TrueHD, how with HTPCs ?

Phrik

Phrik

Gawd
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Jan 3, 2006
Messages
636
So.... I've been reading about TrueHD and its likes lately, most I have found out is that it only passes through HDMI 1.3... so how will it work with HTPCs, since it's DVI ?
 
Phrik said:
So.... I've been reading about TrueHD and its likes lately, most I have found out is that it only passes through HDMI 1.3... so how will it work with HTPCs, since it's DVI ?
Click to expand...

PowerDVD will will decode TrueHD and pass it through to your receiver. Creative has a kit for ~$15.
 
TrueHD as in the Sounds from HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players can't be done on current HTPC's, as there is no soundcard currently that can process that information. As you said, you need a soundcard with HDMI v1.3 to do this.

All sounds (assuming you are going through a soundcard and being passed off to your reciever) will only be 5.1. So TrueHD sounds get downgraded to normal DTS.

You can read more about this here...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=935302
 
Powerhouse2k said:
TrueHD as in the Sounds from HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players can't be done on current HTPC's, as there is no soundcard currently that can process that information. As you said, you need a soundcard with HDMI v1.3 to do this.

All sounds (assuming you are going through a soundcard and being passed off to your reciever) will only be 5.1. So TrueHD sounds get downgraded to normal DTS.

You can read more about this here...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=935302
Click to expand...
Neg. It works over analog with an X-Fi soundcard which outputs 24-bit/96kHz in 7.1 channels. I'm using the above cables that the previous poster recommended and it works great. PowerDVD itself does the DD+, TrueHD, and DTS-HD decoding.

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD.html
http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=208&product=14066
http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/products/main_112_ENU.html
 
Perhaps you should read up more W1retap. Here is some prime examples about HD Audio in a HTPC environment:

This thread is titled: FACT: You cannot listen to High Resolution HD audio via PowerDVD
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892863

Here are some notable quotes:
"No, PowerDVD will always downsample if the source is higher that 48/16 and it doesn't support DTS-HD MA yet. Even if AACS has been removed."

"The conversion from the TrueHD to the PCM isn't exactly a 1:1 copy. TrueHD is usually 24-bit 96kHz, while the SPDIF output you are getting from PowerDVD is 16-bit 48kHz. "


If your interested, you can read up on the trials and tribulations of PowerDVD (which is currently the only way to play HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on your PC, that is widely supported):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773218

There is an alternative to PowerDVD that does HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, from Arcsoft which you can read here (not ready for English prime-time yet, but the company says soon):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=900666
 
Thanks for the info Powerhouse2k. I didn't realize the sorry state of PC HD audio.
 
Do you have to have a 7.1 system to listen TrueHD anyway ? All the links I have read is always referring to 7.1 sound systems.
 
Powerhouse2k said:
Perhaps you should read up more W1retap. Here is some prime examples about HD Audio in a HTPC environment:

This thread is titled: FACT: You cannot listen to High Resolution HD audio via PowerDVD
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892863

Here are some notable quotes:
"No, PowerDVD will always downsample if the source is higher that 48/16 and it doesn't support DTS-HD MA yet. Even if AACS has been removed."

"The conversion from the TrueHD to the PCM isn't exactly a 1:1 copy. TrueHD is usually 24-bit 96kHz, while the SPDIF output you are getting from PowerDVD is 16-bit 48kHz. "


If your interested, you can read up on the trials and tribulations of PowerDVD (which is currently the only way to play HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on your PC, that is widely supported):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773218

There is an alternative to PowerDVD that does HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, from Arcsoft which you can read here (not ready for English prime-time yet, but the company says soon):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=900666
Click to expand...
I don't use optical, I use analog. But every indication I see, it doesn't "downres". In the information tab in PowerDVD it shows full range, and when I pull up the in movie information overlay, it shows the full bitrate MLP audio track playing at greater than 1.5mbps. If I use the creative driver settings to manually force 16bit 48khz, the sound is slightly muddied more and you can tell you aren't getting full range audio. The difference is clear from what I hear, so I am very skeptical of what a $12 per hour foreign email tech is saying.
Phrik said:
Do you have to have a 7.1 system to listen TrueHD anyway ? All the links I have read is always referring to 7.1 sound systems.
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Yes.
 
I thought that in the decoding process of TrueHD, PowerDVD will automatically resample to 16 bit 48kHz regardless of whether you are using digital or analog output (it has to do with something about not having a protected path for audio defined in the PC industry.)

I could certainly be wrong and would hope that's the case. HD Audio on the PC is in much worse shape than the video. Maybe the guys/gals at Slysoft can work on this next. ;)
 
KENNYB said:
Thanks for the info Powerhouse2k. I didn't realize the sorry state of PC HD audio.
Click to expand...
He's blowing smoke. The latest PowerDVD update patches it so that it doesn't downgrade the audio, it use to be a issue but it's not now.

You can listen to TrueHD but you have to use a sound card capable of playing back material at that quality (like the Xfi) and the TrueHD audio track gets decoding using the CPU and passed along to the sound card to spit out to your speakers.
 
The difference is clear from what I hear, so I am very skeptical of what a $12 per hour foreign email tech is saying.
Click to expand...

I guess the same could be said about Yours or My posts as well W1retap. But for Sound and Video information, I tend to read the AVSForum and listed to Audio and Video people who know their stuff, more so than what is posted at the [H]ard. Just like I wouldn't be reading about Overclocking, or computer hardware reviews at AVS instead of the [H]ard.

As for you hearing a difference, again, if you read the FACT Thread, people in there are actually saying that 7.1 over Analog does sound better than using just SPDIF, but it's not at the TrueHD quailty. Slightly better than SPDIF, but not up to TrueHD quality. Now whether you can hear the difference from 7.1 Analog vs. TrueHD, well, that's another argument I wouldn't care to get into (but you can read about these issues on the AVSForums as well).

He's blowing smoke. The latest PowerDVD update patches it so that it doesn't downgrade the audio, it use to be a issue but it's not now.
Click to expand...

So which version number is this? Could it be the same versions that now NO LONGER ALLOWS playback of HD material from your Harddrive? Which is fine if you want to just pop in a disk and play it straight from your HTPC DVD player without copying the Movie to your Hard Drive. But then, wouldn't a stand alone HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player do the same, but with full support for TrueHD as well? Oh yeah, and there is no current Sound Card that can do TrueHD. They can do 7.1, but that isn't the same as TrueHD.
 
Powerhouse2k said:
So which version number is this? Could it be the same versions that now NO LONGER ALLOWS playback of HD material from your Harddrive? Which is fine if you want to just pop in a disk and play it straight from your HTPC DVD player without copying the Movie to your Hard Drive.
Click to expand...
IIRC it is, so what? This isn't a new thing, anyone that has played with HD/BR on the PC knows that the whole process is inherently broken and held together with the tech equivalent of duck tape. One thing gets fixed, the fix breaks something else. If you can't deal with that then I highly suggest that you go out and get a stand alone player.
But then, wouldn't a stand alone HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player do the same, but with full support for TrueHD as well?
Click to expand...
Point me to a stand alone player that does the same things as an HTPC. :rolleyes:
 
You can still playback HD DVD off the hard drive. Just mount your rip as an ISO and it works fine.

But why are you so angry powerhouse? Take a seat man. It isn't the end of the world if you are being skeptical of things.

No current soundcard can pass TrueHD natively to be decoded by the receiver. Current soundcards can however output analog with TrueHD decoded by PowerDVD. 24-bit/96kHz to all 8 channels.
 
CrimandEvil said:
IIRC it is, so what? This isn't a new thing, anyone that has played with HD/BR on the PC knows that the whole process is inherently broken and held together with the tech equivalent of duck tape. One thing gets fixed, the fix breaks something else. If you can't deal with that then I highly suggest that you go out and get a stand alone player.

Point me to a stand alone player that does the same things as an HTPC. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

You can have a standalone and an HTPC, which is what I'm doing. Maybe I'll get a HD/BD drive someday but there's not that much incentive if you already have standalones.
 
w1retap said:
Neg. It works over analog with an X-Fi soundcard which outputs 24-bit/96kHz in 7.1 channels. I'm using the above cables that the previous poster recommended and it works great. PowerDVD itself does the DD+, TrueHD, and DTS-HD decoding.

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD.html
http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=208&product=14066
http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/products/main_112_ENU.html
Click to expand...

I agree with w1retap PowerDVD does decode TrueHD over analog bcuz I have a similar setup. I have a Pioneer blu-ray optical drive, PowerDVD, Creative X-Fi Xtremegamer connected via analog to my Logitech z-5450 speaker system and can hear the difference between Blu-Ray audio over DVD audio. I only have a 5.1 speaker setup so I can't comment if TrueHD does work with 7.1 speaker setups. I know the signal gets downsampled when outputed via SPDIF but not via analog. The only disturbing thing I came across is this:

http://www.cyberlink.com/english/products/powerdvd/ultra/audio.jsp
"CyberLink PowerDVD Ultra supports up to 5.1 channels of high-definition audio with these leading technologies:

* Dolby TrueHD: Mandatory audio for all HD DVD players and optional for Blu-ray Discs. TrueHD delivers lossless, source-master-quality sound as multi-channel audio soundtracks to a playback system. TrueHD is compatible with older A/V players through HDMI. "

Cyberlink states that the PowerDVD does support TrueHD BUT only via a 5.1 speaker setup. Could this be what's causing the confusion?
 
I don't know about that. This crap is confusing and the company's PR people make it even worse. I have a 7.1 setup, but all my HD movies I have are only 5.1 DD+ or 5.1 TrueHD. I use the CMSS feature so it expands the two rear channels dynamically to the side, sort of like in some movie theaters.
 
I just read the thread over at AVS and it is quite long, technical at times, and full of complaining. It still seems that all HD audio from PowerDVD is downsampled to 16bit/48kHz no matter whether you are using digital or analog. (Many claim that PowerDVD's audio bitrate reading is of the source and not what is being output.) The only thing I found remotely useful in there seems to be some program called eac3to that can convert TrueHD (among other things) to flac.
 
No. PowerDVD Ultra does full res TrueHD and DTS-HD.
http://www.cyberlink.com/english/products/powerdvd/ultra/audio.jsp
It cannot do it over optical due to bandwidth limitations, therefore must be downsampled. That is the circumstance where obviously it gets downsampled.

Again, when I playback TrueHD audio tracks over analog with the Creative Theater Cables I can go into the audio track info and see in real time the bitrate it is running at (~1.5mbps), and then I can switch back over to DD+ (~640kbps) and notice a difference in sound quality. Please, stop spreading the rumor that one know it all started on AVS forum. Everyone gets suckered into it. If you really do believe it, I'd take it up with Cyberlink in court and you could win yourself a hefty lawsuit.
 
w1retap said:
No. PowerDVD Ultra does full res TrueHD and DTS-HD.
http://www.cyberlink.com/english/products/powerdvd/ultra/audio.jsp
It cannot do it over optical due to bandwidth limitations, therefore must be downsampled. That is the circumstance where obviously it gets downsampled.

Again, when I playback TrueHD audio tracks over analog with the Creative Theater Cables I can go into the audio track info and see in real time the bitrate it is running at (~1.5mbps), and then I can switch back over to DD+ (~640kbps) and notice a difference in sound quality. Please, stop spreading the rumor that one know it all started on AVS forum. Everyone gets suckered into it. If you really do believe it, I'd take it up with Cyberlink in court and you could win yourself a hefty lawsuit.
Click to expand...
'

hmm interesting info, thxman you've made me a bit happier

so what kind of reciever would take in 5.1 or 7,1 analog signal? do most of them? over a regular 5.1 system, could i hear the difference from dd+ to TrueHD going through the method that you use, or do you have some crazy speaker setup ?
 
I'm using the Onkyo TX-SR605 with Yambeka 7ch speakers and a SB X-Fi Xtreme Music card connected using the Creative 7.1 Theater Cables. It is a pretty inexpensive setup, but i can notice a difference. In movies that contain the TrueHD and DD+ soundtrack, when I switch over to TrueHD the highs and mids that stick out in action scenes are more defined. The difference isn't huge because the ear isn't capable of picking up all the little differences, but it is noticeable in certain scenes of movies if you flip back and forth to compare.
 
Good info, and thanks for clearing all of that up. Stuff like this can be a pain to research with all the misinformation going around.

Was debating on whether to use the analog or digital input on my desktop 5.1 "mini theatre" that i'm currently setting up (yamaha HTR 5440 + DIY speakers). This info saved me a lot of confusion.

By any chance does anyone know if standard camcorder 3-to-1 cable can be used with the Creative Audigy 2? Instead of using creative's cable solution that is. Hmmph, that's if an audigy 2 would even work here...
 
w1retap said:
I'm using the Onkyo TX-SR605 with Yambeka 7ch speakers and a SB X-Fi Xtreme Music card connected using the Creative 7.1 Theater Cables. It is a pretty inexpensive setup, but i can notice a difference. In movies that contain the TrueHD and DD+ soundtrack, when I switch over to TrueHD the highs and mids that stick out in action scenes are more defined. The difference isn't huge because the ear isn't capable of picking up all the little differences, but it is noticeable in certain scenes of movies if you flip back and forth to compare.
Click to expand...

if i setup my speakers as 5.1 will anything other then the 2 side channels be changed?
 
I'm unsure if that camcorder cable would work. It is a possibility, but for sure the creative cables will work with the Audigy. They are only $15.
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
if i setup my speakers as 5.1 will anything other then the 2 side channels be changed?
Click to expand...
If you set it up with 5.1, everything will map to the correct speakers just fine assuming you plug it in correctly. In the sound card setup, you choose the analog 5.1 speaker option.
 
w1retap said:
No. PowerDVD Ultra does full res TrueHD and DTS-HD.
http://www.cyberlink.com/english/products/powerdvd/ultra/audio.jsp
It cannot do it over optical due to bandwidth limitations, therefore must be downsampled. That is the circumstance where obviously it gets downsampled.

Again, when I playback TrueHD audio tracks over analog with the Creative Theater Cables I can go into the audio track info and see in real time the bitrate it is running at (~1.5mbps), and then I can switch back over to DD+ (~640kbps) and notice a difference in sound quality. Please, stop spreading the rumor that one know it all started on AVS forum. Everyone gets suckered into it. If you really do believe it, I'd take it up with Cyberlink in court and you could win yourself a hefty lawsuit.
Click to expand...

I agree with this based on experience as well.
 
w1retap said:
If you set it up with 5.1, everything will map to the correct speakers just fine assuming you plug it in correctly. In the sound card setup, you choose the analog 5.1 speaker option.
Click to expand...


thank you sir you've made my year :) I've been craving some better sound q
couple of more Qs

do you need an XFI card
and
if I do need an XFI card, will any of them work?
 
The X-Fi will give you better sound, but the Audigy will work just fine as well. I don't know if any other brands will work with the Creative Theater Cables due to the 3 section jack design.
 
w1retap said:
No. PowerDVD Ultra does full res TrueHD and DTS-HD.
http://www.cyberlink.com/english/products/powerdvd/ultra/audio.jsp
It cannot do it over optical due to bandwidth limitations, therefore must be downsampled. That is the circumstance where obviously it gets downsampled.

Again, when I playback TrueHD audio tracks over analog with the Creative Theater Cables I can go into the audio track info and see in real time the bitrate it is running at (~1.5mbps), and then I can switch back over to DD+ (~640kbps) and notice a difference in sound quality. Please, stop spreading the rumor that one know it all started on AVS forum. Everyone gets suckered into it. If you really do believe it, I'd take it up with Cyberlink in court and you could win yourself a hefty lawsuit.
Click to expand...

What should I be looking for on that page? Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't really see anything that proves your claim. I know they have to downsample for digital connections, but when Cyberlink themselves have admitted to downsampling even analog connections and have issued no press release to state otherwise, I have a hard time accepting it. I mean no disrespect, I would just like to get to the bottom of this and find truth past all the rumors.
 
No, nobody admitted anything. It was an $8 per hour tech in their India email support team that said that many many updates ago. My ears can tell the difference when I switch audio tracks, and it displays the proper bitrate for the lossless track, so certainly it appears to be working just fine. Dozens of other people on HDbits also have the same experience as I, so I'm not a one person wonder. Cyberlink advertises on their website that it fully supports all those audio formats. If you want to take up a legal battle with them, be my guest. I really don't know what your vendetta is, but if you need any further proof than that, it is going to take more time to prove than you could imagine. You'd need software and hardware layer based proof that I doubt they are willing to give out due to copyright and piracy concerns.
 
w1retap said:
No, nobody admitted anything. It was an $8 per hour tech in their India email support team that said that many many updates ago. My ears can tell the difference when I switch audio tracks, and it displays the proper bitrate for the lossless track, so certainly it appears to be working just fine. Dozens of other people on HDbits also have the same experience as I, so I'm not a one person wonder. Cyberlink advertises on their website that it fully supports all those audio formats. If you want to take up a legal battle with them, be my guest. I really don't know what your vendetta is, but if you need any further proof than that, it is going to take more time to prove than you could imagine. You'd need software and hardware layer based proof that I doubt they are willing to give out due to copyright and piracy concerns.
Click to expand...

I don't know anything about an $8 per hour tech in India. This is the last somewhat "official word" I am referring to: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/10/08/powerdvd_ultra_audio_downsampling_explained/1

I have no vendetta in this matter other than just wanting the truth. I want to know because I'd really like to get rid of my RCA HD DVD player and use PowerDVD for my HD DVD playback.
 
As far as I'm concerned, the issue was cleared up or never existed in the first place. He said it was a bug but the AACS doesn't require downsampling. Every indication I as well as dozens of others are getting, we hear the full definition audio, and it is a pretty apparent difference as compared to the DD5.1 tracks of regular DVD's. If you open up the PowerDVD information tab in the config while you are playing back uncompressed audio from an HD DVD, it clearly shows it isn't being down sampled, and it surely doesn't sound like it.
 
w1retap said:
As far as I'm concerned, the issue was cleared up or never existed in the first place. He said it was a bug but the AACS doesn't require downsampling. Every indication I as well as dozens of others are getting, we hear the full definition audio, and it is a pretty apparent difference as compared to the DD5.1 tracks of regular DVD's. If you open up the PowerDVD information tab in the config while you are playing back uncompressed audio from an HD DVD, it clearly shows it isn't being down sampled, and it surely doesn't sound like it.
Click to expand...

Seems reasonable. Thanks for your patience. :)
 
It's worth stickying honestly... very informative for all of us HTPC users who want TrueHD.

I feel like crap that I bought a 5.1 receiver just a few weeks before I heared you'll need a 7.1 receiver for TrueHD. So I'm now on the search for a cheap but good 7.1 AV receiver...........

I'm open for that suggestion too ;)
 
You don't need a 7.1 reciever for TrueHD. Every movie I know of that is out right now on HD DVD is only 5.1 TrueHD at the most.. for the moment. PowerDVD Ultra only has 5.1 output enabled right now, but when movies encoded with 7.1 channels become available, we should see a software update.

But the receiver I went with is the Onkyo TX-SR605. For the money you can't really beat it. 7.1, 2x1 HDMI switcher, plenty of inputs, and overall it is a pretty powerful receiver. I've had no problem with finding enough volume out of it. :p
 
From the AVSForum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892863

PowerDVD Ultra downsamples EVERYTHING. This has been proven and admitted to by Cyberlink Support and Corporate. Even if you are hearing a "difference," there is currently no way to hear unmolested HD audio coming from an HTPC through analog connections or SPDIF (optical OR coaxial) at this time. It has been reported that some of the newer Intel motherboards with built in HDMI solutions may be able to play the full-rate HD audio tracks through PowerDVD. That's it. This has been discussed and tested ad-infinitum on other sites already by very experienced audiophiles, tech company employees and hardware testers.

If there is any new information, AVS might be a good place to start looking for it. I haven't seen, or heard, anything at all to convince me otherwise. I'm SlackerX over on that forum. I was one fo the first people to actually bring this issue up over there and, at first, people thought I was nuts. It wasn't until later that people started to realize what was going on and started bugging Cyberlink about their PowerDVD product. Make no mistake. They have indeed admitted to the downsampling issue. If things have changed in the last few days, please let us know. Many poeple would like it to actually work as it was at first advertised (and, unfortunately, still is to my knowledge).

Edit:

Unfortunately, the only real way to convince yourself of the truth currently is to go out and get an HD DVD or Blu-Ray stand alone player that either decodes and then sends the audio for you over HDMI, SPDIF or analog to your receiver, or sends the full bit-rate unmolested out over HDMI to a receiver that can decode it. I can amlost gaurantee a more palpable difference in that scenario to compare directly against even an HTPC with a high-end sound card...
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
'

hmm interesting info, thxman you've made me a bit happier

so what kind of reciever would take in 5.1 or 7,1 analog signal? do most of them? over a regular 5.1 system, could i hear the difference from dd+ to TrueHD going through the method that you use, or do you have some crazy speaker setup ?
Click to expand...

Many low-end to mid-range receivers from makers like Onkyo, Denon, Harman Kardon, Panasonic, JVC, Sherwood and others will have 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs on the rear of the receiver.

Some people say that they can hear a difference and that even the downsampled audio can sound marginally better than the standard Dolby and DTS tracks, but I can tell you it's not the real thing.
 
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