http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20050807051447.html
Hardlaunching the entire line were certainly smear what nVidia did a little.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
ATIs R520, RV515, RV530 Processors Ready for Production
- Thread starter Shifra
- Start date
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20050807051447.html
Hardlaunching the entire line were certainly smear what nVidia did a little.
Shifra said:
Did you read the entire article, they might lauch on 26th but the chips aren't available in the board partners hand yet, so it might be well after that before you see cards on the selves. It takes a good month for board partners to get cards ready after they get the chips.
kirbyrj
Fully [H]
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Messages
- 30,693
So...we're still looking at Sept/Oct before we see cards. Oct/Nov before reasonably priced.
tornadotsunamilife
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,492
Now they've delivered the products, can they deliver performance and features?
Terra said:Shifra said:
Why is that?
It's great news for the consumers, when a product is hardlaunched.
ATI would look inferior if they didn't try a hardlaunch.
The bad publicity would be huge..so kudos to NVIDIA for setting a (hopefully) new trend
Terra...
NV only launched one card, so far. If ATi was to launch multiple cards at once (and actually have them available), that is why he said(I think) it would smear what little NV did. Little as in, they only launched one card. Very few people buy cards for $600, or even $500. Many more buy at a $200 price range.
fallguy said:
precisely.
While it was a step in the right direction, launching the card at MSRP $599 only to drop it by $100-$120 in a month was a small step. Dont tell me that if you're one of these people that paid the 600 you dont feel a little rubbed the wrong way at this. No one likes to burn money. Hardlaunching an entire line of cards on the other hand and at an MSRP not bloated too much, would be superb. If they hit a september release they wont be that far behind nVidia's complete launch of the Geforce 7.
Low/Med/High launch much better then just a single High end launch.
Sorry but if ATi's pricing scheme is like that of the r480 the r520 will cost $550 bucks and maybe a bit higher. Releasing an entire line is better for who? By hard launching an entire line more people will go for the best bang for the buck, and will also drop the demand for high end cards, thats why high ends are always released first so the graphics compaines get a nice boost in profit margins for the first chips out the door. And by doing so they can use other techniques to produce lower end chips which will drop cost of production on lower end chips
nV is already releaing the GT, We don't know anything about the other mid range cores but its know that they are ready their code names wouldn't have shown up in multiple drivers if they weren't
ATi has to get thier mid range sm 3.0 chips out soon, the 6600 gt is still selling like hot cakes with no competition, the x800gt is still no where.
nV is already releaing the GT, We don't know anything about the other mid range cores but its know that they are ready their code names wouldn't have shown up in multiple drivers if they weren't
ATi has to get thier mid range sm 3.0 chips out soon, the 6600 gt is still selling like hot cakes with no competition, the x800gt is still no where.
tornadotsunamilife
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,492
razor1 said:
Consumers. Don't say 'bang for buck cards' will totally boycot high-end card sales. This market has always been an enthusiast dominance and people pay for extra performance. Ati benefit from having the high end cards on sale for enthusiasts as well as lower and mid range cards for everyone else
iori yagami
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2004
- Messages
- 213
too late ati
*watches order of new system with 7800gtx sli*
*watches order of new system with 7800gtx sli*
tornadotsunamilife said:Consumers. Don't say 'bang for buck cards' will totally boycot high-end card sales. This market has always been an enthusiast dominance and people pay for extra performance. Ati benefit from having the high end cards on sale for enthusiasts as well as lower and mid range cards for everyone else
Markets don't work that way, If you had a choice between and x800xl or x800xt and only these two cards, which one would you go for? For a 5% peformance difference I don't think even most enthusiests would over look the price difference of course there will be a few out there. Now ATi will cut into possible extra profits by doing so.
ATi now is in a reactive situation, actually has been in a reactive situation since last year. ATi is forced to release thier entire line up, and nV is waiting for that so they can up the ante on every single segment other then the two cards they have already released. Just makes it harder for ATi at the end. Messing up their entire line up with a hundred different cards if nV is going to produce cards that outperform ATi's counterpart. Just like last gen.
tornadotsunamilife
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,492
razor1 said:
I don't think it is fair to judge pricing scheme and card performance by looking at the past products. What you said is like saying why did nvidia bother with the 6800ultra when everyone bought a gt and overclocked it? The 6800U still sold a lot of cards.
However nvidia have been wiser with the gtx and gt giving a larger performance between each card giving an incentive for people to buy the gtx, who's to say ati wont do the same?
Shifra said:
This drives me crazy...why don't you let these people speak for themselves?
Anyone who spends $600 on a videocard doesn't care about burning money THAT much, or they wouldn't have bought it...and everyone knows that prices drop a few months after a card is launched...it happens with just about every card as long as supply is there...
So yeah...let's see a show of hands instead of just assuming that there is some nebulous group of unnamed consumers out there that are angry about prices dropping on the 7800GTX...
Prices dropping is due to manufacturers competing with one another...nvidia doesn't control it...while we're at it...let's see a show of hands of all the people that think prices dropping are a GOOD THING...
tornadotsunamilife said:
They don't have a choice since there might be an ultra
. Being reactive to a competitor is good but it also can cause alot of problems if they aren't looking into counter actiion possible releases, If ATi does a hard launch for thier entire line, then they will not have this option until the refresh, unless they want to come across the same situation that happened with the x line.We don't know if the GTX is the high end card of this line yet, if nV wants to release one that higher, its pretty obvious they can do it.
nV is not going to be second fiddle to ATi anymore, they are being alot smarter about everything from marketing to releasing of products and performance. If ATi doesn't catch on to what is going on, I'm sure they are thinking about it, just doesn't seem they are taking any action, this is not going to be a great line This might come down to they aren't in a position to take the right action. ATi's delay is hurting them here but by not showing your entire hand to an oppenent can give ATi an advantage.
If ATi only released lets say 2 top end cards would that hurt them? Not really since nV only will have thier 2 high end cards out. But they still have the 6600 gt threat, so they have to release at least 3 cards. 2 high end and 1 mid range. People can say well the x800gt will take care of that, but it really won't since its a "dead" core, and they are being sold to milk money out of the .11 micron cores that only have 8 functional pipes.
ATi is looking at 2 evils here which one is worse?
a) Let the 6600gt gain many more sales
b) release a mid range with similiar cabilities as the 6600gt with more performance and then only to loose to a 7600 varient.
^eMpTy^ said:
Im a little upset about it. The same card I got, was $120 less a few weeks later. I didnt think the price would drop that fast. Despite what you think, its not because of competition, its the quanity of cards out.
Yes I think price drops are overall a very good thing. As I said, I just didnt expect it. NVs nor ATis PCI-E cards dropped like that. In fact, they were usually above MSRP for the first little while.
Thats what I get for being an early adopter though. I would have waited a few weeks, to save $120 though, for sure. I would assume most other people would have too.
burningrave101
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2003
- Messages
- 11,825
Shifra said:
They wont be at MSRP unless availability is high from the start. Otherwise your just looking at another X800XT PE and X850XT PE where you gotta hunt around for one in stock some place after launch and place a pre-order that never comes through. If ATI wasn't having problems with their 90nm production process then the cards would already be released but their not so that just calls into question whether or not ATI can supply the demand this time. If they can't you'll get to pay another bloated MSRP price. ATI will be filling orders to the OEM's like Dell and HP first and foremost so we'll just have to hope ATI is capable of meeting that demand and ours at the same time.
SoLiD_MasteR
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2004
- Messages
- 199
Wow great news can't wait to get new replacement for my x800xt
I'm glad that I could hold up and skip the 7800GTX
The new cards should be out by the end of Aug ..
I'm glad that I could hold up and skip the 7800GTX
The new cards should be out by the end of Aug ..
Sorry, but that's completely wrong. Rick Bergman said in a webcast last week that they (ATi) were originally looking to launch R520 in a June timeframe. Also, he stated that R520 would now launch in a September/October timeframe. Listen to the webcast here.Cali3350 said:
It's probably Crossfire. Bergman says press samples are to be made widely available in late August so a Crossfire paper-launch at the Fall IDF (August 23-25) looks on the cards. I'm pretty certain it's a paper-launch for Crossfire because he also said Crossfire production starts in September.Cali3350 said:
coz said:
not what i heard, for all intense and purposes boards are done. If it has anything to do with CrossFire its going to be a hardlaunch. As far as im concerned we've already been in a paper launch.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=933595&page=3&pp=20
No, its not a crossfire board, its an RS480 Express200 Sapphire board. Only thing that separates is the dual PCI Express lanes, if they are sending those out, as i said, boards are done. I suggest you to read his comments before you yourself comment here, hes not a benchmarker or reviewer.
razor1 said:
Are you saying releasing a Low/Med/High card is not a good move? I dont understand this and i think its because you're looking at it a different way then i am. The cards you are using for examples were all months apart from the main launch and have nothing to do with what cores are prepaired.
And the G70 codename was showing up in hacked driver files since early febuary. With how far ahead leaked beta versions are let loose thats an indication of nothing.
Highest end cards sell far less % wise compared to anything else either company releases, if ATI and nVIdia based all their time on just high end products the companies would kill thier business. Low/medium end will certainly be the real sellers and should be the main goal to release first. This is what ATI has been doing. First X card to be actually released to retail was the X800Pro, not the XT or PE.
tornadotsunamilife
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,492
razor1 said:
What you've just said is based purely on speculation. Do you have any evidence that ati has no planning for a refresh, a more competitive cost/benefit card, a large performance increase over competitors cards? The answer is no, and we have no idea that they do.
Shifra said:
Its the lesser of two evils at the moment for ATi, as they don't have a choice they need an entire new line up that will compete against the 6600's and the high end 7800's, from features and performance. ATi is releasing an entire line up low to high, everything, in the short term this is good for them but in the long term it might not be good.
G70 was there for over year, never really was talking about that. nV's attuide has changed that can be seen, they really won't let ATi have the upper hand unless they don't have a choice. ATi has to beat them, unlike with the Fx line nV beat themselves, call it arrogance or what ever, they screwed up.
The high ends sell the mid/ low end. If they don't have a good performer at the top thier OEM sales get hurt for thier mid/lower end system integrators.
ATi released the Pro because they weren't expecting a 16 pipe card from nV and they thought a 12 pipe card would out perform the Ultra too, (after the Ultra was released I remember ATi stating that thier pro will beat it.)
tornadotsunamilife said:
This isn't pure speculation, ATi's delay of the r520 says it all, Its yields for the performance they were going for wasn't as need, this delay came right after the benchmarks of the g70 were released. They never stated the delay before the benchmarks. They delayed it twice not once and specifiacally stated yield issues, as I said before I was really suprised they were having yeild issues after the r420 scew up. ATi will come out with a refresh but how soon will it come out? I would think around 4-6 months from now? Any sooner that will hurt the sales of what they release now.
nV is also getting rid of thier 6600 "bad" cores with the 6600le, trying to make space for the 7600's.
i dunno razor, you seem to be speaking with arrogance. Ominous almost, a fortelling that ATI did this for this or that for that but have always been playing catch up. Thats the message i get and i cant say i agree with much of it.
you're hinting very strongly that the R520 was inferior before it was released so thats why its still in hiding. As if ATI is trying to pull something out its ass. You are entitiled to your opinion of course but i see absolutly not logic in your confidence of thinking this. If ATI or nVidia dedicate themselves to a high end war, thats what they do, but ATI had all chips under the same delay, not just the high end, this says more to me then how you are simplifying it. If they were really worried about the GTX they would of launched lower end models right away, but i dont think they had anything because they were sorting issues, you seem to think they did.
The G70 was not hugely radical in many ways.
you're hinting very strongly that the R520 was inferior before it was released so thats why its still in hiding. As if ATI is trying to pull something out its ass. You are entitiled to your opinion of course but i see absolutly not logic in your confidence of thinking this. If ATI or nVidia dedicate themselves to a high end war, thats what they do, but ATI had all chips under the same delay, not just the high end, this says more to me then how you are simplifying it. If they were really worried about the GTX they would of launched lower end models right away, but i dont think they had anything because they were sorting issues, you seem to think they did.
The G70 was not hugely radical in many ways.
Shifra said:
I'm not saying the r520 is inferior, depending on the clocks it has a chance to out perform the g70. It all comes down to how much ATi wants to push it. This is the same stituation as the xline.
What I'm saying ATi better start thinking of not being reactive to nV but to be the leader it was 2 years ago.
Well, if Rick Bergman says Crossfire samples are to be made available to the press in late August (indicating the official launch timeframe) and production starts in September then I believe him. After all, he's the senior vice president of marketing for ATi and a pretty reliable source!!Shifra said:
razor1 said:
Seeing as how ATI has openly taken unified shaders as the future, and infact already has a part out with them and is moving all of their future products to such a architecture, id say them being reactive to NV is....stupid?
The G70 is a great step forward for Nvidia and the NV40 architecture. Anyone who says it's not a big deal should look back to what the X800s and X850s were derived from (cough cough 9700 Pro - exactly). Even if the R520 kicks the shit out of the G70, the damage is already done.
I don't see how ATI is not being reactive. What is Crossfire???? Reactive to Nvidia's SLI. What is r520 (and shader 3.0)??? Reactive to Nvidia's 7800GTX (performance wise) and the 6800 series (shader 3.0)? What is the X800GT?? Reactive to the NVIDIA 6600GT (still with no shader 3.0 support my guess).
Think before you speak. An Xbox 360 chip ati has created has nothing to do with PC GPU's at the moment. Ati has said that their chip for the Xbox360 is a radical new architecture and will not be seen in performance or features (in Ati's PC GPU's) until Ati's chips after the R520 in 2006.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25197
"The guy in charge of the demo told us that the graphic part is much more powerful than even the upcoming R5XX, series and that ATI's desktop unit will match Xbox 360 graphics with a next generation scheduled for next year."
To me that speaks volumes on r520. It is nothing new or radical and is just REACTIVE. I mean the PS3 is using a slightly stronger derivative (RSX) of the 7800GTX.
Obviously we will not know until benchmarks come for r520, but I think it will be bested with NVIDIA's Ace card some Ultra derivative of the 7800GTX.
Also, if ATI releases a hardlaunch of their entire line (to save face they have to hardlaunch something) that may be good in the short term, but think about this. NVIDIA can just tweak their entire line (midrange and low especially) to surpass all Ati offers. I think that is why NVIDIA is waiting.
Also, I was at FRY's yesterday (SoCal) and saw the 7800GT's (eVGA) for sale. So NVIDIA has now hardlaunched two cards to Ati's zero cards. In my opinion, these are horrible omens for Ati. They better hope xbox360 sells well because they will lose ground in the PC market this year.
D
Think before you speak. An Xbox 360 chip ati has created has nothing to do with PC GPU's at the moment. Ati has said that their chip for the Xbox360 is a radical new architecture and will not be seen in performance or features (in Ati's PC GPU's) until Ati's chips after the R520 in 2006.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25197
"The guy in charge of the demo told us that the graphic part is much more powerful than even the upcoming R5XX, series and that ATI's desktop unit will match Xbox 360 graphics with a next generation scheduled for next year."
To me that speaks volumes on r520. It is nothing new or radical and is just REACTIVE. I mean the PS3 is using a slightly stronger derivative (RSX) of the 7800GTX.
Obviously we will not know until benchmarks come for r520, but I think it will be bested with NVIDIA's Ace card some Ultra derivative of the 7800GTX.
Also, if ATI releases a hardlaunch of their entire line (to save face they have to hardlaunch something) that may be good in the short term, but think about this. NVIDIA can just tweak their entire line (midrange and low especially) to surpass all Ati offers. I think that is why NVIDIA is waiting.
Also, I was at FRY's yesterday (SoCal) and saw the 7800GT's (eVGA) for sale. So NVIDIA has now hardlaunched two cards to Ati's zero cards. In my opinion, these are horrible omens for Ati. They better hope xbox360 sells well because they will lose ground in the PC market this year.
D
neubspeed said:
what is it with people and these comments? ATI is not too late and the damage has not been done. Its long term sales, this is all that matters. If you think nVidia having 1 or 2 cards out for 3 months before ATI release a new one as well is "too late" or "very damaging" you're totally insane. In the large scheme of things this is meaningless.
Proxy said:When ever I some one says R520 and up... I hear G80-SLI, G80-SLI!!!
So a voice in your head tells you about a core from 2006 that is completely unknown to everyone? k..
tornadotsunamilife
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,492
That's what we're saying. The consider the R500 (Xenos chip) as a first try out on new features and architecture. Ati will be able to expand on this for the R600 (but this will obviously be a new architecture), ie they already have an advantage next-generation and this generations card isn't even out.
tornadotsunamilife
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Messages
- 2,492
Shifra said:
You're right, look at the MX series sales
Shifra said:
The fact is, no one who isn't a hardcore gamer or computer enthusiast would buy a GTX or an R520. Nobody walks down to Best Buy with their e-machine asking for a $600 video card. People who are part of this [H] demographic jump on the hardware bandwagon as soon as it's released. And unfortunately for ATI, a lot of people chose not to wait for their card and go splurge on a GTX or two. After spending $600, I highly doubt they would change cards for an ATi that is only marginally better and probably has crappy driver support (because it's an all new core). This is why they've lost the high-end battle, people with money who know have picked up their GTX(s) already. Very few are waiting for the ATi card, and fewer will pay the premium at the time of launch over a GTX which will be approx $120+ cheaper.
The r600 may be a step in the right direction, but all they have shown so far is reactive. r600 won't come to desktop until what Middle to end of 2006? At that point what do you think NVIDIA might have? This is all WAY up in the air and nobody knows what will happen. Ati could pull an NVIDIA "FX" release blunder for all we know if this technology isn't all that (as NVIDIA has said with unified shaders). The software must take advantage.
All we have to go on is SLI-Crossfire, 6600GT-x800GT, and of course their following NVIDIA's lead in PS 3.0. So how could anyone in their right mind say with what we know so far that Ati has not been reactive? If you look at this recent history this is quite clear.
Any other speculation is just that until products get released.
All we have to go on is SLI-Crossfire, 6600GT-x800GT, and of course their following NVIDIA's lead in PS 3.0. So how could anyone in their right mind say with what we know so far that Ati has not been reactive? If you look at this recent history this is quite clear.
Any other speculation is just that until products get released.