saying it drops to 360w is just plain guesswork.

All said and done, I agree pcp&c are the tops for a psu, no doubts there.

I am impressed with the technical knowledge of power supplies demonstrated by several individuals in this thread. I think it is a worthwhile discussion.

The hunt for a good power supply is however not usualy based on multimeters and benches , it is usualy intiaited by system anamolies, pws failure or catastraphic occurances.

Computer pro 3 , while taking a bull in a china shop approach , was merely trying to shed some light on a subject that comes up quite often. A more diplomatic approach would have been more useful as some people do not read with detail and full comprehension in mind. Once they see words like DO NOT and so on it insights them to predetermined notions.

My personal experience althought anecdotal, is consistant with what ComputerPro3 has stated and I am no longer a serious overclocker. My experiences with Fortron and Enermax have been positive but quite frankly I was dissappointed with my Antec True Power 550(required modifications by its new owner as I understand it.) All I can say is this: I have had 0 issues with myPCP& C thats 0 . No mysterious lock ups , hangs, reboots you name it. My rig has run absolutely perfect since I went that route.

I dont care about ratings on the rails. My rig is the best test and it gives me a thumbs up.

Vertigo Acid said:

for example:
http://www.enermax.com.tw/products_page.php?Tid=1&gon=236&Gid=26&Gid2=35
Those power supplies have 4 independent +12v rails

Usually, it is set up so that the mobo/cpu is getting power off of one of them, and then the other devices use the other ones, however many that may be

Click to expand...

now that is interesting
and is the first spec Ive seen broken out that way
DC OUT....Rip&Noise...Tolerence...Rng1..Max/Min..Range 2.......Range 3........Range 4
+12V 1 ......120mV ......+5%,-4%..... 1.5A / 14A..... 0.5A / 5A.....1.5A / 14A... 0.5A / 9A
+12V 2 ......120mV ......+5%,-4%..... 1.5A / 16A..... 0.5A / 4A ....1.5A / 18A... 0.5A / 6A
+12V 3 ......120mV ......+5%,-4%..... 1.5A / 16A .....0.5A / 6A ....1.5A / 16A... 0.5A / 9A
+12V 4 ......120mV ......+5%,-4%..... 1.5A / 14A .....2A / 5A .......1.5A / 14A... 2A / 9A

how do you interpret that?

Myrdhinn said:

computerpro3, okay, that makes a bit more sense.

On a side note, are you using the comparision of the pcp&c 510 vs 550 from pcp&p site? Just wondering since whatever 550 they are comparing again it isnt the antec... ex. they say 5% reg for the 550, antec is 3%... they say the 550 is not intel listed, antec is indeed intel listed. Now it's prob moot as far as volt droppage at 40C but otoh I've never seen anyone actually provide reliable test results with antec at those temps os saying it drops to 360w is just plain guesswork.

All said and done, I agree pcp&c are the tops for a psu, no doubts there.

Click to expand...

I think that is the antec 550. Ive seen the insides of it in person many times. Here's proof. This pic is taken from a review of the antec 550 truepower. compare it to the one in link. Its the same with some VERY minor differences. I think that was some creative marketing by pcp&c when they said 5% regulation, or maybe the pcp&c is a channel well one (which makes the antec). One way or the other I'm confident that the differences between the pcp&c one and the antec one are very minor and that they perform identically.

http://pcpowerandcooling.com/pdf/Turbo-Cool_510_vs.pdf

ttt son of to the top

computerpro3 said:

The only way to accuratley measure your voltage is with a digital multimeter. [...] They are less than $20 at radio shack, home depot, basically any hardware/electronic store.

Click to expand...

I agree that the best way to measure voltage is with a digital multimeter.

You might want to encourage your readers to spend more than $20, though -- particularly if you're also encouraging them to worry about accuracy.

At radioshack.com, I see only one DMM that's under $20, their part number 22-810. According to the PDF at the site, this rig has +- 0.8% fullscale acuracy.

That's pretty crappy. (I'd be happy to have one in my toolbox for taking to the track, but the PDF also says it's for indoor use only!) If you're measuring any of the outputs on your PSU, you'll be in the 0-20 VDC range. That means you'll be reading +- 0.16 VDC.

computerpro3 said:

****IF YOUR PROBLEM IS DROPPING VOLTAGE LINES, IT OFTEN ISNT A PROBLEM AT ALL, THE SOFTWARE IS JUST INACCURATE*****

Click to expand...

I'm surprised to read that the softare is inaccurate. I thought this would be a hardware problem -- that the VDC doing the sensing was cheap, or reading at a point that was affected by trace resistance or load pulldown.

If the software is having problems, why don't we just rewrite it?

.B ekiM

I gather its often a BIOS inaccuracy, you see BIOS releases all the time that correct the calibartion of the onboard or on-die temperature sensor, the voltage is read via the same bus, the SMBus (System Management Bus) your BIOS, MBM, Sandra, AIDA32 and most any other monitoring software accesses that bus and the information, in MBM you can take a direct reading with a DMM and then give the value in MBM an offset to calibrate it.