Advanced gigabit networking and segmentation for LAN (VLAN) on the cheap.

D

Dew

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Jun 23, 2003
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Oh, here is the setup. Our Lan has started to make a $5 donation per person mandantory to be eligable for door prizes. This should bring anywhere from $200-700/month for lan improvement.

Our current setup consists of a hodge podge of two Dell 2324 switches (24x 10/100, 2x 1000, unmanaged), Netgear 16 port gigabit (umanaged), and misc other switches(10/100, gigabit).

It is all served up using a custom linux setup that load balances the (four) connections(Cable Modems, DHCP) to the net over four cable modems(I'll explain how on Sunday, tonight/tomorrow is the trial by fire).

What I want to do is make the most use of the money we get in for lan improvement.

Here is the plan:
$1600 - 6x Dell 2724 (24 port Gigabit, webmanaged) - Phased in as needed
$400 - Linksys RV016 - Load balance up to seven connections (To replace the linux box that I'm hacking up for this, I want the setup to be simple in the future as I will only be with the LAN for another 6months or so.)

Do I even need to consider network segmentation when I'm looking at a lan that should never exceed 150 computers and is all gigabit? If so, what is the best(most cost effective) for doing the VLAN routing at gigabit. This is a gaming LAN, so all the computers need to talk to each other.

Keep in mind that as we phase in more switches, we spend around $300 on power cables to support that computer cluster. I figure the cost per seat is $20-25 between power and network. I chose the 2724 because it supports trunk aggregation on up to four ports, meaning a minimum of 2gigabit backbone if I daisy chain the switches.

Suggestions? Comments?

Things to keep in mind:
Whatever we don't spend on gear for the LAN will go to buy more prizes for the LAN. This is a completely non-profit venture. If we are regularly pulling in $500/month that just means we buy more equipment and game servers along with more prizes.
 
I would wager that the cost of a router that can route at gigabit speed is likely beyond your scope. You may look into a layer3 switch with copper gigabit ports (Cisco 3750G-24T comes to mind); they will do all the "simple" routing that you'll need, without the added cost of a real gigabit router. However, with only 150 machines, broadcasts won't be too bad, so I'd leave them all in the same subnet/VLAN and make it cheap & simple.
 
150 machines? That's it? Single VLAN. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. This isn't a difficult setup.
 
Fint said:
You may look into a layer3 switch with copper gigabit ports (Cisco 3750G-24T comes to mind);
Click to expand...

3750?

Why pay extra for stackwise if he's not gonna use it? You can get a 3560 instead.
:D
 
What you proposed is fine - you don't need to spend thousands on CISCO gear or even really worry about network segmentation at this point. Gigabit routing will cost you an arm and a leg - and even over four cable modems there is no reason for that. Go with the RV016 you thought of and use that solely as your internet gateway then get those dell switches or some refurb cisco gig switches from ebay to provide for your clients.
 
unix_foo said:
3750?

Why pay extra for stackwise if he's not gonna use it? You can get a 3560 instead.
:D
Click to expand...

IIRC, the 3560 has no gigabit copper ports.
 
at some point, you will hit the limit of how many hosts you can have in one subnet.

does anyone suggest used a linux box and configuring it to be a router with some gbit NICS in them?
 
I own a 2724 myself. They are great switches, but you need to know their limitations.

They are what I would like to call partially managed.

Things you can do.
See port counters ( To tell people they have a crappy NIC, Cable or Driver)
Make Vlans (Segregate Server from client networks, but this may not be a good idea in a gaming vlan. some games when looking for a "lan" game only broadcast to the local network)
Jumbo Frames (good for those people who like to share large files.. Heck even if you have a new 200 MB patch or demo it can speed things up when 100 people go to grab it..)


Things you cant do.
You wont be able to SNMP Manage ( You wont be able to see some things you may want to.)
You wont be able to get into the web interface on a jumbo enabled client. ( if you have jumbo's enabled on the client machine you wont be able to get into the web interface.. Turn them off to get in)
You wont be able to determine what MAC address is on what port ( Ohh my god you don’t know how nice this is until you get 150 people in a room and 1 or 2 of them have a virus. Running around screaming who has 192.168.1.156 for 30 to 40 minutes is a nightmare, where having the IP and then finding it's MAC address and being able to track it down to a single port in seconds is very useful. The Web interface does not support this, where other managed switches may.)

All the above statements were made thinking about "This is a gaming LAN"...
 
killerasp said:
at some point, you will hit the limit of how many hosts you can have in one subnet.

does anyone suggest used a linux box and configuring it to be a router with some gbit NICS in them?
Click to expand...

I thought he said "should never exceed 150 computers". I wouldent suggest a router until he get's about 200, then he can start looking at it. Even then if it's all gigabit through and through you may not care depending on how many packets per second and how the switches are handling all the broadcasts. You could increse the subnet mask and see how it go's. Most people don't suggest going above the 256, but once again it's all gigabit.. I remember MS telling us we shouldent run more than 25 printers off of one server It ran dam near perfectly with 500 on NT 4, and now with over 900 on 2003. It's a matter of how much processing power, and throughput you have/need.
 
Why are you considering VLANs? That means you'll need a device to route between them at wire speed or none of the VLANs will be able to talk to each other. Thats usually bad for LAN parties.

150 users is a piece of cake. Stick with the Dell switches, or you could even go get Linksys or DLink switches for this. You might even see a discount if you go for the higher port densities like 48 per switch.

Also, I would not daisy-chain your switches. Buy one extra switch and uplink all your switches into that....hub-and-spoke topology. That'll keep the distances pretty short and probably help with bandwidth to some extent, as traffic from switch 1 wont have to clog the pipes for 4 other switches before it gets to switch 6.
 
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I don't want to exceed 24ports because the plan if for 23 computer clusters to maximize port and power density.

What would you recommend in place of the 2724 that falls in the same price range?

Who has what IP address will be a non-issue since we use ALP which allows me to see which user has what IP. I'll have a captive portal in the future that will be tied to the ALP username and password. So when they try to access the internet, the first page they come to makes them sign into ALP.

Mainly the VLANs was my concern about chatty windows boxes, but like other have said, because of the size of the lan and the fact that its gigabit, should be a non-issue.

This might be a better question for the Storage forum, but what is the best setup for a patches server? (To maximize throughput) Raid0 Raptors? Maybe in the future an IRAM2 with 8gigs? Or better, one of the servers having 8gigs of ram and setup a ram drive(Linux)?
 
Fint said:
IIRC, the 3560 has no gigabit copper ports.
Click to expand...

All of the 3560's have SFP Ports that can accept Copper or Fiber modules, plus the G models have all gigabit copper ports...
 
So you want to migrate a 150 person lan into gigabit to all users? *ponders

Dlink makes stackable switches that are 10 gigabit linked with each other, and have optional 10 gigabit uplinks (could trunk those together for like 40 gbit/s interlinking)
 
Nacho said:
So you want to migrate a 150 person lan into gigabit to all users? *ponders

Dlink makes stackable switches that are 10 gigabit linked with each other, and have optional 10 gigabit uplinks (could trunk those together for like 40 gbit/s interlinking)
Click to expand...


The idea here is to stay within the affordable price relm. A $3000 switch doubles the cost of the project.

I'm thinking a DGS-1224T as a backbone switch. Can you do link aggregation on all ports with this(3 port clusters x 8)? If so, that would provide a 3 gigabit backbone. If my users saturate a 3gigabit line I have other issues besides bandwidth.
 
Yea you can do link aggregation, I have one. Considering if your running a 24 port 100mbit switch with 2-4 uplinks, you will be fine. (that is unless your having gigabit to everyone)

I'll run some tests on the 1224t once I get it hooked up, waiting for new cabling to come first. (cat-6)
 
The DGS-1224T is about $315 lowest on froogle, while the dell 2724 is about $260. and the Dell does link aggreation as well.

What does the DGS-1224T get you over the 2724, except for $50 less in your pocket? From a quick look they look the same . (This is a question not a flame.. I'm just curious why you chose the D-link)
 
moetop said:
The DGS-1224T is about $315 lowest on froogle, while the dell 2724 is about $260. and the Dell does link aggreation as well.

What does the DGS-1224T get you over the 2724, except for $50 less in your pocket? From a quick look they look the same . (This is a question not a flame.. I'm just curious why you chose the D-link)
Click to expand...


The 2427 only supports 4 ports for link aggregation. Unless that means 4 links per aggregate, that's fine.
 
Page 5 "Up to six Aggregated Links may be defined, each with up to four member ports, to form a single Link Aggregated Group (LAG)."

So yes 4 aggregate ports per group, max of 6 groups.
Taking a closer look though the D-link supports SNMPv1 where the DELL does not. Going back to my earlier statement, that It's awefully nice to be able to see what MAC is registered to a particular port is really nice when tracking a virus. It may be worth the extra Money if SNMPv1 can provide that through a MIB walk or the web interface!


ALTHOUGH I do go to the Simulator for the DGS-1224T , and I see NO configuration for Aggregation. NOTE: I also don't see where you can view the MAC per port in the web interface, but it still may be a SNMP MIB..

Now I'm really confused! :confused:
 
Now I'm confussed whether to keep this thing.. Might as well go fetch a cisco. Maybe I didnt catch the fine print.

Hmm.. *ponders*

Any other input?
 
While I work on Cisco all day long and they do make a good product that is very feature rich, I don't think Cisco makes a switch for $750 like dell does (5324) that would probably have all the features you need. (If we are still talking large Lan partys.) A Cisco 2960G-24TC are about $2000

The Dell 2724 is still a great switch for the money (About $260), I just wish it had SNMP.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. My experience with Dell switches has shown them to be solid switches for plain network connectivity. Ask them to do too much, and they'll often bitch, moan, and die. For things like spanning-tree, link aggregation, and SNMP monitoring (if the particular switch supports it) they are great. If you're doing heavy VLANs, QoS, 802.1x or port-based MAC security then you need to look elsewhere.

Have you checked out HP? ProCurves are damn good switches. They're giving Cisco a lot of headaches right now.
 
I think we have all gone a bit to far considering the OP said "This is a gaming LAN" for 150 people. Suggesting $2000 switches and switches that have POE are a bit much.. :) Heck a $750 switch considering the use seems a bit excessive..

What were we talking about again? :)
 
Like I said. The Dells are fine for what he wants to do, and DLink or Linksys would probably be fine too. It just needs to be stated that if there is a good possibility of getting into more advanced features (and there probably isn't for a LAN Party facility), then he needs to look into Cisco/HP/3com/Extreme/Foundry class equipment.

But the bottom line is: Dell/Linksys/DLink will all more than likely suit his needs just fine.
 
Boscoh said:
Like I said. The Dells are fine for what he wants to do, and DLink or Linksys would probably be fine too. It just needs to be stated that if there is a good possibility of getting into more advanced features (and there probably isn't for a LAN Party facility), then he needs to look into Cisco/HP/3com/Extreme/Foundry class equipment.

But the bottom line is: Dell/Linksys/DLink will all more than likely suit his needs just fine.
Click to expand...

I totaly agree
 
Thanks for the advice, looks like my original plan will be what we go with plus more 2724 switches so we can have a 4gbit backbone.
 
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