The Anti-Fold Server

M

marty9876

[H]ard|DCer of the Month - February 2006
Joined
Jun 11, 2003
Messages
4,906
Just kicking this around to see what everyone thought about this idea. unhappy_mage made mention of this, please let us know if you don't have time for it.

For those who know nothing about Linux (me), and also wand a free folding OS (me), and might not want to setup a fold server (just a few boxen, don't know how (me again...) I was thinking a -

Linux based distro based on DSL (Damn Small Linux), an ISO that you could put in the CD, boot up and have it install itself to the hard drive of a system with a push of a button.

Specs:
1. Need to be very light, very very light. Primary goal above all else it ability to turn big gromac (364 pointers/600 pointers) WU's inside 192 meg of ram. I've been doing all the crappers with this much ram that I've been sending out in hopes this would work. A 600 pointer gromac core uses ~102 meg ram, can the OS fit in the other available ram?

2. Ability to swap to the hard drive as needed just in case.

3. Ability to set the config file per user at install/reconfig as needed.

4. I think this means no X (hehe I know what X means I'm so happy. It's the graphical interface, I think...)

5. Ability to monitor the boxen (just a share and hit it with EM3?)

6. Remote ability to stop/reboot/shutdown (SSH stuff? I have no clue here)

7. Lost train of thought, please add.

8. Got it back, support for tons of different hardware (nics/modems (that's gonna be fun, maybe leave it as a LAN only version?)

9. DHCP support with some way of setting a static IP.

I'm thinking maybe folks would like an free OS which installs itself to the hard drive. Maybe not, I kinda would. Live CD's are great, it's just most don't save work in progress is my understanding. Overclockix takes 256 meg ram to boot from what I can tell, I'm such a Linux noob I really don't know.

Thoughts all? CD, pop in, turn WU with 192 meg ram my thoughts.

Edit: Something simple even I can use :D

Marty
 
The idea intrigues me. I have an old boxen just sitting around because it has crap for a hard drive and not enough room to squeeze an OS on. So I guess I'm #1. :)

 
It would be nice :)

Saves from dealing with pesky 2k installs and patches for 8 hours...
 
I think it's a damned good idea. Especially with so many 192 mb folding boxen joining the effort soon. ;) I know I'd be interested.

I dont have the chops with the penguin to hack it together, though. I'd be happy to host the distro on my http server, though. At least as long as it's not unreasonably massive, then we'd be wiser to use BT. The server's colo'd and I'm not using it for much of anything at the moment so there's tons (and tons) of bandwidth available.

 
marty9876 said:
1. Need to be very light, very very light. Primary goal above all else it ability to turn big gromac (364 pointers/600 pointers) WU's inside 192 meg of ram. I've been doing all the crappers with this much ram that I've been sending out in hopes this would work. A 600 pointer gromac core uses ~102 meg ram, can the OS fit in the other available ram?
Click to expand...
Heck yeah. This will be heavily based on the fold-server client. That uses only 30mb of ram for the OS, and it doesn't have *any* permanent storage. A cd-rom worth of storage will make a big difference.
2. Ability to swap to the hard drive as needed just in case.
Click to expand...
Would you rather have it
a) autoformat 2gb worth of swap on whatever disk it can find or
b) use only existing swap partitions?
The problem with a) is that if you have stuff on the disk that you want to keep and accidentally boot this disk, it's gone. The problem with b) is that you have to manually create partitions at some point.
3. Ability to set the config file per user at install/reconfig as needed.
Click to expand...
This is the hard one. Probably only the username and team# would be changeable, and I'd set it up to automatically get the best protein per CPU type. However, it pretty much means that the CD would have to be remastered by the end-users (eg you guys).
4. I think this means no X (hehe I know what X means I'm so happy. It's the graphical interface, I think...)
Click to expand...
Very good, you're learning!
5. Ability to monitor the boxen (just a share and hit it with EM3?)
Click to expand...
If EM3 is okay with everyone, I can set up Samba on it. Then you'd just enter \\ip.address.here\fah into EM3 and it'd start monitoring.
6. Remote ability to stop/reboot/shutdown (SSH stuff? I have no clue here)
Click to expand...
Yep, ssh would do this fine. It's already set up. Do y'all want a web-based configuration thingy, or just the ability to ssh into the machine?
8. Got it back, support for tons of different hardware (nics/modems (that's gonna be fun, maybe leave it as a LAN only version?)
Click to expand...
Lan only. If you want to set up something with a modem, find a proxy that's http/1.1 compliant and run it on your dialin machine. Then set the clients to use the proxy. We used to do this with Squid before they broke it.
9. DHCP support with some way of setting a static IP.
Click to expand...
DHCP is easy. Static ip not so much. I can put it in the config, but it'll mean burning a different ISO for each static IP'd machine.
I'm thinking maybe folks would like an free OS which installs itself to the hard drive. Maybe not, I kinda would. Live CD's are great, it's just most don't save work in progress is my understanding. Overclockix takes 256 meg ram to boot from what I can tell, I'm such a Linux noob I really don't know.
Click to expand...
So what's desired from everyone else? I can do autoinstallers, I made one for Crashsector and this would just be a modification of that.

Let me know what yall are looking for and I'll get on it. I can host, I've got Sourceforge and filefarmer accounts. It'll probably turn out under 20mb if I had to guess.

 
So, I use the fold server currently. Its installed on a p3 500 MHz system. The only changes I would like made is:

1: FireFox on start-up - I don't know that I want it to start when X comes up. I would like the home page to be "localhost" or something to that order when I want it. I need the ram for other things.

2: An Icon for psummary.html update - Is it possible to add a desktop icon for this simple command? Could a script be added to the config page?

3: Free boxen with every ISO download - Well......it's worth a try!

4: EM3 setup ready - I use it. Lots of people use it. I don't know how this will affect Linux users if it gets setup that way.

5: HT or Dual core ready - I don't have that many systems with those type of processors, but in a farm setting that would be nice to have it start two instances on one system. Especially with a low overhead for the operating system. Merely an option or just some documentation on how to do it. (Planning on having one for the farm by November :D )

6: More documentation on VNC - I have a KVM setup right now due to personal issues with VNC and power outages causing errors. I use the Remote Desktop Connecton with my other windows xp box. Any suggestions?

Most of my other questions are more along the lines of speciality changes on my own farm (script changes, html page editing, etc). So far the experience has been excellent with fold-server. Mage answers email in under a day, plenty of users on the forum have had experience with these systems, so support is abundant.

 
1) Use the web config -> "Configure services" -> "Programs that start with X" and uncheck the "firefox localhost &" line.
2) Damn, that's brilliant. Why didn't I think of that. I'll have to look at that.
3) In your friggin' dreams ;)
4) ok
5) The clients are dual core ready. The server isn't. So in other words, put the server on $OLDBOX and boot the new 4x00+ off it. Counterintuitive, isn't it?
6) What kind of documentation are you looking for?

 
Mage, I'd say all of those proposals sound wonderful. At least for me, my preference would be to have it autoformat a couple of gb as the boxen that I'd be considering it for don't have anything worth keeping.

 
unhappy_mage said:
1) Use the web config -> "Configure services" -> "Programs that start with X" and uncheck the "firefox localhost &" line.
2) Damn, that's brilliant. Why didn't I think of that. I'll have to look at that.
3) In your friggin' dreams ;)
4) ok
5) The clients are dual core ready. The server isn't. So in other words, put the server on $OLDBOX and boot the new 4x00+ off it. Counterintuitive, isn't it?
6) What kind of documentation are you looking for?

Click to expand...

1: "Error: /home/dsl/.xinitrc.default doesn't exist!" is what that option says to me. I might have an issues to fix.
2. Cool. easy fix then.
3. Doh! :eek:
4. nuff said
5. So, If I start a boxen, and it connects to the fold-server, it knows that it's a dual core processor and it will start two instances of F@H?
6. I will send PM with details.

Also, all config files can be edited in the individual folders right? Meaning if I have a large system, capable of handling QMDs, that I can change the config file in that boxes folder to make it get large WUs.
 
ICE_9 said:
1: "Error: /home/dsl/.xinitrc.default doesn't exist!" is what that option says to me. I might have an issues to fix.
Click to expand...
Do "cp /home/dsl/.xinitrc /home/dsl/.xinitrc.default" and try again. Stupid bugs.
Also, all config files can be edited in the individual folders right? Meaning if I have a large system, capable of handling QMDs, that I can change the config file in that boxes folder to make it get large WUs.
Click to expand...
The boxen autoconfigure. They look at what hardware you're running on, and figure out what the best WU type to request is. You could change the script to fit your tastes/needs, but generally it does a good job at figuring out the best type of WU.

 
Ask and you shall receive...wow! Nice, U_M. :cool:

How long will it take you to develop something like this? Also, is it possible to develop a UD-Server as well?
 
UD doesn't have a Linux client, and has no plans to make one. I've also been unable to get it going under Wine. So, basically, no. If they release a client for Linux, I'd be able to have it up in a few days/weeks. But until they do, we're stuck with Windows.

As for how long it'll take, it depends when I actually find time to work on it. AKA stop reading forums and get on it. ;)

ICE_9, IDGPM.

 
I really like this whole idea!
I am Linux nOOb....not just new....never have played with it yet...dont even know how to start! :p
I would like this beast you speak of and want to learn Linux. I downloaded fold-server becuase I want to set up a few cpus with it and thought it would be best! (right Mage)
Can someone point to a book or online page to help get my feet wet here?
I mean general Linux stuff not the fold-server...Ill give that a try after a while.
Thanks

 
unhappy_mage said:
Heck yeah. This will be heavily based on the fold-server client. That uses only 30mb of ram for the OS, and it doesn't have *any* permanent storage. A cd-rom worth of storage will make a big difference.

1. Would you rather have it
a) autoformat 2gb worth of swap on whatever disk it can find or
b) use only existing swap partitions?
The problem with a) is that if you have stuff on the disk that you want to keep and accidentally boot this disk, it's gone. The problem with b) is that you have to manually create partitions at some point.

This is the hard one. Probably only the username and team# would be changeable, and I'd set it up to automatically get the best protein per CPU type. However, it pretty much means that the CD would have to be remastered by the end-users (eg you guys).

Very good, you're learning!

If EM3 is okay with everyone, I can set up Samba on it. Then you'd just enter \\ip.address.here\fah into EM3 and it'd start monitoring.

Yep, ssh would do this fine. It's already set up. Do y'all want a web-based configuration thingy, or just the ability to ssh into the machine?

2. Lan only. If you want to set up something with a modem, find a proxy that's http/1.1 compliant and run it on your dialin machine. Then set the clients to use the proxy. We used to do this with Squid before they broke it.

3. DHCP is easy. Static ip not so much. I can put it in the config, but it'll mean burning a different ISO for each static IP'd machine.

4. So what's desired from everyone else? I can do autoinstallers, I made one for Crashsector and this would just be a modification of that.

Let me know what yall are looking for and I'll get on it. I can host, I've got Sourceforge and filefarmer accounts. It'll probably turn out under 20mb if I had to guess.

Click to expand...

Ok per my # inserts above-

1. Autoformat/partion. I'm thinking just has this thing take over the hard drive. For me atleast with the crappers small hard drives (<10 gig) are the normal. Easy to come by. I know some folks won't like this, but that's where the live CD's come in. Basically I'd like to see a moron proff OS that you could install locally, setup and forget. Honestly the best comparision is something as easy as windows, but free and light as heck. Just a simple OS to install and be folding away. Nothing fancy, just dumbed way down.

2 . I'l lost already (please don't bother to explain...:) ). Just leave it LAN only. Most folks have broadband/routers/switches I hope if they are interested in a mini farm setup ect.

3. I guess the only reason I asked for static was the ability to target/monitor the boxen. DHCP get's messy fast, maybe there is an easy way to counter this (NetBios name or something like that?). Could the setup inculde the option to use a. DHCP or b. static set at time of install? I think I've seen this before.

4. I like the word autoinstaller....

Misc. Geez, 30 meg overhead, 192 meg ram- 30 OS- 110 folding- 5 console= room to spare. I still think swapping is a good safe guard to include, hence all the mention of hard drives ect. Others and said USB drives, that's cool too. Fro me atleast, small hard drives are a dime a dozen. Be nice to be able to use those <1 gig drives for something.

The trick here is running large WU's (not QMD's) across the board. This sounds doable!

Kinda an installation overview for my dumb butt-

Insert CD, boot

Install Mages folding deally y/n

Overwrite harddrive y/n

DHCP/Static IP input

User name/team

Folding client config (can't you just overwrite the existing config with the input of questions asked here? Or just flag allow reciept of large WU's and leave it at that. Your auto selector is great, some folks just like the control maybe?

Done!

Yea, being able to access simple web based controls would be sweet. Punch in \\192.169.1.2\ to a web browser (IP just an example) and have a page you could reboot/start/stop/shutdown/borg the world would be sweet.

Thanks for all your input unhappy_mage/everyone. I'm sure the cost on an OS, which you know how to use (me included here) might stop many a folder from folding on some boxen. Not to say the fold server is not great, it's just honestly I'd have absolutly no clue how to set it up for example.
 
Mayhem33 said:
I really like this whole idea!
I am Linux nOOb....not just new....never have played with it yet...dont even know how to start! :p
I would like this beast you speak of and want to learn Linux. I downloaded fold-server becuase I want to set up a few cpus with it and thought it would be best! (right Mage)
Can someone point to a book or online page to help get my feet wet here?
I mean general Linux stuff not the fold-server...Ill give that a try after a while.
Thanks

Click to expand...

Might I reccomend Running Linux from O'Reilly books? When I started with *nix I went straight to it, except it didn't help much as I started with Slackware, and as for the way it works compared to other distros of *nix should be called Crackware. It covers Red Had, SuSe, and Debian quite thoroughly, although Debian Sarge may be a bit different (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure if Sarge implemented any massive core changes). It's a bit on the expensive side at 45 bucks, but for an extensive beginner's manual and reference guide from the ground up, it's pretty damn good IMO. ISB: 0-596-0272-6
 
I have some exprence with Linux, so if you need someone to help test it, I would be willing to help.
 
This sounds like it could really come together well.
I look forward to giving this a whirl.

Having a remote start/stop/reboot web interface sounds really good, what kind of overhead will that have on RAM usage?
To start I think SSH would suffice. Would there be a way to make a wrapper/frontend for that instead of having a web interface?

Maybe as for the swap space, we could use a HDD or USB flash?
I'd like to not have to use a HDD for power/noise considerations.

[DUMB QUESTION]
Where are the work files going to be stored? If the HDD is for swap space only, where are you going to put the dynamic work/config files?
[/DUMB QUESTION]

Linux takes 30MB to run? What happened to the days of running Linux on 8MB or less?
Back in the DOS days, Linux would run on basically air. (i.e. not much ram)




 
FreeSCO is a floppy based version that will run as little as 4MB. Mainly used for routers that can do more like file storage, web service, and monitoring.
 
re: vnc
ICE_9 said:
6. I will send PM with details.
Click to expand...
me said:
ICE_9, I Don't Got PM.
Click to expand...
That's what I meant.

And wrt running in X mb of space, this is 30 MB with *no* hard drive. All of the FAH files are in there, too, including all the cores (that's 15329512 bytes of uncompressed data right there). That makes for a lot bigger RAM usage than a boot-from-floppy type system. What the "run in X mb" types usually have as an advantage is a 1.7MB storage device (floppy) with huge compression. This version will have that advantage.

gigabyte: the answer to your question is, it won't *just* use the hard drive as swap space. It'll actually use 128MB of space for swap, and the rest for FAH files and such.

Progress: I've got a working installer, except for one thing. I can't get grub (a bootloader) to install properly. There's a config file and all, and grub installs fine, but then it refuses to load the config file. If one enters the config file directives by hand, it even boots off it fine.
Semi-edit: DAMN I can make some dumb mistakes. Note to everyone else: there is a difference between this:
echo > /boot/grub/grub.conf <<EOF
stuff
EOF
and this:
cat > /boot/grub/grub.conf <<EOF
stuff
EOF
the main difference being, of course, the second works and the first doesn't. :rolleyes:
Grub's working now. Now I need to build a better kernel - this one has a lot of stuff that isn't needed, and is missing some stuff that is needed.

 
unhappy_mage said:
Progress: I've got a working installer, except for one thing. I can't get grub (a bootloader) to install properly. There's a config file and all, and grub installs fine, but then it refuses to load the config file. If one enters the config file directives by hand, it even boots off it fine.
Semi-edit: DAMN I can make some dumb mistakes. Note to everyone else: there is a difference between this:
echo > /boot/grub/grub.conf <<EOF
stuff
EOF
and this:
cat > /boot/grub/grub.conf <<EOF
stuff
EOF
the main difference being, of course, the second works and the first doesn't. :rolleyes:
Grub's working now. Now I need to build a better kernel - this one has a lot of stuff that isn't needed, and is missing some stuff that is needed.

Click to expand...


Okay, if you get this one out working soon, I think some of us are going to have to get you out and get you laid for your efforts. You're going to need some rest and relaxation after this and you deserve it. I nominate K* for this since he's closer than I am and since he's always bragging about his women. This should be nothing for him to do. :cool:

 
unhappy_mage said:
re: vnc

gigabyte: the answer to your question is, it won't *just* use the hard drive as swap space. It'll actually use 128MB of space for swap, and the rest for FAH files and such.
Click to expand...

So this distro will *require* a HDD?
 
marty9876 said:
Linux based distro based on DSL (Damn Small Linux), an ISO that you could put in the CD, boot up and have it install itself to the hard drive of a system with a push of a button.
Click to expand...

....
 
Don't let my thoughts didicate where this goes. In short the easiest way to get a boxen folding w/o Windows XP ect is my thoughts. Also with out buying anything, just use existing old boxen laying around.
 
marty9876 said:
Don't let my thoughts didicate where this goes. In short the easiest way to get a boxen folding w/o Windows XP ect is my thoughts. Also with out buying anything, just use existing old boxen laying around.
Click to expand...

I know exactly what you mean and it's something I would like to have also. This is something that has been missing for a while I think. There are a lot of things out there that do an install and everything but not like this. Essentially, I see this as a simple Linux installer for people that do not know how to use it but want something quick and easy to setup on dedicated folding boxen that they have laying around. It saves the need to buy an OS and the long install procedure for WinXP or trying to figure out Linux.

Besides, this could get a few more people interested in Linux and who knows what could come from that. Just look at what unhappy_mage has done for us so far. Just think if we eventually get a couple more people like him around here and what could be accomplished by it.

He's done an amazing job and I'd love to see the results of having a couple more people around like that. Besides, it would give him a break from doing all the Linux work for all of us. I almost hate to think of the time and effort he has put into the foldserver project alone. I don't care if he puts up another point for the project considering what he has already contributed.

I don't know exactly how fold-server is setup, but if I ever get the boxen to run it, and it allows for it, I'd setup at least one of the clients in his name just for the work he's put into this.

 
gigabyte: For now it will, I'll probably get a version for a USB stick out and a live-cd only version.

SmokeRngs: I appreciate the sentiment, but really the kudos don't go to me. I wouldn't have gotten far if not for the people who used it when it was really crappy - marty9876 and OldBenwa, mostly, but there are a few others who I forget.

The whole reason I'm doing this project (and fold-server, for that matter) is because I can't produce points for the team. When I go to college this fall, the production will change, but I hope that I can keep going on the projects.

If anyone wants to help out, I'm open to suggestions. Mention it to people on other forums, test it out and give me suggestions, almost anything you think will help. Crashsector's writing some documentation from an end-user's POV; this will probably help out a good deal with eliminating the things that I didn't think to write down because they're obvious to me.

On that topic, does anyone know where to set up a wiki for free/cheap? It'd be nice to have a place for the user-made documentation to go without sending it to me and me uploading it. I don't mind doing it, but the immediate feedback a wiki offers is helpful. I'm just throwing it out there; I'm not sure it's a must-have.

 
You not done yet??? What the heck...geez :D :D :D

Wiki, yea of got tons on that here. Small/Meduim/Large in cans and bottles.... ok so I'm lost again.
 
Could this and the doco be integrated (as a menu item) on the [H]ardfolding page?

/edit: Has anyone asked for a link to Hardfolding.com from Hardocp main page?
 
Well, I made some progress; I have a script which gets the latest FAH client straight from the horse's mouth, without using perl. For a glimpse at how complicated this is, look at the following code:
Code: 
LFC=`wget --quiet [url]http://folding.stanford.edu/download.html[/url] -O - |\
 grep Linux |\
 sed 's/.*href="\([^"]*\)".*/\1/'`
Now, granted, this is 90% of the script, but still... :eek:

PS: Thanks for the sed help, dad! ;)

 
KieferMonkey said:
Has anyone used Overclockix?
I have no experience with it, but it looks like a live CD with folding ready to go.
Click to expand...

other then the fact you have to go in and change the user name and team name with an ISO editor before you burn it.. :p

besides... why use another teams stuff, when we can make our very own better solution :)
 
KieferMonkey said:
Has anyone used Overclockix?
I have no experience with it, but it looks like a live CD with folding ready to go.
Click to expand...

Overclockix is kinda bloated in my eyes, lots of unneeded stuff running in the background stealing cycles from folding. Mage's distro will be made just to fold, running the bare minimum needed to fold.

Oldbenwa
 
Oldbenwa said:
Overclockix is kinda bloated in my eyes, lots of unneeded stuff running in the background stealing cycles from folding. Mage's distro will be made just to fold, running the bare minimum needed to fold.

Oldbenwa
Click to expand...

I have to agree with this assessment of Overclockix. I burned a copy and messed with it for a little while. I was running into problems with some stuff with it and it required 256 meg of RAM to run. Mind you, I know jack shit about Linux and the hardware it was running on was old so I don't necesarily hold that against the distro. I do take exception with the amount of RAM needed to run it. It required 256 just to boot the OS from the CD. I had to scrounge and look everywhere for another 64 meg of RAM that would play nice with the other RAM I had already had on the motherboard before I could mess with anything.

What unhappy_mage is now working on is much different. It won't have much of anything loaded up except what is needed for folding, will almost be an automatic installer (there will be some questions that will have to be answered like team number and user name) and will run on a machine with less than 256 meg of RAM. A lot of crappers don't have 256 meg of RAM and many times it's not worth buying more RAM for them.

This distro will address many issues that some people have with folding. I will really appreciate the almost automatic insaller and I have a machine that's just begging for this thing at the moment.

 
SmokeRngs said:
short version....

Click to expand...

Yea, needs 256 just to run. The desktop wall paper stuff was cool as hell though.

This brings up an interesting point, what will be the min requirments for the "Anti-Fold" server? Hummmm, I guess under normal WU's, 64 should work quite well (30 for OS, 30 for folding). That bad...

This is also why I keep going back to ability to swap. We ran into problems with the fold server from lack of swap options. Not saying swapping is great, but it does have the ability to keep things running.
 
Well, once this thing is ready to rip, I've got an IBM thinkpad that could go for some low-memory OS goodness. P3733 just waiting to stomp some big WU's.
 
woot.

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~willm1/test.iso

for beta testers only. a few notes --
- WARNING it automatically wipes the primary master drive. no "should I?", it just does it. watch where you put this disk. WARNING
- it needs dhcp. if there's enough demand for static addressing, i'll put it in.
- no samba yet. it's coming, don't worry.

and a few things I'd like to make sure work:
- try "/etc/getfold". Does it retrieve FAH as expected? I can't test it properly.
- try "/etc/fold init" and "/etc/fold start". Then check "top". FAH running? q to exit.
- try "testnet". does it report all is well?

Any installer woes, whatever, report back. You have your [H]omework!

edit: Okay, forgot a step. it says "fold-box login:" at the bottom, right? Enter "root", and then "Fold@on" when it asks for a password.

 
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