30 Days with Vista @ [H]

[markt435]

No, he nailed it. The real crap here is Vista. He gave the experience 28 days longer than he should have to determine the OS is crap. This isn't the only review of Vista. Funny that most other reviews pretty much say the same thing. Try again? Dude, there's nothing in Vista to revisit...

This is the kind of shit I expected as soon as I saw this was posted in the OS forum. I KNOW this post is gonna turn into a flame war so seriously, if you can't help flaming the OS like this and don't have anything constructive to add to the argument, keep it to yourself. Comments like this are so fucking old around here and we've got enough trolls already.

 

[Modred189]

Most of the negative reviews I've read have a similar rant on Vista. The main argument is that you just don't need to upgrade to it RIGHT NOW. And for new builds, XP is just more compatible with current hardware due to solid driver support. Without the proper driver support, Vista is essentially a lemon.

See that makes no sense anyway. Most new hardware is compatible, so that's a moot point.

Though i do agree with your feelings on upgrades. for MOST XP users, upgrading doesn't make much sense, but for new systems (home brew or oem), it's the best way to go.

This is the kind of shit I expected as soon as I saw this was posted in the OS forum. I KNOW this post is gonna turn into a flame war so seriously, if you can't help flaming the OS like this and don't have anything constructive to add to the argument, keep it to yourself. Comments like this are so fucking old around here and we've got enough trolls already.

QFT

 

[IronChefMorimoto]

One thing that you may want to consider is that you should revisit it and use IE and MS Office instead of Firefox and Open Office - I'm not convinced it's the operating system causing all your trouble.

First off, I preface this comment with the statement that I have not touched Vista more than 5 minutes thumbing through it on demo machines at Frys. I also went from being a 100% PC guy (home and work) to an OS X guy (100% work, 50/50 at home) when I started my new job about 2 years ago.

Secondly, I highlighted the comment above because, frankly, I call BS. If you have to use IE and MS Office on Vista to get a smooth user experience, then, somewhere, there's a failure to get it right. I'd lean towards Vista, given all the articles I've read, but I also understand that there's a responsibility for manufacturers and software developers to get onboard with the latest successor to the world's most prevalent OS. Still -- if the OS can't let you use what you use normally in XP or even OS X on a daily basis (Firefox), then what's the point? Apps like these are going cross-platform, and if the OS is at fault (again -- not saying it is) in this day and age, it's very disappointing.

Finally, and this, again, is said as a non-Vista user...what was Microsoft thinking? I had to make a switch to OS X almost 2 years ago at work (I'm on a G5 dualie now running OS X 10.4.9), and it's been good. In fact, I'm eager to see Leopard (5th revision, and each gets better) this summer -- and that's why I'm asking -- what was Microsoft thinking?

Were they really under the gun that badly to get it out the door? Macs have a 2% (approx.) market share, total? Linux still isn't on grandma's computer. What's the damned rush? Were the PC makers bitching that much about not being able to sell new computers because they couldn't get people to buy a WinXP machine under the shadow of "Vista is coming?" To me, it just seems...well...you own the damned block. Why worry about having to play the heavy and cram an unfinished new OS down folks' throats?

I say "unfinished," but I understand folks have great experiences with the OS. Does that experience carry over OUTSIDE, though, this environment? Remember -- we read this arti cle on [H] Enthusiast -- not CNN.com. Not in USA Today. The "masses" of computer users -- mom, dad, the guy across the street who needs a new computer for his kids -- are outside of this realm in which we're (a) reading this article and (b) sharing Vista experiences. If Joe Schmoe Best Buy customer buys a new Vista machine and starts having problems like those described in the article, then I'd say it's pretty damned "unfinished."

And that's why I bring up OS X -- Apple got that OS change right. They left everything behind and started fresh. And I think Microsoft "had" a chance to do that with Vista and "slowly" let everyone adopt it, develop for it, and get it right. Businesses were running fine on XP, right? Dell, HP, etc. were selling PCs -- or Apple'd have more than 2% market share. It just befuddles me -- why rush it out the door?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not a Vista hater. I'd be considering an upgrade myself (I read another article that did a 20 page walkthrough of new features -- very cool stuff), but not until they get it right. And, to me, Vista sounds like it has a longer way to go than XP did to "get on track," so to speak. Time will tell.

My 2 uninformed cents. Decent article. Please, guys -- don't flame the writer, me, or anyone else. It defeats the purpose of "discussion."

IronChefMorimoto

P.S. - Yes, I use a lot of quotes in my posts. When I type them, I do that "quote" thing with my fingers at the monitor.

 

[Modred189]

Secondly, I highlighted the comment above because, frankly, I call BS. If you have to use IE and MS Office on Vista to get a smooth user experience, then, somewhere, there's a failure to get it right.

IronChefMorimoto

But what about the open source nature of these programs. That should lend some sort of question about compatibility. The biggest difference between OSX and windows is that Windows has to run on MANY, possibly infinite, hardware combinations. So it will be more complex and these companies, open source included, should still share there responsibility for 'getting it right'.

 

[dark_reign]

See that makes no sense anyway. Most new hardware is compatible, so that's a moot point.

Yes, it may be compatible, but the lack of driver support makes it uncompatible until hardware vendors get stable drivers for it under Vista. I'm still not convinced that driver support for video and sound cards under Vista is good enough just yet.

 

[markt435]

I use Firefox and OpenOffice as my default apps and have absolutely ZERO problems with them. I just installed an Office 07 trial version to see if I should pick it up but I doubt I will cuz I'm completely happy with OO. But they REALLY need to fix the page number header problem that I have when i have to do MLA format papers. Really a pain in the ass.

 

[pigster]

Secondly, I highlighted the comment above because, frankly, I call BS. If you have to use IE and MS Office on Vista to get a smooth user experience, then, somewhere, there's a failure to get it right. I'd lean towards Vista, given all the articles I've read, but I also understand that there's a responsibility for manufacturers and software developers to get onboard with the latest successor to the world's most prevalent OS.

Instead of "leaning" one way or another, wouldn't an actual live test with different software resolve the question?

 

[IronChefMorimoto]

But what about the open source nature of these programs. That should lend some sort of question about compatibility. The biggest difference between OSX and windows is that Windows has to run on MANY, possibly infinite, hardware combinations. So it will be more complex and these companies, open source included, should still share there responsibility for 'getting it right'.

Firefox -- it's a web browser. It works fine with XP (yeah -- it crashes occasionally -- stupid restore session and auto update). And Vista isn't too much different, behind the scenes, right, from XP? My point was, and still is, simple cross platform things like a web browser that the developers can update quickly (I'm assuming that Mozilla peeps have updated it for Vista -- I may be wrong) should probably work without a hitch.

And I quoted someone (you?) saying that the review should be done using IE and MS Office. That, to me, says a lot about what you have to be willing to "give up" to get this seamless Vista experience that folks are chiming in about here. Microsoft had years to "get it right," and the reviewer is being asked to compromise with apps he may use daily that work fine in XP...on an OS that, fundamentally, is built off XP?

I still think they should have started from scratch and done the Duke Nuke'em thing -- "It's done when it's done."

IronChefMorimoto

 

[Brian Boyko]

I'll also note that the random reboot, if completely random, has me completely at a loss. The Firefox thing seems strange, though I've seen stranger.

The fact that this is probably gonna become the dominant computer OS over the course of about a year or two, I'm also curious to see if HardOCP is going to revisit the OS.

I can't answer your question on that second one.

Here's the bum pickle though. Sure, these reboots may be caused by an incompatibility with Vista and Firefox (and we have only anecdotal evidence at that.) But in either case, any application, no matter how poorly coded, should not cause the operating system to go down. That's a problem for an earlier generation of OSes 3.11/95/98 & ME. Since W2K, the system generally doesn't crash due to misbehaving apps... it may take 100% cpu utilization, or the application may crash, but typically, the OS stays up.

(Edit: Did I just type "bum pickle?" What the hell is a bum pickle? Has Windows Vista been slowly driving me mad? )

 

[maddude]

I'd like to see you test it with an ATi card. I run Vista on both my machines, one with an Ati 1950Pro, and the other has a 7300GS. The machine with the 7300GS crashes daily due to the driver. I keep holding my breath for Nvidia to release new drivers, but I'm about ready to sell the 7300GS and buy an ATi card.

 

[IronChefMorimoto]

Instead of "leaning" one way or another, wouldn't an actual live test with different software resolve the question?

Again -- if I "live test" the other software and find that Vista runs better with IE7 and MS Office, what have I learned? That I have to use Microsoft's stuff in Vista to get it to run smoothly and blame the developers of Firefox and OpenOffice for not getting their stuff updated? Yes -- it's their job, if they want their software to gain traction, to do that.

But I gathered, from the original comment, that the user was willing to accept that Vista would run better if you compromised on your user experience with not using the apps you wanted.

IronChefMorimoto

 

[Modred189]

Firefox -- it's a web browser. It works fine with XP (yeah -- it crashes occasionally -- stupid restore session and auto update). And Vista isn't too much different, behind the scenes, right, from XP? My point was, and still is, simple cross platform things like a web browser that the developers can update quickly (I'm assuming that Mozilla peeps have updated it for Vista -- I may be wrong) should probably work without a hitch.

And I quoted someone (you?) saying that the review should be done using IE and MS Office. That, to me, says a lot about what you have to be willing to "give up" to get this seamless Vista experience that folks are chiming in about here. Microsoft had years to "get it right," and the reviewer is being asked to compromise with apps he may use daily that work fine in XP...on an OS that, fundamentally, is built off XP?

I still think they should have started from scratch and done the Duke Nuke'em thing -- "It's done when it's done."

IronChefMorimoto

That's the point, it is significantly different form XP.
And in a previous post I made a similar point to one you quoted, but my biggest concern is that it's open source. Ultimately, you often get what you pay for. Using free Gaim, Xvid, forefox etc is ok, but in this case they break rule #3 of the review.

 

[Puterguru]

Meh, I did not like this review at all and I think it's a shame you called it a lemon without finding out the cause of your random reboots and data loss. That to me is like buying two new ford cars and calling them lemons because they wouldn't start, when the real problem was that you bought some bad gas.

Without finding out the cause and blaming it on the OS is just wrong in my opinion.

Flip3d is a gimmick - I don't think Microsoft has touted it as some sort of revolutionary app to help be more productive?

Many peripherals, ipod, scanners, printers would not work - How long have vendors had to write acceptable stable drivers for Vista?? Certainly not Microsofts fault.

Meh I'm done.

 

[HaMMerHeD]

I don't think I could have had a much different experience with Vista. I got Vistafree from school, and I got Office 2007 Pro free from Microsoft. I installed them both and they run fine. I haven't had any odd shutdowns. OpenOffice runs fine; as well as it ever has, which is painfully slowly, in my opinion. And Firefox works fine too (and still starts as slowly as it always has). In short, everything on Vista runs for me pretty much just as it did in XP. I don't find the UI crippling or dumbed down at all, honestly. Granted, I disabled UAC as quickly as I could get to it.

I do think calling it a lemon is a bit premature. XP was a lemon when it came out, and there were serious driver and application compatability there, too. Sure, Microsoft has had years to get it right, but I think they did about all that could be expected from them in those years. It's not their responsibility to write their OS so that everybody's software and drivers work properly on it. It's their responsibility to make sure the OS works properly. It's the driver and application developers responsibility to write or update the software to work properly on the operating system. If those developers don't want or care for the software to work on Vista, that's their choice and their fault, not Microsoft or Vista's fault.

 

[WtBadAss]

good review, but I think some of the problems encountered might have been from 3rd party drivers/programs or lack therof. I installed Vista ultimate on my home machine and had stability issues, but it ended up being an ATI driver problem. After catalist 7.3 came out problems disappeared and not so much as a hiccup yet.

 

[Modred189]

Yes, it may be compatible, but the lack of driver support makes it incompatible until hardware vendors get stable drivers for it under Vista. I'm still not convinced that driver support for video and sound cards under Vista is good enough just yet.

You still missing it. If you build a pc today, the vast majority of stuff will have decent drivers. yes there are still quirks (Catalyst 7.3 for example), but taht stuff happens in Xp too.

 

[ICOM]

This is the kind of shit I expected as soon as I saw this was posted in the OS forum. I KNOW this post is gonna turn into a flame war so seriously, if you can't help flaming the OS like this and don't have anything constructive to add to the argument, keep it to yourself. Comments like this are so fucking old around here and we've got enough trolls already.

Flame? What in the hell are you talking about. I agreed with the article because my experience with Vista was similar! There's nothing else to add to what had already been said by the vast majority of the community. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? The OS is a lemon. I just chose to use a different metaphor. Sheesh! Get over it !!!!!!.

 

[markt435]

Flame? What in the hell are you talking about. I agreed with the article because my experience with Vista was similar! There's nothing else to add to what had already been said by the vast majority of the community. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? The OS is a lemon. I just chose to use a different metaphor. Sheesh! Get over it !!!!!!.

yes..."different metaphor".

thats a new one.

 

[arman01]

couldnt disagree more with the conclusion.

the only problems i ever encountered on vista was because of ATIs drivers for the X1950XT.

As an OS, it is a vast improvement over xp and i would never use another OS.

 

[markshelby]

Not questioning the validity of the reviewer's experience, but just to offer my own:

I've used 64-bit Vista Ultimate for a couple of months on a machine that I use for office 'productivity', photo manipulation and gaming. In general my experience has been positive.

Installation was much easier than previous Windows versions (in part because I have a RAID 5 Intel "matrix" array and other "recent" hardware that XP sp2 doesn't include drivers for, and plus you know that whole annoying F6 thing).

Most of the programs I use work at least as well as they did under XP. A couple of games do not work period, but they aren't games I care about (for example King Kong won't start). For comparison, fewer games got broke upgrading to Vista than when I upgraded to 2000/XP from Win98. My obsession of the moment, SupCom, works great (two monitor setup even). The biggest software issue for me personally is that my tablet messes up Media Center on my XBox, so that I have to use the XBox interface to play music from my hard drive rather than Media Center via the Extender Whatsit.

Hardware works fine, for those vendors that have put out 64 bit drivers, and relatively speaking I have a lot of hardware and it mostly works great. However, some hardware vendors have not put out 64 bit drivers, and for those I would be SOL if I didn't have another computer running XP. These are my Canon EOS camera and my Treo phone, both of which are otherwise currently supported, recent and fairly expensive pieces of hardware from really big companies (note that my new Canon printer came with 64 bit drivers out of the box though).

My machine is at least as stable as it was previously with XP. I reboot about once a week.

BTW, I don't have any expertise in this, but my understanding is that with UAC enabled the .ani exploit is much less dangerous (though not entirely thwarted). I use it, I find it less annoying than Norton 2006.

My own conclusions regarding 64 bit Vista are (1) installation is much improved, (2) non-security related feature improvements are minimal, (3) a couple of my hardware venders are lazy and piss me off.

Cheers. BTW, system specs:

Presler dual core proc
Asus 975-based board
Matrix RAID 5 array
Nvidia 7900GTX
Sound Blaster Audigy
Canon Pixma Pro9000 printer
Treo 650 palm-based phone
Canon EOS 20D camera
Wacom tablet
Spyder 2 monitor calibrator
1600x1200 and 1280x1024 LCD panels

[Edit: I reboot once a week on average, but forced reboots from software/hardware problems are less common. The machine runs 24/7.]

 

[BrndNtrl]

I can't answer your question on that second one.

Here's the bum pickle though. Sure, these reboots may be caused by an incompatibility with Vista and Firefox (and we have only anecdotal evidence at that.) But in either case, any application, no matter how poorly coded, should not cause the operating system to go down. That's a problem for an earlier generation of OSes 3.11/95/98 & ME. Since W2K, the system generally doesn't crash due to misbehaving apps... it may take 100% cpu utilization, or the application may crash, but typically, the OS stays up.

Oh I understand where you're coming from entirely there, the system itself shouldn't crash.

I just find it interesting- I'm in a high volume retail environment and working on the Business end admittedly I run into more conflicts between software and Vista than our Consumer end. Typically my advice has been "when in doubt, go with XP", but for those who do end up going with Vista I have minimal complaints, and more and more it seems that outside consultants are willing to recommend businesses go ahead and use Vista.

I also forgot- we run Firefox as the default browser on a Vista Home Premium workstation used to order customer product. Never had a problem with it, so I doubt Firefox is the problem.

Edit: Did you try an OS repair or reinstall and see if that fixed the issue? System corruption also seems like a distinct possibility.

 

[Brian Boyko]

Thanks for writing in - your criticisms of the article are well thought out, well reasoned and very valid. I'm going to try to address them individually so that you can understand some of my thoughts here.

Well written and researched article. There are some questions and things you did not address, I think.
First of all, you are running Nvidia cards in both systems. Did you upgrade to the newest drivers? And given that there have been so many issues with Nvidia drivers, how do you know that your OGL problems don't originate there?

Yes, we upgraded to the latest Vista drivers for Nvidia on both systems.

Second, "As Emporer Septim was about to speak to the main character, he fell through the floor, never to be seen again, and the game was unable to move forward." ROFL.... Sithis was hungry.

I'll firmly admit to being an Oblivion addict, though I haven't been playing quite so much recently.

Third, I felt that your trouble shooting attempts were slightly anemic compared to your Ubuntu experiences.Someone above mentioned your command line efforts etc, never did I read (except with Quake4) about you dl'ing patches or drivers.

Sadly, that's mostly because there weren't any patches or updated drivers to download. Keep in mind the testing period was from Jan 30 to March 2, and there have been a number of patches and driver updates since then - but at the time, they didn't exist. Keep in mind, also, that troubleshooting in Linux meant following a long and tedious list of commands and while there was almost always a solution that did not mean that the solution was easy. Vista's solutions were either nonexistent or a matter of download and install.

4: It seemed like the VAST majority of your problems came from either open source software (Gaim, Xvid, Prime95) or incompatible software (Adobe CS2, Quicktime). I don't believe these were fair choices, as OpenSource is going to ALWAYS be a little behind when it comes to releases for new OS's, due to its nature.

And using incompatible software is ok, but blame the manufacturer (Adobe or Apple, especially when the manufacturer SAYS it won't support Vista), not the OS. That's just walking into a wall and acting surprised it's there.

Don't get me wrong - Quicktime was incompatible and Apple acknowledged that fact. But no (non-virus) application, no matter how badly coded, should cause the OS to go down. That doesn't happen with XP, and hasn't happened since Windows 95/98/ME.

Same with your printer. If you were a person considering buying Vista, especially a [H] reader, you would research these things. It happened to me, when I upgraded, i knew that my scanner would be SOL (it was made for winME, shudder, and I had to force the drivers to work in XP), and I bought a new one. So to expect a printer that has no available drivers to work is a little odd.

That's also true but remember that the premise of the article was to test it with "real world" hardware - the things I had accumulated over the years, to try to get a rough idea of how much hardware wouldn't work. The HP printer is actually one of the newer peripherals I have - but it was still bought about 10 months ago.

And for the love of [H], WHY were you surprised that a BETA (Joost) with known issues:
http://www.joost.com/forums/p/2007/03/does-joost-run-on-windows-vista/
wouldn't run!? It's a Beta, and to factor it into this review is irresponsible.

I wouldn't call it irresponsible but you're right about it being a beta application. Mostly, however, I was trying to illustrate that applications which work fine in XP - including beta software - won't necessarily work in Vista. Or in other words, I was trying to point out Vista's backwards compatibility - or lack of same.

However, even as a power user I find the new navigation system and file structure an improvement. Being able to find all my saved files in one area (my pc's name in the start menu), divided into docs music etc, each with its own Start entry is awesome.

I did go into the UI a bit and found that there were improvements but navigation was disconcerting. Maybe it's because I didn't get "used" to the new system, but keep in mind that I'm a guy who has used 4 different OSes over the past 6 months...

I like breadcrumbs, but I don't like how the system tends to get in your way when you want to do folder browsing the "old fashioned way."

6: Finally, you COMPLETELY disregarded or skimmed over some of the best new technologies and features, and you broke one of your own rules!
You mentioned ReadyBoost in ONE sentence, never stating what kind of usb drive or flash card you used, how long you tried it (it takes time to be efficiently populated) etc...

We didn't test ReadyBoost. Perhaps we should have, but I've only got one USB flash drive and I was actually using it for data (and it's rather full!)

You never mentioned Superfetch and if you saw any improvements over time. You never mentioned the 'breadcrumb trail' sytle bar when maneuvering through your files (THIS is HUGE for me).

No, I did not see any improvements with responsiveness over time. As for the breadcrumb trail explorer, I felt that it was an improvement, and mention it (though I don't think I use the term "breadcrumb.") However, I thought the UI got in my way more often than it helped. UI decisions are necessarily subjective.

You don't mention windows defender, contacts or calendar (built in).

The problem with mentioning Windows Defender is that it's very hard to prove a negative. Like Lisa Simpson claiming that "this rock keeps away bears" I can't say that Windows Defender keeps away spyware just because we didn't encounter any.

Contacts or Calendar - maybe I should have, but I don't have that many meetings to remember. Work 9-6, Therapy Tuesdays at 7... As for contacts - I usually handle them all through Gmail. When you switch OSes as often as I do, it's useful to look at Software As A Service solutions.

You don't mention your performance scores (one was given in a pic, but i don't know which pc it represents).

No, I really didn't think my performance scores were important. The 4.0 was for Whakataruna, but ultimately, I wasn't concerned about my hardware - which was a constant - and I wasn't sure exactly what advantage "performance scores" are if you already know what your hardware is capable of.

You don't mention meetingspace

Which is for laptops. Neither system I had was a laptop.

or Journal.

I don't even know what that is.

You Skimmed past the games section without talking much about it. You mention using 64-bit version of Vista but don't discuss the 64-bit version of IE7 that's included. You elect to use GAIM instead of the built in messenger despite rule number three! CHEATER! lol.

Games: Yes, this was a skim, acknowledged as such. I've been told that Vista Gaming was possibly going to be a separate article later on, so I didn't want to step on toes.

IE7: I'm really not sure what I was supposed to look for in 64-bit IE7 that wasn't in 32-bit IE7.

GAIM: I think you're being facetious, but, if I recall correctly, Windows Messenger only uses one protocol. I've only got one friend on MSN - the rest are on AIM, GTalk, Jabber, or Yahoo.

Ultimately, this was a good start, but it sounds like you used it for 2 weeks and stopped. The article does not reflect 30-days worth of usage.

Looking over your criticisms, I can see how it may come across as a bit incomplete, as I didn't use all of Vista's new features - only the ones I normally would have used. I do believe, though, that my overriding consideration in the evaluation was the stability issue. An operating system's core job is to enable other programs to run. If the OS goes down, it is no longer capable of doing that job - and ReadyBoost, Calendar, Messenger, Flip3d, or any of the other features added to Vista wouldn't have helped.

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

Meh, I did not like this review at all and I think it's a shame you called it a lemon without finding out the cause of your random reboots and data loss. That to me is like buying two new ford cars and calling them lemons because they wouldn't start, when the real problem was that you bought some bad gas.

Without finding out the cause and blaming it on the OS is just wrong in my opinion.

Flip3d is a gimmick - I don't think Microsoft has touted it as some sort of revolutionary app to help be more productive?

Many peripherals, ipod, scanners, printers would not work - How long have vendors had to write acceptable stable drivers for Vista?? Certainly not Microsofts fault.

Meh I'm done.

But you have to consider, that 30 days is about as long as your average consumer is going to evaluate their own experience with something that they just bought and started using out of box. This is about the time period that they will get frustrated, angry, and otherwise unsatisfied with the money they've invested. Sure, you have to consider all the facts, but the truth is, that is what an enthusiast does. Joe Schmoe Consumer for the most part, does not. For Joe Schmoe, it either works, or he gets angry. Joe Schmoe does not take the time to find out what is wrong. Joe Schmoe takes the time to call up tech support, be it a family member, Geek Squad (shudder), their local PC tech, or someone at Microsoft, and demand answers. They will not take apart their computer or dissect their OS just to figure out what is wrong. The same idea applies to a car belonging to a person who has neither the tools or the knowledge to troubleshoot their own issues - they will take it to the dealership, a local mechanic, or someone they trust in general with the repairs and maintenance of their vehicle. I don't think this article was written to dissect the OS and say "AHA! There's the problem!". That is Microsoft's job, as well as the job of any developer who intends on putting out a product for the Vista platform (and arguably the Windows platform in general).

As for Flip3d, I think a lot of Microsoft's developments for Vista were touted to increase productivity. I couldn't tell you if Flip3D was one of them, but I do know that overall it seemed like the big push on it was "IT WILL MAEK UR WORK GO FASTAR!!!111ONEONE"

As for support, if I'm not mistaken, the [H] or some other tech news site had posted a link to an article where Microsoft had been coming together to work with various vendors to develop working drivers for their hardware. I couldn't tell you if any specific ones were listed offhand, but if there was any truth to that article, then that would mean that vendors have had little to no reason to not have working drivers for Vista by launch, or at least a working beta, considering Microsoft gave direct insight into Vista so that they could make something. Now obviously a two week pow-wow in a lab isn't going to develop some perfectly working third party software right off the bat, but I would think that it would at least make for -something-. I mean, Vista release candidates have been out for how long before launch? Doesn't that do anything for a developer?

But I guess it's because I'm not a software guy to know the headache that it can be. All I do know is, me personally? I'm giving it at least year, just like I did with XP. If Vista is treated like any other version of Windows, a service pack will eventually be put out, and all the shelf versions of Vista will come with it. Rather than sit and download it over and over again with every reformat, I could just buy it and be done with it.

 

[Brian Boyko]

But what about the open source nature of these programs. That should lend some sort of question about compatibility. The biggest difference between OSX and windows is that Windows has to run on MANY, possibly infinite, hardware combinations. So it will be more complex and these companies, open source included, should still share there responsibility for 'getting it right'.

The issue is backwards compatibility. It's fine if Microsoft positions Vista as a new OS that requires all-new programs, but it really should be more transparent in their marketing material since backwards compatibility does not work well at all.

 

[Brian Boyko]

I still think they should have started from scratch and done the Duke Nuke'em thing -- "It's done when it's done."

I have a profound new respect for 3DRealms...

 

[FrgMstr]

I think Brian gave the OS MORE than a fair shake. Just remember because you have had a different experience, it in no way invalidates ours. If all Vista experiences were identical, then there would be no need to write one word about it IMO.

For me personally, I have yet to see any reason to upgrade. As for gaming. Bioshock, Crysis, and a couple other DX10 titles I am looking forward to will not be out till 2H'07, so there is no need from a gaming perspective for me to upgrade till then. Hopefully many of the bugs will be worked out by then and there will be a reason to upgrade.

 

[Brian Boyko]

Also, keep in mind that one of the reasons for the driver holdup is that drivers now have to be "signed" by Verisign, a third-party company. Many hardware manufacturers don't want to pay the third party company the fee to have their drivers approved so that they can be used on Vista - at least, not all at once, and some older hardware is just going to go by the wayside because of this.

 

[xxaaqq]

Right-o. I chimed in not to say the review is invalid, false or even incomplete. I just wanted to point out that it's not fair to say the OS is "unfit for any user" because there are lots of users it is quite fit for.

Regarding some comments... I use Nvidia hardware (even Creative hardware!), an old-ish HP printer and Firefox as my primary (heck ONLY) browser, with plugins like FoxyTunes and the Web Developer's Toolbar. I used Photoshop CS2 regularly. I also have my data hard drives on a RAID 1 (mirrored) array. I don't, however, have experience with OpenOffice.

I have not had any issues with stability, running games, printing (no drivers had to be installed, to be fair I don't remember if I tried scanning yet, but I think I did), and I've browsed lots of JavaScript intensive sites (lots of Web 2.0 including some home brew ajax applications).

The absolutely most annoying thing I do need to point out, though, is that any time a web page uses Java or Quicktime, the interface blinks to revert to non-Aero. That is horrible, and I can't imagine why it's necessary.

Another nuisance has "randomly started" is that my remote desktop into Vista has developed a weird lag of maybe 30 seconds before going in, and then working normally.

It is definitely wrong that an application would crash the OS. One of the primary goals of Vista was to prevent that exact thing. I haven't really seen application crashes and no OS crashes at all. For an application to crash the OS in this case, it would seem likely that it was, in fact, hardware related.

Flip3D gets some oohs and ahhs but it is still just like Alt+Tab but with a new visual representation. Things like Expose actually save time by instantly presenting all applications on one screen, rather than still having to scroll through them.

My "conclusion" is that Vista is good enough to (slowly?) gain momentum, so I do hope that things get better before they get worse. XP2 really is a solid system, and it's a shame tweaks like IIS7, usable search and whiz bang interfaces aren't built on top of something like that. But if the architectural improvements designed to separate applications from the operating system, and the graphics system from the rest actually pan out and start to shine, maybe it'll all start to seem worth it. Until then, I don't blame people for clinging to XP2, while I encourage crazy early adopters to jump in and help beta test Vista, because you might actually like it.

 

[wussboy]

Like Lisa Simpson claiming that "this rock keeps away bears" I can't say that Windows Defender keeps away spyware just because we didn't encounter any.

I think you'll find that Lisa Simpson's rock kept away tigers, not bears. That may have been what was causing the crashes.

 

[jimguy1]

Add my name to those who really like Vista. I did a fresh install on a self-built Core2Duo system (MSI NVidia 7900 GS and ATI 650) and allowed Vista Update to find the correct drivers, including a driver for the ATI 650 PVR which some say is problematic on Vista. Not for me! Everything works like a charm and is silky smooth.
The point is...you don't have to listen to the reviewers. Just remember the KISS principle, don't try an install over XP, avoid odd-ball codecs and god knows what crap aps. you may have installed in XP, go with Vista-certified aps....for example, I use Slysoft's stuff and it all works great. I have Office 2007 on it too. I have zero complaints and none of the negative issues mentioned in the review.

 

[havand]

Instead of being everything to everyone of all time period by gone, Microsoft should have said 'we're starting over. old windows programs won't work, we're redoing the entire thing.' They should have started with a clean slate and made it known that old programs/programming WOULD NOT WORK on the new operating system. Do away with the god aweful registry and done something useful. Instead they've spent billions (sickening, no?) on something that just provides visual improvements?

Frankly, i'm bored with XP. I don't need another operating system. I just don't. But, I spend so much time on my computer, i've actually become bored with it. I was waiting for Vista to fix this, but the image shaping up is that it isn't even worth my time. Many of the original touted features have been cut from it over the years to the point that it provides little incentive, especially at the going price. I may start looking toward linux or OSX. And believ me, I HATE osx. So, this is a huge mental step for me to even be considering. *sigh*. Microsoft, you guys should have realized you messed up, eatin the few $billion loss and took the time and money to make something worthwhile. Don't you think it is kind of cruel to make people pay for your mistakes?

 

[Brian Boyko]

I think you'll find that Lisa Simpson's rock kept away tigers, not bears. That may have been what was causing the crashes.

Normally, I would look this up but I'm supposed to be focusing on my day job right now.

 

[ICOM]

Add my name to those who really like Vista. I did a fresh install on a self-built Core2Duo system (MSI NVidia 7900 GS and ATI 650) and allowed Vista Update to find the correct drivers, including a driver for the ATI 650 PVR which some say is problematic on Vista. Not for me! Everything works like a charm and is silky smooth.
The point is...you don't have to listen to the reviewers. Just remember the KISS principle, don't try an install over XP, avoid odd-ball codecs and god knows what crap aps. you may have installed in XP, go with Vista-certified aps....for example, I use Slysoft's stuff and it all works great. I have Office 2007 on it too. I have zero complaints and none of the negative issues mentioned in the review.

I'll add your name to a sticky note along with everyone else...

 

[Langly]

I think this review is a great review.

First, it really goes to show what happens with a non-computer savy user.

What happens when your grandma's vista machine she bought randomly crashes? Is she going to know where to find the way to fix it?

Not everyone knows a lot about computers. A fix for a common everyday problem in an OS shouldn't have to be looked up, only to hit a brickwall.

Vista isn't ready for the everyday consumer. Drivers are a big issue, I have a 8800 nVidia needs to step it up. How many people use a HP printer? I know my printer doesn't have vista drivers from HP yet.

The bottom line is that Vista should be what XP was to the average person, an easy stable solution that is secure as well.

I don't know if we should call this a lemon yet, maybe vista will turn out to be like a fine wine. Its going to take some time to age til perfection.

 

[techie81]

I really wanted to like Vista, really. I installed it and to be honest I have had nothing but issues with it. I think the article was right on the money showing these issues. I had to disable UAC to get some programs working correctly and frankly after I did that I asked myself "whats the point?" if I cant use these great new security features then its just XP with a new look. My antivirus doesn't work correctly and really I don't want to switch, I like my antivirus. I have issues with my mic and teamspeak, Vista gets confused about what it wants to do with it. The ATi drivers are OK but not acceptable IMHO. Creative drivers are lousy and I can hear a definite lose of audio quality.

These are just some of the issues I have encountered in the last month. I will give it a little more time but I will go back to XP. It (XP) simply works and does everything I need it to do.

To the people who defend Vista with their lives its OK, you love your OS and that's great if it works for you - not everyone has the same experiences IE programs and games - not everyone is going to be happy. Enjoy your new OS while some will go back to XP. I know I need to wait until Vista matures.

 

[JVC]

microsoft did what we wanted, what we demanded. release vista before it was ready. it's not ms fault.

 

[markt435]

microsoft did what we wanted, what we demanded. release vista before it was ready. it's not ms fault.

eh...i dunno. but i do agree somewhat. a lot of the industry was crying OMG RELEASE IT ALREADY after all the delays. and then when it comes out, they go and review it and say its not really ready to be used full time. lol kinda funny when you think about it.

 

[FrgMstr]

I have added this statement to the conclusion page.

Editor's Note: The fact is that Vista is far from "unfit for any user," and this statement by the author is simply incorrect. If you read the discussion thread linked below you will find there are many Vista users that are having positive experiences. The author's experiences are his own and I think a great look into just some of the complications that can come with upgrading to Vista. Some have had worse experiences and some have had better.

 

[Kitsune]

Okay, look, this really needs to be spread as far and as wide as possible: If the 'allow' popups annoy you, DO NOT TURN OFF THE SECURITY. USE A NON-ADMINISTRATIVE USER ACCOUNT.

You get the 'popup every minute' syndrome if you're using an admin account because Vista is blocking any potentially dangerous system access, and when you have admin power, that happens often.

Run as a normal user account and you'll only receive occasional prompts to elevate to admin privileges when doing things that require it, like installing programs and updates. Pretty much the same activities that make OS X prompt you to elevate to admin.

 

[oneils]

Good read.
Honestly, the only thing I care about is Counterstrike Source. Brian indicated that he can't connect to a server.

I just installed Vista, and was going to install steam tonight. Does anyone know of a fix for this? If not, I'll seriously have to consider going back to xp.