AM2 vs Socket Socket 939 - benchmarks!!!

I personally think it's a good thing. It will be a simple quick transition. The building blocks are now in place for a more aggressive overhaul.

Look at when Prescott got released. New socket, new process, new design. I think it was too much at one time. Which has gotten Intel in trouble a couple other times prior to that as well.

What AMD seems to be doing, is gradully making the transition. I think that is a good thing. The next thing on the map is the 65nm process change. Performance wont be drasticly better. It'll prolly clock higher, but clock on clock it wont be all that much better. Once they get the 65nm transition under there belt, we'll see K8L. That is where the culmination will be.

It actually reminds me alot of the Athlon 64 transition, with the only difference being that they replaced the socket with the new release, where as they are replacing the socket early this time. Could it be that AMD learned it's lesson with socket 754?
 
Lol, I would like to see AM2 pitted against Conroe. But it also looks like that the AM2 achieves a worse framrate in Doom 3, Fear and Splinter Cell. If so is it worth it to wait for AM2 or should I be waiting for Conroe. Lastly does anyone know when is Conroe even coming out? :confused:
 
Maybe I am being st00pid here BUT why would anyone expect a performance difference? They are both rated as 4800+ with AMD's somewhat arbitrary scheme.

ALSO, I am a firm-believer in short-term sacrifice for long-term gain. The switch to DDR2 will not bring any initial performance increase but will provide more memory bandwidth for allowing for a greater number of cores in the future. It sounds like a great long-term plan.
 
falcon6268 said:
Lol, I would like to see AM2 pitted against Conroe. But it also looks like that the AM2 achieves a worse framrate in Doom 3, Fear and Splinter Cell. If so is it worth it to wait for AM2 or should I be waiting for Conroe. Lastly does anyone know when is Conroe even coming out? :confused:
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Come on, get real..... It is worse by .6 FPS total combined for those 3 games.....That is not worse. It is even.


This is a socket refresh not a CPU refresh. The fact that two AMD x2 4800+s are performing the basically the same (excepte the ScienceMark Gulfstream numbers) means that AM2 has the kinks worked out of it and it doesn't look like we are losing anything in the transition.

Honestly, I think the other big thing we get from this transistion is the ability to have higher TDP.
 
how is it some of you real smart guys compare a SOCKET to a PROCESSOR? :confused:
 
My take on the whole socket AM2 thing is "why create and release a new architecture that has no increase in performance at release?" I'm sure hoping that AM2 will really kick butt in the long run, but if there is no significant initial boost in performance why should I want to upgrade now? S939 gave us a small bump in perfromance over s754 with dual channel ram but not enough to make me want to jump on the s939 bandwagon. Now we'll get maybe a 5%-10% increase again. Sorry, but its still not enough to make me want to jump ship just yet, but that's just me. I'll wait until there is a significant boost, then I'll change horses.
 
BigMacAttack said:
My take on the whole socket AM2 thing is "why create and release a new architecture that has no increase in performance at release?"
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It is not about an immediate perfomance increase, and I do not see a real reason to upgrade a Socket 939 system to AM2 in the near future. The point of the transition is to support DDR2 for the future. Since 939/AM2 chips have an integrated memory controller, it makes perfect sense to transition to the new socket now, while moving toward DDR2.

Put it this way: If AMD wanted to support DDR2 on socket 939, we would all need new motherboards, CPU's and ram anyway.
 
My guess with the socket change and dd2 is to lay a new solid foundation so AMD can create a new architecture on it. The performance improvements is not enough for me to sell my setup and upgrade... I'll wait at least 2 years and see where AMD is going before taking a decision.
 
I understand completely - it is an architecture for the future. My point is gimme something now to make me want to upgrade now. Its bad business to release something that gives no immediate benefit. You'll likely lose money until you can show a strong increase in performance.
I've turned down many a job that was only going to offer me the same amount of money but promised a good future. Promises are ethereal. Give me something in my hand right now that will make me want to switch. In other words "make me an offer I can't refuse." When they finally get to that point I'll upgrade.
 
its not about you and your s939 boards its about everyone else with their (insert socket here)

if you could buy a s939 board ram and cpu or an am2 cpu ram and mobo at the same time which would you choose? once am2 come out given a choice between the two I would take am2 if everyting else was equal simply to future proof myself.


seems simple to understand to me.
 
stealthy123 said:
its not about you and your s939 boards its about everyone else with their (insert socket here)

if you could buy a s939 board ram and cpu or an am2 cpu ram and mobo at the same time which would you choose? once am2 come out given a choice between the two I would take am2 if everyting else was equal simply to future proof myself.


seems simple to understand to me.
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Well said.
 
Also, Don't assume that AM2 will not come without a processor update. I'm guessing the 5000+ or whatever will come out with this as well as a FX 62+. There will be a better performing processor with the new socket.
 
if you could buy a s939 board ram and cpu or an am2 cpu ram and mobo at the same time which would you choose? once am2 come out given a choice between the two I would take am2 if everyting else was equal simply to future proof myself
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The point is if I had a s939 setup (I don't - its s754) why would I want to upgrade? Heck, I don't even want to upgrade from s754 to s939, let alone AM2 right now. If AMD or anyone else wants to sell something new you need to give your customers a reason to want to upgrade. Its called "incentive." Future proof? That's nice, but I can upgrade in a year or two or three when its worth the $$$. Trying to stay on the bleeding edge is like a dog chasing his tail. You never catch up.

Also, Don't assume that AM2 will not come without a processor update. I'm guessing the 5000+ or whatever will come out with this as well as a FX 62+
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Yes the new 5000+ and FX-62's looks good except for 1 thing. $$$. Value for the dollar isn't so good. I can build a whole computer for what one of those cpu's costs. Heavy users will benefit from hardware like that - and those who just have to have the latest/greatest thing. I'd love that too but I have other bills to pay. Make it powerful and affordable. Conroe is looking better all the time at $550 or so and I'm no Intel fan...
 
Yes the new 5000+ and FX-62's looks good except for 1 thing. $$$. Value for the dollar isn't so good. I can build a whole computer for what one of those cpu's costs. Heavy users will benefit from hardware like that - and those who just have to have the latest/greatest thing. I'd love that too but I have other bills to pay. Make it powerful and affordable. Conroe is looking better all the time at $550 or so and I'm no Intel fan...
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AMD generally lowers there prices a notch when they release a new top end chip. So yes it will benefit most of us too, even tho most of us wont be buying the top end chips.
 
when intel brings conroe to compete the price wars should be back on.
 
Hito Bahadur said:
Also, Don't assume that AM2 will not come without a processor update. I'm guessing the 5000+ or whatever will come out with this as well as a FX 62+. There will be a better performing processor with the new socket.
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Please use more double negatives next time, your post was far too easy to understand.:rolleyes: j/k

Don't assume, will not come, without......I guess three negatives makes it stay negative, so you're saying don't assume there will be a CPU upgrade.

The meat of the change to AM2 is that as number of cores scale, bandwidth will become more important for AMD, as it currently is for Intel. For example, run a dual-core X2 with a 100:200 mem divider. That is basically the same thing as running a quad-cpu setup with DDR400 in as far as each core will have to share limited memory bandwidth (actually, somebody should do this just to see if there's a drastic difference between single and dual core using memory dividers). By moving to DDR2 now, when the price and production of the memory should actually decrease initial system building costs, AMD is positioning for the future rather than holding on to the past.

Personally, I am waiting to see how the scaling of cores:bandwidth goes, because it would have been a disaster to run a quad-core Netburst CPU on any current form of memory due to the bandwidth needs that a single or dual has....
 
Approaching technology always seems to bring with it the upgrade dilemna.

Case in point: The last upgrade I made was when socket 939 was released. I picked up the Asus A8V-Deluxe board and had headaches for a good month due to the board not liking the Mushkin RAM I bought with it. I finally solved the problem by swapping my RAM with the Kingston RAM my wife had in her new system ... her board being much more agreeable with the Mushkin RAM.

One of the excuses I used at the time for holding off for s939 was being able to drop a faster processor in sometime down the road. Oops! Now that AGP is outdated, I'm stuck buying a new board anyhow.

I guess my point is that like others have said, people who have been kicking around the idea of a hardware upgrade are probably wondering if it's worth hanging on for AM2 or just purchase a 939 board. In the case of AM2, you are dealing with a new chipset which means the possibilities of various quirks.
I already have an s939 board, but if I was going to be upgrading in the next couple months, I would probably be tempted to save some money and purchase what is (by now) an extremely reliable 939 platform board and nice dual-core processor.
 
the best part about AM2, however, is that it will arrive with an already mature chipset selection.

AM2 will not need new motherboard chipsets... the stability will be there... it will be a very good transition to DDR2.

and really, AMD should not be expected to stick with DDR1 forever... not only that, but AMD allowed intel customers to deal with the maturing of DDR2 modules, and when AM2 arrives you will be able to buy your awsome ballistix or awsome XMS or whatever right away... *and* use them to their full potential. If you think s939 is fun for the enthusiast just wait for AM2... hehe.

since most of the logic that requires a chipset change on the intel side is on the CPU itself with AMD, AM2 might be a socket to last a looong time just like socket A did. I remember thinking how cool it was to upgrade my celeron 300a system to a p3 800... I thought that was pretty neat. but I think going from single core 90nm to some number of multicore 65nm or 45nm with even a possibly different architecture on the same socket will be nice too.

intel is constantly making you buy new chipsets even on the same sockets... so whatever... they have not had a 440bx in a long time.

AMD is very forward thinking. first with dual core, first with consumer 64bit... I am sure they know what they are doing. matter of fact, AMD began to shine when they forgot about trying to do what intel did and just went at their own pace and direction.
 
Out of curiousity would the increase in memory bandwidth have a performance increase when playing online games more than single player games? In World of Warcraft I know FSB is very important in increasing your FPS regardless of your video card. I know someone with a similar setup to me, but he has an A64 3200 VS my XP 3200 and in Warcraft the FPS difference seems greater than in most "normal" games that aren't played on the net. CS may be the same way?
 
sohcugy said:
Out of curiousity would the increase in memory bandwidth have a performance increase when playing online games more than single player games? In World of Warcraft I know FSB is very important in increasing your FPS regardless of your video card. I know someone with a similar setup to me, but he has an A64 3200 VS my XP 3200 and in Warcraft the FPS difference seems greater than in most "normal" games that aren't played on the net. CS may be the same way?
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I'm not certain that this is a memory bandwidth issue. Sounds more like a CPU power issue. WoW is not a pretty graphics and everything else second type of game like Doom. There is a lot going on that requires CPU work.
 
its not about you and your s939 boards its about everyone else with their (insert socket here)
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uhmm...yeah. I did. And your point is? You obviously aren't very observant. I don't have a socket 939 board but I thought I made that clear.

My point is that Intel did a great job (if preliminary reports can be believed) with Conroe. As I said, I'm no Intel fan, but Conroe smokes the stuff they have out now. Its new architecture with a very large improvement in performance at release over what they are peddling now. That's what I was hoping to see from AMD. All AMD is doing is more or less a lateral move with the promise of better performance in the future. Thanks but no thanks. I'll buy their product when they have something that is an improvement over what is out right now. Otherwise I'd be buying now and again in a year. Seems rather foolish to me.
 
BigMacAttack, this is an evolutionary step, not revolutionary. This isn't meant to make people dump their old systems or AMD *would have* a killer CPU.

Look at it from a sales perspective, everything comes in waves. You are ready for the customer with an old PC (2002ish) to upgrade to the new stuff, so you tell them about it. You don't get all excited and start pushing a 4800+ on someone that bought their s939 system 6 months ago.

AMD isn't making this change for the enthusiasts, they're making this change for the long run. This is step 1 of 5, or 1 of 60, or whatever. This isn't a big deal.

This is AMD acknowledging that the industry is moving towards DDR2. They can either go along with it or get left with DDR, which will become more expensive as production slows.

As a matter of fact, reworking the K8 core to use DDR2 may have set them back a few months, we'll never know.
 
There is no reason to go AM2 before 2007... my 939 will be able to take anything that AM2 will offer in 2006
 
0ldman said:
BigMacAttack, this is an evolutionary step, not revolutionary. This isn't meant to make people dump their old systems or AMD *would have* a killer CPU.

Look at it from a sales perspective, everything comes in waves. You are ready for the customer with an old PC (2002ish) to upgrade to the new stuff, so you tell them about it. You don't get all excited and start pushing a 4800+ on someone that bought their s939 system 6 months ago.

AMD isn't making this change for the enthusiasts, they're making this change for the long run. This is step 1 of 5, or 1 of 60, or whatever. This isn't a big deal.

This is AMD acknowledging that the industry is moving towards DDR2. They can either go along with it or get left with DDR, which will become more expensive as production slows.

As a matter of fact, reworking the K8 core to use DDR2 may have set them back a few months, we'll never know.
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You make very good points and I understand the concept of evolutionary vs revolutionary. Hopefully AMD will be able to utilize AM2 for many different architectures (90nm 65nm 45nm). I do, however, disagree on your perspective when it comes to sales. Every salesman knows that you'll get more sales from repeat customers than from new ones. The auto industry knows this and so does every other industry. That's why items are always improved upon to deliver better performance, durability, etc. People are greedy and want more. If you claim to have a new product it had darn well be better than the old one "right now." If AMD is depending only upon people with older systems to upgrade they'll lose market share if Intel's Conroe is all its cracked up to be simply because not only is it new - it better. Better than what they had before and possibly better than anything AMD can bring to the table. I say "possibly" simply because all we've seen is an Intel demo and no real systems as yet. If everything follows as it has thus far AM2 will be viewed as nothing special while Conroe will be viewed as the best thing since sliced bread. If you were buying a new system which would you choose if you were an uneducated buyer? (as most consumers are. We enthusiasts know better.) Its probably a good move for the future but if Conroe does indeed deliver the price/performance value it promises AMD is going to find themselves in a deep hole with a short ladder.
I'm an AMD fan. I have disliked Intel since the days they used to lean on people to discourage competition. I've had Intel based systems, Cyrix (remember them?) based systems and AMD based systems. I like AMD because they have been able to take on the giant and beat him at his own game. I want to see AMD succeed. But they better have something special planned because they could get their *** handed to them in a big way if their gamble on AM2 fails to produce the results they, and the we the consumer, are expecting and hoping for.
I'm playing the Devil's advocate here. I'm not anti-AMD by any means, but they better produce some very hot performance - and very, very soon. Otherwise they're gonna get steamrolled.
 
There is no reason to go AM2 before 2007... my 939 will be able to take anything that AM2 will offer in 2006
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That's exactly my point. AMD isn't generating any buzz over AM2 among their camp. Go over to the Intel forums and see what Conroe is doing. Everyone wants one - even if they built their system 3 months ago. There is excitement there, not so in AMDville. If Conroe delivers as promised they'll make a killing on repeat customers and grab the lion's share of the new customers as well, both those looking to buy for the 1st time and those looking to move up from a slower system as well.
 
BigMacAttack said:
That's exactly my point. AMD isn't generating any buzz over AM2 among their camp. Go over to the Intel forums and see what Conroe is doing. Everyone wants one - even if they built their system 3 months ago. There is excitement there, not so in AMDville. If Conroe delivers as promised they'll make a killing on repeat customers and grab the lion's share of the new customers as well, both those looking to buy for the 1st time and those looking to move up from a slower system as well.
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Why would they? Surely AMD doesn't count on people buying new systems, simply because they have a new chipset. I bought the 939 early last year, because it was latest chipset and I felt that PCIE helped future proof me more than the 754. But you said you have a 754 MB. Apparently the 939 managed to be very sucessful, even though you didn't upgrade (my friends with 754's didnt' upgrade either).

Isn't conroe a new CPU? I find it a major plus that AMD is still planning new processors for the 939 and that they run as fast as their counterparts on the AM2. That's not a negative, that's a positive. I don't want to replace my MB every year.
 
I don't want to replace my MB every year.
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Neither do I :) But a lot of Intel users are drooling over Conroe even though they've only recently built new systems. And why not? It sure looks juicy. I'd be drooling too if AM2 had a nice performance bump but it doesn't.
I mainly built this skt 754 system about 6 months ago because I had a spare 3400+ Clawhammer laying around but I wanted to go PCI-e so I got the Asus K8N4-E Deluxe (nForce 4 4X chipset) along with a Sapphire X800Pro PCI-e card. Nice mobo but vcore limited to 1.55v. Back in Dec/Jan I wanted to replace the 3400+ and was ready bo buy a 3700+ Clawhammer when I found out (purely accidentally) about the skt 754 3000+ Venice. I popped for one ($140 at the time) and it is giving me great performance.I recently went and bought an Abit NV8 mobo (again PCI-e and nForce 4 4x). I'm at 270x10 @1.71v at the moment, air cooled and running 32.5C idle, 42.5C load. I could have gone skt 939 and probaby should have but this system is giving me all I need at the moment. And the only reason I stayed the course is because I've been reading about AM2 for some time now and it doesn't excite me in the least. Had it been a ground pounder I would have thought twice about playing around with cpu's and mobo's and ram. But since its pretty much a yawner I stayed with my skt 754 setup.
You see, AMD gave me no itch, no incentive, no buzz. Intel is giving people a huge buzz (we'll see if they can deliver). Its great marketing strategy.
 
The real boost AMD needs, if you were going to bother with a socket change, was to move to a 256Bit bus on the memory, rather than the 128bit current 939 bus.

Learn the lesson of the 9700pro-X1900XT, the wider memory bus was FAR more important than the move to DDR2 and DDR3.

As is, a motherboard maker COULD mimic a 256bit bus just by implementing a 256bit architecture, and funnelling the extra data into the A64 under the guise of faster memory timings. If you already have the NEXT 128bit memory access queued up in a hardware buffer at 0wait states, you can feed it to the A64 at 1,1,1,1.0 timings.

No motherboard makers do any more than minor alteration of the chipset maker's "reference" designs. The industry is nothing like the old days where REAL innovation would occur. Instead they all wait for the chipset makers to innovate, and just mass produce cookie cutter reference tweaks.
 
BigMacAttack said:
uhmm...yeah. I did. And your point is? You obviously aren't very observant. I don't have a socket 939 board but I thought I made that clear.

My point is that Intel did a great job (if preliminary reports can be believed) with Conroe. As I said, I'm no Intel fan, but Conroe smokes the stuff they have out now. Its new architecture with a very large improvement in performance at release over what they are peddling now. That's what I was hoping to see from AMD. All AMD is doing is more or less a lateral move with the promise of better performance in the future. Thanks but no thanks. I'll buy their product when they have something that is an improvement over what is out right now. Otherwise I'd be buying now and again in a year. Seems rather foolish to me.
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you is rhetorical.( i didn't mean you specifically you=computer users)

if you arent running socket 939 and are running anything other than conroe amd will be faster with am2 period. how is that not better?
don't be anal and bring up overclocked pentiums I am talking stock clocks

I don't understand your argument or point at all. sorry

the fact is intel used a second quality chipset for the amd and won't let people test on their own.

and its a product demo of something that isn't out yet.

if it was ready it would be out
 
Right - I am taking Intel's with a grain of salt, as we all should. I've stated my point clearly enough in all my posts I believe. Intel is coming out with something new and better than what they have now, and possiby better than what AMD will have at release. AMD is moving laterally to move forward. It seems to me they are trying to blunt Conroe with a new architecture of their own which may ar may not pay off in the long run.
Intel is generating excitement in their user base, AMD is not. A LOT of people on the Intel side are saying they'll build new systems even though they may have built one within the last year. You don't hear that from AMD users. AMD users are saying it isn't worth it to upgrade at the moment - and not just people who built systems in the last year but people like me with older architecture who look at AM2, shrug and say "I'll wait another year - or buy a Conroe." AMD's lack of excitement about their new offering is going to cost them dearly. And it won't just be at the high end. Mid-low cost Conroes will be availabel as well (as low as $200). If the mid-range X2 cpu's can compete that'll be great - it won't hurt AMD so bad.
If AMD really wanted to make an impact with AM2 they'd have made it more appealing. It seems moving to AM2 and staying on the 90nm process is just a short-term band-aid approach. Yeah the FX-62 and X25000 will be available but they don't have the impact Conroe does. Intel is building buzz and will gain market share, AMD is and will not.

PS I don't remember bringing up oc'd Pentiums but if you perceive I did I apologize - I guess.
 
LAWL

You can't compare a SOCKET to a PROCESSOR because the processors for AM2 are still the same technology that are being used right now. So it would still be a months away vs. current technology benchmark.
 
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