AT&T Taking $1B Non-Cash Charge For Health Care

It's nice that you haven't smoked or drunk. But for the people that have, remember this, they tax alcohol and tobacco heavily to pay for the health costs, or so we are all told. Why don't they spend it on the ones that buy the products that they say are legal? That is what the high taxes are for, right?
 
niconx said:
I'd like to add that I have never smoked I have never drunk (yes we exist) and I have never taken drugs a doctor didn't tell me to take. I also exercise regularly.
Click to expand...

Your still gonna die. ;)
 
SpeedRunner said:
I love when keyboard economists talk about how government intervention caused this crisis. Government intervention was the only thing that stopped a total economic freefall, which the unregulated and "perfect" capitalist system was well on its way towards.
Click to expand...

RIGHT!
 
SpeedRunner said:
I love when keyboard economists talk about how government intervention caused this crisis. Government intervention was the only thing that stopped a total economic freefall, which the unregulated and "perfect" capitalist system was well on its way towards.
Click to expand...

I love when keyboard economists talk about how gov't intervention prevented some kind of "freefall"... Wow, I can say something and not back it up but if I do so in a snarky manner I must be right huh?

How about there be more discussion and less condescension.
 
tikiman2012 said:
It's nice that you haven't smoked or drunk. But for the people that have, remember this, they tax alcohol and tobacco heavily to pay for the health costs, or so we are all told. Why don't they spend it on the ones that buy the products that they say are legal? That is what the high taxes are for, right?
Click to expand...

Nah, they tax smokes and booze to pay for schools, not for healthcare. If it paid for healthcare it would be so expensive few people would be able to afford it. When I see someone who is addicted to smoking (aka 99.9% of smokers) or people who get drunk off their ass on a regular basis, all I can think is "Your the reason why insurance costs so much." Same thing goes for the people that laugh about smoking pot "recreationally" then step outside and proceed to burn through cartons upon cartons of cigarettes.
 
"I hope this shit gets repealed, I was never for it. I already pay $80 a check for Blue Cross/Blue Shield

why should I pay more for some fucknuts I don't even know to get some kind of insurance?"

So not to derail this at all but, how does this even make sense?

If someone has no insurance, goes to emergency room and gets a bill for 100k, who do you think pays for this? The guy with no insurance? He'll probably pay $10 for the rest of his life, which totals up to nothing. Hospital just charges everyone else more, the only people who actually pay are ones with insurance, soo.... you are already paying for him.

Also btw, $100 is nothing at all.

Also, anyone read explanation of what is changing? Seems like basically AT&T is unhappy that they cannot use a loophole to get out of paying taxes that htey previously had been using. For anyone against health care bill I guess, you'd be happier if AT&T didn't haev to pay those taxes? BTW, again, someone ends up paying, if AT&T isn't paying taxes due to loophole, who do you think does?
 
I agree, my son was born with a hole in his heart, a big one. As he's gotten older, he's 8 now, it's closed up a lot, but I guess he should try harder to close it!

Oh yeah, IT'S A PRE-EXISTING CONDITION, sorry son, your out of luck, just like me.
Click to expand...

It is cold, and I'm sorry about your son's condition but he is not my son and thus not my responsibility. I already pay to much in taxes (nearly 40%) I'm not about to endorse socalized health care because it feels good.

50% for me is the breaking point - when it goes from trying to work hard and make a living to why bother to stress and work hard just to give it to the government that can't manage themselves out of a paper bag. Were getting real close to that line.

The only thing in that bill that makes sense is the pre-existing condition limit where a company can't drop you after years of having a policy only to try and drop you when you make a claim. Everything else needs to be repealed ASAP.
 
tikiman2012 said:
The reality is that the health care industry needs to be regulated.
I had a stroke in December, the billing from Mercy Hospital for the MRI alone was $3000.00. That is absolutely ridiculous. The same MRI in England is $330.00.

We pay our taxes, the government should not bite the hand that feeds them. Healthy people keep living, working, and paying taxes. It's not that hard to figure out. Quite sending our tax dollars overseas and take care of its citizens first. Companies don't have the right to steal your world from you if you get sick. They should not be able to set their own rates, not when human lives are hanging in the balance.

The total bill for my stroke was $15,105.39.

So, I guess the question that I have is WHY?
Click to expand...

I agree with you to some extent. First and foremost, the government should be cut in half and stop with all the useless and insane spending. The government should use the money to help the people in this country instead of sending billions and billions of dollars to other countries.
 
bexamous said:
If someone has no insurance, goes to emergency room and gets a bill for 100k, who do you think pays for this? The guy with no insurance? He'll probably pay $10 for the rest of his life, which totals up to nothing. Hospital just charges everyone else more, the only people who actually pay are ones with insurance, soo.... you are already paying for him.
Click to expand...

Right, you miss something though as the system is now. People with preexisting conditions are not allowed to get insurance for themselves. Not allowed, yes thats right. People with preexisting conditions are very limited in the ability to get insurance and are made to wait years before they can get insurance even then. So people with preexisting conditions are not even allowed to pay into the insurance system if they want to. On top of that the persons condition keeps getting worse and costing taxpayers more because it's not being treated properly. Another vicious circle.
 
JayteeBates said:
It is cold, and I'm sorry about your son's condition but he is not my son and thus not my responsibility. I already pay to much in taxes (nearly 40%) I'm not about to endorse socalized health care because it feels good.

50% for me is the breaking point - when it goes from trying to work hard and make a living to why bother to stress and work hard just to give it to the government that can't manage themselves out of a paper bag. Were getting real close to that line.

The only thing in that bill that makes sense is the pre-existing condition limit where a company can't drop you after years of having a policy only to try and drop you when you make a claim. Everything else needs to be repealed ASAP.
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity, are you out there campaigning to have your taxes not used for public schools, research funding, and such services as the fire department and such as well?

Those are all services that likely you are not *currently* using, but are being taxed for. Therefore, by your argument regarding "he's not my son and thus not my responsibility", services such as the fire department shouldn't be supported via taxes either, because until the time comes when you yourself may need it, your tax dollars are being "wasted" by others, who also aren't your responsibility.

Health care shouldn't be an option, it should be an option that everyone has available to them. Almost every other 1st World country has realized this, and yet in America, that's still not the case. And if our system was "so much better", why is it that so many other countries, most of whom have some form of socialized medicine, regularly are ahead of us in regards to quality of life?
 
The government is getting bigger and bigger and if things get worse, than the people of this country have only themselves to blame along with many of the posters here. Neither the Democrats and Republicans care about the average Joe and are only interested in their own agenda and to keep their party in power. Both parties flip flop on issues, cater to special interest groups, spend insane amounts of money, and keep making more laws.

Sure there are a few Democrats and Republicans who do care for the country but they are considered rogues and are pretty much shut out by the media and their fellow politicians.
 
TheCommander said:
Sure there are a few Democrats and Republicans who do care for the country but they are considered rogues and are pretty much shut out by the media and their fellow politicians.
Click to expand...

Definitely, people in office have made their jobs too much of a business and not enough of a duty. People disagree about things but at least they should disagree for the right reasons and not because of cliche party lines.
 
What I find so funny in these debates is that "Oh boy this bill is shit!" and when I say well if its that bad won't we change it and then the next thing is that I here what "Well now that we have it we won't be able to change it!":confused:

So nobody wanted it yet in 2008 it was pretty damn clear that voting for Dems was going to bring this type of change because THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO DO IT! They will by a landslide. Did pretty much what they said they were going to do.

Now the opponents say that "Every hates this bill! It sucks!". Really? I know most here think that everyone is dumb but still folks, I pretty much knew this was coming.

If you didn't want it you should have voted for McCain/Palin.

People's logic on this has gone out the window and is TEN times worse than anything in this bill. Our medical costs are going up. Is THAT A SHOCK? I mean they'd be going up anyway and gee anytime a company doesn't get its way what's the FIRST thing they do? Threaten customers with higher prices. I mean really.

I SO wish we has a referendum system in this country. At least it would be clear.

And folks, 15 years ago, Republicans had a chance to pass a FAR less invasive bill. They had the power. The stuff they claim to want know that could have done 15 years ago but didn't. They let things fester, got their buts kicked and but of course NO ONE wants this bill. It's just the most illogical train of thought ever.

I give up, their just no rational and logical debate. My way or the highway. So much from freedom. And freedom doesn't give you the right NOT to pay your bills. You've got no insurance and you're not rich. You might be young but one illness and you toast buddy. You have not right to stick everyone with a bill you COULD have taken care of yourself if you had been responsible.

So you want low cost medicine, where people have the right to just do whatever they want, and when they get sick they want to get their free medicine and then screw everyone else. Like this is cheap.

People stop whining like children. Man up a little! The world isn't going to blow up for crying out loud.

If the bill sucks then get it changes! But guess what, it ain't gonna suck that much. The truth is always in the middle.

As for Medicare, expensive but ask you parents what they would want. You think that my 83 year old mother would want a PRIVATE insurance company covering her? I mean fine, let's end Medicare and then everyone, get ready to pay money beyond belief taking care of your older parents. You'll be BEGGING for tax hikes when you get $2000 dollar a month drug bills alone.
 
niconx said:
Nah, they tax smokes and booze to pay for schools, not for healthcare. If it paid for healthcare it would be so expensive few people would be able to afford it. When I see someone who is addicted to smoking (aka 99.9% of smokers) or people who get drunk off their ass on a regular basis, all I can think is "Your the reason why insurance costs so much." Same thing goes for the people that laugh about smoking pot "recreationally" then step outside and proceed to burn through cartons upon cartons of cigarettes.
Click to expand...


Booze maybe, but smokers already pay a hefty additional premium for their insurance; because they smoke. They're not the ones fucking up the system.
 
wtiger said:
Booze maybe, but smokers already pay a hefty additional premium for their insurance; because they smoke. They're not the ones fucking up the system.
Click to expand...

I don't know if I agree. We are talking about medical fees in the hundred of thousands of dollars in treatment being billed to the insurance co. With the system the way it is now billing silly prices. It's like buying another house. Only the insurance companies know the true costs, have they said anything?
 
They're the ones that set the policy cost and have the figures not me. I'd assume the amount is appropriate to the amount of extra risk/cost. They'd be idiots if they don't charge enough.
 
Paul_Johnson said:
Average profit margin is ~3.6%. Nice attempt to use those numbers out of context to make it seem like they make a ridiculous profit when in reality they don't.
Click to expand...

What they bill and what they make are two different things...
 
niconx said:
What they bill and what they make are two different things...
Click to expand...

That was profound. Really profound.

Think of it this way, 3 to 4 cents on every 100 cents is profit. Would you like to run that business?

Bottom line the insurance companies are not screwing you on your costs, health care costs what it costs largely due to a lot of factors not addressed in the bill passed.
 
I know a large chunk of the money any doctor makes goes towards malpractice insurance. Somewhere on the order of 70,000-250,000 per year depending on what he does.
 
Paul_Johnson said:
That was profound. Really profound.

Think of it this way, 3 to 4 cents on every 100 cents is profit. Would you like to run that business?

Bottom line the insurance companies are not screwing you on your costs, health care costs what it costs largely due to a lot of factors not addressed in the bill passed.
Click to expand...

I agree that makes sense. Whatever makes the hospital bill a roll of gauze as costing $100 is the problem. That is caused by treating people who don't pay into the insurance system. How much are the hospitals making? Drug companies? Do these medical companies have any projects whatsoever to even attempt to reduce the costs associated with making medicine and medical equipment? Of course not, then they would be making less money. There's the problem. When I saw a bottle of pills go from $160 to $380 during a period of 2 years I knew this.
 
Also I would mention in my personal experience that my doctor over prescribed my medication. I was taking way more than I really needed. I found this out when I no longer had the money to keep paying for it at the same breakneck pace. I put myself on a little medical trial of my own to figure out how much I really needed. Turns out it was 1/4 as much as I was taking. So who tells the doctors how much to prescribe?
 
Hrm...Even Canadians/Canadian Healthcare isn't immune to the long and broad reach of Big Pharm. They screw us all...coming and going.

And that's all I've got to say about it.
 
niconx said:
I agree that makes sense. Whatever makes the hospital bill a roll of gauze as costing $100 is the problem. That is caused by treating people who don't pay into the insurance system. How much are the hospitals making?
Click to expand...


Industry average margin is ~3.4%, so 3-4% as well.

Drug companies?
Click to expand...

That gets harder because they cross into a few categories but the consensus number bandied about is 10-15%.

Do these medical companies have any projects whatsoever to even attempt to reduce the costs associated with making medicine and medical equipment? Of course not, then they would be making less money.
Click to expand...

Actually that is completely wrong. Since they exist in a tightly restricted capitalist system that is incorrect as they face competition and competition is cut throat among these companies.

The only ones that DO NOT have an incentive to drop costs to gain market share are those that sell almost solely into research as that market is fixed by the fact that the money all comes from the government.

There's the problem. When I saw a bottle of pills go from $160 to $380 during a period of 2 years I knew this.
Click to expand...

Actually, no you don't know anything about the system or why the apparent cost may have risen. The number you see for a cost is never what the real cost is when you have insurance and is subject to a lot of market conditions. What was the exact drug and dates that the price changed? What was the insurance company, plan, and pharmacy that filled the drug?
 
niconx said:
Also I would mention in my personal experience that my doctor over prescribed my medication. I was taking way more than I really needed. I found this out when I no longer had the money to keep paying for it at the same breakneck pace. I put myself on a little medical trial of my own to figure out how much I really needed. Turns out it was 1/4 as much as I was taking. So who tells the doctors how much to prescribe?
Click to expand...

Billion, upon billions of dollars of basic research funded by the government. Hundreds of millions to Billions of dollars of development costs footed by the pharmaceutical companies. Then tens to hundreds of millions of dollars of safety, efficacy, and compliance testing overseen by the FDA.

Not taking your recommended dosage is not only not recommended due ot lower efficacy it can be life threateningly dangerous depending on the drug, or even a public health risk.

There is a reason people spend hundreds of thousands of dollars going to school to receive the proper training on how to work through these issues successfully, and as safely as possible, and you did not.
 
And to add while the perceived perception that the "rich' are going to fund this new Trillion Dollar Spending Spree by Comrade in Chief, as inflation adjusts salaries in the years to come, everyone will be paying for this. And yeah if you're pullin down 200K a year, that is a bit of Jack but why should they have to pay extra just because they are successful. IMO it's the people who will never in their lives have a chance of ever making that kind of money that are all for the "Rich" paying for their health problems. Income redistribution is the basis for ALL Socialist, Marxism and once Government has total control, Communism.

You have to take a look at everything that been going on lately, like the financial "bailout" of Banking and Insurance Companies. The taking over of GM and Chrysler. Now your health care. Did you know the Government wants to take control of the Internet in case of an "Emergency"? Yeah, that means pretty much whenever they feel like it.

Guns will be next as well as the expansion of the IRS (its already begun, just go to jobs.gov). And if you don't know, the IRS ALWAYS gets it money whether you believe those stupid commercials or not, the IRS NEVER forgives whats owed. And with Comrades new Bill, you don't pay the Government for health insurance, you WILL be assessed FINES by the IRS and when you don't pay, they DO send you to Prison. Which would negate the having to pay for health care, as when you are incarcerated, the State or Fed pays.
 
bbvdd2 said:
And to add while the perceived perception that the "rich' are going to fund this new Trillion Dollar Spending Spree by Comrade in Chief, as inflation adjusts salaries in the years to come, everyone will be paying for this. And yeah if you're pullin down 200K a year, that is a bit of Jack but why should they have to pay extra just because they are successful. IMO it's the people who will never in their lives have a chance of ever making that kind of money that are all for the "Rich" paying for their health problems. Income redistribution is the basis for ALL Socialist, Marxism and once Government has total control, Communism.

You have to take a look at everything that been going on lately, like the financial "bailout" of Banking and Insurance Companies. The taking over of GM and Chrysler. Now your health care. Did you know the Government wants to take control of the Internet in case of an "Emergency"? Yeah, that means pretty much whenever they feel like it.

Guns will be next as well as the expansion of the IRS (its already begun, just go to jobs.gov). And if you don't know, the IRS ALWAYS gets it money whether you believe those stupid commercials or not, the IRS NEVER forgives whats owed. And with Comrades new Bill, you don't pay the Government for health insurance, you WILL be assessed FINES by the IRS and when you don't pay, they DO send you to Prison. Which would negate the having to pay for health care, as when you are incarcerated, the State or Fed pays.
Click to expand...


"Comrades new Bill", Are you really that delusional?

I hated Bush, but I at least had respect for The Office.

As far as the "Emergency Control of the Internet", China recently proved that it was necessary and they still can't be trusted. As if they ever could!
 
Paul_Johnson said:
Actually, no you don't know anything about the system or why the apparent cost may have risen. The number you see for a cost is never what the real cost is when you have insurance and is subject to a lot of market conditions. What was the exact drug and dates that the price changed? What was the insurance company, plan, and pharmacy that filled the drug?
Click to expand...

The number I saw was the actual cost. When I had insurance I paid $10 (good insurance). I was no longer allowed to have insurance and paid full price and continue to now. The price between pharmacies only changed about $20. So I now pay $380/bottle with no insurance because I'm not allowed to get insurance. Only one company makes the medication, there is no competition. Yay for the free market. As far as dosage goes all I know is that so far the medication I was told to take is still working as well as it was when I was taking 4 times as much. I'll spare the details, it's pretty obvious when I don't take enough. I was made clear exactly how the medication works and found ways myself to make it work better based on that. Not something you could do with most medications but it's also something that is completely undocumented.
 
ToastyBread said:
Yes, the insurance companies are truly "hurting":

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HealthCare/health-insurers-post-record-profits/story?id=9818699
Click to expand...

Wellpoint - 4.0% profit. 2.5 Billion Net Income (61.3 Billion Revenue)
UnitedHealth - 4.3% profit. 3.8 Billion Net Income (87.1 Billion Revenue)
Cigna - 7.0% profit. 1.3 Billion Net Income (18.4 Billion Revenue)
Humana - 2.2% profit. 647 Million Net Income (28.9 Billion Revenue)
Aetna - 4.4% loss. -1.4 Billion Net Income (30.9 Billion Revenue)
That's just from the list that article mentioned. How they maintain their company, how they revise their rules, etc is dependent on so many various conditions which the article will not bother to mention. It's easy cherry picking the numbers to skew the numbers to their advantage. Enrollment is kind of easy to explain because there are alot of factors at play like for example economic downturn which all companies shed their employees which in turns means less to cover for medical. Ya all in all I'm aware that they could raise premium prices but that's always what happens in downturns for everything. You either cut inventory or raise prices. Guess what they did, raise prices because keeping their enrollment up as much as possible is important to them. For other industries, cutting inventory matters more (oil for example).

If we all force insurance companies to maintain 0% profit margin or take a loss, they will shut their doors, cash their company out of the market, then millions of people with their coverage will lose their insurance. The whole point of profit margin is to allow their company to continue on for the future, shore up their cash reserves to cover any future losses, and to be responsible to their shareholders among several of the reasons. It's like Intel and AMD, how they use their profit margin is entirely up to them as well as how they cover for their losses.

This populist attitude against any idea of for-profit insurance group is bullshit. There's alot of bullshit in the crap sandwich that is being forced on us ie 10 years of taxes, 6 years of coverage. Even a lot but not all states are now in revolt against the healthcare reform because it also puts on alot of responsibility on them as well like Arizona will have to spend 4 billion dollars it doesn't have at the expense of the state Medicaid program. The federal program does not start until 2014 which this only makes situations worse for the states because they have to find money they don't have to fund the program that is being forced on them from the Federal Government. You think it was bad that California has a 25 billion dollar deficit? This reform only makes it worse for California by adding 2-3 billion more annually. Hence why alot of states are suing the Federal Government now even with the 10th Amendment argument. If that doesn't fix it, we should just abandon any notion of government since the feds won't fix their own fucking problem, their own gluttony, their own greed, their own corruption, etc. Healthcare reform is a bullshit gimmick and it should have been put on the backburner with us focusing on the economy, closing deficits, addressing holes in the economy, etc. But no, we don't have that, we have a populist smug asshole who is intent on maintaining party loyalty (far leftists morons who should be ignored)

The media is trying to fucking hard to soften the blow for the Democratic Party in the November 2010 election but the Party's lost it. Pelosi, Hoyer, Reid, etc are all out. The independents, the students, and the Republicans will be voting in large numbers over the Democratic Party faithful. Why did I bring up the students? It pisses me off it affects me directly because the interest that was supposed to be going back to refund Pell, Stafford will be helping to defray the cost of healthcare. So there's another potential program that will be facing federal funding shortfalls (a violation of the reconciliation rules, but it doesn't matter, the crap sandwich needs to pass!)

What's next? VAT? Not even that will bail our ass out. I rather take 2 years of no federal government in our lives than this crap of brown nosing their way into my life. There were people voted for Obama because he's going to pay for their gas, their mortgage, beyond their means expenses, etc because he is THE ONE. "Watch me create a trillion dollars out of thin air! Viola!" when Bernanke in the corner is muttering "Dumbfuck".
 
ToastyBread said:
Yes, the insurance companies are truly "hurting":

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HealthCare/health-insurers-post-record-profits/story?id=9818699
Click to expand...

In the midst of a deep economic recession, America's health insurance companies increased their profits by 56 percent in 2009, a year that saw 2.7 million people lose their private coverage. The nation's five largest for-profit insurers closed 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion, according to a report by the advocacy group Health Care for American Now (HCAN).
Click to expand...

$12.2 billion sounds like a huge obscene profit…Until you look deeper and find out that number amounts to about 3.4%.

A little business acumen would make you aware nobody stays in business with such a low profit margin.
 
As a Canadian - the problem with the American healthcare system is not this bill or whatever social costs you need to bear...it's basically corporate greed.

Healthcare is uneccesarily expensive. There has to be legislation to reduce the cost of healthcare and the exploitation of people who need healthcare. The Canadian government limits the price of prescription drugs - a big reason why drugs are cheaper here. The drug companies have no choice but accept that deal but they still do business. Obviously they are still making money. Just not wheelbarrows full anymore.
 
Spare-Flair said:
As a Canadian - the problem with the American healthcare system is not this bill or whatever social costs you need to bear...it's basically corporate greed.

Healthcare is uneccesarily expensive. There has to be legislation to reduce the cost of healthcare and the exploitation of people who need healthcare. The Canadian government limits the price of prescription drugs - a big reason why drugs are cheaper here. The drug companies have no choice but accept that deal but they still do business. Obviously they are still making money. Just not wheelbarrows full anymore.
Click to expand...

They were never making wheel barrows of it in the first place. A sub 5 -10% GM is hardly obscene. If you think it is, go start a business and price your product/services at or below a GM of 10%.
 
Right, big pharma is really toughing it out for the good of humanity...

Give me a break. They are not the only industry that operates on low margin and either way they make money hand over fist. Forgive me if I do not shed a tear for them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top