Calling on yours and Kyle's support

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szero

Limp Gawd
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Hi, I'm sure many of you have become as enraged as I have with ATI's atrociously poor Linux support. They design their crappy proprietary drivers to only work flawlesly with one distribution. But many of us can't stand Redhat Linux. I've tried getting the drivers to work in Slackware 9, 9.1, 10.0 and other distributions to no avail.

On top of that, ATI updated their Linux drivers maybe every three months. This is absolutely unacceptable because they are always far behind the times. A part of Linux is upgraded all the time. For example, X 4.4.0 is catching on now. The latest ATI drivers only support 4.3.0. ATI needs a kick in the ass to start treating Linux as a respectable gaming platform.

However, no matter how many times I contact them myself, it's not going to make a difference. This is why I'm calling on you. I want to gather enough support from ATI + Linux users here and when the post generates enough support, I would love it if Kyle would be awesome enough to contact ATI representing [H]ardOCP. I think ATI would listen to that since it's one of the largest gamer/enthusiast sites out there.

Thanks guys!
 
Don't know if Kyle would do that, but I am willing to support. The only reason I don't go full Linux is because of gaming (UT2004, AA) under Linux. It is playable, but nothing compared to Windows. Let me know what is needed if this happens.
 
Kriegführung said:
Don't know if Kyle would do that, but I am willing to support. The only reason I don't go full Linux is because of gaming (UT2004, AA) under Linux. It is playable, but nothing compared to Windows. Let me know what is needed if this happens.
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Well when I used Redhat and the ATI drivers, Quake 3 ran better than it ever did under Windows ;). Thanks for your support!! :p
 
i'll support this... i've been hoping for some good ATI linux drivers for a LONG time now. hope it becomes a reality... or my next video card WILL be nvidia. the main reason i haven't gone full linux is compatability with a few programs i like and games. i mean, tetris can only hold my interest for so long:p

good luck.
 
I might be able to help here guys. I'd like to write an article about this. I'm the managing editor and a writer for Designtechnica and the owner is friends with Kyle.

I'll admit I'm a Linux gaming n00b. I've played TuxRacer :) and downloaded the UT2004 demo for my Mandrake system but never played it on that rig.

Anyway, if you're interested in me putting together an article, we can talk about it here (if the mods don't mind) or in PMs or email.
 
nomar said:
I might be able to help here guys. I'd like to write an article about this. I'm the managing editor and a writer for Designtechnica and the owner is friends with Kyle.

I'll admit I'm a Linux gaming n00b. I've played TuxRacer :) and downloaded the UT2004 demo for my Mandrake system but never played it on that rig.

Anyway, if you're interested in me putting together an article, we can talk about it here (if the mods don't mind) or in PMs or email.
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Great idea! I'll be glad to as soon as we can gather some more support and hear more ATI horror stories from this post. Thanks ;)
 
I'm in. I've got a radeon 8500le 128meg card running under gentoo. Kernel 2.6.3 and xfree86 4.3.0-r5. I can play ut2004, but winex does not play nicely with the radeon on some games(mainly vice city!!!!). I've tried everything I could and I could not get the tv out to do anything. Though that was a while back so I might try it again. Whenever I want to hook my computer up to the tv I just throw an old nvidia card in. That works perfectly. Come on ati. I am close to buying an nvidia card just so I don't have to deal with ati's crap.
 
OK so just to get a little background for me... What is the difference between ATI and Nvidia here? Does Nvidia update their Linux drivers as often as their Windows drivers? Does Nvidia release new cards with Linux support? Why are you/we singling out ATI?
 
Because ATI's drivers aren't near the quality of Nvidia's. Also, Nvidia's installer is not distro specific, and can be used in varying setups. ATI's are specfic to Red Hat from what I have seen. basicly put, ATI's linux drivers suck. Nvidias aren't perfect, but are about on the same level as there windows ones. They can get a little behind in support for hardware, but they don't fall too far behind.
 
nomar said:
OK so just to get a little background for me... What is the difference between ATI and Nvidia here? Does Nvidia update their Linux drivers as often as their Windows drivers? Does Nvidia release new cards with Linux support? Why are you/we singling out ATI?
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Well, like the one guy said. ATI's drivers are tailored to work with only one distribution and that is Red Hat Linux. Gentoo has used their awesome skills to somehow edit the proprietary drivers to work well on their distribution. However Gentoo is too hard for many Linux users to install (myself included...I tried 9 times).

They are not open source and so they force you to use Linux with a "tainted" kernel by inserting the module. If you do manage to get them working on a distribution other than Red Hat, the performance is inferior. I had them working on Slackware 8.1 and I got literally half the fps in Quake 3 that I got on Red Hat even though everything else about my Slackware box was far superior.

They do not support the hardware as completely as the Windows drivers do. Driver updates come out every two months at their fastest rate, often leaving new hardware without drivers for quite a lengthy amount of time. And as someone else said, they basically suck.
 
i have yet to get ati's linux drivers working on my 128mb 9100. and its sad too as i want to upgrade to a new video card that i know won't really be supported under linux :(
 
Hi guys,
Terry from ATI here. Kyle sent me a link to this forum and asked me if I could say something. Anyways here I am.

In a very recent interview on driverheaven.net with Dave Orton (ATI's CEO) the question of Linux came up.

Allan: What about Linux driver development? This market is expanding each year, are there any plans to increase driver updates or support for this market? How important to you feel the Linux market is to ATI?

Dave: Linux is about 3-6% of the current desktops in the world. As such, a while back, we introduced Linux support under the CATALYST umbrella. That means a steady and consistent release cycle. In fact, once we get going with the Linux postings (very shortly), we will be updating our Linux driver every two months. This shows that we are very committed and serious about supporting the Linux community.

At this point I see comments like "support sucks" or "lacking" but it is really hard to help without quantifiable and solid feature requests. What is it you guys want to see first? What do you want from ATI drivers in regards to Linux?

In fact if somebody on these forums wants to gather questions and submit it to me in an interview style pm I can get our Linux developers to answer things. One poster mentioned an article. If that is the case maybe he can consolidate some questions and send them my way? (or maybe we can convince Kyle to gather some questions for me)

Let me try and help you guys out.

Cheers

Terry Makedon
Senior Product Manager - Software
ATI Technologies
 
If you guys have INTELLIGENT questions for Terry, will you post them here so we can pull them together an interview format with Terry? That way we can get your questions answered in one motion. :)
 
Thanks for the input Terry. And thanks Kyle too!

I'll get some questions together and we'll set up a phone or e-mail interview. Please send me a PM with your email address.

Jeff Fila
Managing Editor
Designtechnica.com
 
Thank you for your input Terry. It is greatly appreciated.

Now that there is an ear to listen, let's get some constructive questions and comments together. It's been quite a while since I tried a Linux install on a machine with an ATI card, so my experiences are probably outdated.

Thanks again.
 
Why do ATI's Linux drivers only work properly with RedHat Linux?
 
Silent1 said:
tell you what i'd buy an ati card if their drivers were on par with nvidia's
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Please try and define the issues you had with the ATI drivers. Was it simply fps lag? Was it image quality? Could you be more specific please.
 
Silent1 said:
tell you what i'd buy an ati card if their drivers were on par with nvidia's
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As I said before, help me help you. Quantify your statement please. Posting like you did is not being helpful to this thread.
 
why did it take so long to implement D3TC? (AFAIK they have it now) ut2003 players were forced to get an nvidia card to play ut2003 in linux.
 
First off thank you Terry for responding. I want to say that I am pleased with my ATI card and would love to continue that trend. I just want to know why the performance under LInux as far as 3D goes is subpar to the windows counterpart? I cannot comment on Nvidia performance as I haven't had a Nvidia card under Linux, but from what others state is that performance is not near equal.

Also, I have known about the 2 months release schedule, which is nice that you are showing interest in the Linux community.

I am still using the 3.2.8's under Gentoo because anything above has worst performance. The 3.9's worst of all. Please work on performance first. I don't know much about what all intels making a driver, but I would love a workable 3D driver in Linux on the performance end.

Again thanks for you time Terry.
 
Hey, good to see you guys coming and talking to us.

One question I have off the top of my head.
I understand that Red Hat is basicly one of the big distributors in the GNU/Linux arena. The thing is there are alot of people that use others as well. Do you think you could look into using a more non-distro specific system for instalation. As I am sure you have gathered Nvidia already uses an installer, that compiles the needed hooks when you install it, if required. Being a avid user of Slackware I find this very helpfull, because if you don't know Slackware uses a package mangement system that is nothing like RPM, and also doesn't customize the default kernel except for security patchs mostly. Also it is often found that people compile there own, so we don't really use the pkgtool to keep track of that.
 
An interesting thing I've noted, but am not sure exactly how we'd word a question is:

When games like America's Army and UT2004 both come out with demos and full games with out of the box Linux (and Mac) support from day 1, what were they tested with. Has anyone here bought (or downloaded) one of these games for Linux and read the "recommended" system requirements? Is it just a difference of just general playability in Linux vs. high FPS and cinema-smooth gameplay in Windows?

BTW, if you guys aren't aware of the Linux Gamers FAQ, I ran across it a few weeks ago.
http://icculus.org/lgfaq/
 
I have personally played UT,UT200X, and Quake 3 on Linux. I found that UT2004 runs great, and my system specs are not really top of the line, but reasonable. AMD 2400+(2.1GHZ), 1 GB of DDR ram, and a Nvidia 5700 ultra.
 
Wow I didn't expect such a quick response from Kyle and even ATI. Thank you guys so much! I'll try and get a list of questions together as well and I hope the rest of you will do so as well.

And as a reminder people, don't flame in this thread, that wont get anybody what they want!

I'll get to work now ;).
 
Hopefully sometime in the next few months some ATi drivers can come out fully supporting linux. I'm looking to upgrading to an X800 XT or Pro (always been an ATi fan), from my Ti4400, and want to do some gaming on a stable platform. If ATi starts ironing out their issues, I'll probably switch solely to linux.

And Terry--as far as I can tell, the main problem with ATi linux drivers is they won't install, period, on a lot of systems. My friend bought a 9800 Pro (sapphire) which didn't work at all on his Gentoo install. As a result, he returned it and uses his Ti4200 now. I have some friends from another forum coming to give some input. Maybe we can make this as productive as it should be :)
 
nomar said:
I might be able to help here guys. I'd like to write an article about this. I'm the managing editor and a writer for Designtechnica and the owner is friends with Kyle.
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Since Kyle's actively involved in this thread now he'll handle the questions and answers.
 
Here's some questions that I put together. I came up with some myself and also used some of the other suggestions on this thread.


You say you are “very committed and serious about supporting the Linux community.” However, it seems to me you are only committed to the Red Hat community. Why is this?

Also related to the Red Hat issue...why the RPM format? This is only fully compatible with Red Hat, completely unsupported by many distros, and causes problems with the others.

Why not make the drivers open source so that other developers can take a crack at improving compatibility with other distributions and configurations, taking some of the pressure off your hands?

How about providing the information necessary for the DRI project to make their own drivers for your hardware?

A new driver every two months is not adequate considering how quickly the Linux world and even your own hardware world moves. For example, I don’t see support for the X800 at this moment in your Linux drivers. And, X 4.4.0 is available now, and your drivers don’t support that either. Why aren’t new drivers released when necessary?

I’ve heard complaints of defunct TV-outs and other parts of your hardware in Linux. Why don’t your Linux drivers support every feature of your hardware like the Windows version do?

Why don’t the Linux drivers perform up to par with the Windows drivers in so many situations (such as UT2K3)?
 
An opensource driver would be nice, but I realize that that is probably impossible for a lot of reasons. But I can dream. ;) My real issue with the current ATI linux driver release is the fact that it's mostly Redhat specific. I realize that Redhat controls most of the linux market, but I still think RPM should be an option, not a requirement (nvidia does it right in this case). My only other complaint is the slow rate at which drivers are being released. For future driver releases compatibility with the X.org releases should be implemented, as most distributions (including my favorite, Slackware) have switched to using them. Although I haven't had any stability issues with the drivers on my Redhat system (yet), I would stress that in my case, I am more than willing to trade a little 3d performance for stability. I need my linux environment to be rock solid, and graphics drivers can cause a lot of havoc (my old nvidia card+nvidia drivers did this all the time). So be careful. :D Thanks for the support, and thanks for your time. Oh yeah, and my radeon 9500 is the best computer related purchase I've ever made. :)
 
Just wanted to chime in and say that as an owner of a Radeon 9800 Pro in my desktop, a 7500 AIW in my HTPC and a Radeon Mobility 9700 in my laptop that I am very much looking forward to better ATI Linux drivers(sold my Radeon 8500 and got a Geforce 4 TI4200 because of the linux support).
.
I would be happy to install them from source. No RPM needed!
 
Archer75 said:
Just wanted to chime in and say that as an owner of a Radeon 9800 Pro in my desktop, a 7500 AIW in my HTPC and a Radeon Mobility 9700 in my laptop that I am very much looking forward to better ATI Linux drivers(sold my Radeon 8500 and got a Geforce 4 TI4200 because of the linux support).
.
I would be happy to install them from source. No RPM needed!
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i would be happy to install them from source too. i don't like RPMs to much since Gentoo doesn't natively support them (i know there are programs for them that allows Gentoo to convert them but its not the same).
 
runt said:
i would be happy to install them from source too. i don't like RPMs to much since Gentoo doesn't natively support them (i know there are programs for them that allows Gentoo to convert them but its not the same).
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emerge rpm?

I'd love ATi source drivers...GOOD drivers too. Sure, my Radeon 9600XT gets 2800 fps in Glxgears, the 9800 Pro only gets about 4400 fps or something. The Nvidia FX series can wipe the floor with these guys.

ATi has repeatedly said "We're trying to fix that problem" and most recently, said that the problem would be fixed "in 6 months." I'm waiting, but not holding my breath.
 
I have heard the same BillLeeLee. Other forums are stating the same problems. I know drivers just don't come out working like a charm from scratch. I think people just want to know updates, timelines, and issues being worked on.

This was a great start by Terry showing up and showing interest. I just hope ATI keeps us informed.
 
ATi, i would like (if possible) a source "port" of ur windows catalyst's. by port, i mean the same performance, iq, and stability as windows user enjoy. Source drivers would be nice as well, thanks alot Terry! (im not sure if u can actually do this, but it would be great)
 
Since I'm waiting on my X800 Pro to replace my GF3ti200, this thread is interesting to me. I'd like to see support for other linux distros, as I run either debian or slackware, and I HATE redhat.

I haven't run linux as a primary OS for quite a while because of games, but it would be nice to install and have for when Doom3 comes out(ID is pretty good with their linux ports in the past). With the market share that linux has, there is no good excuse not to have a good driver set for the platform. A source port would be great, but I expect you can't do that, so at least dump the rpm format and give some decent support for all distros of linux, not just turdhat.
 
sandmanx said:
Since I'm waiting on my X800 Pro to replace my GF3ti200, this thread is interesting to me. I'd like to see support for other linux distros, as I run either debian or slackware, and I HATE redhat.
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That's one hell of an upgrade man. I bet you'll love bein able to play games higher than 800x600 ;)
 
Since their Windows drivers have only gotten better in the past years, while nVidia's have historically been pretty solid, I'm not really that surprised that ATi is having trouble releasing good drivers for Linux.

I think it's possible to install the ATi drivers in Slackware - I saw a thread on Rage3D.com about it a while back. Luckily, I use Gentoo, where it's as simple as "emerge ati-drivers" and then "opengl-update ati"

As for Doom 3, there'll be a native linux version - id has always released Linux versions of their games, and it's easier because I believe that they never touch Direct X, only OpenGL, which Linux natively supports.

Nvidia 6800, I can't wait when I get my hands on you.
 
BillLeeLee said:
stuff that doesnt need to be here
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Please, why don't you try and help by giving some feed back then, and not just bash ATi. I do use Nvidia for my stuff, but would like to see ATi get better in this area. They need to get an idea of where they need to go, and get some hints on what needs to be done. Nvidia has been doing the same thing it just takes time, nvidia started doing it first so they are ahead of the game you could say.
 
For your information, I use a Radeon 9600XT and most of my computers have had ATi cards in them. Ati's most recent driver improved my GLX score by a few dozen frames per second, to about 2850 - 2900, but compared to nVIdia cards, this is nothing. I think, if I'm not mistaken, the FX series of cards could get 10000+ frames per second, whereas the then top of the line 9800 Pro got like 4000 fps.

You have to admit that ati's drivers for linux are still lacking, and that their past promises and vows to improve this situation have come up fruitless.

I'm not bashing, I'm giving ATi motivation. In this day and age, with such powerful vid cards, it doesn't matter that much in Windows because performance differences aren't huge, but there's a lot of difference in Linux. ATi's OpenGL performance has historically been pretty bad, and that just hurts in Linux.

I'd love, LOVE for ATi to get their act together and finally deliver on these annual promises.

<*psst, ATi> Kidnap Nvidia's team....kidnap Nvidia's team....kidnap nVidia's team....
 
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