Power Supplies for Today's & Tomorrows Computers

tonyou said:
Hi David, it appears the cross loading requirement of Silverstone's ST65ZF is no worse than OCZ's Powerstream 600W, which you recommended:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/2005_eternal_battle_day3/page5.asp
Click to expand...
Good Find, Thanks!

Please provide more information & links if you can, as I would really like to be able to recommend this PSU.

We know it can handel heavy loads, including dual-CPUs, with SLI & a dozen HDD's.
The question is what happens when the PC has full out SLI, but very little else (1-HDD, 1-Optical).

We need a few more of what you just found!

Thanks,
Dave ;)
 
Kind of nice list but it seems rather redundant to computerpor3's.....and a LOT harder to read. If this stays at least kill the rainbow nation color scheme. And kill that Hiper.

Edit: and a little sad not to see the SuperFlower Plug-N's at least snag a mention on the modular list. ;)
 
Spectre said:
Kind of nice list but it seems rather redundant to computerpor3's.....and a LOT harder to read. If this stays at least kill the rainbow nation color scheme. And kill that Hiper.
Click to expand...
What don't you like about Hiper? :confused:
 
Solution to PSU's with "crossload issues....":

Don't use with motherboards that regulate CPU voltage wuth the 5V rail.

The OCZ Powerstream 520 and 600W and the Silverstone ST65ZF and the Ultra X-Connect 500W, to only name a handful, all have crazy crossload side effects.... but I find if the PSU is used in an environment where the CPU is 12V regulated (like any Pentium 4 and any Athlon 64) there's next to no crossload issues. If used with a PCI express video card, crossload issues are non-existant.

Example of how a Powerstream 520W acts when crossloaded with a high 5V load: http://www.slcentral.com/ocz-powerstream-520adj-power-supply/powerstream.mov
 
Spectre said:
We have no real data on it....at all.
Click to expand...
They are getting rave reviews in the UK/EU as a "Best Bang for the Buck" at under 50#'s.
I have yet to find any negative informaton about the Hiper Type R's.

Dave ;)

jonnyGURU said:
Solution to PSU's with "crossload issues....":

Don't use with motherboards that regulate CPU voltage wuth the 5V rail.

The OCZ Powerstream 520 and 600W and the Silverstone ST65ZF and the Ultra X-Connect 500W, to only name a handful, all have crazy crossload side effects.... but I find if the PSU is used in an environment where the CPU is 12V regulated (like any Pentium 4 and any Athlon 64) there's next to no crossload issues. If used with a PCI express video card, crossload issues are non-existant.

Example of how a Powerstream 520W acts when crossloaded with a high 5V load: http://www.slcentral.com/ocz-powerstream-520adj-power-supply/powerstream.mov
Click to expand...
I wish it was that simple!

Discussed here: http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=165219
 
davidhammock200 said:
They are getting rave reviews in the UK/EU as a "Best Bang for the Buck" at under 50#'s.
I have yet to find any negative informaton about the Hiper Type R's.
Click to expand...

Can you point me towards one where it was tested properly? I have seen none.
 
Do you have first hand experience with the Silverstone (or a link that demonstrates the crossload symptoms other than the mix/max quote from Dealsonic's website?)

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean that as a rhetorical question. I'm ALWAYS open to people enlightening me, because I'm not the brightest bulb in the box. Just one with access to a lot of components and tools and a good deal of God given curiosity.

I ask because IMHO; 10 or 15A on the 5V isn't really all too much, and 30 to 38A on the 12V is really quite high.

Certainly the 12V capability of the Silverstone is high, but the "IDE" power rail is 8A. Not likely you'll maintain an 8A load on that rail. The 2x2 connector actually SHARES it's load between the 12V1 and 12V2 which have a maximum capacity of 13 and 18A respectively. The only other thing using the 12V2 is SATA, so there's not going to be that much more load in it. And then you have 12V3 supplying power to the ATX connector. 16A.

Not to say that the crossload side-effects aren't hellacious when the 12V rail is loaded up way out of ratio with the 5V, but the odds that the 12V is going to be loaded up to even close as it's maximum is just unrealistic. In other words; the power supply is way overkill for most any system.

Example: I have one of these PSU's but I'm having problems loading all four rails at the same time. I can load the extra two rails with resistors, but I want to buy a Fluke 336 so I can get an accurate amperage reading off the load before I document anything.

I can maintain a load on the 12V1 and 12V3 all of the way up to 13A and 16A and put only 10A on the 5V rail, and the PSU is perfectly stable. 13A and 16A on two 12V rails alone is more than most average dual rail power supplies. Naturally, loading up the 12V2 and 12V4 will probably throw the voltages into a crossload tail spin, but what is the likely hood that you will have a total load of 348W or more across all four rails?

If the load is significantly greater due to a bunch of drives, cards, etc. I would think that the 5V would go up with the 12V.

I'm going to go ahead and load it up again with the same 12V load and only an 8A load on the 5V and see what happens. Likewise, I'm going to put a mere 10A + 10A load on the two 12V's and load the 5V all of the way up to 20A. I'll report back with what I find. ;)
 
Spectre said:
Can you point me towards one where it was tested properly? I have seen none.
Click to expand...

Yeah.. I've only seen the Hexus and PimpRig reviews (can't understand the Polish one) and both of those sites LOVE the Ultra X-Connect... so clearly they're totally discredited. :D Right? ;)

I have GOT TO GET my hands on one of these. ASI sold some TypeR cold cathodes (I actually have one of the blue ones.) I need to find out if they have a contact with Ritec and if scoring a PSU is a possibility since the FrozenCPU listing is apparently a pipe-dream. :(
 
jonnyGURU said:
Yeah.. I've only seen the Hexus and PimpRig reviews (can't understand the Polish one) and both of those sites LOVE the Ultra X-Connect... so clearly they're totally discredited. :D Right? ;)
Click to expand...

I now you know the real reason but for the folks watching they are totally discredited because of the methodology.
 
Johnny,

My "BIG" consern with the Silverstone is a "maxed-out" SLI video pulling +12V@30A+
on an otherwise undemanding PC with almost no +5V load, say 1HDD & 1 Optical.

Please post your research as I would truly love to be able to recommend this PSU.

Thanks,
Dave ;)

EDIT:

Check the dates on the X-Connect reviews, if they were pre-2005, then its not the reviewer's fault.
 
Spectre said:
I now you know the real reason but for the folks watching they are totally discredited because of the methodology.
Click to expand...

Just my unrelenting sarcasm coming out. That's all. ;)

Dave: Coming up. I just need to rant about by VW Jetta P.O.S. on another forum while the power supply "burns in" a bit (I like to test them "warmed up.")
 
jonnyGURU said:
Just my unrelenting sarcasm coming out. That's all. ;)
Click to expand...

I know I just am trying to move past the dead bleeding horse back there ;)
 
12V1 = 14A

12V3 = 16A

5V = 8A

3.3V = 6A

Results:

12V1 = 11.8 (Keep in mind that 14A is out of spec for this rail.)

12V2 = 11.84

5V = 5.11

3.3V = 3.31

Total wattage: 431.1. No bounce (see video linked earlier) at all. Everything in spec.

Next test coming up after 11.....

EDIT: Started to get some voltage bounce of about .01V, but it was on the -12V, so I'm disregarding it.
 
12V1 = 10A

12V2 = 10A

5V = 20A

3.3V = 10A

Results:

12V1 = 12.22

12V2 = 12.24

5V = 4.89

3.3V = 3.31

As you can see, the 5V drops and the 12V shoots up.

Pretty much what I expected because I see this whenever I see a PSU with a 12V rail with combined wattage capability greater on the 12V than on the 3.3V + 5V combined. But still within spec.

Any suggestions and I'll mix the loads up some more. Whatever anyone wants to try....
 
Spectre said:
Can you point me towards one where it was tested properly? I have seen none.
Click to expand...

Ok. The conversation you were having with Oaklahoma Wolf appears to be on the right track. I just talked to a buddy in Taiwan and he said that Focus/Fore Point and Super Flower are one in the same.

Makes sense. Even without seeing the inside of the PSU, if you look at how the modular cables are grouped, it lines up with the modular interface card of a Mad Dog or Superflower almost perfectly.

I'm just impressed that Focus advertises a 650W with a 420W combined rail capability! :eek:
 
jonnyGURU said:
Ok. The conversation you were having with Oaklahoma Wolf appears to be on the right track. I just talked to a buddy in Taiwan and he said that Focus/Fore Point and Super Flower are one in the same.

Makes sense. Even without seeing the inside of the PSU, if you look at how the modular cables are grouped, it lines up with the modular interface card of a Mad Dog or Superflower almost perfectly.

I'm just impressed that Focus advertises a 650W with a 420W combined rail capability! :eek:
Click to expand...
You are not refering to the Hiper Type R's, I hope? :( :confused:

EDIT:

Please leave the +12V rails & reduce the +5V rail in 1A stages down to 4A, if both the +12V rails hold,
then we can recommend this one & I'll give you full credit (you have earned it-thanks).

12V1 = 14A

12V3 = 16A

5V = 8A (*7*6*5*4)

3.3V = 6A
 
davidhammock200 said:
You are not refering to the Hiper Type R's, I hope? :( :confused:
Click to expand...

Yeah. Why the frownie face? Superflower makes a good unit.

EDIT:

Please leave the +12V rails & reduce the +5V rail in 1A stages down to 4A, if both the +12V rails hold,
then we can recommend this one & I'll give you full credit (you have earned it-thanks).

12V1 = 14A

12V3 = 16A

5V = 8A (*7*6*5*4)

3.3V = 6A
Click to expand...

Ok. When I get back home I'll do that and log the results.....

FYI: I think SunMoon changed their name to TechRed. Take a look for TechRed SM-368: http://techred.com/en Look familiar?

If anyone here can translate Norweigen, I think we have another good review site! ;) http://overklokking.no/art.php?artikkelid=16809

EDIT: Aargh! It looks like he does his load tests in "Watts" and doesn't disclose amperage loads per rail, so cross-loads side effects aren't disclosed: http://overklokking.no/art.php?artikkelid=16766&side=4 :(
 
jonnyGURU said:
Ok. The conversation you were having with Oaklahoma Wolf appears to be on the right track. I just talked to a buddy in Taiwan and he said that Focus/Fore Point and Super Flower are one in the same.

Makes sense. Even without seeing the inside of the PSU, if you look at how the modular cables are grouped, it lines up with the modular interface card of a Mad Dog or Superflower almost perfectly.

I'm just impressed that Focus advertises a 650W with a 420W combined rail capability! :eek:
Click to expand...

Cool. I knew that list of UL numbers I keep would come in handy one day. It may well be a decent unit then.....but until it is tested I am still not sold on it......

The one gut shot Isaw of it from one of the reviews looked a good bit sloppier than the SuperFlower build. Guess different specs were ordered for each unit.
 
Spectre said:
Cool. I knew that list of UL numbers I keep would come in handy one day. It may well be a decent unit then.....but until it is tested I am still not sold on it......

The one gut shot Isaw of it from one of the reviews looked a good bit sloppier than the SuperFlower build. Guess different specs were ordered for each unit.
Click to expand...

Do you still have a link to that "gut shut?"

I'm curious because features like active PFC and dual rails (something the Hiper has that some other Superflowers don't) require added PCB's that have additional leads going to and from them, etc.

I'm wondering if that's what the extra "slop" is.
 
jonnyGURU said:
Do you still have a link to that "gut shut?"

I'm curious because features like active PFC and dual rails (something the Hiper has that some other Superflowers don't) require added PCB's that have additional leads going to and from them, etc.

I'm wondering if that's what the extra "slop" is.
Click to expand...

I might have the files stored on one of the other boxes here. Let me check.

There are some here at Pimprig:
http://reviews.pimprig.com/power_supply/hiper_type-r_modular_580w_psu.php?page=3

I can't find the pic's I had stored......I know I have more. I'll look.
 
Found open shots at Pimp Rig....

There's the extra PCB for the active PCB and then there wasn't room for the PCB for the modular interfaces so they can't hide alll of the power leads like they do in other Superflower models. That's why it looks so cluster fucked, but it is very similar in the guttural area.
 
jonnyGURU said:
Found open shots at Pimp Rig....

There's the extra PCB for the active PCB and then there wasn't room for the PCB for the modular interfaces so they can't hide alll of the power leads like they do in other Superflower models. That's why it looks so cluster fucked, but it is very similar in the guttural area.
Click to expand...

Ha beat to the punch. Oh well. It does look like a cluster fuck there. Did you ever figure out what the extra PCB was that looked like PFC in the SuperFlower?

Also note the batrhroom scale test at pimprig.....hmmmm.......nice!
 
davidhammock200 said:
Do you know which Topower series these Super Flowers (Hipers) are based on? :confused:
Click to expand...

Not off the top of my head. I can look though.
 
_Korruption_ said:
Superflower produces their own PSUs, not Topower...
Click to expand...

Topower has at least been mentioned as producing Superflower's, TTGI since 2002. I will check latter today to see what I find but I am running behind this morning. Be back.
 
_Korruption_ said:
All of them? They don't look remotely similar.
Click to expand...
Topower produces several different lines.
But as I'm not 100% sure, let's wait & see what the guys come up with.
 
TTGI/Superflower were made by Topower back in < 2002 when Topower's were primarily made in Taiwan, but since Topower moved production to China (the Topower power supplies are pretty much identical between the Taiwan and China models) I've noticed the Superflowers becoming completely unique in construction and design and made at a different factory in China (perhaps the "Fore Point" factory... but who really knows who "owns" that factory, but it's not the Topower factory.)

I was once under the impression that TTGI and Topower were the same company because we sold power supplies that said "TTGI Topower" right on them. But this was actually because Topower had no US presence and TTGI did (having made and sold Superflower cases for YEARS, they already had a strong foothold in the US. My first ATX case back in 1998 was actually a Superflower Full Tower, matter of fact.) So the power supplies were labeled for the US market as "TTGI Topower" very much in the same way you find "PCMCIS ePower" today (PCMCIS, ePower and Topower all being separate companies.)
 
davidhammock200 said:
Good Find, Thanks!

Please provide more information & links if you can, as I would really like to be able to recommend this PSU.

We know it can handel heavy loads, including dual-CPUs, with SLI & a dozen HDD's.
The question is what happens when the PC has full out SLI, but very little else (1-HDD, 1-Optical).

We need a few more of what you just found!

Thanks,
Dave ;)
Click to expand...

Looks like johnnyGURU has done all the work already. But here is another one,
http://www.falcon-nw.com/
Falcon Northwest uses this PSU for all their MachV and Talon systems. I guess this is as real-world as you'll get, if there was going to be any problems with cross-loading requirements then they will be the first one to know. Apparently they let you configure any system you want with that PSU installed.

Silverstone was honest with their cross-loading requirements by clearly listing them, something that OCZ did not do with their PSU. As shown in that FiringSquad article, the OCZ was more affected by the extreme loading than Silverstone's unit.
 
davidhammock200 said:
Please leave the +12V rails & reduce the +5V rail in 1A stages down to 4A, if both the +12V rails hold,
then we can recommend this one & I'll give you full credit (you have earned it-thanks).

12V1 = 14A

12V3 = 16A

5V = 8A (*7*6*5*4)

3.3V = 6A
Click to expand...

Ok. 3.3V stayed at 3.33, so I won't report that. Everything else will be listed as 12V1, 12V3, 5V.

w/ 8A on the 5V: 11.82V, 11.83V, 5.11V
w/ 7A on the 5V: 11.80V, 11.80V, 5.13V
w/ 6A on the 5V: 11.76V, 11.77V, 5.15V
w/ 5A on the 5V: 11.72V, 11.74V, 5.17V
w/ 4A on the 5V: 11.68V, 11.69V, 5.20V

All within spec, but a horrible drop in the 12V with only a 6A load on the 5V and it gets much worse at 4A.

So what concerns me here is if your 5V load IS low, and for whatever reason your system needs additional amperage from the 12V rail (intense graphics, processing, etc.) it's not going to get a full 12V like it would when it was at around 20A. It's going to drop a couple volts.

Despite this, I still think the crossload issue is minimal. If all you had was one hard drive and one optical, you probably have a 3A load on the 5V rail there alone. Unlike a drive's 12V load, the 5V load remains fairly contstant with a drive. Then you have another 2A for the motherboard and then whatever cards and USB devices you have (think USB keyboard and mouse) and you're probably at least with a 5 or 6A load on the 5V rail.

Just my .02. ;)
 
davidhammock200 said:
That is exactally what I was worried about.

In your opinion shoulld we recommend this PSU?
Click to expand...

Which PSU is this again?
 
I'm on the fence on this one.

30A is a hell of a load. A dual core and two high end PCI Express cards will probably yield about 24A at full load. Any other components that will bring that load up (drives, cards, etc.) will also bring up the 5V... except for lights and fans, of course.. but those don't put much of a load on a PSU (2A to 4A each, right?)

If I only had a dual core Pentium 4 with a pair of 7800's I could say for sure.

Maybe I should give this PSU to Kyle when I'm done with it and let him plug it into something for a while. ;)
 
jonnyGURU, davidhammock200, have you guys performed this same test (with +12V at 30A & +5V going down to 4A) on other power supplies?
 
Name a power supply! :D

Seriously, though. A minimum requirement on the 5V isn't usually a problem. The 12V transformer on this puppy is so behmoth that the minimum 5V requirement is unusually high.

I must admit that PCP&C had the right idea. Separate transformers for each 12V rail.

Usually crossload side effects are the other way around. If your 5V load is TOO HIGH then your 12V goes up and your 5V goes down. I've dupicated this on the Powerstream 510 (but not the 420,) the X-Connect 500W (but not the 400W,) and the Mad Dog 500W. But my response to that is: If you're putting that much load on the 5V rail, I'll bet a dozen Krispy Kremes you're using a 5V regulated Socket A CPU and it's time to upgrade your computer. ;)
 
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