Dell 2008WFP - another TN

Small monitors, how about any monitors period. There are a load of 24" TN screens hitting now as well. The race to the bottom continues.
 
Wow...I'm so accurate sometimes I scare myself.:p A while back I predicted that the "2008WFP" (just guessing on the name) would share styling cues with the 2707 and continue the trend of everyone going with cheaper TN panels. While I like the styling ok, I still like the black bezel look of the 2007WFP better. I really wish I was wrong about the TN panel but there isn't an overdrive system that is strong enough to take an IPS or PVA to 2ms.:(
 
Faster response time on LCD display doesn't necessarily mean blur free motion and overdrive causes more problems then it solves. So its wise to stick to 8ms mark on 8bit LCD displays.


Also, RT on LCDs is not stable anyway. I had the Samsung 226BW with AUO panel and it was utter rubbish (in every aspect). The motion blur was in fact identical to my old 'quoted' 16ms 17" (LG.Philips) TN panel.

PS: Most 8bit panel with quoted 8/6ms RT will beat any 2/5ms TN panels. Even though the liquid crystal inside the TN panel only has to twist 64 steps compared to 256 steps.
 
Damn these floods of TN panels man. I really wish CRT wouldn't of died out....::sighs::...
 
FED WHERE ARE YOU!? :(

lol...But yea..I'mma just nab a FW900 CRT till FED rolls out. ^_^
 
Scyles said:
Harbinger of doom, I hate you.
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I know:( I was simply going by the way they usually do things and the growing trend of TN panels for everything. What I don't understand is moving the usb ports from the right side to the left. Since most people are right handed it seems more logical to put them on the right....especially if you use it for a mouse.
 
Looks like my 2007WFP S-IPS panels will go up in value after this crap hits retail
 
Nielo TM said:
You only have to tolerate them for another two years;).
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Really. You mean like we were supposed to have SED in 2006. ;)

I see this as a race to the bottom, where the main driver is cheapness. It will be hard for any new tech to take off facing that pricing pressure when the market has shown image quality is a secondary consideration.
 
Eh, if nothing else it makes owners of current LCD's feel no need to upgrade. We can all stick it out until the next tech is released.
 
wait, so how are we SURE this is a TN? or that it is the direct 2007wfp replacement (it's called the "sp"2008wfp)?

I mean, dell has an "e" series and then the ultrasharps for a reason.

I had been screaming for a 2008wfp ever since a year of the 2007wfp lottery debacle had passed back in march, presuming they had lost all control of the panel lottery and would just use a new model to fix things....well if this TN stuff is true (still havent verified it yet though) then i guess they really did fix things alright :rolleyes:

still, i'd like to see some confirmation before i get my new monitor next week.
 
spincut said:
wait, so how are we SURE this is a TN? or that it is the direct 2007wfp replacement (it's called the "sp"2008wfp)?

I mean, dell has an "e" series and then the ultrasharps for a reason.

I had been screaming for a 2008wfp ever since a year of the 2007wfp lottery debacle had passed back in march, presuming they had lost all control of the panel lottery and would just use a new model to fix things....well if this TN stuff is true (still havent verified it yet though) then i guess they really did fix things alright :rolleyes:

still, i'd like to see some confirmation before i get my new monitor next week.
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Well, Dell will never spill the beans on which specific panel they use...but unlike some companies they have been conservative with their specs. (no outrageous contrast ratios, response time etc..) So if the 2ms turns out to be true...there are no known IPS/PVA panels that are that fast even with overdrive. The fastest IPS is the AS-IPS in the NEC 20WMGX2 which is rated @6ms but is really closer to 8ms when tested. Fast response time below 6ms is a dead giveaway that it's a TN.....and fast response is secondary to color accuracy and viewing angles imo.
 
Not only does it have a sucky panel it is also fugly compared to the sexy 2007WFP. Glad I picked mine up when I did rather than holding out for a model refresh. What would make them take this massive backwards step in design to a silver bezel and that ugly rectangle base :S
 
joemama said:
Well, Dell will never spill the beans on which specific panel they use...but unlike some companies they have been conservative with their specs. (no outrageous contrast ratios, response time etc..) So if the 2ms turns out to be true...there are no known IPS/PVA panels that are that fast even with overdrive. The fastest IPS is the AS-IPS in the NEC 20WMGX2 which is rated @6ms but is really closer to 8ms when tested. Fast response time below 6ms is a dead giveaway that it's a TN.....and fast response is secondary to color accuracy and viewing angles imo.
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I figured as much. Now i know that monitor companies are big on inconsistency, with both top NEC and Viewsonic models being succeeded by TN's, but Dell DOES have an "e" line for just that purpose, and charge extra for their ultra sharps, i'm really not sure they would double up on TN lines like that, so maybe we should wait and see, maybe this is not the actualy 2008wfp, since it's the "sp"2008wfp.

nice to hear they are at least finally rolling it out though, seems like they are about 6 months behind on it, and too late for me to consider it assuming it isnt a TN.

Oh and wasnt the IPS panel in the NEC technically the same as the 2007wfp's ips (from what i gathered i couldnt find that there really was an "AS"-IPS panel, and it really just was the same S-IPS being used)? makes you think that listed response times whether they're grey to grey or black to white may be a little different from place to play.
 
spincut said:
Dell DOES have an "e" line for just that purpose, and charge extra for their ultra sharps, i'm really not sure they would double up on TN lines like that, so maybe we should wait and see, maybe this is not the actualy 2008wfp, since it's the "sp"2008wfp.
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It's really not unusual to allow brands & products lines to drop from high end > mainstream > value sector. It's 'good marketing' (or from a different perspective - misleading the less informed public)

Maybe Dell will introduce a new line or make more use of the 'UltraSharp' label for the IPS / VA models? Given that many corporate buyers won't tolerate TN for their applications probably Dell will continue to offer something that is higher quality, just maybe not anymore at sizes around 20".

NEC are using TN in the 'Accusync' range (both consumer & business) but the more expensive Multisyncs are all IPS (90 series) or VA (70 series) IPS & VA isn't going to suddenly become totally unavailable - it'll just be increasingly difficult to find in the consumer mass market where price rules over everything
 
IanM said:
NEC are using TN in the 'Accusync' range (both consumer & business) but the more expensive Multisyncs are all IPS (90 series) or VA (70 series) IPS & VA isn't going to suddenly become totally unavailable - it'll just be increasingly difficult to find in the consumer mass market where price rules over everything
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I wish VA became unavailable. If Dell comes out with another midrange monitor that has IPS panels, would hope they wouldn't do this lame lottery that equates PVA and IPS to them when they are anything but. But I more likely figure any future midrange Dells above TN will be VA. With almost no one using 20" IPS, I assume they will stop building them soon.

To me it is IPS for quality. TN for speed and low price. VA for nothing.

Die VA die. :)
 
You guys do know the S-PVA panels inside large screen TVs will beat similar sized IPS in every aspect

For my point of view, IPS dominates the small screens as where VA dominates the large screens.
 
Nielo TM said:
FED is designed and owned by Sony (unlike SED), so we might actually see it in 2009/10
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I wouldn't count on FED monitors just like I wasn't counting on SED monitors. They are aiming to produce "Televisions" in 2009, much like SED was aiming to produced "Televisions" in 2007 before reality set in. So in two years we likely will have a hard time getting anything but TN lcds unless you want to pay for a pro level monitor.

S-PVA magically gets bigger as screen size gets bigger? I would suggest that exactly the same things wrong with s-PVA in small screens will still be there in large screens. If you dislike PVA in small screens you will not like it any better in big screens.
 
If you look at the large screen S-PVA, you know what I'm talking about; the blacks are deep, colors are vibrant and natural, viewing angle is superb, good motion handling, minimal pixilation compared to similar size IPS and excellent white levels. However, the same could not be said for similar sized IPS panels (accept for the ultra-high end 32" Alpha-IPS).
 
spincut said:
I figured as much. Now i know that monitor companies are big on inconsistency, with both top NEC and Viewsonic models being succeeded by TN's, but Dell DOES have an "e" line for just that purpose, and charge extra for their ultra sharps, i'm really not sure they would double up on TN lines like that, so maybe we should wait and see, maybe this is not the actualy 2008wfp, since it's the "sp"2008wfp.

nice to hear they are at least finally rolling it out though, seems like they are about 6 months behind on it, and too late for me to consider it assuming it isnt a TN.

Oh and wasnt the IPS panel in the NEC technically the same as the 2007wfp's ips (from what i gathered i couldnt find that there really was an "AS"-IPS panel, and it really just was the same S-IPS being used)? makes you think that listed response times whether they're grey to grey or black to white may be a little different from place to play.
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Well, if you look closely you'll see that the brushed aluminum bezel, usb ports and integrated webcam, tilt/swivel/rotate stand will be all they need to call it "Ultrasharp" and slap on a higher pricetag vs their "E" line. Yes, there really is a "AS-IPS" with slightly different specs than the S-IPS used in the 2007WFP...but you won't find it listed on any LG/Philips website because it's no longer in production. The 2008WFP may turn out to be one of the better monitors in it's class...but I think I'll pass on this one since I can't see myself buying even a "good" TN panel...and the webcam thing seems really gimmicky and simply a justification for the higher price.
 
Nielo TM said:
If you look at the large screen S-PVA... ...ultra-high end 32" Alpha-IPS).
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I can see what you're getting at, a lot of big TVs with IPS are complete junk with really washed out grey blacks, and the alpha-IPS are much better. But isn't this just a cost thing? IPS is generally more expensive than VA, so the mid range IPS panel TVs (like Toshiba, LG) end up cutting corners in other ways to compete on price? NB Toshiba seem to have picked VA for their latest range launched this month.

I've looked at a lot of S-PVA TVs too & I can't say I've been particularly impressed with any of those either...

Also it's been pointed out before (& I've certainly mentioned it in other threads) that IPS can look pretty poor under shop lighting - my example was the old iMac screen, very washed out next to the extra saturated TNs. You could see why the uninformed buyer might choose TN over IPS if they just stopped by PCWorld/Bestbuy or wherever to look at these things for the first time.

Nielo TM said:
For my point of view, IPS dominates the small screens as where VA dominates the large screens.
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again using Toasty's EIZO review pics as an example:
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1031371458&postcount=58
got anything like this that shows the big S-PVA panels colour shift - or rather how they don't colour shift in the manner of the small desktop panels if that's what you're getting at?
 
yap, spot on:D

On the new and improved large-scale S-PVA panels, you can view the image from virtually any angle without noticing major color shifts. The image is essentially perfect. However, on standard IPS panels (used by Toshiba (UK), LG and low-end Philips), you have to view the image from dead center and even then; you can sill notice color shifts on the corners and on the sides. It’s even more annoying during dark scenes due to the purple tint effect (which also affects Sharp's ASV panel but not to that extent).


sipsanglepg8.jpg
 
Nielo TM said:
On large S-PVA panels, you can view the image from 140o h/v without noticing any major color shifts. The image is essentially perfect. However, on IPS, you have to view the image from dead center and even then; you can sill notice color shifts on the corners
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The pics are a Philips IPS? What I was really suggesting was putting up a pic of a Samsung or Sony viewed with a test pattern so we can see if the left > right brightness is even on S-PVA hdtv (where clearly it isn't on the S-PVA desktop monitor)

sorry, should've made clearer what I was asking for the first time
 
Nielo TM said:
yap, spot on:D

On the new and improved large-scale S-PVA panels, you can view the image from virtually any angle without noticing major color shifts. The image is essentially perfect. However, on standard IPS panels (used by Toshiba (UK), LG and low-end Philips), you have to view the image from dead center and even then;
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Sure that makes sense, exactly opposite the behavior as small panels.

I'll worry about it when I am in the market for a LCD TV, but for now on LCD computer monitors, I will avoid PVA like the diseased plague it is.
 
IanM said:
The pics are a Philips IPS? What I was really suggesting was putting up a pic of a Samsung or Sony viewed with a test pattern so we can see if the left > right brightness is even on S-PVA hdtv (where clearly it isn't on the S-PVA desktop monitor)

sorry, should've made clearer what I was asking for the first time
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I dont know about that. I may have to sneak in a camera and take a picture lol..
 
Snowdog said:
Sure that makes sense, exactly opposite the behavior as small panels.

I'll worry about it when I am in the market for a LCD TV, but for now on LCD computer monitors, I will avoid PVA like the diseased plague it is.
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If you're in a market for a TV, go with plasma. Its a little more effort but with the reward.
 
Snowdog said:
I'll worry about it when I am in the market for a LCD TV, but for now on LCD computer monitors, I will avoid PVA like the diseased plague it is.
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Quite so, this topic has digressed somewhat from 2008WFP...

still, there is some slight hope that if things can be improved for TVs then the tech may trickle down to the smaller size panels - maybe next year we won't be so easily able to dismiss VA monitors
 
Yeah but it seems lieke a lot of unecesary work to shift lines, if they wanted a new 20" tn they could just make a new E monitor, i know it stands for profit to mislead and put a cheaper panel in their ultrasharp, but even with the way dall ahndled that panel lottery, i just dont think that sounds loike something they would do with the way their product lines are already set up.
 
Nielo TM said:
yap, spot on:D

On the new and improved large-scale S-PVA panels, you can view the image from virtually any angle without noticing major color shifts. The image is essentially perfect. However, on standard IPS panels (used by Toshiba (UK), LG and low-end Philips), you have to view the image from dead center and even then; you can sill notice color shifts on the corners and on the sides. It’s even more annoying during dark scenes due to the purple tint effect (which also affects Sharp's ASV panel but not to that extent).


sipsanglepg8.jpg
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You might wish to know that Phillips doesn't use exclusively LG-PHILLIPS S-IPS panels in their screens. Many of them, especially the less expensive ones have MVA panels inside. That picture looks like MVA.

S-IPS have the least image shifts of all LCD technology, but its also the most expensive of technology. What you describe is a typical VA effect, not an S-IPS effect and I think the "S-IPS" panels you've looked at have actually been VA's. :)
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
You might wish to know that Phillips doesn't use exclusively LG-PHILLIPS S-IPS panels in their screens. Many of them, especially the less expensive ones have MVA panels inside. That picture looks like MVA.

S-IPS have the least image shifts of all LCD technology, but its also the most expensive of technology. What you describe is a typical VA effect, not an S-IPS effect and I think the "S-IPS" panels you've looked at have actually been VA's. :)
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I know why you've said MVA cos I've seen the Benq in action but S-IPS gives away an obvious purple tint when viewed off center. I know CMO's MVA also produces purple tint similar to S-IPS but its heavy color shits gives it away.

IPS panels used in HDTVs are cheap (accept for IPS Alpha, which reflects on the overall cost of Panasonic LCDs in Europe).

Anyway, what I saw is S-IPS and I've seen it on LG and Toshiba sets as well. So I'm not wrong lol

BTW, Philips don't use their own S-IPS technology on the high-end sets. Instate, they tuen to Sharp-Japan.for the better ASV panel.


PS: S-PVA is more expensive to make then standard S-IPS. Thats why Sony and Samsung turned to AUO and CMO for their low-end/mid-range (Samsung only) sets.
 
Purple tint does not equal extremely washed out blacks due to an inferior viewing angle. Its a VA.
 
Nielo TM said:
PS: S-PVA is more expensive to make then standard S-IPS. Thats why Sony and Samsung turned to AUO and CMO for their low-end/mid-range (Samsung only) sets.
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All that indicates is that S-PVA is more expensive than AUO/CMO VA panels.

If you look at Eizo/NEC they sell IPS and S-PVA panels and for both the S-IPS are more expensive.
 
solaris54 said:
So do you think the Dell 3007WFP 30" monitor will follow the same path to TN?
I understand right now all of the Dell 3007WFP monitors are IPS panels?
Maybe it is time to buy one of those just in case.
Samsung has a new 30" panel spec.........im gettin nervous.


http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/news.htm#samsung_panels
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I predict they will go with LG/Philips new 30" S-PVA panel....or perhaps do a lottery with that and the Samsung depending on price/availability.:rolleyes:
 
Stop it. Stop predicting things. If you don't predict things, things can't go so wrong.
 
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