What power suply for around 50??

S

SquiDDy

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
336
A sparkle or fortron "FSP" series psu is def the winner in the budget category. I'd dare say its higher quality than those you linked as well. There isn't much feedback on that Aspire psu so i'd personally stay away from it~the numbers look too good to be true.

The "FSP" psu's are underrated and put out more power than the numbers indicated so don't let the label scare you. A 350w or 400w model ought to work fine depending on the rig your are putting it in.
Fortron
Sparkle

If you'd like to keep it well under budget, then i'll recommend an Enlight/Thermaltake 420w unit. inexpensive, stable and reported to be very rugged.
Enlight flavor
Thermaltake flavor
 
so the aspire ones have little to no reviews??? i really like the fact that they are uv reactive though??

do you think they would provide ample power for my overclocked athlon mobile, and 4 drives?? along with like 10 fans??
 
Since i'm not sure who makes the aspire, nor have i heard of a track record, there is a chance that its a dodgy psu (in my book). I'd bet that it would work fine, but i wouldn't expect any miracles out of it.
 
Super Flower 450watt 140mm fan

not a typo,it uses a 140mm fan thats good for almost 50CFM being silent.

get past the stupid name. super-flower, enermax,and forton(i believe its them,either that or another F name) are all made in the same tawian factory and are of the same quality and OEM brand, just sold to different distributors.

offers great specs on the rails as far as amps, i have two of those on my lists of things to get as soon as my new debit card comes in the mail.
 
That might be good for those seeking silence but the +12v claim seems a little ambitious (30a?). Raw power-wise this looks like a better deal to me. Might make a silent freak's ears bleed but it doesn't bother me any ;)
 
<3 my 12volt CPU molex. my 12volt rail gets 75% of the load in my PC,so 12V is very important to me. i'll find out soon enough if their numbers match up very well.

my currently 380watt Antec true power is "ok",but its lack of any reasonable cooling in it drives me nuts. it holds all the heat and keeps my barton from 2.7ghz(at least in my mind :rolleyes: )

edit: do you use that super-flower personally or were you just linking it? how do you like it? i need a new PSU for my linux box as well as main rig so i'm in the market!
 
No i don't have one but i've read many a favorable thread on the higher watt models. I sometimes see complaints on the lower wattage models and they usually concern the +12v for various reasons (dipping too low etc).
 
CzarDestructo said:
super-flower, enermax,and forton(i believe its them,either that or another F name) are all made in the same tawian factory and are of the same quality and OEM brand, just sold to different distributors.
Click to expand...

must be a different "F" name. my 350w Sparkle and 530w Fortron don't look anything like the innards of an Enermax.
 
well, i think im gonna order this one

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-148-008&depa=0

due to its whopping 520 watts, and the fact that all the connectors are sleved in green uv reactive flexo stuff

if you read the reviews it says that it comes 100% sleved rather than just the one main motherboard connection in the picture

i see no reason why not to, there are no negative reviews i can find, and the price is right

anybody have someting to add about this powersuply?
 
SquiDDy said:
anybody have someting to add about this powersuply?
Click to expand...
EDIT > link working now, Im reviewing it ;)


My opinion
there are no specs, if you want a power supply that looks like that mod a good one
you would choose a good one based on the proceedure below
failing to buy a good one places everything its powering at risk
I wouldnt trust that PSU as far as I could throw it without at least rudimatary specs


Id recommend finding that extra $25 or so (whatever is needed)
arbitrarily determining your budget for the PSU isnt a good idea
you should purchase as good a PSU as possible for the load your going to place on it
(excluding the very top end, unless there are special goals)

start with >
(cut and paste)
_________________________________________________________________________
add up the rails with this calculator
http://takaman.jp/D/index.html?english
and compare it to the specs listed on the PSU
then you build in a safety margin of from 1\2 to 1\3rd
by deducting 1\2 to 1\3 the value of the PSU's rated amps and see if it still fits
it actually varies with the distribution ratios your likely to need more +12V than +3.3V or +5V
(CPUs now being powered by the +12V primarily)
possibly more if it a long term infrastructure investment and there is growth built in
of if the veracity of the manufacturer is in question (generics tend to lie like dogs)
most 250 or 300 watt PSUs will actually run most configs, but stability has become an increasing concern with the tighter tolerances onboard (FSB)

There is a decrease in total capacity with the rise in temperature , which reduces your amps, the rated amp values where taken at 25C
while your likely operating temperature will be 40C (especially if the PSU is in the top of the case exhausting the CPU HSF) and that is roughly a 30% decrease

That is offset by the additive nature of the calculator, employing all tha maximum draw figures for the assorted components, something that will never occur

However it gets even more complicated if you have alot of drives and fans, those are typically given a "run time" draw value in a calculator, there "spinup" draw can be 4 to 5 times as much and they greatly contribute to transient response overshoot and undershoot in some supplies at startup if there isnt enough +12V

The way you torture a power supply is to give it a fluctuating AC feed to deal with (from surge to brownout), at the same time you ask it to deal with a really dynamic internal load change (like spinning up alot of drives) while still keeping the rails stable enough for the onboard voltage regulation components of unknown quality :p

Failure anywhere along the chain from too big a spike at the source to too long or high an overshoot or undershoot to the mobo, with too much ripple or noise for the onboard regulator to deal with and RAM or other components can go bye bye, ideally the power supply will trip off and protect your components, the operable range it has is largely what the difference in one PSU to another is about. And when it comes to a comparision of a flyweight generic, the whole protection scheme of shutting down in time really comes into question. And of course how stable the rails can be maintained, how low the AC Ripple and noise.

so if you elect to get a supply in the near future you have to ask yourself
if its going to be a true infrastructure investment
in the past that was typically true, now it a little tougher with more power hungry devices
PCI Express, video cards ect.

They recently added 4 more pins to the main connector from 20 to 24, and an additional 4 pin +12V auxillary power connector, (ATX12V 2.0) and the spec keeps jumping the total amps on the +12V rail (ATX12V 2.0 & 2.2), actually there are now two +12V rails and Ive seen power supplies that have Quad rails

ATX12V v1.1 (ATX 2.03 standard) is a 20 pin PSU with a 4 pin +12V connector
but if your considering a long term investment the most important thing for you to determine is the number of pins the mobo connector has, and get a ATX12V v2.2 compliant power supply (unless you need an SSI Compliant EPS12V), and if you have a 20 pin connector see if it can be attached directly with a 24 pin PSU or if an adapter is needed (cap clearence)

as far as what your rails are reading in a monitoring program, for starters,
you cant observe that during startup with software or the BIOS

here is a Codgen300X1 under a dyanmic load
Codegen300X1.jpg

from > http://terasan.okiraku-pc.net/dengen/tester/index.html
and > http://terasan.okiraku-pc.net/dengen/tester2/index.html
(but hosted independently)
note the instabiliy at spinup (an extreme example, but thats common if you review the links)

compared to a PC Power & Cooling 450ATX
PC Power450atxs.jpg

same source

so Ideally youd like to use a Digital Multimeter to read your rails directly, watch the spinup,
and then if you can find a realtively stable voltage state use it to calibrate the voltage your reading on the DMM to the software (easy to do in MBM)

a bit more cut and paste
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Continuous Power vs. Peak Power at Spin-Up
12V power profile (current vs. time) of an IDE/ATA hard disk at startup. You can see that the peak power draw is over quadruple
the steady-state operating requirement. The graph appears "noisy"
due to frequent oscillations in current requirements
Click to expand...

Peak vs. Continuous Power
Despite this extra capacity, it is still a good idea to not load up your system to the very limit of your power supply's stated power capacity. It is also wise, if possible to employ features that delay the startup of some disk drive motors when the PC is first turned on, so the +12 voltage is not overloaded by everything drawing maximum current at the same time.
Click to expand...

"the majority of damaged RAM returned to memory manufacturers is destoryed by fluctuations in the voltage."
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1774&p=8

Winbond Launches New Bus Termination Regulator April 4th 2003

"Winbond Electronics Corporation, a leading supplier of semiconductor solutions, today launched the W83310S, a new DDR SDRAM bus termination regulator. The solution, new to Winbond's ACPI product family, is aimed at desktop PC and embedded system applications with DDR SDRAM requirements.

Computer systems architectures continue to evolve and are becoming more complex; CPU and memory speeds continue to increase ever more rapidly with every technology turn. More and more high current/low voltage power sources are required for PC systems. This is particularly true for high-speed components such as CPU, memory, and system chipsets. The performance of these components is highly dependent upon stable power. Therefore, motherboard designers require accurate, stable, low-ripple and robust power solutions for these components.

Many system designs use discrete components to implement bus termination functions. This approach creates several problems including poorer quality load regulation; higher voltage-ripple, increased usage of board space and inconsistent designs when different discrete components are used."


the transient response is the critical internal measure, unfortunately its not a metric that is commonly supplied with the PSU specs
(this seems to be slowly changing, as some manufacturers are supplying the transient response now)

Transient Response: As shown in the diagram here, a switching power supply uses a closed feedback loop to allow measurements of the output of the supply to control the way the supply is operating. This is analogous to how a thermometer and thermostat work together to control the temperature of a house. As mentioned in the description of load regulation above, the output voltage of a signal varies as the load on it varies. In particular, when the load is drastically changed--either increased or decreased a great deal, suddenly--the voltage level may shift drastically. Such a sudden change is called a transient. If one of the voltages is under heavy load from several demanding components and suddenly all but one stops drawing current, the voltage to the remaining current may temporarily surge. This is called a voltage overshoot.

Transient response measures how quickly and effectively the power supply can adjust to these sudden changes. Here's an actual transient response specification that we can work together to decode: "+5V,+12V outputs return to within 5% in less than 1ms for 20% load change." What this means is the following: "for either the +5 V or +12 V outputs, if the output is at a certain level (call it V1) and the current load on that signal either increases or decreases by up to 20%, the voltage on that output will return to a value within 5% of V1 within 1 millisecond". Obviously, faster responses closer to the original voltage are best."

______________________________________________________________________

weigh the tradeoffs, and invest what is needed
then invest again in a good mobo, from a reliable manufacturer, and in a power conditioning scheme

otherwise, you risk seeing it all go bye bye
 
lol, I'm sorry but most of that just went right over my head, lol

would you care to summarize all that for me in lay mens terms??
 
go to that link and use the calculator to figure out the power consumption of your components
if you cant find an exact match pick something close
(say you have a 7200rpm HDD but its not listed, pick another 7200rpm HDD)
then post the output at the bottom
(3.3max, 5max, 12max, 3.3+5max, 3.3+5+12max, total watts)
and any components that were not covered
(lights ect) I'll have you look up the draw on those if necessary

then I'll help you find some supplies that will fit your needs
and give you an opinion of what tradeoffs they have
right now it seems your selecting the supply based on how it looks
thats near the bottom of the list in importance, when it comes to reliable power
its not that hard to mod a supply,
so Id much rather see you with a good power supply that you invest some time into looking good,
than one which will put your system at risk

Aspire is a very opaque company
but I'll see if I can find out what they are rebranding, they arent "making" those power supplies, and considering the eyecandy they are adding to it, its likley a very cheap $10 > $20 PSU before they do that considering the pricepoint ;)
 
well if you look at the normal price for that powersupply, its from 80-100 or so new...

any ways, i need about 280 watts of power, and i also do a fair bit of overclocking, nothing extreme but i do my share
 
total watts is just this side of meaningless
I need the Amps per rail
the +3.3V, +5V, and +12V rails specifically
also posting your components wouldnt be a bad idea

and they arent selling the PSU at a loss
the fact its available elsewhere for that much doesnt really mean alot
and if they are lowering the price on them as a pricing trend that even worse
 
its a sale at new egg if that matters to you at all

anyways, i have

asus A7N8X
mobile 2400 at 2.3 with new cooler using similar to factory heat sink fan
2x pc2100 256 ddr samsung
saphire 9600xt overclocked to 680 mem 520 core
audigy 2 platinum
usb controler
120 western digital 7200 rpm hdd
dvd 8x drive
fast burner, dont remember specifics
explorer mouse
keyboard
and 8 fans

all running off of a 500 watt x case psu

i can type up the specifics on it if you like

thats everything i have running off of the psu right now
 
i decided to go for the name brand and ordered this one

i figured it was a good deal, and that it would provide more than enough stable juice for my rig

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-153-009&depa=0

i also ordered two new fans for it to solder in, and a sleeving kit, so ill get my eye candy :D

if you don think it is up to par i can cancel the order and get a different one, but i had a good chance to order one tonight when my dad had some free time [he has the newegg account and the credit card]
 
good luck with just 18A on +12V rail, dont let it get too hot
 
I'm not sure, but I think that Aspire is made by Topower -- it should be possible to find the real manufacturer by entering the UL (RU) or CSA numbers at www.ul.com or www.csa.ca. If you want a windowed PSU, Aspire may be the best choice because AFAIK they're the only ones that are UL or CSA approved and have fire-resistant windows. Any PSU that's been modded will lose its original safety approvals, and new approvals cost something like a minimum of $30,000 apiece.

Those graphs showing the voltage fluctuations of the Codegen and PC Power & Cooling PSUs have scales that range from 12.175V to 12.45V, a difference of just 2.26%, which is trivial for any fluctuationl. Also I've found that mobo monitoring hardware will show fluctuations even when a meter or scope will not -- I've seen it display changes of a few tenths of a volt while my meter showed that the voltages fluctuated no more than a few hundredths of a volt, even on its bar graph (reacts much faster than the digits display) or when I had the meter monitor the output and record the highest and lowest values over several minutes.

I wouldn't trust anything AnandTech says about PSUs. Remember that joke of a review that they did several months ago, where they didn't do full-load testing and used an oscilloscope improperly? Considering that AnandTech is one of the wealthier review sites, that was inexcusable. The review received several negative comments, and the reviewer admitted to not really knowing what to do.

Those Fortron-Source PSUs with model numbers that start with "ATX" are probably as good as the "FSP" series. I have a Sparkle ATX-300GT, and compared to my FSP-350BT (BU?), it has the same heatsink on the low voltage side, the high voltage side heatsink is smaller to make room for a passive power factor correction coil, the big transistors and diodes, at least those with legible markings, seem to have the same capacity ratings, and the inverter transformers are exactly the same. The high voltage filter capacitors are larger in the 350W, as would be expected, but for some reason the 350W didn't have a fan speed controller, despite its box being labelled "Noise Killer" (that term has to be on the PSU itself for there to be a fan controller).

I wouldn't mind a Hi-Q, PowerQ, or Powertech brand product from Fortron-Source, even though the first two have sleeve bearing fans. BTW, be careful about anything named Powertech because it's usually a Powertek with the name misspelled.
 
SquiDDy said:
i decided to go for the name brand and ordered this one

i figured it was a good deal, and that it would provide more than enough stable juice for my rig

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-153-009&depa=0

i also ordered two new fans for it to solder in, and a sleeving kit, so ill get my eye candy :D

if you don think it is up to par i can cancel the order and get a different one, but i had a good chance to order one tonight when my dad had some free time [he has the newegg account and the credit card]
Click to expand...
I forgot to mention something about the higher wattage >480w thermaltakes... they don't seem to have the greatest track record. The lower watt units seem to be very reliable though. You should have listened to ice czar and gotten something like this instead. That sucker dishes out a lot more power than the 480w Thermaltake.
 
larrymoencurly said:
Those graphs showing the voltage fluctuations of the Codegen and PC Power & Cooling PSUs have scales that range from 12.175V to 12.45V, a difference of just 2.26%, which is trivial for any fluctuationl. Also I've found that mobo monitoring hardware will show fluctuations even when a meter or scope will not -- I've seen it display changes of a few tenths of a volt while my meter showed that the voltages fluctuated no more than a few hundredths of a volt, even on its bar graph (reacts much faster than the digits display) or when I had the meter monitor the output and record the highest and lowest values over several minutes.

I wouldn't trust anything AnandTech says about PSUs. Remember that joke of a review that they did several months ago, where they didn't do full-load testing and used an oscilloscope improperly? Considering that AnandTech is one of the wealthier review sites, that was inexcusable. The review received several negative comments, and the reviewer admitted to not really knowing what to do.
Click to expand...


Hey thanks for the heads up on the UL listings :D

those are logged Digital Multimeter readouts off a Sanwa PC510 (0.08% accuracy) via RS232C or USB port to PC Link the logging software you see there

the test system is a Tyan Tiger 133 (S1834D).w\ Dual P3 650s overclocked to 865MHz (I think :p )
Dual sticks of 128MB PC133, a Matrox G400SH, Xwave 6000 sound card, NIC and a single HDD, FDD and CDROM
measured from startup, booting into Windows 2000, and Running 3DMark 2000 to conclusion, measured in 5 second intervals, which is definately less than ideal, but the best he could manage

not exactly a power hungry system that would be "pushing" those supplies too hard
I use those as illustrative of the instability that spinning up drives can produce
those supplies are hardly at the edge of their capacity, nor are they dealing with less than ideal AC power
Ripple & Noise, not being specifically addressed.
and while they arent "out of spec" they arent being taxed either

your suggesting the bad power isnt the leading cause of RAM failure?
(after installation ESD)
 
Hey Ice Czar, thx for the awesome calculator and all the information on PS's! I had no idea that there was so much details when purchasing a power supply and I believe you have just saved me from tons of hassles later on down the road :D I'm looking to build a new PC soon, and after inputting my specs into the calculator, and the notable power requirements are thus:

5V Line Max - 15.4A
12VLine Max - 16.5A
3.3V + 5V combined - 86.2 W max

I was looking at some of the cheaper modles (Enlight/Thermaltake 420W) and it seems that their 12V lines are rated at 18A... will that be enough or is that cutting it a little close? Also, like you said, the transient response of certain components cause a spike in their power requirements. Does the calculator take this into account? I'm going to have 2 7200RPM SATA HDs so i'm kinda worried about that.
What PS would you recommend? My budget is ~$50.
Thanks again!

Oh one more thing: In the calculator, I put 9700Pro for a vid card althought I'm leaning towards a 6800GT. Will this affect my power requirements much?
 
well, that power supply will run your computer

and provided it has stable AC power to work with would likely do it without any issue,
(that was a hint invest in power conditioning )
the calculator just examines the current distribution required and as mentioned,
its the theoretical maximum, something that is unlikely to ever be approached offset by the temperature at which they measured that current,
being substantially lower than your likely operating temperature

It doesnt address the quality of the power (AC Ripple and noise) or how well it can deal with a fluctuating input AC load > Line Regulation
or a changing draw from the components > Transient Response
its not exactly a "tight" supply, having just the basic compliance with the ATX12V spec for noise and regulation

But you have sucessfully avoided the first pitfall of thinking watts mean much these days :p
a quailty 300watt out performing a generic 400 watt or even a 500 watt in many cases

That is a realitively good supply, and the veracity of the specs within the "normal" range,
they where likely measured with an actually useful threshold for unacceptable sag (brownout)
on the various rails (the point where they would drop below or shoot above the specification of the 3.3, 5, or 12 volt rails which is 5%
other generic supplies might just employ when a fuse blew :p

Im currently researching the draw of several different components including the 6800 Ultra
the tough part is they dont seem to publish that data but I do have this article from Spodes Abode
http://www.spodesabode.com/content/article/6800upower
It is almost impossible to measure how much current the cards draw through the AGP slot, but from the AGP specifications we know the absolute maximum the slot can supply is a total of 46 Watts, at various voltages. This means the overall power consumption of the GeForce 6800 Ultra must be somewhere between 77.5 Watts, and 123.5 Watts.
Click to expand...
and that the auxillary power connector was drawing an additional 5 Amps (peak) on the +12V rail, and 3.5A (peak) on the +5V rail,
measured directly by the multimeter

the problem becomes that part of that figure is also included in your original calculation
so how much more to add to either rail is problematic, but in comparision a 9800 XT was drawing only 2.2Amps (+12V) and 3.5A (+5V) peak through the auxillary connector
so adding 3 to 5A to your +12V total for an Ultra, but Nvidia claims the GT are considerably lower powered.

ATX12V Version 1.3 Power Supply Design Guide underwhich this supply was built predates the current heavy employment of the +12V rails
and the upgrade path of any v1.3 supply is extremely short, the next generation (and some of the current gen) of mobos having 24 pin main power connectors
and real need of much fatter +12V rails, The PSUs in the v2.1 spec typically jumping from the 18A range up to 30>38A (broad generalization for a "typical" gaming rig sized PSU which is quite large in Watts) and split over two or more dedicated +12V rails, largely because of the additional requirements of PCI Express, and the change from using onboard +5V Voltage Regulation Modual(s) (that step down and power the CPU) to +12V powered VRMs

Id say that if the budget is firm, and your not getting the 6800GT, your safe, possibly even with the GT
provided the input power is stable, but that as little as $15 could make a big difference in peace of mind and likely let you run the GT with peace of mind as well, however your still investing in a very limited "patch" power solution that isnt going to see you into the next rig.

Good Luck ;) If youd like to reconsider the budget or a particular supply Id be happy to help
I do notice its on sale right now for $36, so its certainly an affordable patch, regarding the GT, I cant really say, sorry
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-153-006&depa=0
.

as a last note, if your where able to say force feed your computer AC air
or otherwise maintain a low ambient temperature, the capacity of the supply will be substantially better, and would likely be able to handle that "theoretical" extra load without issue, of course the opposite is true as well, if the room temperature is 100F you could easily develop power problems if loaded to close too your limit

In my rackmount I dont have the power supply exhausting the heat produced from the CPU HSF, a trend which accelerated with the AMD builders guide's for the Athlons (adding the second fan) solving that exhaust issue a different way and maintaining a cool air input for your PSU could be worth as much as a 10% to 20% increase in overall capacity, lowering it to the actual 25C it was tested at could be worth 30% increase over a typical 40C PSU enclosure ambient ;)

("typical" meaning exhausting a HSF directly below it in say a 70>80F room ambient with a pretty powerful and hot CPU, it could vary quite a bit)
 
SquiDDy said:
i decided to go for the name brand and ordered this one

i figured it was a good deal, and that it would provide more than enough stable juice for my rig

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-153-009&depa=0

i also ordered two new fans for it to solder in, and a sleeving kit, so ill get my eye candy :D

if you don think it is up to par i can cancel the order and get a different one, but i had a good chance to order one tonight when my dad had some free time [he has the newegg account and the credit card]
Click to expand...


It's a good power supply, i have one, silent, Super cool running big time components, just got a a64,1gig, 2 120's, 2 scsi's, audigy2, 2 dvd-rws, etc. I got the same one as you. Great psu. Solid as a rock, yes the 18amps on a 12volt kinda sucks.
 
Ice Czar:
hmm... I'm thinking that spending some extra money on a power supply would very much worth the peace of mind it'll bring me. But money will be tight, especially if i go with the 6800GT... Are there any decent v2.1 spec PSU's out there around $60? Or maybe even cheaper?? If i go with a lower wattage unit, as long as it can keep up with the +12V rail requirements. Like you said, the PSU will still be a patch, but that ok with me because i don't plan on adding any other components to my PC or seeing this PSU through to my next rig.
Thanks again! :)
 
if you enjoy your hardware dont buy an Aspire PSU...

ya those comments about the psu that just completely exploded on me... that was an Aspire PSU... a 350 that came with an aspire case...

dunno about those clear ones, but i would personally stay away
 
SquiDDy (the thread starter) went ahead and bought a Thermaltake
right now we are trying to get IsAnybodyHome squared away ;)

and Im still working on that answer :p
 
still working on this so... expect editing think that enermax is OK
will doublecheck

IsAnybodyHome said:
Ice Czar:
hmm... I'm thinking that spending some extra money on a power supply would very much worth the peace of mind it'll bring me. But money will be tight, especially if i go with the 6800GT... Are there any decent v2.1 spec PSU's out there around $60? Or maybe even cheaper?? If i go with a lower wattage unit, as long as it can keep up with the +12V rail requirements. Like you said, the PSU will still be a patch, but that ok with me because i don't plan on adding any other components to my PC or seeing this PSU through to my next rig.
Thanks again! :)
Click to expand...


well, thats a little tough, for starters the "public" isnt really aware of the ATX12V v1.2 vs v1.3 vs v2.0 issue, and thus the supplies arent typically listed like that yet by retailers, they dont want to deal with people mistakenly buying a PSU that they cant attach to the mobo without a converter (if there isnt clearence on the connector) or why there are an extra 4 pins on the main connector

the mobo manufacturers are largely to blame since they didnt adopt those 24 pin connectors when the spec changed and have been playing a shell game since the spec came out cause they dont want to "force" their customer to buy a new PSU and have been dancing around the issue, but thats coming to an end soon. In the meantime this is a period of great confusion

so a recap
v1.2 your basic single +12V rail PSU with a 20 pin main connector
v1.3 a dual rail +12V w\ 20 pin main plus a 2x2 four pin +12V auxillary
v2.0 a dual rail +12V w\ 24 pin main plus a 2x2 four pin +12V auxillary

with each of those, more amps where added to the +12V rails so the supplies that are the fatest are the latest v2.0, only some of those are sold in triple wiring harness config as 20 pin + 4 and 24 pin + 4 and EPS12V 24 pin + 8

the easiest way to search for such an animal is to look for an EPS12V supply, those are a slightly different spec Intels Server System Infrastructure and the connectors are compatible for the v2.0 mains formfactor.org having adopted the mains from there, but the auxillary connector (Intel 2x2 +12V) is transformed in the EPS12V spec to an 2x4 eight pin, and again it can be used directly if there is clearence, but I know of no converters from 8 pin to 4 pin, as of yet (though I think I might start a company :p )
now most ATX12V v2.0 supplies are also EPS12V compliant and they just have different wiring harnesses, but when they are listed as ATX12V supplies, they often dont bother to list the +12V individual rails :rolleyes: but would in their EPS12V wiring harness trim

such an animal is typically $100 or so, but there is one at newegg for $65
AMS MERCURY EPS 12V 460W UL
with dual +12V rails > +12V1@18A, +12V2@15A

now just to make it more confusing there are those dual rails, one of the reasons they where implemented was to isolate the volatage instabilities induced by other components turning on and off (Transient Load) so in the EPS12V spec its listed like this

EPS12V ....6.1.1 12V Power Rail Configuration

There are two types of 12V rail configurations for systems: 'Common plane' and "Split plane' processor power delivery. The 'common plane' system has both processors powered from a single 12V rail (+12V1) from the power supply. The 'split plane' system has both processors powered by seperate 12V rails (+12V1 and +12V2) one dedicated to each processor. The system in both cases, has an additional 12V rail to power the rest of the baseboard +12V loads and dc/dc converters. +12V1, +12V2 and +12V3 should not be connected together on the baseboard to ensure that 240VA protection circuits in the power supply operate properly

Table 6: 12V Rail Summary
........................................................................................................................................................................................
Common Plane System........................................................Split Plane System
+12V1........Processors.........................................................+12V1........Processor 1
+12V2........Baseboard components other than processors.......+12V2........Processor 2
+12V3........Drives and peripherals..........................................+12V3........Baseboards and components other than processors
...........................................................................................+12V4........Drives and peripherals
Click to expand...

the quad rail interation obviously being for a dual CPU board and you wouldnt want it for a single CPU

but what is strange is that though some supplies state they are dual rail they appear to not really be like the middle supply in the Enermax Noisetaker Line here
Enermax EG425-VE SFMA (ATX12V v1.3)
+12V1..... 0.5A / 15A (MIN/MAX)
+12V2.......0.5A / 14A

Enermax EG475P-VE SFMA (ATX12V v1.3)
+12V1..... 1.5A / 33A
+12V2.......0A / 1A

Enermax EG701P-VE SFMA (ATX12V v1.3)
+12V1..... 0.5A / 18A
+12V2......0.5A / 17A

more clarification and qualification in the works ;)
 
Ice Czar said:
think that enermax is OK
Click to expand...
So in general avoid Enermax? I've always been kinda unsure about them but leaning towards them being a pretty good manufacturer.
 
No no, Enermax is a good company
but it appears as if for some reason part of their line has all of the amps on one of the +12V dual rails, and they arent the only one, its just real tough right now to determine what amps are on what rails (as the 12v dual rails often arent broken out) and exactly what wiring harness youll get, unless specifically stated otherwise your likely to get a 20 pin main and 4 pin aux, but if you want a longer use youll either need a 24 pin main and 4 pin aux with a converter to the 20 pin on the board

or

get a 20 pin and then use a converter to 24 pin

but the real kicker are those 12V rails you want to have them available so that they dont put undo stress (transient load) on sensitive components, thus your drives are isolated from the power supplied to the mobo's VRMs (Voltage Regulation Modual)

from the Corruption 101 FAQ
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Power Issues
There are three basic areas of power problems
1.Source Power Brown outs, blackouts, spikes\surges ect.
see > Power Conditioning and DIY UPS @ Dans Data, for the basics
In this category I would also place power issues due to pilot error, hard restarts and shorts, avoid both. Shutdown properly and pay attention when mounting your motherboard and routing power cables.

2. Under Power: Basically too many components for the power supply,
dont be decieved by wattage figures, its the amount of amps per rail that is really important.
See > Choosing the right Power Supply &
takaman's Power Supply Calculator rev0.61x
to determine the amps you need per rail

3. Voltage Stability Pretty much the all the following
[H]ardcore PSU info (Charts)
http://terasan.okiraku-pc.net/dengen/tester/index.html
http://terasan.okiraku-pc.net/dengen/tester2/index.html
(note the PC Power & Cooling, Antec, Ablecom, and Zippy)

In Japanese :p
But the graphs speak volumes
and the PSU are identified in English]



Continuous Power vs. Peak Power at Spin-Up
12V power profile (current vs. time) of an IDE/ATA hard disk at startup. You can see that the peak power draw is over quadruple
the steady-state operating requirement. The graph appears "noisy"
due to frequent oscillations in current requirements
Click to expand...

Peak vs. Continuous Power
Despite this extra capacity, it is still a good idea to not load up your system to the very limit of your power supply's stated power capacity. It is also wise, if possible to employ features that delay the startup of some disk drive motors when the PC is first turned on, so the +12 voltage is not overloaded by everything drawing maximum current at the same time.
Click to expand...
refering to the links above again
http://terasan.okiraku-pc.net/dengen/tester/index.html

note the consistent voltage instability at startup and shortly thereafter in those graphs

Winbond Launches New Bus Termination Regulator April 4th 2003

"Winbond Electronics Corporation, a leading supplier of semiconductor solutions, today launched the W83310S, a new DDR SDRAM bus termination regulator. The solution, new to Winbond's ACPI product family, is aimed at desktop PC and embedded system applications with DDR SDRAM requirements.

Computer systems architectures continue to evolve and are becoming more complex; CPU and memory speeds continue to increase ever more rapidly with every technology turn. More and more high current/low voltage power sources are required for PC systems. This is particularly true for high-speed components such as CPU, memory, and system chipsets. The performance of these components is highly dependent upon stable power. Therefore, motherboard designers require accurate, stable, low-ripple and robust power solutions for these components.

Many system designs use discrete components to implement bus termination functions. This approach creates several problems including poorer quality load regulation; higher voltage-ripple, increased usage of board space and inconsistent designs when different discrete components are used."

and just to reinterate this point one more time
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1774&p=8
"the majority of damaged RAM returned to memory manufacturers is destoryed by fluctuations in the voltage."

the transient response is the critical measure, unfortunately its not a metric that is commonly supplied with the PSU specs
(this seems to be slowly changing, as some manufacturers are supplying the transient response now)

Transient Response: As shown in the diagram here, a switching power supply uses a closed feedback loop to allow measurements of the output of the supply to control the way the supply is operating. This is analogous to how a thermometer and thermostat work together to control the temperature of a house. As mentioned in the description of load regulation above, the output voltage of a signal varies as the load on it varies. In particular, when the load is drastically changed--either increased or decreased a great deal, suddenly--the voltage level may shift drastically. Such a sudden change is called a transient. If one of the voltages is under heavy load from several demanding components and suddenly all but one stops drawing current, the voltage to the remaining current may temporarily surge. This is called a voltage overshoot.

Transient response measures how quickly and effectively the power supply can adjust to these sudden changes. Here's an actual transient response specification that we can work together to decode: "+5V,+12V outputs return to within 5% in less than 1ms for 20% load change." What this means is the following: "for either the +5 V or +12 V outputs, if the output is at a certain level (call it V1) and the current load on that signal either increases or decreases by up to 20%, the voltage on that output will return to a value within 5% of V1 within 1 millisecond". Obviously, faster responses closer to the original voltage are best."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so the later spec supplies have isolated rails for the 12V power (all the way up to quad)
what your starting to see now is strange VRM schemes like Gigabytes DPS Dual Power System which is a 6 phase converter on the mobo, and OCZ is releasing Power Clean Technology, all this in a effort to get cleaner more stable power to very sensitive components, those are just a few examples, the VRM moduals on my mobo run hotter than my chipsets :p

I think alot of this has to do with the older power supplies, you dont really see the bending over backwards on server boards where the EPS12V spec calls out triple rails and quad rails, again the obvious reason is to isolate the transient loads

if there isnt an overshoot (to much ) or undershoot (too little) voltage on a given rail the Voltage regulation modual onboard is better able to deal with it, step it down and feed it to the CPU and RAM so isolating the rails is a really helpful thing
 
ChingChang said:
Enermax shouldn't have many problems, correct? If so how about this PSU?
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=17-103-439&DEPA=1
26A on the 12v rail
Click to expand...

soooo....

I wouldnt recommend that particular PSU EG365P-VE +12V @ 26A
its supposd to have a dual rail according to the spec
yet its not broken out, while the Noisetaker Series is broken out and with the exception of the 475 watt version has two seperate rails that are actually documented and the power fairly equally divided
http://www.maxpoint.com/products/pow_supp/spec_pg/425sfma/details.htm

so in that general Watt range Id get the Enermax EG375P-VE +12V1 @ 14A & +12V2 @ 13A
 
Hey thanks for all the help ChingChang and Ice Czar! Man Ice Czar you're awesome :D I've learnt sooo much from your posts.
Yeah I've decided to go with the EG375P-VE It seems to be very quiet too, judging from the customer reviews. $68, but whatever.
Thank again :)

And now... time for me to do some research on cases...
 
IsAnybodyHome said:
And now... time for me to do some research on cases...
Click to expand...

not yet young man, get back here :p

Id rather run a computer out of a cardboard box with a good power supply chain than in the fanciest case without one, the PSU is just a link in the chain ;)
Power Conditioning 101

and see what you can do to increase the efficiency of your thermal solution, keeping things cool from the power supply to the CPU is always money well invested
ESD & Electromigration Rant

Each 10°C (18°F) temperature rise reduces component life by 50%.
Conversely, each 10°C (18°F) temperature reduction increases component life by 100%.
the Arrhenius Equation (a rule of thumb)


Good Luck :D
 
Ice Czar:
Hm...power conditioning...well, a several hundred dollar line conditioner or UPS is definitely more than what I can afford to spend at the moment... I'll just have to make do with my MOV Belkin Surgemaster II. Hopefully the scenario described in the article of several minor surges leaving the fuse intact but destroying the MOV won't happen to me on this surge protector...

Ahh the Arrhenius equation... should've paid more attention in chem...never would've thought that it affects the lifespan of computer components as well :) As for my thermal solution, I'm probably going to go with the retail AMD64 HSF (I've had bad experiences with 3rd party HSF crushing a corner off of my cpu) I don't plan on using this computer for more than 3 years, so a little heat shouldn't be too much of a problem. Definitely not as serious about my hardware as you (forgive my ignorance, but what is your workstation for?) I'm hoping that a case with good airflow will do the trick. Websites seem to recommend the Lian Li PC-61 but $105 :eek: !!!! The case AND the PSU for my last comp cost only ~$70 :p. I've looked around in the case modding forum but the ppl there with Lian Li's seem a bit...biased...

I have to say again, that I really appreciate your help and efforts, and you've saved me from weeks, perhaps months without a computer waiting for my RMA's to arrive in the mail...(bad experiences...). Plus, it is a very educational and enlightening experience :p (I had NO idea that ESD could be a silent killer...)
 
I used the PSU calculator and got this (I did a high end power and a low end power requirments for my computer ex21 to 17)
3.3V=2.4
5V=21 to 17
12v=15.3 to 14.7
3.3+5+12v=300 to 270
note I used the ATI 9700 but Im actually buying the 9800 Pro
I am buying a new PSU because Im buying a new graphics card (a Nvidia Fx 5200 to a ATI 9800 pro.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-153-006&depa=0 seems the best(check reviews, very good)
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=11-145-047&DEPA=1 a case with a psu. The psu seems good but it kinda seems too good to be true

http://www.buypcdirect.com/product.asp?pf_id=psu-as-p600w seems like a knock off company

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-163-001&depa=1
 
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