Mozilla + Firefox + Thunderbird?.. Anything better please.

shade91 · Jul 4, 2004

I've installed this browser on about 5 machines at work as well as on my machines at home.

The 5 users at work are general power users (meaning you would never catch them asking some of the nonsense that people here ask). I respect their opinions so I used them as my test bed. Anyway.. When one of them comes back and tells me that he gets an error when trying to load an executable from the browser itself (instead of saving to disk) I begin to wonder what the hell were the developers thinking when they focused on security and went completely oblivious of basic functionality. I asked their thoughts on basic features as well as plug-in support. One mentioned how it must be a pain in the ass to deploy this on a large scale when you end up with different versions listed in your "Add/Remove" software section. Uninstall then reinstall? Unacceptable. Another mentioned how much of a pain in the ass it is to keep plug-ins in order. "I already have them installed under IE, why do I have to go searching for them again for this browser? Why no auto-install like before?"

My wife browses the web at home heavily for business research. I came home to find Mozilla (and firefox) both uninstalled. I asked what the problem was. Her reply? "Initial load is slower than IE and page loading is even worse. I'll take my chances with swiss-cheese (IE)."

Opera any lighter/better? This is a joke. I'm thinking I'll stay with IE as well (considering I've been using it since 2.0 and have never had an exploit dropped on me.). I'll make sure I don't go to sites like http://www.w00tl33tjuarezmanghitthisupnowanddownloadallthisfreesoftware.com.

I don't know about Thunderbird either. I need a friggin plug-in to be able to scan all my folders at once? What's so friggin hard about getting the basic functionality in there? How about profile support? What a pain in the butt to have to log on to another XP profile so my wife can check her email without working her way through mine to find hers. Much much easier with profiles like MS Outlook.

XOR != OR · Jul 4, 2004

Heh...I like this. Especially this comment:

I begin to wonder what the hell were the developers thinking when they focused on security and went completely oblivious of basic functionality

Trust me, if you think this is basic funtionality, you might want to get someone to scan your computer and remove all the spyware and crap that is very likely installed.

1) It is fucking stupid to run executables from the web through the web browser. Now, if we are talking intranet, it drops it down to fucking moronic.

2) firefox and thunderbird are beta. Did ya miss that? It's the 0. before the version number that gives it away. Therefore, if you decide to deploy it in a professional enviroment, you do so at your own risk.

3) firefox does have auto update and autoplugin support ( new to .9x ). I haven't used it a great deal, so I couldn't tell you much about it, but it is there

Further, if you want to blame someone for having multiple version of the same plugin for different browsers, blame MS. They could have developed a standard way to share plugins between browsers, and being the dominate market player, that is ( in my opinion ) their responsibility.

4) initial load with Moz, fine, I agree with that. Firefox pops right up tho. Page loads being slower: bullshit. Something is wrong with your moz install.

Honestly, complaints like this make me sad. We have a world of people like you, who think running executables from a web browser is "ok", that we have to overcome before we can even dream of having decent security.

CrimandEvil · Jul 4, 2004

I have to totally agree with XOR != OR. Ease of use does not make something better, my 10 year old sister has figured out how to use FireFox in just a few second...what does that say of you. LOL (I do hope you realize that was a joke- but she has BTW

)

When one of them comes back and tells me that he gets an error when trying to load an executable from the browser itself (instead of saving to disk) I begin to wonder what the hell were the developers thinking when they focused on security and went completely oblivious of basic functionality.

Dude thats like opening the barn doors and letting the perverts f*** the cows.

Totally noob.

eloj · Jul 4, 2004

I give this troll "3 stars" for effort, but it's a little too obvious. Especially the sarcastic use of "power user" is a dead give-away.

shade91 · Jul 5, 2004

XOR != OR said:
Heh...I like this. Especially this comment:
Trust me, if you think this is basic funtionality, you might want to get someone to scan your computer and remove all the spyware and crap that is very likely installed.

Want a copy of my clean Spybot/NOD32 logs? I'll gladly smack you upside the head with them any day of the week.

1) It is fucking stupid to run executables from the web through the web browser. Now, if we are talking intranet, it drops it down to fucking moronic.

I guess the programmers of Mozilla are 'fucking stupid' for allowing users the choice of this.

2) firefox and thunderbird are beta. Did ya miss that? It's the 0. before the version number that gives it away. Therefore, if you decide to deploy it in a professional enviroment, you do so at your own risk.

Basic functionality, please! I prefer to see one "Remove" in Add/Remove applications rather than 4! (0.9, 0.91, etc, etc). Is it that hard?

. Uninstalling one of them screws up the entire browser requiring removal of them all then reinstallation of the browser.

3) firefox does have auto update and autoplugin support ( new to .9x ). I haven't used it a great deal, so I couldn't tell you much about it, but it is there

Refer to #2. This sure as hell doesn't mitigate the previous problem.

4) initial load with Moz, fine, I agree with that. Firefox pops right up tho. Page loads being slower: bullshit. Something is wrong with your moz install.

. I downloaded it from mozilla.org and installed it. There's more to it than that? LOL.

Honestly, complaints like this make me sad. We have a world of people like you, who think running executables from a web browser is "ok", that we have to overcome before we can even dream of having decent security.

Tell that to my boss. He's worth more than everyone on this site combined x 100. When he comes to me saying "So tell me about these different browsers I'm reading about in the news" and I have to explain little things like this and tell him "Oh your Mozilla installation must have gone that is why things load slower" I'm going to get a loud "Get this shit off my fucking laptop, NOW".

Believe me. I'm not the nitpicker here. When I have pages and pages of complaints about "a better replacement for internet explorer" I'm better off teaching my users common sense with using IE.

I guess next time I'll keep my questions and comments for the more educated crowd at my university. Too many wannabe newbs thinking they're "[H]ard"

.

ictrlu · Jul 5, 2004

You come in here with accusing tone...like it's anyone's fault in here that you can't get it to work. Works perfectly for me. I don't know what you're problem is.

The 5 users at work are general power users (meaning you would never catch them asking some of the nonsense that people here ask). I respect their opinions so I used them as my test bed. Anyway.. When one of them comes back and tells me that he gets an error when trying to load an executable from the browser itself (instead of saving to disk) I begin to wonder what the hell were the developers thinking when they focused on security and went completely oblivious of basic functionality.

Please...does that even sound right to you? Who the hell runs exe's from the browser? Saving it to your hdd is just too much trouble i guess. I'm trying to think what they would even be trying to run from the browser...they were probably going to all their fav spyware sites to install all the toolbars, pretty mouse cursors, and smiley faces for their email.

One mentioned how it must be a pain in the ass to deploy this on a large scale when you end up with different versions listed in your "Add/Remove" software section. Uninstall then reinstall? Unacceptable.

I have one instance of it in my add/remove. If you can't uninstall/reinstall a BETA piece of software, which takes all of 5 minutes tops, then just use IE. Thats the easy way out. Don't bitch about your inadequacies. Just lie to them and tell them IE is still the best.

Another mentioned how much of a pain in the ass it is to keep plug-ins in order. "I already have them installed under IE, why do I have to go searching for them again for this browser? Why no auto-install like before?"

If this is a pain in the ass, then your users are borderline retarded. I don't know exactly what plug ins you're referring to but it's a pretty simple procedure. Take Flash for instance, download it...double click it. WOW. That is hard. I didn't even have to reinstall Flash when I upgraded from 0.8 to 0.9.1. Why on earth you would just expect it to work with plugins you've installed for IE is beyond me. They are two different pieces of software. How the hell did you get this job anyway?

eloj is more than likely right about this being bs, but I was bored.

artimasz · Jul 5, 2004

I wonder what your boss' money and this has related? There isn't any. However, with your paticular dilema, wouldn't you want an all in one solution like Opera 7.5? It's only like 29 bucks, and if your working for a very rich man, he should be able to afford a business class solution ~ something other then open source Firefox beta software; it's almost like using aol as a standard mail solution...

Saving/Open downloads to Disc isn't really a security concern in and of itself as you pointed out, why would they include the option? Maybe the IT folks at your place put restictions on opening certain extentions or something, that can be done.

CrimandEvil · Jul 5, 2004

Wait, so you installed both .9 and .91 of FF and now your wondering why uninstall one fucks up the other?

rhy7s · Jul 5, 2004

Re: page loads I cannot understand the reports of faster page loads in IE, I have been using Firefox since pescadero and rendering speed in every iteration has been noticeably faster than IE (on 98, 2000 & XP). A lot of this due to the psychological but definite real world benefit of incremental loading of progressive *.jpeg and interlaced *.gif, *.png and css page layouts. When IE does deign to attempt a progressive load it does not use the whole image frame to do so (wipe rather than dissolve) which is certainly not useful when your on dialup wait times. Also the annoying page refresh when it doesn't get the first render right whereupon you lose focus. Very obtrusive and single task oriented approach to new windows makes research or general browsing from multiple sources a nightmare of micro-management.

Edit: Use the *.zip archive if you don't want to deal with the messy changes between installers thus far encountered, it seems weird that you're annoyed about double entries in Add/Remove Programs though when the user didn't use it's routine to remove it in the first place.

ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/

XOR != OR · Jul 5, 2004

shade91 said:
Want a copy of my clean Spybot/NOD32 logs? I'll gladly smack you upside the head with them any day of the week.

Actually, yes. Send them to skennedy@tpno.org

I guess the programmers of Mozilla are 'fucking stupid' for allowing users the choice of this.

Actually, yes. For giving that option, they are. Ask me about how much I love profiles.

Basic functionality, please! I prefer to see one "Remove" in Add/Remove applications rather than 4! (0.9, 0.91, etc, etc). Is it that hard? . Uninstalling one of them screws up the entire browser requiring removal of them all then reinstallation of the browser.

This is your problem, not the browsers. For not understanding how programs are installed and uninstalled. Can't blame Moz for your own inadequacies.

Refer to #2. This sure as hell doesn't mitigate the previous problem.

Did you miss where I said they are BETA? You'd have to be a fucking moron to deploy these on a professional level, AND not expect problems. Personally, I run ff and tb on my network here at work ( 50 stations, 70 users ), and aside from the occational problem, I've been happy with the results. And here's the beautiful part: When my boss comes to me and askes about this latest IE bug, and how can we protect against it, I smile and tell him there is nothing to worry about.

. I downloaded it from mozilla.org and installed it. There's more to it than that? LOL.

Then, logically, there is something wrong with your workstations' install of windows. Installed them yourself, did you?

Tell that to my boss. He's worth more than everyone on this site combined x 100.

Name dropping without the names? For the record, the ex-CEOs of enron are probably worth more, and they were fucking morons.

When he comes to me saying "So tell me about these different browsers I'm reading about in the news" and I have to explain little things like this and tell him "Oh your Mozilla installation must have gone that is why things load slower" I'm going to get a loud "Get this shit off my fucking laptop, NOW".

And you don't tell him about how IE can sniff your sensitve, ssl encrypted details and send them to a remote, untrusted and unknown machine, simply by visiting a web page? What dept do you work for, anyway? Marketting?

Believe me. I'm not the nitpicker here. When I have pages and pages of complaints about "a better replacement for internet explorer" I'm better off teaching my users common sense with using IE.

See, that's the problem with IE. Common sense only works so far, but when the browser will silently execute code on it's own, you are screwed.

I guess next time I'll keep my questions and comments for the more educated crowd at my university. Too many wannabe newbs thinking they're "[H]ard" .

Ya huh. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

btw, do you know something that the DoD ( I think ) does not? They ( or a similar agency, too lazy to really look it up to be honest. You aren't worth the effort ) recommended staying way from IE recently. So either they don't know what they are talking about, or you don't.

First person with the right guess gets a cookie.

XOR != OR · Jul 5, 2004

Just for giggles:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2103152/

I usually don't worry about PC viruses, but last week's Scob attack snapped me awake. The clever multi-stage assault, carried out by alleged Russian spam crime lords, infiltrated corporate Web servers and then used them to infect home computers. The software that Scob (also known as Download.ject) attempted to install on its victims' machines included a keystroke logger.

In less than a day, Internet administrators sterilized the infection by shutting down the Russian server that hosted the spyware. But not before a barrage of scary reports had circled the world. "Users are being told to avoid using Internet Explorer until Microsoft patches a serious security hole," the BBC warned. (Disclosure: Microsoft owns Slate.) CNET reporter Robert Lemos zeroed in on why the attack was so scary. "This time," he wrote, "the flaws affect every user of Internet Explorer." That's about 95 percent of all Net users. No matter how well they had protected themselves against viruses, spyware, and everything else in the past, they were still vulnerable to yet another flaw in Microsoft's browser.

Scob didn't get me, but it was enough to make me ditch Explorer in favor of the much less vulnerable Firefox browser. Firefox is built and distributed free by the Mozilla Organization, a small nonprofit corporation spun off last year from the fast-fading remnants of Netscape, which was absorbed by AOL in 1999. Firefox development and testing are mostly done by about a dozen Mozilla employees, plus a few dozen others at companies like IBM, Sun, and Red Hat. I've been using it for a week now, and I've all but forgotten about Explorer.

Go ahead, do your boss ( who must be important, seeing how he's worth so much ) and your company a disservice by recommending IE as the default browser.

CrimandEvil · Jul 5, 2004

btw, do you know something that the DoD ( I think ) does not? They ( or a similar agency, too lazy to really look it up to be honest. You aren't worth the effort ) recommended staying way from IE recently. So either they don't know what they are talking about, or you don't.

Actually it was US-CERT (and here)
"due to "significant vulnerabilities" in technologies included in IE."
What I find funny is when an MS owned site recommends FF

Basic functionality, please! I prefer to see one "Remove" in Add/Remove applications rather than 4! (0.9, 0.91, etc, etc). Is it that hard? . Uninstalling one of them screws up the entire browser requiring removal of them all then reinstallation of the browser.

Gee thats funny since I see only one listing in mine, maybe thats because I only installed it once

Name dropping without the names? For the record, the ex-CEOs of enron are probably worth more, and they were fucking morons

My last boss earned much more then I did yet knew nothing but in his defense he did know atleast how to open apps and run them

He opened an email attachment that crashed our servers for a few weeks, oh BTW he was my boss when I worked for the Boulder Valley School District, I quit before that and he's still working there. He was using IE when he did that, the schools that I worked at I had switched over to FF but just goes to show how one weak link in a chain.....

CrimandEvil · Jul 5, 2004

Wow, I just took a look at the GenSoft page and sheer number of IE related problems make me glad that I use FF.Not to mention the fact that the [H] frontpage has posted a blurb about another worm...yet again.

Leadman584 · Jul 5, 2004

Installed Firefox today. Though cable was quick using IE, till I installed this browser, isntantaneous is a better description now. I've resisted fo quite awhile, but the last straw, was [H]ardOCP "page not found" using IE.

Luthorcrow · Jul 5, 2004

I switched today as well. I had tried several versions of Mozilla and Firefox prior but the feel just wasn't right. Mozilla still has too crowded of an interface. Version 0.9.1 was the first that felt right.

For me what made the difference are the increase in the number of good extensions. I would consider the following must have and should be or something similar in the final build:

1) Single window. This was the feature that was missing from Opera, Mozilla and Firefox that kept me away. Tabed browsing is great but not when links open in a new window rather a new tab. Kills the whole point of the interface.

2) All-In-One Jestures. Unlike other mouse jestures I have used in other browsers this one create a red line showing how your mouse moved. Great for training yourself on how to use the jestures. Good user feedback.

3) Super Drag and Go

4) Sort Bookmarks. Another complaint in the pas was the lack of the ability to easily sort by A-Z. Nice global feature.

5) Stumbleupon. Ya, it is not unique to Firefox but is still a cool toy.

I guess the biggest thumbs up I can give for newest build and extensions is that I finally got my wife to us another browser other than IE. Will save me time in the future of having to deal with malware on here machine (a reduction at least I hope with the lack of activeX).

CrimandEvil · Jul 5, 2004

Single window.

You could always use the "Tabbrowser Extension" to do this since as far back as I can remember.

Click to expand...

unhappy_mage · Jul 5, 2004

in response to the top post, unless you like nutscrape, use firefox or ie but don't bitch about ff yet because it's beta. when it hits 1.0 then you have a valid complaint.
to add to the list of extensions you can't live without, i add miniT. it allows you to drag tabs into a different order, so you can sort out your hardforums tabs from everything else. also lets you do mousewheel to switch tabs left/right. my one most important extension. clicking on tabs is so 2003.

in case you missed it, stop bitching about firefox. if you don't think it's better than ie, ok. just don't bitch about that being a security risk.

Luthorcrow · Jul 5, 2004

Thanks!

As for email. I have tried Pegasus, Eudora and Thunderbird. Pegasus GUI was too bloated. Thunderbird is seeming more straight forward to use than Eudora and I like the option of having multiple profiles open in one window.

Leadman584 · Jul 5, 2004

My darn bookmarks are tabs, my fault not firefox's. Awesome browser. Assume you are speaking to an idiot(not far from the truth, only sent 3 E-mails in 5 years), and explain in small words (ok, maybe not that small), how do I get a single dropdown menu of bookmarks (like favorites in IE) ? Toolbars full of tabs is annoying, on the plus side they do load in under a second. Unless I can get the word on a single dropdown, may wind up with more toolbars than viewing area. My ignorance does not bode well for upcoming forray into Gentoo. Not afraid to ask, or take criticism. In my defense, I'm over 40, and did enough drugs in the past to kill all of the brain cells of 2 or 3 normal people. Please help with the browser issue. I'll bug the folks over in Software with my Gentoo screw ups. Got over 6000 pages of Linux manuals to misinterpret......lol.

Leadman584 · Jul 6, 2004

Nevermind, got it. New question. Why does the [H]ardOCP site now have a red [H] in front of the black one? DC guys were screwing around with ranks, is this related? Noobie folder here, can't have gotten far in 2 weeks. Only 37wu with 1900 pts.

mosin · Jul 6, 2004

I like Poco better than any other mail client, but I'm not a cheapskate.

As for the strange opinion of people that IE is best? Go figure.

I get the uneasy feeling that this is a Firefox/Opera place.

XOR != OR · Jul 6, 2004

mosin said:
I get the uneasy feeling that this is a Firefox/Opera place.

More accurately: It's a non-IE place. Although most people here, I'd imagine, still use IE. Go figure.

Mozilla + Firefox + Thunderbird?.. Anything better please.

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