What would y'all recommend? I'm in the market for a 16:10 monitor for gaming and everyday use (web, word processing, etc). Of course I'd prefer that colors be accurate but I'm not expecting a TN panel miracle. I realize IPS and *VA provide better IQ, but I'd prefer a pure gaming display, bigger the better. 120hz is all good, but I'm not crazy about the limited resolution. $500 or less. Any suggestions?
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26 or 27" for Gaming?
- Thread starter Deeky
- Start date
Samsung has a new 1ms 27" TN coming out
http://flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1286784489
It's older/smaller brother P2407H was a great gaming display
http://www.digitalversus.com/samsung-syncmaster-p2470h-p357_8128_36.htmliew:
Best to get it in your head now that it pretty much has to be a 16:9 display and image qulaity>>>>>>1" of extra screen space
http://flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1286784489
It's older/smaller brother P2407H was a great gaming display
http://www.digitalversus.com/samsung-syncmaster-p2470h-p357_8128_36.htmliew:
Best to get it in your head now that it pretty much has to be a 16:9 display and image qulaity>>>>>>1" of extra screen space
Certainly. I have no experience with16:9 tbh, but I'm moving from a 24" IPS display not suitable for gaming. I guess the thought of reduced image quality AND resolution is hard to swallow. However, I'm willing to sacrifice and inch of real estate if it means better overall IQ.
Pretty much any TN is going to be a large improvement other then viewing angles over an older IPS display as the better TN's easily double the contrast ratio of IPS displays, come with accurate colors presets and have better response times then the pre 2009 IPS panels.
Veiwing angles probably won't matter with a 27" display as those are meant to fill your field of view, unless you are one of those people who like to sit 45 degrees off angle and complain (I hope not).
Of course not, though I do worry that the viewing angle issue will be apparent on a TN screen that size at regular viewing distance, wherein the color shift would be noticeable in the corners. I certainly detect IPS glow in the corners of my 24". I can only assume it would be a similar situation with a larger TN, but I'm well aware of the limitation.
If I do decide to move to 16:9, I'd likely wait for a 120hz 27" alternative.
Viewing angles will matter with a 27" TN, unless you don't mind your colors looking noticeably different at the top and bottom. For a gaming display it probably won't bother you but it's there and you don't have to "sit 45 degrees off angle" to see it.
That was my assumption. I'll have to see it for myself before I condemn the unavoidable and predictable color shft as too brutal to live with. To me, the white glow from my IPS is noticeable and annoying when gaming in a dark environment (with a day light bulb illuminating the wall behind). I'm simply not sure which will be more irritating, but I'm thinking I'd actually prefer some top to bottom shift compared to subtle, full screen glowing.
Of course, I'd prefer there by no shift and no glow and no lag and blazing response and perfect text that doesn't require prescription glasses ... but yeah ... regardless, I need to find a monitor better suited to gaming (response/lag) and general web and word processing, as my IPS bothers my eyes when reading and isn't the best gamer display to begin with (lag/poor blacks/etc). I'd rather not use it beyond my color critical work.
TN color shift really isn't noticeable at all during games and films, only with text, displaying one color across the screen or shifting your head side to side will you most likely notice.
I say either wait for the new 1ms Samsung or consider getting 2x Samsung XL2370's as they are blazingly fast and have the deepest blacks other then the 3,000:1 C-PVA (Samsung F2380M/MX and Ezio EV2333) panels and the new BenQ VA LED monitors.
Review:
http://www.digitalversus.com/samsung-syncmaster-xl2370-p357_6587_36.html
The new BenQ VA LED monitors are being reported to have a good response time and have extremely deep blacks. They are also quite cheap as they cost under 300$. You can pre-order them @ NClX.
Review:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/video/BenQ-VW2420H--
Mayb check out the big thread
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1529765
Thanks for the links. The BenQ is definitely interesting assuming it's a fast panel. Odd that TFTCentral and other reputable sites haven't picked it up for review considering it's the first ever VA+LED. Too bad it's not 26"+ though. I'm really hoping for something larger than my current display. I want me some big screen Dead Space 2 with deep, dark blacks (and no crush, of course)!
Also, would you not recommend something in the 120hz range, especially for a gamer screen?
Also, would you not recommend something in the 120hz range, especially for a gamer screen?
Grrrrrr silly Americans. Bigger is not better!
There is no screen bigger then 24" with with deep blacks unless you get a 32" Samsung C550 LCD TV (0.04cd/m2 black depth) or pick up a refurb Samsung 275t for 1000$, but they only go slightly deeper then lets say the Samsung XL2370 (0.10cd/m2 @ 100cd/m2 luminance).
The only way to get deep blacks is with a C-PVA/A-MVA. 120hz panels are no bigger then 24" but all have their issues.
If you want a 120hz panel I would get the Acer
http://www.digitalversus.com/acer-gd245hq-p357_7352_38.html
or Glossy Asus (glossy=reflections which you may hate)
http://www.digitalversus.com/asus-vg236h-p357_8913_150.html
Heh I'm Canadian, but glad to perpetuate the stereotype. 
Thanks again for the linkage. I've been eyeballing the Asus 120hz option, and I've heard they're about to release a 27" 120hz unit .... but godDAMN if it's not an ugly beast if the pics are to be believed.
Thanks again for the linkage. I've been eyeballing the Asus 120hz option, and I've heard they're about to release a 27" 120hz unit .... but godDAMN if it's not an ugly beast if the pics are to be believed.
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Heh I'm Canadian, but glad to perpetuate the stereotype.
Thanks again for the linkage. I've been eyeballing the Asus 120hz option, and I've heard they're about to release a 27" 120hz unit .... but godDAMN if it's not an ugly beast if the pics are to be believed.
If you are willing to down size, and are Canadian, you should get the BenQ VA-LED's from NClX as they will be avaliable soon. The image quality blows away anything else on the market. How do I know this? I'm using a calibrated Samsung F2380MX which has a 3300:1 contrast ratio next to a 970:1 monitor. Difference is night and day.
http://www.pricebat.ca/search.php?q...761339:ypifup9lelf&cof=FORID:11&ie=UTF-8#1116
I would price match (only 257$) and Pre-Order 2 from NClX as they have a cheap 50$ service plan.
120hz is awesome in all (I used to have a 120hz 2233rz), but having deep blacks is much, much better for games, especially ones like Dead Space.
Well input lag on the previous Samsung C-PVA panels is under 10ms according to both Prad and Digtial Versus, the BenQ's should be under 1 frame as well. Black crush was eliminated on the last batch of C-PVA (Samsung F2380MX and Ezio EV2333)
Ezio Veiwing Angles.
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2009/review-eizo-ev2333wh-bk-part8.html#Viewing
Gamma shift is very minor on the MX compared to a typical S-PVA (Samsung 275t)
For more viewing angle stuff you can check out some of the foreign sites (all of these link are from the big thread on [H] if you want to see more.
http://www.it.com.cn/diy/monitor/review/2010/08/25/23/871113.html
http://lcd.it168.com/a2010/0825/1094/000001094846.shtml
http://www.enet.com.cn/article/2010/0830/A20100830716445.shtml
Pretty sure both panels aren't calibrated but here's the BenQ vs the Dell U2311H
http://www.pcpop.com/doc/0/569/569841_4.shtml
It's also funny you mentioned that, because I've been flirting with the notion of going the HDTV route. I've been eyeballing 32" screens, but have yet to find the ideal combination of black level and reasonable input lag (according to AVForum's "Input Lag Wars!" thread).
It's A-MVA.
So you view your monitor from way off angle? People go on and on about viewing angles on this site, but who actually views their monitor from such a ridiculous angle?
It's the image quality when viewed head on that matters. The U2311H is a joke by comparison as the BenQ triples it's contrast ratio.
Samsung C550/530/580 has low input lag, deep blacks and is currently the best 32"
Review:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-le32c530-le40c530-20100813815.htm
I have Calibrated/tested the 32C550 version as well and found I had to sit about 2.5ft back other wise there is noticeable gamma shift.
I prefer having 2x 23/24" monitors on my desk though for multitasking so I returned it.
The review you linked shows the c530 as having 14ms input lag, which is crazy for an HDTV assuming the responsiveness is half decent. Ghosting would kill the thrill. What's the diff between the 550 and the 530? The Samsung site calls the 550 "full HD", whatever that means. I'm concerned the 550 will somehow introduces additional processing that'll screw the lag numbers. Hrm.
HDTVTEST said:
C530 is cheaper and has less inputs I belive, just get the C550 it's only 600$ @ FutureShop.
No, I don't view my monitor from way off angle, but that colorshift sure as hell did not just happen at that angle. I'm only interested in PQ when viewed head on but the viewing angles still very much matter because you are viewing all the edges at an angle, especially on larger screens. Don't see what is so hard to understand about that. TNs have nasty color shift from top to bottom, VA loses some detail head on and washes out colors on the edges, IPS have glow in the corners on dark colors. All those issues are visible without even moving your head, let alone viewing from way off angles.
In short, viewing angles do matter for PQ, whether one is bothered by it or not is another story.
I absolutely agree. IPS glow is the main reason I'm looking for a new display. I can see it head-on, not only in the corners but subtly across the entire screen. Sure, it's annoying and the glow impacts IQ but that's not my motivation. I'm somehow susceptible to the glow and it REALLY irritates my eyes. I can't avoid it. Otherwise I love my IPS, mediocre contrast ratio and all ... admittedly not the best gaming display, though.
I've seen TN and VA shift head-on as well, though neither is a deal breaker for me. If I were interested in off-angle viewing for movies and such, that would be a different story.
Every once in awhile I get fed up with PC monitors and consider the HDTV alternative. Then I end up dealing with the same crap combined with NEW problems and limitations. You can't win either way! There will always be a compromise.
Yeah, true. I'm personally annoyed with viewing angle issues on every LCD tech. I've hated every TN panel I have ever used because the vertical shift is way too obvious in anything other than games. I've been using this PVA at home for some time now and loss of detail viewing head on/gamma shift are as annoying as they were from day one. Getting an IPS now that I'm also using at work and even though the glow definitely does suck, it's easily the lesser of three evils for me and thankfully it doesn't irritate my eyes like in your case.I absolutely agree. IPS glow is the main reason I'm looking for a new display. I can see it head-on, not only in the corners but subtly across the entire screen. Sure, it's annoying and the glow impacts IQ but that's not my motivation. I'm somehow susceptible to the glow and it REALLY irritates my eyes. I can't avoid it. Otherwise I love my IPS, mediocre contrast ratio and all ... admittedly not the best gaming display, though.
I've seen TN and VA shift head-on as well, though neither is a deal breaker for me. If I were interested in off-angle viewing for movies and such, that would be a different story.
Every once in awhile I get fed up with PC monitors and consider the HDTV alternative. Then I end up dealing with the same crap combined with NEW problems and limitations. You can't win either way! There will always be a compromise.
That's what I love about my plasma. There is no color shift, no loss of contrast or any kind of glow depending on the viewing angle at all. Blacks, even though still not perfectly black in a dark room, look like a totally evenly distributed very dark grey with no backlight bleeding at any area of the screen. It's a shame they are not suited for PC usage.
Hmm. Flip flopping on the HDTV issue again. I wonder if the C580 has black level performance similar to the C530/50? I've heard that PC Mode on the C530/50 introduces a buttload of lag; not the case on the C580. BUT, reviews of the C580 indicate poor black levels. So. Meh.
Going back to basics, though I'm still a little leery of 16:9 TN at 27", I'm also looking at the Asus VE278Q LED as an option to consider alongside the 1ms Samsung due out in Nov. The Asus seems to be getting favorable user reviews, though I lean toward Samsung as they at least have the decency to list a reasonable 1000:1 contrast ratio in their specs. The Viewsonic VX2739wm is also on my radar.
I'm also cautiously considering the Dell U2311H. I wonder if the "purple" glow of the E-IPS will somehow reduce or eliminate the eye strain I otherwise suffer with S-IPS and H-IPS.
I'm also cautiously considering the Dell U2311H. I wonder if the "purple" glow of the E-IPS will somehow reduce or eliminate the eye strain I otherwise suffer with S-IPS and H-IPS.
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Get out of my face Samsung... Instead of working on faster and better IPS panels so we can have cheaper and/or 3D IPS soon, or working on better OLED, they are taking the one thing about the worst LCD technology that doesn't need fixing and is its only plus and improving on it...
Where did you get that info on the C580?
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-le40c580-le32c580-20100728791.htm
Black level is 0.03cd/m2
The 27" ViewSonic is a peice of garbage. I've calibrated one and got the same results as TFT central
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1528416
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/viewsonic_vx2739wm.htm
Backlight bleed was absolutely horrendous, even during the day dark scenes in games/films and even desktop pictures were basically un viewable. Contrast is below average @ 800:1 and the color presets aren't good.
Eye Strain has everything to do with the person and not the panel. The AG coating is relatively thick on the U2311H compared to the AG coating is thicker then most TN's on the Dell and the Samsung C550 if you are worried about the ugly sparkle/screen door effect.
Pretty sure the BenQ's are using a very light AG coating with semi gloss which will be easier on the eyes, just like the C-PVA models which AG coating is very light compared to the other models I've tested like the Samsung PX2370 and ViewSonic.
The C580 info? I dunno, just random Google hits. Subjective opinions, not pro reviews or anything. Nothing that would cause me to rethink a possible purchase, just more info for the heap. Thanks for the link. I haven't read that review yet.
I saw the Viewsonic in person today. Not impressed. It's no longer shortlisted.
I put no stock in manufacturer contrast ratios. They're laughable, but it IS nice to see Samsung posting a ratio that might actually be true instead of opting for bullshit marketing numbers.
I'm very interested in the BenQ, to be sure. That said, if there's obvious ghosting or more than 1 frame of lag, I'll have a hard time giving a damn how black the blacks are.
My eye strain is very subjective, but tied directly to specific panel tech; in this case H and S-IPS. Trying to tell me otherwise is like saying alergies are all about the people, not about the peanut. True enough, I suppose, but it doesn't make anaphylactic shock any less of a thing. My eyes perceive the white glow and process it as white hot pain. I've never experienced similar discomfort with a specific panel before nor since. The AG coat has nothing to do with it. That was actually the first theory I tested.
I saw the Viewsonic in person today. Not impressed. It's no longer shortlisted.
I put no stock in manufacturer contrast ratios. They're laughable, but it IS nice to see Samsung posting a ratio that might actually be true instead of opting for bullshit marketing numbers.
I'm very interested in the BenQ, to be sure. That said, if there's obvious ghosting or more than 1 frame of lag, I'll have a hard time giving a damn how black the blacks are.
My eye strain is very subjective, but tied directly to specific panel tech; in this case H and S-IPS. Trying to tell me otherwise is like saying alergies are all about the people, not about the peanut. True enough, I suppose, but it doesn't make anaphylactic shock any less of a thing. My eyes perceive the white glow and process it as white hot pain. I've never experienced similar discomfort with a specific panel before nor since. The AG coat has nothing to do with it. That was actually the first theory I tested.
Oh, if you mean the info about the lag on PC Mode, etc.? Heard that from a very knowledgable fella on AVForum. He owned both the C530 and the C580 and ran input lag tests across the board.
EDIT: Funny. The guru I spoke to on AVForum just so happens to be the guy who wrote the C580 review you linked, Neilo TM.
EDIT2: I also note in the comments that you measured the blacks on the C580 MVA panel and managed to get 0.05cdm/2 @ 120cd/m2. I'm also using X-rite hardware with Eye-One Match 3, so I'm very interested in your results. Awesome. Now, if only I could guarantee an AUO panel for optimum lag/response ... huzzah, panel lotteries!
EDIT3: Crap. Dialing some numbers, scouting out local dealers and NO ONE has the C580. No one has even heard of it. It doesn't show up on the Samsung Canada website. I wonder if this model even made it to Canada ...? On the other hand, everyone and their mutt has the LED version, the UN32C5000, but I can't find a single scrap of credible info on the web anywhere regarding the 5 Series LEDs.
EDIT4: Pretty much confirmed it. The LNC580 does not exist. Only the LE(urope)C580. Boo. Screwed by geography.
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Yup. I was just there, chewing the fat with a few of the floor people. They have both the C550 and the C530 (if I don't want the ethernet port). I'm not sure whether the LN will have the same PC Mode lag issue as the LE. No way to know unless I try it myself. Thankfully, Future Shop has a great no-hassle return policy. It's a small TV, not hard to box up should I have to take it back, not like the 50" plasmas I returned during my hunt several years ago.
I might give it a whirl. It stands to be excellent value for money if the lag situation pans out. Every model they have is AA01, the AUO panel with the best response.
My measurements were on the 32" c550 AA01. Input lag is extremely low if not negligible in game mode when compared to a 7ms (F2380 measured by PRAD) panel.
I'm getting the BenQs when they become avaliable, you may want to wait a bit for calibration/testing which I will post on here. You said you were concerned about gamma shift before, the C550 has worse viewing angles (especially gamma shift) when I compared it to my Samsung 275t (spva) and f2380mx. You really need 2.5-3ft minmum distance with the C550.
I'm getting the BenQs when they become avaliable, you may want to wait a bit for calibration/testing which I will post on here. You said you were concerned about gamma shift before, the C550 has worse viewing angles (especially gamma shift) when I compared it to my Samsung 275t (spva) and f2380mx. You really need 2.5-3ft minmum distance with the C550.
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Cheers for that. Gamma shift is a concern but it's fairly low on my list of potential deal breakers. If a unit offers decent blacks, acceptable input lag and minimal ghosting/smearing/trailing, I can suffer a little bit of shift. If I push it all the way to the back of the desk or, better yet, wall mount it, I'll be sitting at least 4ft away. Hopefully that'll reduce or eliminate shifting.
My final decision is between the C530 and the C550. Between your numbers and the hdtvtest review, it seems that they're more or less interchangeable save for an ethernet port, ToR bezel and a few extra connections on the C550. That said, there are some who claim the electronics are totally different between the two models. I can save a few bucks going with the C530, but more research is required.
How was ghosting/etc on the AA01? I'd be gunning for the Samsung panel if I didn't think the AUO offered better responsiveness. Also, how was desktop text in Game Mode? Clear?
I've also been told that I might have to use PC Mode in order to use the C550 for anything other than games over HDMI, as that mode will improve text readability and other important factors of day to day use. Thankfully, Neilo confirmed that Game Mode on the 530/50 is a color mode and nothing more. It doesn't actually improve input lag (unlike the C580). It has been said that it offers the best color preset from which to start calibration, however. I suppose I can suffer through switching between modes if need be, depending on usage.
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I set mine to game mode when I profiled it with Eye One Match. Neilo helped me calibrate mine before David Mackenzie put the review up on his site so at the time we just assumed Game Mode would have the lowest lag. I used Neilo's 40" settings then went from there for profiling, I didn't have any problems with sharpness from 2.5ft, text was clear making it very suitable for PC use.
When using PixerPixAn it performed extremely well, It lies on the faster side between a 2ms-5ms TN. I'm used to using a 120hz panel and a panel with a lot of color streaking and can't say I had any complaints with the C550 if that helps. Wish I had taken some PixPixAn an racing car pictures for reference.
I would get the C550 AA01 if possible. I'm not up todate any more with the panel lottery but from what I recall before one was more likely to get a different panel with the lower end models. You can always get the FS guys to open one up and check, but still to be safe I recommend going with the C550.
You used his C530 40" settings? Did he also own the C550? I thought I was mistaken on that count (EDIT: Yeah, since the C550 is hard to come by in Europe). Neilo eventually returned his C530 in favor of the C580, did he not? Something to do with uneven uniformity (banding) on black and flicker/ripple on HDMI ...
I keep seeing the C530 as having approx 15ms and the C550 being lumped in with the C580 with about 32ms in Game Mode. To me, that's a notable difference. Not sure if there's truth to that. Could be that the C550 is more in line with the 15ms C530, but I have no evidence to suggest one way or the other.
Aw hell. I think I've gone as far as I can go without auditioning the damn thing myself. Now it's a matter of wrangling for price. I can probably knock it down closer to $500 if I visit a few dealers, price match and haggle my ass off.
EDIT: Seems the C550 is actually the C580 "without an HD tuner"; a version available in North America. Not sure what impact that will have on the lag numbers. I assume it'll likely rank alongside the C580.
The panel type is prominently displayed on the boxes at Future Shop. Every C550 I saw boxed up on the floor (and the demo model) were all AA01. Haven't checked the C530s yet.
Decision made. Tomorrow I'll take the plunge on the 32" C550 and go from there. I'll return it for a C530 if input lag proves to be an issue (sacrificing some PQ in the process), but I'm hoping that won't be the case. I'm not certain I'll ultimately enjoy an HDTV as a PC monitor ... but I guess there's only one way to find out.
I keep seeing the C530 as having approx 15ms and the C550 being lumped in with the C580 with about 32ms in Game Mode. To me, that's a notable difference. Not sure if there's truth to that. Could be that the C550 is more in line with the 15ms C530, but I have no evidence to suggest one way or the other.
Aw hell. I think I've gone as far as I can go without auditioning the damn thing myself. Now it's a matter of wrangling for price. I can probably knock it down closer to $500 if I visit a few dealers, price match and haggle my ass off.
EDIT: Seems the C550 is actually the C580 "without an HD tuner"; a version available in North America. Not sure what impact that will have on the lag numbers. I assume it'll likely rank alongside the C580.
The panel type is prominently displayed on the boxes at Future Shop. Every C550 I saw boxed up on the floor (and the demo model) were all AA01. Haven't checked the C530s yet.
Decision made. Tomorrow I'll take the plunge on the 32" C550 and go from there. I'll return it for a C530 if input lag proves to be an issue (sacrificing some PQ in the process), but I'm hoping that won't be the case. I'm not certain I'll ultimately enjoy an HDTV as a PC monitor ... but I guess there's only one way to find out.
Apparently PC mode is necessary for 4:4:4 (RGB?) color, which can correct some issues with colored text looking funky on certain backgrounds, not to mention overall color accuracy. I suppose it's not strictly necessary in that case. Not for gaming, at least. I'll have my 24" IPS on hand for all color critical work. I'd hesitate to attempt a print match on even the best LCD HDTV.
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Hmm. PC mode lag + no 4:4:4 in any other mode is less than desirable. Looks like I need to think on it a little more. If the damn thing were capable of 15-20ms in PC mode it'd be a no brainer ... but it's not. Estimated 40ms in PC mode. I realize it's not a HUGE deal, but it's a deal nonetheless. It may require switching between modes and color profiles on a regular basis, no to mention sacrificing color accuracy and clarity outside of PC mode. PITA. Thus ends the great HDTV for PC experiment (yet again)? It's always something.
BenQ, release the damn LED VA already! As usual, lag and responsiveness trumps overall PQ for me, but I'm still interested to see results.
BenQ, release the damn LED VA already! As usual, lag and responsiveness trumps overall PQ for me, but I'm still interested to see results.
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Oh definitely. It would be excellent for console gaming and movies. Aim for the AA01 panel. Best lag/response.
I've also been looking into the LG 32LD450. It almost certainly won't have the same PQ and black level as the C550 (it's IPS), but it apparently has 1-2 frames max of input lag (compared to the 1-3 frames with the Samsung) and better responsiveness. I'm still not certain how PC mode functions and hence 444. Still trying to get to the bottom of it. Of all the 32" I've been researching, though, these two are the only viable options for PC use, imo.
I just bought the 32LD450. Very good for PC gaming. I notice 0 lag. Just make sure you set the TV to 'just scan 1:1' so it disables any processing of the image. I then set the picture mode to gaming and disabled all enhancements. Set the sharpness to 55. Text looks good.
Thing is I also own a 37LH30 LG TV that, IMO, is even better than the 32LD450 for PC use. Can't seem to find them anymore though.
Thing is I also own a 37LH30 LG TV that, IMO, is even better than the 32LD450 for PC use. Can't seem to find them anymore though.