24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

Thanks for that! But they are not on? I was assuming you would show pics of the two displaying wall paper, or a game, or something. The big hubbub is all about how much nicer the Non AG covered 900 will display colors and sharpness than the AG covered ones.

I see yours are set up with BNC cables. I was using BNC but couldn't get my 900 to display at max res until I switched to VGA. I really see no difference in visual quality between BNC and VGA either. But I am sure that is opening a can of worms :)

Thanks again for taking the time to take the pics and post them :)
 
quantum112 said:
Even though I like the picture on my FW900 without the Anti-glare certainly, I do have to say that I am slowly getting tired of having to keep my room very dark already. I can settle for a reduced black level during the day but the reflections...gah.

I'll have to work on changing desk orientation as to not face any windows but still if the room is lit up there is no helping on reflections. Also, I believe the AG film on the FW900 is a simple neutral density filter, like the one used on camera lenses, thus, it would effectively improve the contrast ratio of the display, as such:

"Neutral density filters are dark glass or plastic. They reduce incoming light by a certain factor, and reflected light by the same factor again. Light leaving the display is reduced only once. For example, 50% transmission glass reduces incoming light by 50% and reflections by another 50%. Diffuse reflection of ambient illumination is thus reduced by 75%. However, display luminance is reduced by 50%. The ratio of display luminance to reflected light (contrast) is improved by 50%."

So I am actually looking at getting a replacement one because I believe that the FW900 way overshoots the 120 cd/m2 standard (which some even agree is too much) without the Anti-glare and could comfortably deal with a loss in brightness, though not neccessarily one as severe as the factory one. The only thing I have found is these Clarex guys, but they don't respond to my mails.
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We have conducted several WinDAS/WinCAT hardware calibrations tests runs in several Grade A+ GDM-FW900s with the AG coating, and without the AC coating, and based on results, we concluded that the units without the AG coating produced different calibration results than the units with the AG coating. Now, when we performed software calibrations on both units, the units without the AG coating produced more accurate ICC profiles than the units with the AG coating. Delta E's differences in units with the AG coating vs. units w/o AG coating was as high as 10! Not surprising... Therefore for color accuracy, I prefer the units without the AG coating, but again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

To reduce the glare, it is highly recommended to have an studio with neutral gray flat walls, and the use of a monitor hood. Also, it is recommended not to expose the monitor to incident light or direct light (artificial and/or sunlight), which will result in erroneous calibration data as most of the spectrophotometers (i1 X-Rite, Spyder, etc.) are sensitive to any types of lighting.

In my practical experience, a luminance level of a Grade A+ GDM-FW900 (w/o AG coating) which will produce an acceptable balanced image ranges 80-90 cd/m2. Anything over that will cause over-brightness. Issues with the CRT such as out of spec G2 levels or setting the brightness control too high will cause the luminance to go out of range. For accurate color calibration purposes, we set luminance levels to 80-85 cd/m2 which have produced good results and accurate ICC profiles.

Hope this helps...

Sincerely,

Unkle Vito!
 
Ive taken some pictures with wallpapers and ingame screenshots but as i copied it from my sd-card to my harddisk it says that the pictures are corrupt. So i will have to make them again.
 
Poordevil said:
I see yours are set up with BNC cables. I was using BNC but couldn't get my 900 to display at max res until I switched to VGA. I really see no difference in visual quality between BNC and VGA either.
Click to expand...

If you want to get maximal resolution with BNC (1920x1200 85hz) then you should install the monitor inf. My first time as i connected my monitor with bnc i only got 1600x1200. But with the inf you can choose all resolutions as normal as with VGA. Only 2304x1440 is not selectable, but when you create a custom resolution it should also work.

I think that BNC is a little bit better(sharper) then VGA but everybody sees things differently.
 
Here ive got the new pictures with wallpapers and ingame footage.

[Maybe the brightness is a bit too much on AG-Removed.]

Left is AG-Removed / Right is AG-Coated

Crysis 2 difference
IMG_4835.jpg


Crysis 2 Removed AG
IMG_4838.jpg


Crysis 2 with AG-Coating
IMG_4836.jpg


Starcraft II difference
IMG_4840.jpg


Starcraft II Removed AG
IMG_4843.jpg


Starcraft II with AG-Coating
IMG_4842.jpg


1x1 Pixel Pattern
IMG_4851.jpg


Wallpaper 1
IMG_4852.jpg


Wallpaper 2
IMG_4853.jpg


Wallpaper 3
IMG_4854.jpg


Wallpaper 1 Zoom Removed AG
IMG_4855.jpg


Wallpaper 1 Zoom with AG-Coating
IMG_4856.jpg


In reality both look very good. Blacklevel is beautiful on AG-Removed and AG-Coated. Also Sharpness and Colors. I would say if you have an completly scratched Coating then remove it, if not then leave it up. You can always remove it, but when its down then you cant get it back on.

(I hope my English is not too bad ^^)
 
I'm considering removing the AG because of some annoying scratches on one of my FW900s, but I would prefer to leave it intact. My calibration results are completely satisfactory with an average DE <1 using a DTP94 with ColorEyes software.

Thanks for the photos, Myramond!
 
Very helpful Myramond.Thanks for posting, you are a gentleman and a scholar!

The biggest difference to my eye are the pics of the forest. The green and all the colors look much brighter with AG removed. Also the screens in Starcraft 2 and Crysis 2 seem to show the AG coated screen looking just slightly fuzzy or hazy compared to bare glass.

Overall though I think I will leave my AG on for now, after all it does keep reflection and glare at a minimum and that would be an issue with me if I removed it.
 
Myramond said:
If you want to get maximal resolution with BNC (1920x1200 85hz) then you should install the monitor inf. My first time as i connected my monitor with bnc i only got 1600x1200. But with the inf you can choose all resolutions as normal as with VGA. Only 2304x1440 is not selectable, but when you create a custom resolution it should also work.

I think that BNC is a little bit better(sharper) then VGA but everybody sees things differently.
Click to expand...

Oh I had no problem reaching 1920 X 1200 with BNC. It was 2304 X 1440 I could not select until I switched to VGA. Even so I have my desktop set at 1920 X 1200 ( I like the larger icons and text ) and I have yet to see the option in any of my games to select 2304 X 1440. So even though the option is there in Display Properties for selecting 2304 X1440 I haven't been using it.
 
Gotta have a tri-pod for those shots myramond. I assume you didnt use one with the 1x1 pixel pattern. If you did, you have serious issues.. :p
 
ZeosPantera said:
Gotta have a tri-pod for those shots myramond. I assume you didnt use one with the 1x1 pixel pattern. If you did, you have serious issues.. :p
Click to expand...

Yes you right i did not used a tri-pod for this shot. My hands done the issue ^^.

Next time when i make some new pictures i will use an tri-pod.

Thx to hardBBQ and Poordevil, i hope that these pictures will help many other GDM users in their decision about to remove it or not.
 
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Those two FW900s side by side is the ultimate p0rn. ;) I wish I could have picked up three of those suckers when they were new.
 
Does anyone have a link to WinDAS that actually works, plus the MDL file for the FW900? I lost mine (no idea how) and can't find it again :(
 
A moment of silence please. My original GDM-FW900 in my family's constant service since November 2001 has just passed away. Almost a decade of heavy and reliable service (for me and then my dad). Arguably still the finest in computer picture quality. Rest in peace old friend.
 
SH1 said:
A moment of silence please. My original GDM-FW900 in my family's constant service since November 2001 has just passed away. Almost a decade of heavy and reliable service (for me and then my dad). Arguably still the finest in computer picture quality. Rest in peace old friend.
Click to expand...

So what do you replace it with? Are the latest flat screen LCDs any good at all? I haven't seen one perform in ages!
 
dorino said:
They're good. They're not FW900s... Nothing can match it.
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My FW900 died last year and I'd have to say it was the best monitor ive owned as a whole. (lasted a little over 5 years for me but it was used when I bought it).

Seems with LCD you have to pick your compromise, I currently have a Samsung 2333T(PVA panel) and Samsung PX2370 (TN panel) on my desk, the TN has fast response times which make it nice for gaming but it has narrow viewing angles and dark scenes in movies / games still leave much desired in the black level department vs CRT.

The 2333T on the other hand uses a PVA panel which are known for high contrast ratios, decent black levels, wider viewing angles, I use it for watching movies and I must admit it does have pretty good black levels, the white levels are also really bright (for example seeing headlights at night actually look like bright headlights).

The downside is PVAs are slower panels and exhibit more trailing / ghosting during motion while playing games. Although ive been playing Portal 2 on it lately and the blur hasnt been that bad.

Basically I'm waiting for an LCD that can combine deep black levels, high contrast ratio AND fast response times all in one :)
 
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All you can do if your FW900 goes is buy another one on eBay or eat a tub of ice cream or just load your desk with as many LCD's as it takes to take your mind off of the quality and refresh rate and immense weight and how much you miss it.
 
After careful consideration, my plan is to start playing the lottery. Win. And then buy one of those new Sony OLED displays...
 
Anyone have a non widescreen CRT and play BC2 or Hot Pursuit? I just got a Compaq P1220 Diamondtron and noticed both games are letterboxed in the menu for some reason. I don't really care since the main game works, but that seems odd.
 
Poordevil said:
So what do you replace it with? Are the latest flat screen LCDs any good at all? I haven't seen one perform in ages!
Click to expand...

I agree with the other folks here. There's really no direct replacement. (I will try to stick it out with my remaining CRTS for now.)

Maybe those new OLED displays by Sony, which are broadcast professsional and massively expensive, open a crack in the door, suggesting what will eventually be available at consumer price points, but right now there's nothing.

To get CRT levels of black and contrast today at a high, but more consumer level price, I think you'd have to go with a local dimming LCD TV, a JVC D-ILA front projector, or find a used example of the late, great, Pioneer Kuro plasma. (Or of course, a used CRT, if one goes that route.) Plus some interesting furniture arrangements.

Or as others have indicated, focus on LCDs's strength -- large panel size or multi-display, which I think is effectively a factor in picture quality itself. Indeed, the panel sizes one can get today, would have seemed remarkable not that long ago.

And that aforementioned ice cream... :)
 
SH1 said:
Or as others have indicated, focus on LCDs's strength -- large panel size or multi-display, which I think is effectively a factor in picture quality itself. Indeed, the panel sizes one can get today, would have seemed remarkable not that long ago.

And that aforementioned ice cream... :)
Click to expand...

Yea LCDs do have some advantages, I think the biggest difference Ive noticed picture quality wise is the overall brightness or contrast "punch" being a lot brighter on LCD vs. CRT, also overall sharpness is crisper on LCD.
 
TomGreen321 said:
Anyone have a non widescreen CRT and play BC2 or Hot Pursuit? I just got a Compaq P1220 Diamondtron and noticed both games are letterboxed in the menu for some reason. I don't really care since the main game works, but that seems odd.
Click to expand...

This is probably the game's fault. Try playing it on a 4:3 LCD and see if it is still letterboxed.
 
mathesar said:
Yea LCDs do have some advantages, I think the biggest difference Ive noticed picture quality wise is the overall brightness or contrast "punch" being a lot brighter on LCD vs. CRT, also overall sharpness is crisper on LCD.
Click to expand...

Brightness, not contrast.
The sharpness is pretty debatable ;)
 
dorino said:
Brightness, not contrast.
The sharpness is pretty debatable ;)
Click to expand...

Theres really no debate with an analog vs. digital signal, My FW900 was sharp I used to run it at 1920x1200@85hz, but my LCDs @ 1920x1080 are sharper to the point of being able to see the individual pixels that make up text.
 
I was always under the impression that LCD panels were better for eye strain than CRT monitors. Am I misinformed? Will a good CRT, presumable with a high refresh rate, result in similar (negligible) eye strain to a LCD panel?
 
I don't think I've noticed a difference in eye strain, CRT versus LCD. I don't know, but I assume CRTs got a bad reputation on that score, because back in the day so many were left at the 60 Hz Windows default.

LCDs have certainly raised expectations as to text clarity. It's less of a gap though with the finer focusing and grills of the FW900 and F520. On the F520, they even got the corners sorted out. And then they were gone...

All that said, for the highest clear resolutions, I think LCD certainly gets the win. My laptop's small screen is 1920 by 1200 and text is crystal clear...
 
mathesar said:
Theres really no debate with an analog vs. digital signal, My FW900 was sharp I used to run it at 1920x1200@85hz, but my LCDs @ 1920x1080 are sharper to the point of being able to see the individual pixels that make up text.
Click to expand...

i dont get what youre saying. you can see the screen door effect on your LCD and that makes it superior? if i get close enough i too can see the individual pixels on my FW900 @ 2304x1440. :(

ps if anyone has crysis still installed, do this console trick for unreal image quality: r_Width xxxx then type, r_Height yyyy. if you can run it at 4032x2520 and beyond... just, damn.
 
cinnamonandgravy said:
i dont get what youre saying. you can see the screen door effect on your LCD and that makes it superior? if i get close enough i too can see the individual pixels on my FW900 @ 2304x1440. :(

ps if anyone has crysis still installed, do this console trick for unreal image quality: r_Width xxxx then type, r_Height yyyy. if you can run it at 4032x2520 and beyond... just, damn.
Click to expand...

lol no I wasn't referring to the screen door effect, I do realize the difference ;)
 
HELP!

I was doing digital convergence and exit windas without first saving it, now my monitor is locked with green key symbol whenever I try to access the OSD. Anyone know how to fix this? Does it have to do something with the power cycle and not touching the OSD for certain time? I can't remember. Thanks.

Edit: Solved. Was able to get back to OSD.
 
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SH1 said:
I agree with the other folks here. There's really no direct replacement. (I will try to stick it out with my remaining CRTS for now.)

Maybe those new OLED displays by Sony, which are broadcast professsional and massively expensive, open a crack in the door, suggesting what will eventually be available at consumer price points, but right now there's nothing.

To get CRT levels of black and contrast today at a high, but more consumer level price, I think you'd have to go with a local dimming LCD TV, a JVC D-ILA front projector, or find a used example of the late, great, Pioneer Kuro plasma. (Or of course, a used CRT, if one goes that route.) Plus some interesting furniture arrangements.

Or as others have indicated, focus on LCDs's strength -- large panel size or multi-display, which I think is effectively a factor in picture quality itself. Indeed, the panel sizes one can get today, would have seemed remarkable not that long ago.

And that aforementioned ice cream... :)
Click to expand...

I don't think you need to go as far as a Pioneer Kuro. I think any good plasma (like my 50" Panny GT25) produces blacks that are close enough to CRT, excellent colors, great viewing angle, etc. If only they made a 37" 1080p (but they gave up that market to LCD long ago...all they ever had was 1366x768).

I had a DLP projector for years, that wasn't terrible either (but not as good as a plasma). Even a mini DLP rear projection display would be awesome. But cheap LCDs have pretty much crushed any sort of viable competition in the small sizes.
 
If I were to buy a new direct view TV, Panasonic would be at the top of my list.

Got a great deal on a big Samsung DLP about 3 years back (it was surplus or something), which has been a nice TV. Hoping to next try front projection, but I'm not sure if that is practical for me or when that would be...
 
my eyefnity setup is in win7x64, 6970

I have 3 monitors:
Left 2405FPW via dvi, middle FW900 via VGA, right 2407wfpb via display port -> vga adapter.

i run a custom .inf driver hack to force fw900 to 1920x1200@95Hz in single monitor mode, it stays in that 95Hz even on extended desktop, but when the unified resolution of eyefinity is enabled, it drops to its default 85


PLease help :confused:

PS: this is getting ridiculous, nearly 200 pages in a 6 year old thread - can we please get out own CRT or FW900 section here at [H]ard?!
 
if kuros had a higher resolution to go along with their size, theyd be closer to a direct replacement to the FW900. panasonic is trying to pick up pioneer's slack for PDPs, and ive heard their newer ones are even equal or better than the kuro (some kuros had sub par calibration options and less than savory factory color accuracy).

i just still feel the fw900 is king, as both awesome and depressing that is.

however, beside going the plasma route, one fun alternative is a 1080p projector. sure, theyre expensive, and daytime viewing sucks, and the geometry of your room matters and theyre honestly theyre no FW900, but... at least its a massive screen with fairly good picture quality.

split-screen gaming just isnt the same as it is on a projector.
 
kohan69 said:
when the unified resolution of eyefinity is enabled, it drops to its default 85
PLease help :confused:
Click to expand...

I would be extremely pleased with it at 85 and not 60. Pushing to 95 doesn't really seem needed considering the side monitors can only push 60. i think.


Still wondering how setting all 3 of my fw900's up in eyefinity will respond. I'd want them all 1920x1200@85Hz running through the BNC cables.
 
LAGRUNAUER, you wouldn't happen to have updated 3541.mdl & CR1 *.frc files would you? I finally stopped procrastinating and decided to fine-tune one of a pair of GDM-F520 (August 2003 built Japanese models w/ sequential serial numbers) which I bought NIB from Sony back in 2008, but I've been experiencing some anomalies with around 20% of WinDAS functions. Since these were such late model F520s, it makes me wonder if the F520 WinDAS configs got updated for newer revisions somewhere in the 2002-2003 time-frame.
__________
Broken Functions:

Factory Preset (no data for sliders loaded)
Alignment of Min Frequency (unable to be saved)
Alignment of Mid Frequency (unable to be saved)
__________
Functions not working as expected:

White-balance Adjustment (Following the G2 directions results in a 0IRE of 2.0 cd/m2 (very high!) and a gamma of 1.8 because WinDAS automatically boosts one of the previously set color gun center brightness settings right before the 30IRE setting)
__________
Strangeness:

WinDAS asking for weird resolutions like 638x480, 1010x768, 1770x1440, or 1792x1344 during certain adjustments. (Is that normal?)
__________

I can ignore the broken functions, but the White-balance Adjustment not working as expected has been bothering me. I spent the past week troubleshooting and trying different things, found the cause and a workaround, but no real solution.

For reference, this monitor was in good shape prior to WinDAS. Decent black level @50 brightness, acceptable convergence, acceptable geometry, etc. It's main faults were the color temperature presets not being as exact with low dE as I'd like and some convergence issues in the corners. This was in no way a monitor that had any obvious major faults, it just needed some fine-tuning. I did backup the original settings do reverting is not an issue.

Basically the monitor had a G2 of 173 prior to WinDAS adjustment, and as I mentioned above, there wasn't any elevated black-level issue with this monitor. Surprise surprise, following the WinDAS directions for setting G2 (using sixteen 0-100 IRE gray bars) ended up with the exact same G2 of 173. Beyond that, WinDAS was determied to give me an extremely elevated black level (gamma ~1.8 & 0IRE of 2.0 cd/m2) by raising a previously set center brightness setting automatically right before the 30IRE step. Try as I might, no matter what extremes I set things to in any of the steps, WinDAS could not match the black levels of my pre-WinDAS state with a G2 of 173. While I could manually lower the COLOR settings which WinDAS automatically raised in exported DAT, this was counter-intuitive when the goal was a fine-tuned white-balance adjustment.

The only acceptable workaround I found was lowering the G2 to 158 (by using only eight 0-100 IRE gray bars instead of sixteen), so when WinDAS decided to automatically raise the center brightness for a particular color gun, it wouldn't be beyond where I set it anyway. This allowed me to complete the White-balance Adjustment to good reults with a gamma of 2.24 dE range of 0.1-0.5 from 0IRE-100IRE and good black level.

Good result, but is it safe to keep the monitor with a lower G2 (/w higher per-gun brightness settings) when it was factory set with a normal G2 (w/ lower per-gun brightness settings)? Keeping in mind it's impossible to match the factory settings with WinDAS.

Why is this happenening? Is it normal for WinDAS to raise a random color gun's center brightness setting by 20-50% right before the 30IRE step? Very minute tweaking (+/- 1) in the previous steps can change which gun's center brightness it raises, but whichever it chooses doesn't lessen the effect.

What is the native gamma which WinDAS is trying to target? With WinDAS mentioning setting to 6.5cd/m2 (+/- 1.0) during the black cutoff step, is 6.5cd/m2 supposed to end up the target for 30IRE? I did some calculations and with a 97 cd/m2 target brightness for 6500K. 30IRE of 6.5cd/m2 would result in a gamma of ~2.24, 5.5cd/m2 would result in a gamma of ~2.38, and 7.5cd/m2 would result in a gamma of ~2.12. But if this is the case, why do the Sony provided GDM-F520 ICC profiles specify a gamma of 2.5?

LAGRUNAUER, as you probably know there are two different G2 settings. The one labeled 'G2' and the secondary one at the bottom labeled something like 'G2_BKG'. WinDAS always resets that secondary G2_BKG setting to 128, but I discovered my second GDM-F520 had this set to 118 instead. That secondary G2 setting has a much greater effect on black-level and overall brightness then the primary G2 setting. I'm somewhat suspecting that lowering that secondary G2 and then performing the white-balance adjustment with a 173 primary G2 is what needs to be done, but WinDAS doesn't allow this. The primary advantage of doing this that lowering the secondary G2 doesn't affect my ability to see the sixteen 0-100IRE gray steps while lowering the primary G2 only allows me to see eight gray steps pre-adjustment. Yet without being able to use WinDAS to do a White-balance adjustment with a lowered secondary G2, I'm still stuck. But then the question is, how was white-balance adjustment on my other GDM-F520 done at factory with the lower secondary G2 if not with WinDAS? Is there some third tool beyond WinDAS/WinCAT which Sony used to configure these CRTs at factory? Since you are a tech who's been working with these CRTs for years, I hope you have some insight into all this. If you really do have updated WinDAS config files which fix all this, it would be a miracle.
 
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