Be careful when buying "OEM" cards on eBay!

J

jcazes

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
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So I thought I got a pretty good deal on an "OEM" Adaptec 51245 on eBay (paid $550 shipped, retails for over $1000). Little did I know this was an EVALUATION card without the eval sticker. According to a rep at Adaptec, "The problem is that this card will work fine until you try to update the firmware, as the firmware of this card has an embedded time-bomb, which will make the card defective, when the firmware is updated."

Some of you may have seen my other thread about some problems getting the full array to expand in Vista, so I decided to update my firmware. Ran the utility, did a restart, then BAM, broken. Cannot reflash. Cannot update. UN.USABLE. CARD NO LONGER WORKS. $550, GONE. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Maybe this is common knowledge, but if not I hope it saves someone else a headache... :(
 
Have you considered trying to call Adaptec back, explaining the situation and seeing if they'll take it back as a credit toward a new card?
 
Some WD hardrives i've purchased off ebay have had some thing like that happen as well. I popped the serial numbers onto WD's site to check warranties to find out they were all marked STOLEN.
 
^WOW talk about efficency.
How do they check the serial of your drive? Must you be online while updating or DL the new FW
 
How do they check the serial of your drive?
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They don't. You put the serial in WD's warranty page and it gives you the length of the remaining warranty.

Jcazes, that's not been common knowledge to me. I can't imagine that all Adaptec "OEM" items are "Evaluation" items. It sounds to me like you were "taken" by the exclusion of that information. Whether the seller knowingly did this, we'll probably never know.

Thanks for the "Heads Up"!
 
Sounds like you got burned by a shady Fleabay dealer...my Adaptec 31605 from eBay is OEM, but I was still able to register and receive support for it, it even was able to update to the latest firmware revision as well.
 
Old Hippie said:
They don't. You put the serial in WD's warranty page and it gives you the length of the remaining warranty.
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Ah, so they can't prevent you from upgrading the firmware, by blowing up the hard drive when detected as stolen.
It would be cool though....
NOT
 
Old Hippie said:
They don't. You put the serial in WD's warranty page and it gives you the length of the remaining warranty.

Jcazes, that's not been common knowledge to me. I can't imagine that all Adaptec "OEM" items are "Evaluation" items. It sounds to me like you were "taken" by the exclusion of that information. Whether the seller knowingly did this, we'll probably never know.

Thanks for the "Heads Up"!
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Sorry, I should have been a little clearer. I meant to warn people buying OEM cards to make sure they weren't actually evaluation cards--I suppose this can be verified by checking the serial number on the card with Adaptec's product registration page, because when I tried to register the product Adaptec's site said it was not a valid serial number.

I contacted the seller on eBay and he said he bought the card from someone else. He also didn't seem to have too much knowledge of the English language, so communication was brief (after I told him selling eval cards was not permitted by Adaptec he never responded).

At this point, I am waiting to hear back from Adaptec to see if they can help me out in any way. The last thing I received from them prior to my request was something to the effect of "you will need to get the seller to replace the card", so I am doubtful...


PS - The seller was this guy: http://myworld.ebay.com/ponideal

Seems like a legitimate guy... there's a chance he bought the card from a shady guy who removed the sticker (as Ponideal's feedback is impeccable).
 
Sounds like a really bad situation for you; I bought my 31605 from the very same eBay seller, and even though my card was OEM and the firmware was ancient (Adaptec support said something to the effect that the firmware was implemented during initial production of the cards), I don't have any issues with the card and I didn't have an issue flashing the firmware to the latest revision, either.
 
Just heard back from Adaptec. They said something to the effect of "Nope, we can't help you. The card is toast so you will need to resolve the problem with the seller."

Opened a case with Paypal last night... that's my last hope.
 
When a price seems too good to be true, it probably is. I have burned myself every single damn time I try to cut corners and save some cash by either improvising or buying something for like half price.

You really do get what you pay for. For this reason, if it's anything high end or luxury, I buy new or buy through a repudable site with credible refrences. If it's something small or rare, I'd take the gamble.
 
$550 is very far away from "cheap"... I can see this thread is relatively old... I wonder if jcazes tried to place a paypal complaint (that is, assuming he paid using paypal)
 
I doubt it is actually an "embedded time bomb" but rather that the card isn't made to the final specs, so it has a custom firmware on it, and the standard firmware will brick the card if installed to it since it is not built the way the firmware expects.

If you saved the original firmware in the upgrade process you might be lucky enough to be able to put it back on there, but it will never be able to be upgraded..
 
Ockie said:
When a price seems too good to be true, it probably is. I have burned myself every single damn time I try to cut corners and save some cash by either improvising or buying something for like half price.

You really do get what you pay for. For this reason, if it's anything high end or luxury, I buy new or buy through a repudable site with credible refrences. If it's something small or rare, I'd take the gamble.
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I normally would agree with you, but I have been buying and selling on used markets (eBay, craigslist, and various other areas) for years. I do thorough research when buying used items (especially computer parts), but this was not something I expected. I had never even heard of EVAL cards prior to this, and the OEM classification seemed spot on given his price. As a comparison, some recent eval cards were sold for a mere $250 apiece (vs. $1000+ retail for this card). Speaking of which, I am in contact with one of the ebay purchasers to see if I can use the original demo firmware as Lazn_Work suggested...

I initiated a Paypal claim yesterday on the basis that the product was not as advertised. To my dismay, Paypal no longer supports claims regarding the type/quality of the product, only whether or not it was shipped/delivered. Paypal's buyer protection is a joke, and I will no longer be using them for anything.

I contacted my bank to dispute the credit card purchase (which funded my paypal account), and they said I need to ship the item back to the seller with a tracking number, then they will start the chargeback process. The first step I will take is to try to re-flash the card with that demo firmware, though, because if it works the seller won't be completely screwed with a dead card (there is a small part of me that believes this guy is legit because of his feedback... he may have been an additional victim in this).

I can see this thread is relatively old...
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What?? :)

I doubt it is actually an "embedded time bomb" but rather that the card isn't made to the final specs, so it has a custom firmware on it, and the standard firmware will brick the card if installed to it since it is not built the way the firmware expects.

If you saved the original firmware in the upgrade process you might be lucky enough to be able to put it back on there, but it will never be able to be upgraded..
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Genius! As previously mentioned, I am going to try this with the help of someone who PM'd me here. I will post results as soon as I have any.
 
jcazes said:
I normally would agree with you, but I have been buying and selling on used markets (eBay, craigslist, and various other areas) for years. I do thorough research when buying used items (especially computer parts), but this was not something I expected. I had never even heard of EVAL cards prior to this, and the OEM classification seemed spot on given his price. As a comparison, some recent eval cards were sold for a mere $250 apiece (vs. $1000+ retail for this card). Speaking of which, I am in contact with one of the ebay purchasers to see if I can use the original demo firmware as Lazn_Work suggested...

I initiated a Paypal claim yesterday on the basis that the product was not as advertised. To my dismay, Paypal no longer supports claims regarding the type/quality of the product, only whether or not it was shipped/delivered. Paypal's buyer protection is a joke, and I will no longer be using them for anything.

I contacted my bank to dispute the credit card purchase (which funded my paypal account), and they said I need to ship the item back to the seller with a tracking number, then they will start the chargeback process. The first step I will take is to try to re-flash the card with that demo firmware, though, because if it works the seller won't be completely screwed with a dead card (there is a small part of me that believes this guy is legit because of his feedback... he may have been an additional victim in this).



What?? :)



Genius! As previously mentioned, I am going to try this with the help of someone who PM'd me here. I will post results as soon as I have any.
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While I agree with your pains and sympathize with you... you have to remember, you flashed the card. The seller did sell you a working card. I would be furious if someone started a refund/fraud process claim against me for something that I was either unaware of in the past or didn't guarantee.

I've actually had this problem in the past, a buyer bought a switch from me and tried to flash it, the switch was working perfectly fine before, until he flashed it... apparently it was a bad flash or the firmware didn't want to take it... so here I was stuck with a claim for something I've used for years without any problems... not to mention, it was months after the fact.

While he should have told you it's an evaluation, he technically didn't need to, it should have been buyer due-diligence to follow up with questions like that (I ask this question to anything that can be evals or engineering samples, because there are a lot of them out there). Now if the seller said "this is not an evaulation", then thats a whole diffrent story.

Care to post the ebay posting? I'd like to check it out.
 
I would not have thought to ask if this was an evalution unit and would have accepted the premise that it was by defination;
OEM hardware is hardware packaged for computer administrator and builder use. These products are normally plain boxed and often don't come with any instructions or references provided in retail packages.
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Nothing more, nothing less.

Okie, your analogy doesn't really apply here because your unit could be flashed and this unit couldn't. If jcazes had know that this unit couldn't be flashed, would he have bought it anyway?

I feel the seller and buyer and me, have all learned a lesson.
 
jcazes said:
The first step I will take is to try to re-flash the card with that demo firmware, though, because if it works the seller won't be completely screwed with a dead card (there is a small part of me that believes this guy is legit because of his feedback... he may have been an additional victim in this).
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IMO, that is just as shady as being sold an eval card. You'd be covering up the fact you bricked a working card.
 
Ockie said:
While he should have told you it's an evaluation, he technically didn't need to, it should have been buyer due-diligence to follow up with questions like that (I ask this question to anything that can be evals or engineering samples, because there are a lot of them out there). Now if the seller said "this is not an evaulation", then thats a whole diffrent story.

Care to post the ebay posting? I'd like to check it out.
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And Evaluation card is not an OEM card. The product received was not the same as advertised at all.

Also, if the OP had bricked an actual OEM card with a bad flash and tried to claim a non-working card, then your example would have merit.

 
While he should have told you it's an evaluation, he technically didn't need to, it should have been buyer due-diligence to follow up with questions like that (I ask this question to anything that can be evals or engineering samples, because there are a lot of them out there). Now if the seller said "this is not an evaulation", then thats a whole diffrent story.
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One of the things I hate most in this world is when retailers or salespeople take advantage of consumers and buyers. Yes, buyers should do research. Yes, buyers need to make sure what they're buying is legitimate. Due-diligence hardly includes researching the history of sales in a manufacturer's field which would reveal the distribution of eval cards with "firmware timebombs" on the market. The majority of the people on this thread knew nothing about this, so does that tell you something?

The first and last part of this statement are the most ridiculous. Ockie, I respect your input and knowledge on these forums, but those are USED CAR salesmen tactics. If something is listed as OEM, it is not a DEMO. Sure, a DEMO will always be in OEM packaging (or lack thereof), but the two are not reversible.

While I agree with your pains and sympathize with you... you have to remember, you flashed the card. The seller did sell you a working card. I would be furious if someone started a refund/fraud process claim against me for something that I was either unaware of in the past or didn't guarantee.

I've actually had this problem in the past, a buyer bought a switch from me and tried to flash it, the switch was working perfectly fine before, until he flashed it... apparently it was a bad flash or the firmware didn't want to take it... so here I was stuck with a claim for something I've used for years without any problems... not to mention, it was months after the fact.
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There is a huge difference between a failed flash of a working device and a failed flash of a device designed not to be flashed (with the latter detail not disclosed during the sale).

Ultimately, buyers need to make sure they know what they are buying, but sellers who describe a product as something else or do not disclose important and unique details like this case are rotten salesmen.

FWIW, here is the listing: eBay

Since I purchased the item after the auction ended here is what he said in the email:

"it is new oem card as state in listing you've seen before contact me.
i am buy/sell for business living....
Every item i warranty against DOA 7 days after delivered.
Paypal direct Price $550 + $15 S/H/I."

I don't care who you are, this was not new/OEM.
 
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IMO, that is just as shady as being sold an eval card. You'd be covering up the fact you bricked a working card.
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No, I'm simply trying not to screw over the seller (because like I said, part of me thinks he was also unaware of what he was selling, and his listing about it being new/oem was only partially devious).

Bottom line--I want and am going to get a refund through a CC chargeback. Whether or not the guy receives a working card is probably entirely up to me, given his lack of knowledge about the card and connection to someone who has firmware that might work. I would not have bought the card had I known it was a demo, so I'm trying to get back to square 1 without destroying one of the two parties involved.
 
Old Hippie said:
Okie, your analogy doesn't really apply here because your unit could be flashed and this unit couldn't. If jcazes had know that this unit couldn't be flashed, would he have bought it anyway?
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Actually, mine couldn't be flashed. And yes, he most likley would have bought it anyways as the card was recomended by several of us large storage folks are we are running it without any problems... same seller. Obviously, our guys have not flashed it because it worked.

SmokeRngs said:
And Evaluation card is not an OEM card. The product received was not the same as advertised at all.
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A lot of evaluation cards are Original Equipment Manufacture so yes, it can be an OEM card. A lot of evaluation cards are fully functional, I know because I have bought a few in the past.

SmokeRngs said:
Also, if the OP had bricked an actual OEM card with a bad flash and tried to claim a non-working card, then your example would have merit.
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Isn't he? I guess my reading must fail me. He's returning it on the idea that it's not working when it was sold as working.

jcazes said:
One of the things I hate most in this world is when retailers or salespeople take advantage of consumers and buyers. Yes, buyers should do research. Yes, buyers need to make sure what they're buying is legitimate. Due-diligence hardly includes researching the history of sales in a manufacturer's field which would reveal the distribution of eval cards with "firmware timebombs" on the market. The majority of the people on this thread knew nothing about this, so does that tell you something?
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A majority will also know that buying cards for fractions of retail costs on ebay should put up red flags. And like I said, a few of us have bought from this guy before without any issues.

jcazes said:
The first and last part of this statement are the most ridiculous. Ockie, I respect your input and knowledge on these forums, but those are USED CAR salesmen tactics. If something is listed as OEM, it is not a DEMO. Sure, a DEMO will always be in OEM packaging (or lack thereof), but the two are not reversible.
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I don't really care if you respect my input and knowledge, especially if you don't give a shit about my input now.... and this is coming from a person with over 1,000 ebay feedback.


jcazes said:
There is a huge difference between a failed flash of a working device and a failed flash of a device designed not to be flashed (with the latter detail not disclosed during the sale).
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And the seller is supposed to be aware of everything that may be wrong with the card firmware wise? So the seller is supposed to know that you can't flash the firmware to the later generation? If thats the case, maybe I should open some old claims and get my money back.

jcazes said:
Ultimately, buyers need to make sure they know what they are buying, but sellers who describe a product as something else or do not disclose important and unique details like this case are rotten salesmen.
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I checked the entire ebay ad and I don't notice anything shady. The sellers feedback is also pretty decent, I doubt he'd want to intentionally con people with that kinda feedback now.

I don't understand why you just don't talk it over with the seller rather than barking about it here and filing fraud claims.

Like I said, he should have disclosed this, but would an evaluation unit really have detterred you? What if it was another $100 less? Honestly, you most likley would have bought it considering that people on these forums bought from the guy with great sucess.

jcazes said:
FWIW, here is the listing: eBay

Since I purchased the item after the auction ended here is what he said in the email:

"it is new oem card as state in listing you've seen before contact me.
i am buy/sell for business living....
Every item i warranty against DOA 7 days after delivered.
Paypal direct Price $550 + $15 S/H/I."

I don't care who you are, this was not new/OEM
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I've pulled brand new evaluation units out of the sealed packaging, so yes, it can be new.

jcazes said:
No, I'm simply trying not to screw over the seller (because like I said, part of me thinks he was also unaware of what he was selling, and his listing about it being new/oem was only partially devious).

Bottom line--I want and am going to get a refund through a CC chargeback. Whether or not the guy receives a working card is probably entirely up to me, given his lack of knowledge about the card and connection to someone who has firmware that might work. I would not have bought the card had I known it was a demo, so I'm trying to get back to square 1 without destroying one of the two parties involved.
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So you believe now he was unaware what he was selling so you are going to screw him over anyways? Nice.

Why not talk it up with him and see if he can't compensate you. You know as well as I do that you would have bought the evaluation unit anways considering the cost of the card new retail... you may not say it now, but when you deal with such a discounted cost, risks are tempting.

The bottom line is you bit and paid for it. Now I'm not saying that you are not entitled to a refund or even partial, but I do believe you should harbor some of the blame becasue you flashed a working card.

This is ebay, you get what you pay for and sometimes you come out way ahead and sometimes you just have to swallow it. And before you tell me that I don't know, I've swallowed $10,000 so far as a result of ebay, but I'm still way ahead.
 
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Sorry Ockie. As a continous seller of a particular product catagory, you are expected to have higher standard and should know what you are selling. By withholding, not divulging or not knowing your product and advertising half truths, you should be liable for the conquences.

The law is on the consumers side and should be.

On the other hand, I'm glad you told me how you felt and will pay particular attention to whom I dealing with,on Ebay, here or anywhere.:D
 
OK, Ockie, I'm done combating your personal vendetta to defend the seller. We obviously disagree with where responsibility lies in a e-commerce, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

I started this thread to warn others about the firmware "time bomb", and included a bit of ranting because I was out $550. Many people asked questions, so I explained my experiences in hopes of preventing others from running into the same situation. I was having some issues getting Vista to recognize an expanded GPT disk of 3TB, and figured it might be as simple as a firmware update. No, I'm not a storage professional so laugh at this attempt at problem-solving all you want.

Contrary to your seasoned perception of these details being common knowledge, most people buying a RAID card probably don't know that something like Adaptec's measure is in place. Try searching "Adaptec eval cards" in Google and you will quickly see this thread is the number 1 search result. That alone proves the resources out there explaining this predicament.

And yes, he most likley would have bought it anyways as the card was recomended by several of us large storage folks are we are running it without any problems... same seller. Obviously, our guys have not flashed it because it worked.
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No, I would not have purchased the card for that amount had I known it was "eval" (the classification itself would have influenced me to ask Adaptec some questions). I would have gladly paid the price (and did) for an actual, 100% functional and capable (which means it won't DIE when I do a simple FIRMWARE upgrade) OEM card.

I don't understand why you just don't talk it over with the seller rather than barking about it here and filing fraud claims.
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Are you kidding me? Do you think I just went ape-shit and started hollering fraud? Did you even read my first few posts of the thread? I emailed the gentleman several times, and each time said something to the effect of "no refunds, card was working when it was shipped." Just like you, Ockie, he failed to realize the discrepancy in his listing and did not want to help me. Fortunately for all of us (and as Hippie mentioned), the law is on the consumer's side.

So you believe now he was unaware what he was selling so you are going to screw him over anyways? Nice.
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Reading comprehension fail. I DON'T want to screw the guy by sending back a dead card. I am going to try to flash to eval firmware when the other guy on this forum sends it to me. If it works, good deal. If not, I'm still sending it back and initiating a chargeback through my CC because the listing was incomplete and I did not receive the product he advertised.

This is ebay, you get what you pay for and sometimes you come out way ahead and sometimes you just have to swallow it. And before you tell me that I don't know, I've swallowed $10,000 so far as a result of ebay, but I'm still way ahead.
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Good for you. I will swallow a loss when it's my fault (and have done so in the past, with both cars and computer parts). Please stop thread-crapping and move on. This wasn't a personal thread against the guy until you made it seem like it.
 
Old Hippie said:
Sorry Ockie. As a continous seller of a particular product catagory, you are expected to have higher standard and should know what you are selling. By withholding, not divulging or not knowing your product and advertising half truths, you should be liable for the conquences.

The law is on the consumers side and should be.

On the other hand, I'm glad you told me how you felt and will pay particular attention to whom I dealing with,on Ebay, here or anywhere.:D
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I never said the seller was right, nor did I say the buyer was right either.

The law is on the consumers side and ebay/paypal is too, which is why their system is flawed a lot of times. You can litterally buy an item and charge back to it keeping the item, thats how a lot of sellers are scammed. Hell, a seller can't even leave bad feedback anymore.

Anyways, as for your comment about my practices, check out my heat and dig a little deeper, you will see that my trading practices here or on ebay are perfect. I don't have to do much convincing, my past record speaks in volumes.
 
jcazes said:
OK, Ockie, I'm done combating your personal vendetta to defend the seller. We obviously disagree with where responsibility lies in a e-commerce, and I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
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Actually, you failed at reading my posts. I never said the seller was right, but I also didn't say you were right. Some self responsibility for the win.

Anyways, last question, did you leave the guy feedback already?
 
you will see that my trading practices here or on ebay are perfect.
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I know it. I looked a long time ago. I wouldn't be afraid to do business with you.

I was just poking a little fun at ya for defending this particular seller. ;)

I've taken my fair share of lumps from unwise purchases and shady sellers, but in this specific case, I'd be doing the same thing as Jcazes.

Hard feelings are sometimes difficult to resolve and it was not my intention to create any.
 
Ockie said:
Actually, you failed at reading my posts. I never said the seller was right, but I also didn't say you were right. Some self responsibility for the win.

Anyways, last question, did you leave the guy feedback already?
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You did say the seller was right because you said the card the OP received was exactly what was advertised. That is not the case because an evaluation card cannot be an OEM card. An evaluation card is basically the same as an engineering sample. It's never meant to be used in a production environment and that's why the firmware isn't made to be flashed and upgraded.

Yes, engineering samples get out into the wild and obviously evaluation cards do as well. However, they aren't supposed to be out there and to say an evaluation card is OEM is like saying an engineering sample CPU is OEM or retail.

 
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