Recommended upgrade *guide*

CleanSlate

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 28, 2003
Messages
5,258
Well hello everyone, my thanks out to Steve for putting my humble little guide up on hardocp.com among many links (for three months in a row :D ). The tension of the new Geforce 7800Ultra (which is speculated to soon be here with a whopping 32pipes! You can only hope... But I doubt it :p, if anything it'd probably be another 24 pipe card)

The purpose of this thread is to try to give an objective view of what card to buy for the best all-around performance for each of the price ranges that exist as of 7/05. If you have suggestions please leave them, they are all welcome.

Some sections might seem like "price lists" but that's decieving in itself because some cards have different features that need to be listed even if they "perform" similar to another card in the category.

I only use newegg.com because it's a very good e-tailer and doesn't price gouge (anywhere as much) as the other e-tailers do.

For reference, there are no performance differences between the PCI-E and AGP cards right now, no cards have come out yet that can even fully utilize AGP4x bandwidth (b/w) let alone 8x b/w where as PCI-E is double the b/w of agp8x. Here goes the shpeel!



If you don't EVER game and KNOW you won't ever game (!!!!) get the cheapest possible that supports DX8 or 8.1 and the older DX7/7.1 cards aren't too bad either

$60 or less section

It can't play Doom3 nor will it play HL2 but...

This is a very difficult section because the cards are all... well junk for gaming. However, there is one with dx8.1 support which could probably play half-life 1 mods and older games well enough at the clock speeds/bit rate given:

9250 128-bit agp model which comes in at $40 shipped, $10 mail-in rebate.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814166002

There is no PCI-E card that I've seen for $60 or less worth anything to game with but there are now 6200's with 'turbo cache' If you are wondering what that is, www.hardocp.com has a review on it, it's NOT for gaming so I will omit this section.

$112.50 or less section

AGP CARDS

ATi 9600 pro agp $77 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102408

The 9600 pro is a great card and I suggest it over the non-pro if you are a gamer. The 6200 and 9600pro are very close in performance in almost all games reviewed by [H]ardocp.com.

Nvidia 6200 $76shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814133138
Good card if you are looking to mod/OC, especially just OC... it OCs like a mad man according to the [H]-trial.

PCI-E CARDS

X600XT $95.50shipped
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814127167

6200 $88shipped
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814140046

I suggest the X600XT but the 6200 with it's great OCing capabilities and the modding might be something you would want to look into :).

PCI CARDS

I recommend the 5200 but the 9250 is a good card too, the only reason I put the 9250 up is because it's best for those who have agp cards as well as pci cards in thier systems to keep with the same manufacturers with both agp and pci cards. Why? Well, the short answer is for stability and the long answer is driver conflicts cause system instability.

The 9250's price has dropped quite a bit and it's now a contender for the 5200 in a system with only pci cards.

Nvidia 5200 PCI $94.50 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814145087

ATI Radeon 9250 PCI $82shipped
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814131411

$210 or less section

AGP CARDS

6600gt $156shipped and a $20 mail in rebate

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814135160

6800nu $200.50shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814125142

Modding/OCing? 6800nu. I suggest the 6800nu if you can afford it but often people can't or wont spring for it so the 600gt is there... if you really must.

PCI-E CARDS

X700pro $129.50shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814123146

This is about equal to a 9600XT which is about equal to a 9800se type 2 (256 bit ram), it's a good card and can play HL2 decently.

6600gt $165shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814125156

X800 128 meg GDDR3 $197.50 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814127176

My personal favorite over the 6600GT is the X800 which spanks it in most benchies. The X700 pro is a good card for the price and is between the 6600 and 6600gt. If you find yourself buying the X700pro... just get the 6600 and OC if you are into that sort of thing.
 
$350 or less section

Ahh, the performance cards that we all know and love.

AGP CARDS

6800 GT AGP w/ 256megs GDDR3 $289 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814150102

or depending on what you like.. two diff mfg's, same price, different coolers.

6800 GT AGP w/ 256megs GDDR3 $289 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814122195

PCI-E CARDS

X800pro w/ 256 megs GDDR3 VIVO $253 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102465

X800 XL w/ 256 megs GDDR3 $289 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814142050

Or if you're into stock custom cooling for for that X800XL for only an extra $4...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814161132

$600 or less section

Here are you uber cards that we all drool at and wish we could have, though, tell you the truth I wish I could just have an X800XL, I'd be very happy.

AGP CARDS

X800XT AIW $388 shipped, $50 MIR

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102492

X800XTPE VIVO $433shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814161128

X850XT VIVO $399 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102555

6800 ULTRA $449 shipped, $30 MIR

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130196


PCI-E CARDS

X850XT $440 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102483

X850XTPE$474shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814142046

6800Ultra PCI-E w/ 256 megs GDDR3 $474 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814127161

I suggest the X850XTPE because it just barely beats out the Ultra but costs the same, for now.

7800GTX BFG OC @ 460/1300 $624 shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814143036

7800GTX XFX OC @ 450/1250$604 shipped This is out of stock now but if you get in line on newegg you might get a free XFX gamepad with it.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814150100

Did someone say "I want the best"? The 7800GTX is the best of the best.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope you all enjoy your new hardware and I hope I helped people out by spending my time sifting through newegg so YOU don't have to :). I update this at least monthly so it won't ever go out of date.

You can donate to the poor student for his monthly troubles if you like, my paypal is adam_underscore (at) yahoo (dot) com

Thanks again Steve.

~Adam
 
I just don't see it as an upgrade guide, it's more of a pricelist, in my opinion.

And regarding my sticky comment, I've just seen far too many people fishing for stickies to be made of their posts. If you're out to help, all the power to you, I just see it all the time and it puts me on the edge in that area of forum going.
 
See, I can refer all the people asking me about things to this (well prepared) thread, tailor made for noobs who know nothing about what they are doing that seem to stalk my AIM.

Sticky would be fine, I don't care honestly but this thread will be finished either way. I've spent about 2 or 3 hours on it up until now... And you crapping on it makes me rather angry.

~Adam
 
Hey thanks for the post. Don't listen to these flamers. You've helped alot of people out I'm sure. Thanks for the info.


MS
 
Not sure how well it will work as an upgrade 'guide'. It does offer some nice alternatives in the low budget section however. I think it would be more helpful to show advantages/disadvantages of the DirectX 9 series of cards across all price points. Most people I see asking for upgrade advice are moving from DirectX 7 & 8 hardware such as the GF4 MX series.
 
That's what I love about this place. No one can just seem to say "thank you" for you work. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the info man. :) :cool:
 
Wolf-R1 said:
That's what I love about this place. No one can just seem to say "thank you" for you work. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the info man. :) :cool:


Tell me about it, this place sure has changed in the last few years, full of sniveling kids and assholes. Anyway I liked the guide and thanks for the work, but I still cant find a shootout anywhere with the latest cards, anyone help me there? Thinking of upgrading my vid card ....but I will never pay 500 bucks for one lol as my 9700 pro still plays everything out there very well.Peace and Merry Christmas!!
 
Thanks for the leg work. It confirms my idea that there is no "good" $200 AGP card yet based upon the current technology. Welp...wait for another couple months I geuss.
 
I think you made a fine effort. May I suggest you enhance it by showing the relative speed of each card and the video codecs it does or does not support for comparison. You have kept it short and I like that !
 
Trepidati0n said:
Thanks for the leg work. It confirms my idea that there is no "good" $200 AGP card yet based upon the current technology. Welp...wait for another couple months I geuss.

The Geforce 6600GT AGP and the 6800nu AGP are FANTASTIC cards. Either of them will outperform a last gen card, and they only cost a few days lunch money more than the old 9800 and 9700.

Benchmarks, or links to them on reputable sites would be a good help as well. This seems a little subjective.
 
Well how often do you see posts with people saying "I have 200 dollars to spend, which card should i get?" Well now all you have to do is send them here and they have the answer....
 
BossNoodleKaboodle said:
The Geforce 6600GT AGP and the 6800nu AGP are FANTASTIC cards. Either of them will outperform a last gen card, and they only cost a few days lunch money more than the old 9800 and 9700.

Benchmarks, or links to them on reputable sites would be a good help as well. This seems a little subjective.

In terms of $$$ you are right...it isn't that much. In terms of percent it is HUGE. Just spend another 25%. If I ran 25% over budget on a project at work I would be collecting unemployemnt :D

The philosophy of a few dollar can land up being $100's at the end of a computer build project ;)

-tReP
 
Trepidati0n said:
In terms of $$$ you are right...it isn't that much. In terms of percent it is HUGE. Just spend another 25%. If I ran 25% over budget on a project at work I would be collecting unemployemnt :D

The philosophy of a few dollar can land up being $100's at the end of a computer build project ;)

-tReP

The guys who make it big in business are the ones who learn the difference between cost and value.
 
Trepidati0n said:
Thanks for the leg work. It confirms my idea that there is no "good" $200 AGP card yet based upon the current technology. Welp...wait for another couple months I geuss.

yvw, I was very curious about this as well. I dunno about waiting a couple months, I'd say wait a month and get the extra 50 for a 6800nu.

stca16 said:
Tell me about it, this place sure has changed in the last few years, full of sniveling kids and assholes. Anyway I liked the guide and thanks for the work, but I still cant find a shootout anywhere with the latest cards, anyone help me there? Thinking of upgrading my vid card ....but I will never pay 500 bucks for one lol as my 9700 pro still plays everything out there very well.Peace and Merry Christmas!!

The 9700 pro certainly is a great card still. I don't blame you, I wouldn't pay $500 for one either. No, no, thank you ;).

MeTaSpARKs said:
Hey thanks for the post. Don't listen to these flamers. You've helped alot of people out I'm sure. Thanks for the info.


MS

Surely won't and hope I am helping people out.

Kckazdude said:
Not sure how well it will work as an upgrade 'guide'. It does offer some nice alternatives in the low budget section however. I think it would be more helpful to show advantages/disadvantages of the DirectX 9 series of cards across all price points. Most people I see asking for upgrade advice are moving from DirectX 7 & 8 hardware such as the GF4 MX series.

BossNoodleKaboodle said:
The guys who make it big in business are the ones who learn the difference between cost and value.

There are NO good dx9 cards in the <$60 range, sure there's the 5200 in that range but it CAN'T utilize dx9 at any good speed nor is it coded for dx9 in any games, they all coded it for dx8.1 because that's where it can be used with any good speeds.

Edit: Bump as well for improvements on <$200 range, check it out, snazzy jpg as well :D.

~Adam
 
MeTaSpARKs said:
Hey thanks for the post. Don't listen to these flamers. You've helped alot of people out I'm sure. Thanks for the info.


MS
agrred.. dont listen to the people who have nothing better to do than bitch.. i dont see them helping anybody
 
joecuddles said:
Not really an upgrade guide. You just list cards and prices with your opinion below. Bad attempt at a sticky, in my opinion.

i thought it was useful.

to make it even more useful you could match up a cpu with each card to show where bottlenecking would happen
 
Great thread!

I will use it each time I go to build a new system to accustom the budget needed. Please keep updating if possible. Thanks for your time invested, it should cut down on a lot of needless threads! Good job.

Oh, and Merry Christmas to you and yours as well, hope you enjoy it!
 
fugu said:
i thought it was useful.

to make it even more useful you could match up a cpu with each card to show where bottlenecking would happen

I'd love to do that, it would be rather usefull but I wouldn't know where to begin o.o; maybe if I had the resources I could... hmm what it would take would be:

1 barton core cpu that could do 2.5ghz (don't have it) Or perhaps..
1 fx-53 system (Ha, certainly don't have it)
1 of each graphics card... certainly don't have it.

BUT what we do have is a whole community who, if you all participate we could get a list like that together!

Edit: thanks Creed, oo it got stickied the pressure increases :D

~Adam
 
*edit: Please, if you find better deals post them here and I'll put them in! But only from Newegg.com, I wanna keep it simple!

~Adam
 
fugu said:
i thought it was useful.

to make it even more useful you could match up a cpu with each card to show where bottlenecking would happen

Thats what all the sites like www.hardocp.com are for. The forum is for asking particular questions. There are lots of general reviews and guides on all of these breed of sites. The only difference is that a lot of people don't use google first or try to research the info themselves so the forums get clogged with repeated or inane questions.

Newegg and most of the other retailers aren't that hard to navigate really. The PSU sticky by IceCzar is fantastic as are the other PSU stickys because that info is as hard to find as chicken teeth and they're VERY detailed descriptions of how a complicated thing works.
 
Nice of you to take the time to do the list :)

Out of curiosity, why would you not consider the 9600XT a good sub $150 card? I just bought the kid one for his machine this Christmas and think it is a good card for that price range.
 
The point is that he should look for the benchmarks rather than arbitrary or subjective commentary if he wants a definitive answer to what he asked. Also demonstrating just how quickly you can find information if you look. It took me all of 1 minute to find all of those hundreds of results.
 
Well, he was simply asking me why I hadn't included it and saying that he thought I should have, he wasn't asking about the performance, he already knows the capabilities of the card for the cash. That's why he spoke up and I'm glad he did because I some how missed that card while I sifted through the multitudes of pages of cards I sifted through. I added it to the list and it's a decent deal.

~Adam
 
It should go like this

AGP
5200 Sub $100 (Whips up on the MX series and the 9200's overall)
9600XT Sub $200 (Decent card but shows it's age at high resolutions)
6600GT Sub $250 (A decent card to be sure, lacks on the top end, but still out performs last generations top cards.)
6800GT Sub $300 (If you can't afford $350+ for a 6800GT this is your next best bet. Also has softmod potential.)
6800GT Sub $400 (This is one of the fastest and best priced cards in it's class, easily OC's to Ultra speeds.)
6800Ultra or X800XT-PE $500+ (Only the wealthy need apply, however nothing outruns these cards. Nothing.)

That's the proper ranking of AGP cards for their price brackets and performance.

PCI-Express
X300 Sub $100
6600 Sub $200
6600GT Sub $300
6800GT Sub $400 (When the price gouging stops) (This is one of the fastest and best priced cards in it's class, easily OC's to Ultra speeds.)
6800Ultra or X800XT-PE (When the price gouging stops) (the X800 series is being refreshed with the X850 series. All in all nothings really changed. Just a slight clock speed increase.)

That's the proper ranking of PCI-E cards by price bracket and performance for the money.

When the X800XL comes out it will rule the sub $400 market. Theres no reason not to. With the possiblity of overclocking it to X800XT or X800XT-PE speeds for $350 or less, what's not to love about this card?

For the price brackets listed above you really need to get the "best in class" cards on the list. Just note where the price range is. Reason being, that prices fluctuate and deals fluctuate too much to do it the way you've got it listed. And in the midrange PCI-E bracket the X600 shouldn't make the list as anything other than a waste of time. The X700Pro's are out and can be had in the stores NOW. The 6600GT however walks all over it in most games. Clearly theres no reason to mention the X600. Or any of the Nvidia 5750's or anything of that nature that was brought out in a hurry just so Intel could save face by having some kind of decent video cards on release day of the PCI-E motherboards.

Keep in mind also that all the PCI-E Nvidia cards are SLi capable. Thus overall if your planning on getting the motherboard to do it, you've got a cheap video card upgrade path or the makings of the fastest gaming rig possible so long as you have a high end CPU.
 
Here are the cards I've actually played games on.

Nvidia cards I've owned or have played games on.
Geforce 4 Ti4200 Owned
Geforce 4 Ti4600 Owned
Geforce 4 MX440
Geforce FX 5200 256MB
Geforce 5700LE
Quadro 780XLG
Quadro 980XGL
Geforce 6800GT AGP
Geforce 6600GT PCI-E
Geforce 6800GT PCI-E (Waiting on delivery)

ATi cards I've owned or at least played games on.
Radeon 7000
Radeon 8500
Radeon 9600Pro Owned (Clocked to XT speeds)
Radeon 9600XT
Radeon 9700Pro
Radeon 9800Pro 128MB
Radeon 9800XT 256MB
Radeon X800Pro AGP Owned
Radeon X700Pro Owned

I work as a computer tech and in IT. I've gotten alot of work orders to fix machines that are having trouble with certain games. So I've had to play on all of these for at least an hour or more.

So theres a fair amount of personal experience with all these cards and card classes.
 
As I very much appreciate your efforts in helping, the way I was doing it requires that some cards that you'd consider a "waste of time" just as I would, would make the list. Why? Well because I'm only going by the stock at one company, for instance the X600/X700 problem: there was no X700 at newegg. So you see the dilemma, the X600 performs decently for the price as compared to other cards on newegg. Now, if I were to make a list like you did, it'd probably be like the list you put down.

~Adam
 
Sir-Fragalot said:
It should go like this

AGP
5200 Sub $100 (Whips up on the MX series and the 9200's overall)
9600XT Sub $200 (Decent card but shows it's age at high resolutions)
(...)

With $50 increments you could add 9800Pro to the AGP list:

9600XT Sub $150
9800Pro Sub $200
 
BossNoodleKaboodle said:
The point is that he should look for the benchmarks rather than arbitrary or subjective commentary if he wants a definitive answer to what he asked. Also demonstrating just how quickly you can find information if you look. It took me all of 1 minute to find all of those hundreds of results.

A google search wouldn't give me much insight as why the author of this particular thread on this particular forum didn't include the 9600XT in his list.

The author of this thread understood what I was saying, and that was my intent. Your canned "search for the benchmarks instead of bothering us" reply isn't applicable here. One could click your first link, click the first site (this one as you stated), and see that [H] thought it was "must have hardware", just reaffirming what I was saying to begin with and making my commentary a little less arbitrary and subjective.
 
No offense to the mods but as others have stated this isn't really an upgrade guide and is more of a price list and I think this guy just wanted a sticky I wouldn't have given it to him.
 
Typically there would be tons of detailed reviews involved or links to lots of benchmarks to back up each individual choice in the price category rather than approximate 3dmark scores. They might also contain esoteric information thats terribly hard to come by from reputable sources about products that are usually mislabled or misunderstood like PSU's, for instance.

And 11DayZ why care if its excluded. There aren't even specific brands compared in the guide. The specific brand of card has a lot to do with its reliability, overclockability and performance. There's even a "which 6600GT should I get?" thread.
 
I respect your opinions, however as I stated before a sticky is the least of my concerns. Unsticky it for God's sakes perhaps they'll all shut up, lmao jealous or something? :rolleyes:

BTW didn't you notice that all the information I gave was "hard to find", considering all of it took my a goot 4 or 5 hours to compile? It's all done by my personal experience in each monetary level and my knowledge about graphics cards. I'm sorry if it upsets you that I got a sticky from it... but really crapping on the thread is just being immature. message Fugu if you wish to complain further. He's the one who stickied I think.

<3 now run along or contribute with real knowledge (if you hold any no one else knows) or do some research to help the thread in the areas you think it needs some help in.

~Adam
 
If only what you said was as informed, insightful, or useful as it is condecending, maybe people wouldn't think the post isn't worth being sticky. "<3 now run along or contribute with real knowledge " My my aren't you just so sage.

That information was neither hard to find, nor very detailed. I think thats why people said that its more of a price guide (ever hear of pricewatch?) than a true, in-depth guide. If you look at the guides for PSU's they go deep into precisely what makes the specific choices they recommend so good, and therefore their information is more than just links to products on a site where anyone can search. The other sticky guides were very deeply technical and this one is not. I'm sure it took more than a couple of hours for Ice Czar and computerpro3 to compile the technical graphs, benchmarks, and data they have in their guides. Any idiot with half a brain can use the newegg search feature to find a graphics card that meets their budget and specification requirements. I think thats why several people have said what they have about this "guide".
 
This is unbelievable, I can't believe you guys are bitching about someone taking time to make an effort to make this a better place. So what, the guide doesn't meet you standards or is not of any use to you. MOVE ALONG. Don't waste forums space just to bitch about something that is just your opinion. Some people have already seen the value in this post. Leave it be. Sheesh.
 
creedAMD said:
just your opinion.

Thats all the guide is though. Wheres all the benchmarks and data compiled to give us the reasons why we should get the recommended components? Too many adjectives like "awesome" and "lively" as well. It sounds more like a wine spectator than a buying guide for graphics cards because its so subjective. Different computer used to benchmark cards is never a good idea either. I think the people who raised concerns with the validity have a point in this case.
 
noodle you look for a full review of mid-stream cards with all 6600/gt/x600/x700 cards with all their 3dmarks in it. It took me a good hour JUST to compile what I had, I musta looked through a hundred sites.... www.yahoo.com search my friend. If you find one I'll eat my sock and then delete the thread, lest it was made after the thread was finished.

~Adam
 
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