Asus Xonar HDAV Soundcard to offer TrueHD/DTS Master HD over HDMI 1.3 June-July 08

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http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2008/06/02/computex-2008-psp/1

Article for the lazy (Link has pics)
Asus soundcards
If you’re an AV fanboy with a penchant for Blu-ray, take note now.

Asus says that in the June-July timeframe, it will launch what it claims is the only solution that will let you output 7.1 channel high-definition audio from the likes of Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD with a full bandwidth HDMI 1.3 over HDMI (with HDCP) or LPCM. The Asus Xonar HDAV is going to be (hyped up as) the king of kings when it comes to home theatre PC audio. In fact, the Xonar engineering team claim that it’ll easily beat soundcards even from the likes of industry giant Onkyo – that’s a pretty big claim to make, so we’ll have to see how it stands up over time.

The Xonar HDAV is compatible with XV Colour and Deep Colour standards, and also includes its own Splendid HD Video Processor that will take low resolution video and enhance the colour and sharpness if you feel the need. However, the limitation is that while the soundcard supports all these video enhancements, we still have to wait for graphics cards to support a 36-bit output in order to also adhere to these standards. Asus did mention that since the company now makes graphics products and audio – we could potentially see a Xonar-branded graphics card in the future as well.


The HDAV will ship in two SKUs – Standard and Deluxe. The standard will come with a HDMI input and output, RCA stereo jacks and S/PDIF output, as well as a standard 3.5mm analogue microphone or line-input. The Deluxe will include the additional card to output full 192KHz 7.1 channel LPCM audio from the extra six RCA jacks and all the connectors feature gold plating.

If your audio needs only require stereo sound of the highest quality and a proper microphone input, the Xonar StereoX will also be available in the same timeframe as the HDAV and will feature very similar core features to the HDAV, but now focuses on a more basic set of connectors: RCA stereo sockets, RCA S/PDIF in and out a 2.5” microphone/line-in socket and standard 3.5mm headphone audio jack.
 
Or you can get an ATI 4850/4870 which supports 7.1 HDA
 
The Asus card will be a much more versatile solution. We have yet to see what the ATI cards are capable of--and this is coming from an ATI video card user...
 
RavenZero said:
The Asus card will be a much more versatile solution. We have yet to see what the ATI cards are capable of--and this is coming from an ATI video card user...
Click to expand...

Same thing can be said of the asus sound card.
 
Stoly said:
Or you can get an ATI 4850/4870 which supports 7.1 HDA
Click to expand...

Even if it does, most HT enthusiast would not go that route just because of power/heat/size. Maybe if you do some gaming, but a large majority of HTPC's just play movies/videos...nobody wants a video card that draws more power than the whole rest of the PC when it "idles" when it comes to the HT.

If ATI/AMD really wants to sell a card that does the full HDMI 1.3a spec as a "media card", then it needs to pull less than 20W.
 
Trepidati0n said:
Even if it does, most HT enthusiast would not go that route just because of power/heat/size. Maybe if you do some gaming, but a large majority of HTPC's just play movies/videos...nobody wants a video card that draws more power than the whole rest of the PC when it "idles" when it comes to the HT.

If ATI/AMD really wants to sell a card that does the full HDMI 1.3a spec as a "media card", then it needs to pull less than 20W.
Click to expand...

Well, cost is also a consideration, expect to pay a price premium for the Asus solution. IMO money is better spent on an mid range R700 (a 3950 just surfaced at computex). That way you get 7.1 audio + hardware based decoding. Besides the low wattage can probably be reached via hybrid crossfire.

Upcoming AMD chipsets will also suport HDMI 7.1 audio
 
Trepidati0n said:
If you are thinking of the 8200 series, it still does not do pass through.
Click to expand...

Remember to note that the 8200 series is an Nvidia chipset.

Anyway, the fact is that with the Asus card, if purchasing the Deluxe Edition, you'll get not only the HDMI options, but also the excellent DACs and OpAmps (as well as likely have complete bass management regardless of connection type right through the cards software itself!) that the Asus/Oxygen HD cards are still known for, just in case you'd rather use headphones or use your analog connection for stereo music. You'll still have the ability to get near professional quality audio out of nearly all your applications even if HDMI has problems somewhere in the chain.

It's true that you will likely pay a hefty premium for that edition. I'm expecting initial MSRP to be over $200.00, though it would be great if it's less than that.
 
Less than 20W is an awfully small envelope, but isn't the 3470 rated at 25W peak? I'm pretty sure it is but can't find a link as to the numbers now.

The 3650s are rated at an absolute max of 75W, though I'd be surprised if they pull more than 2/3 of that, so I could see a 3470 being below 20W.

If the 4000 series equivalent occupies a similar power envelope and they have the 7.1 HD audio pass-through (or decoding and PCM 7.1 passthrough) working, then, well, there'd be your card.

Personally I'm very much looking forward to seeing what the Radeon 4000 series looks like.
 
deruberhanyok said:
Less than 20W is an awfully small envelope, but isn't the 3470 rated at 25W peak? I'm pretty sure it is but can't find a link as to the numbers now.

The 3650s are rated at an absolute max of 75W, though I'd be surprised if they pull more than 2/3 of that, so I could see a 3470 being below 20W.

If the 4000 series equivalent occupies a similar power envelope and they have the 7.1 HD audio pass-through (or decoding and PCM 7.1 passthrough) working, then, well, there'd be your card.

Personally I'm very much looking forward to seeing what the Radeon 4000 series looks like.
Click to expand...

For people who what the absolute simplicity of device and connection, this may be true, but you may want to wait and reserve judgment on the card until it's demonstrated its form and function. I'm going to do the same for the Asus card as my philosophy with the devices as well as the connectivity types is don't put all your eggs in one basket...
 
RavenZero said:
Remember to note that the 8200 series is an Nvidia chipset.

Anyway, the fact is that with the Asus card, if purchasing the Deluxe Edition, you'll get not only the HDMI options, but also the excellent DACs and OpAmps (as well as likely have complete bass management regardless of connection type right through the cards software itself!) that the Asus/Oxygen HD cards are still known for, just in case you'd rather use headphones or use your analog connection for stereo music. You'll still have the ability to get near professional quality audio out of nearly all your applications even if HDMI has problems somewhere in the chain.

It's true that you will likely pay a hefty premium for that edition. I'm expecting initial MSRP to be over $200.00, though it would be great if it's less than that.
Click to expand...

DACs and Opamps that will be completely wasted since the audio is transported by hdmi.
 
Stoly said:
I'm not, the 8200 series is nvidia not AMD. AFAIK it does pass through but is limited to 5.1
Click to expand...

You are right, the 8200 series is nVidia. I think I'll go die in a fire now for such a grevious error.

The fact is still, it does not pass through DTS-HD or TrueHD in its fully glory. The 8200 is 95% the way there; which allows 7.1 LPCM, however. Therefore, the HTPC crowd still does not have same the functionality as a CE device. It is sad...it is a limitation, but at least, it now "appears", the new Asus card will finally give us that card. Therefore, for a premium, it might be possible to have an advantage until the 8200 and 780G style boards correct these limitations.

--------

To the other post, the analog outs will be great for people who do not use a receiver. One guy at work does monoblocks.
 
RavenZero said:
It might be a good idea to actually look at the deluxe card before you make a comment--AND read more carefully...

Here's another link that's popped up from the TechReport.com:

http://techreport.com/discussions.x/14856
Click to expand...

DACs and opamps only are useful if you are using analog output, for digital out, the stream is passed directly to the receiver. In other words for HDMI they are useless.
 
Stoly said:
DACs and opamps only are useful if you are using analog output, for digital out, the stream is passed directly to the receiver. In other words for HDMI they are useless.
Click to expand...

And for analog output HDMI is useless...
 
Can't we already get 7.1 analog? So this card will be a complete waste if not for the HDMI.
 
GUYS! The only thing I'm trying to point out here is that this card may be the best of both worlds. Stop snagging onto a single point and look at the big picture. The potential for full HDMI 1.3 capabilities AND has excellent analog output as well. My posts have all been about the overall versatility of the card.

For STOLY specifically, please stop telling everyone in the post what we've already said and what we already know. Go back and read my post and you will see that I had already pointed out that the 8200 chipset was from Nvidia before you even mentioned it. I ALSO said that the possibility of great analog ports was so that there would be MORE OPTIONS for people who didn't want to be limited the HDMI--and in case there were issues with the HDMI connection (which there very well still could be). Having excellent quality analog on the same card will be a great backup in a time when the technology is still young and hardware/software manufacturers are trying to keep up...

THAT's my point--Ya dig? :D
 
RavenZero said:
GUYS! The only thing I'm trying to point out here is that this card may be the best of both worlds. Stop snagging onto a single point and look at the big picture. The potential for full HDMI 1.3 capabilities AND has excellent analog output as well. My posts have all been about the overall versatility of the card.

For STOLY specifically, please stop telling everyone in the post what we've already said and what we already know. Go back and read my post and you will see that I had already pointed out that the 8200 chipset was from Nvidia before you even mentioned it. I ALSO said that the possibility of great analog ports was so that there would be MORE OPTIONS for people who didn't want to be limited the HDMI--and in case there were issues with the HDMI connection (which there very well still could be). Having excellent quality analog on the same card will be a great backup in a time when the technology is still young and hardware/software manufacturers are trying to keep up...

THAT's my point--Ya dig? :D
Click to expand...

So you think its the best of both worlds... good for you. I disagree and I've explained why. I think money is better spent on a video card with hdmi 1.3.

Everyone has different needs, tastes and budgets. As you've pointed out what seems like a great card for you is a waste of money for me.
 
Stoly said:
So you think its the best of both worlds... good for you. I disagree and I've explained why. I think money is better spent on a video card with hdmi 1.3.

Everyone has different needs, tastes and budgets. As you've pointed out what seems like a great card for you is a waste of money for me.
Click to expand...

Glad we got that straight. It was wearing on me. :D
 
and more from Anandtech..
http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=3328
As reported earlier, this card will be the first and only audio hardware released for the personal computer that has the ability to fully output uncompressed 7.1 channel, 24-bit/192kHz LPCM or bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD. ASUS, with assistance from C-Media and ArcSoft, has been able to adhere to the PAPS and AACS content schemes without having to downmix the audio sources (resulting in 16-bit/48kHz DVD quality audio) or even dropping support for DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD altogether.
Click to expand...
 
Stoly said:
So you think its the best of both worlds... good for you. I disagree and I've explained why. I think money is better spent on a video card with hdmi 1.3.
Click to expand...

Here is the skinny though...right now the Sonar is the only hardware "item" that is going to gurantee it. Even the people at AVS are still in the "hope" mode. Even the 790 and the 9200 are talking about it but neither of them are flat out stating HD bit stream.

Time will tell.
 
Trepidati0n said:
Here is the skinny though...right now the Sonar is the only hardware "item" that is going to gurantee it. Even the people at AVS are still in the "hope" mode. Even the 790 and the 9200 are talking about it but neither of them are flat out stating HD bit stream.

Time will tell.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Some people read.
 
Well the good news is that for the 2nd half of the year there will be plenty of choices for HDMI 1.3, be it sound cards, video cards or integrated chipsets.
 
Stoly said:
Or you can get an ATI 4850/4870 which supports 7.1 HDA
Click to expand...

LOL... way to do your homework. /sarcasm

The ATI cards will do downsampled 7.1 LPCM, since PowerDVD will molest the LPCM from the source and turn around and spit out 16bit/48khz plus latency due to the processing. No thanks.
 
And the problem with the xonar HDAV is you have to use the bundled arcsoft software to get True HD/DTS HD. And that app doesn't support .mkv(they say it does, but it refuses to play) and if you use it with media center and you use mymovies it will overwrite mymovies.

That makes this card unusable to me.

The ATI cards have their own limitations as you have pointed out. So that leaves the Intel G45 or the Auzentech card which will work with a bundled version of PowerDVD. Word is it won't be downsampled.
 
Sounds to me like the problem is more in PowerDVD's implementation of LPCM output?
 
deruberhanyok said:
Sounds to me like the problem is more in PowerDVD's implementation of LPCM output?
Click to expand...

No, LPCM output is downsampled because it has to be. The AACS Licensing Administrator requires it for any device that does not have a protected audio path.

As for the whole HDMI sound card vs video card debate, even with the bitstream output issues aside, I think it's worth considering your upgrade path when making such a purchase. Technological advances in sound cards are infrequent; a HDMI 1.3-compatible sound card is likely to last you for quite some time, but a video card will not, as they run on a 6-month cycle. When it comes time to upgrade your video card again, do you really want to be limited to only the ones with 7.1 LPCM over HDMI? The next time around, the cards with those features might not be as good a value as the 4850.
 
Archer75 said:
And the problem with the xonar HDAV is you have to use the bundled arcsoft software to get True HD/DTS HD. And that app doesn't support .mkv(they say it does, but it refuses to play) and if you use it with media center and you use mymovies it will overwrite mymovies.
Click to expand...

Obviously the whole bitstreaming audio issue is a big source of confusion. Also, the reason the commercial software player companies don't cater (at least officially) to the MKV container is because they realize 99.99% of Bluray movies transcoded to MKV are from pirated sources (ie P2P/usenet). If you care about MKV playback though you don't even need an external player like TMT or PDVD for bitstreaming audio anyway. That's a whole other subject.

I am a heavy duty user of latest MyMovies on Vista and Arcsoft TMT actually happens to work well with it at the moment for Bluray playback, so I'm not sure I understand your statement it 'overwrites' (overrides?) mymovies. You can simply disassociate .MKV from using TMT if thats your issue. They'll play natively inside VMC by simply having ffdshow or CoreAVC + Haali.

Archer75 said:
The ATI cards have their own limitations as you have pointed out. So that leaves the Intel G45 or the Auzentech card which will work with a bundled version of PowerDVD. Word is it won't be downsampled.
Click to expand...

G45 will have bitstreaming as soon as one of the software player companies makes a PAP arrangement with Intel. G45 already has PAVP/ PAP built into IGP. Until then it will be downsampled LPCM whether we're talking TMT or PDVD. I suspect Arcsoft will be first to support bitstreaming with G45 chipset in TMT - they seem to be a hungrier company that Cyberlink in terms of development pace. Intel being the heavyweight they are with a fresh new chipset aimed at HTPC's pretty much guarantees Cyberlink and Arcsoft BOTH want to get PAP working with Intel.

Auzen's card will probably not come until Q4 of this year (regardless of their "september" promise) and by then people will already be doing bitstreaming and it won't be as big a deal. The first solution to do bitstreaming will make the headlines (likely Asus Xonar HDAV).

Auric said:
No, LPCM output is downsampled because it has to be. The AACS Licensing Administrator requires it for any device that does not have a protected audio path.

As for the whole HDMI sound card vs video card debate, even with the bitstream output issues aside, I think it's worth considering your upgrade path when making such a purchase. Technological advances in sound cards are infrequent; a HDMI 1.3-compatible sound card is likely to last you for quite some time, but a video card will not, as they run on a 6-month cycle. When it comes time to upgrade your video card again, do you really want to be limited to only the ones with 7.1 LPCM over HDMI? The next time around, the cards with those features might not be as good a value as the 4850.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%, especially if you won't be using the card for gaming. Right now I've got a couple of Intel G45 based boards on pre-order (microATX and mini-ITX versions), and if there's no announcements with a software player company for G45 bitstreaming audio support when the Asus Xonar comes out, I'll probably get the Asus card while I wait.

√ My 48 Terabyte Media Server Build Log
√ Official Intel G45 DG45FC mini-ITX HTPC Motherboard Thread
√ Official Intel G45 DG45ID microATX HTPC Motherboard Thread
 
"I am a heavy duty user of latest MyMovies on Vista and Arcsoft TMT actually happens to work well with it at the moment for Bluray playback, so I'm not sure I understand your statement it 'overwrites' (overrides?) mymovies."

The my movies menu option vanishes from VMC with TMT installed. I can get it back, or it says I can when I choose the option to restore the entry, but it doesn't work.
I need to use the codecs from some player in order to get HA. But I also want to get the best audio possible.
 
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