Best AM3 for 4870 now and 68xx later

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BecauseScience

[H]ard|Gawd
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I'm thinking about switching my e7200 / 4870 gaming machine to AMD. I'm interested in $150 or less AM3 quad and tricores. I might upgrade to a 68xx gpu in 6-12 months so that complicates things. This is what I want:

  • No loss of performance (relative to the e7200) on single threaded and lightly threaded games
  • Good performance on heavily threaded cpu hogs like GTA IV / Just Cause 2

It would be great if there was a single processor that would do for both the 4870 and 68xx. That seems unlikely so I'll probably be looking for two recommendations.

$150 is my maximum budget for cpu + cooler. For oem cpus deduct $30 to cover the cost of a budget cooler like the Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus.

Bang for the buck matters. I don't want to spend an additional $30-50 for a few fps difference. I'd be happy to spend $100 instead of $150 if it'll get me what I need. What I don't want is something that will only give me 80% of the fps my gpu could potentially deliver.

I care most about raising the minimum and average fps. Every number over 50 fps is the same as 50 fps to me. I'm a very casual gamer.

Assume stock / No OC.

Not interested in core unlocking.

I game at 1900x1200.

Not interested in apps, encoding, web browsing, etc. I have other machines for that.

This thread is about a switch to AMD. No "throw a used q6600 in there" replys please.


What about the Athlon II X4 640 Propus? It looks like a steal at $100 retail.
 
the 955 is the way to go. the athlon II x4 640 isnt a bad processor. but when it comes to gaming the lack of L3 cache does have an effect on some games. also the 955 overclocks better and is way easier to overclock since its a black edition processor. second the stock heatsink on the athlon II's are garbage. its just an aluminum block. same crap they use to sell with the old athlon x2's a few years back.

btw if you have a microcenter near you i highly suggest you check out microcenter before buying anything online because MC has some crazy sales on AMD processors.
 
Besides Microcenter (which rocks) check the FS/FT forum here. I got an X3 720 BE for 80$ off of the forum; it was cheaper than most of the used dual cores were going for. You run a bit of a risk buying used, but if price is really a concern you can save a bunch of money. And, like everyone says here, the 955 is a great chip.
 
sirmonkey1985 said:
also the 955 overclocks better and is way easier to overclock since its a black edition processor.
Click to expand...

I don't overclock.

sirmonkey1985 said:
second the stock heatsink on the athlon II's are garbage. its just an aluminum block. same crap they use to sell with the old athlon x2's a few years back.
Click to expand...

That sucks. I like a decent cooler.

sirmonkey1985 said:
btw if you have a microcenter near you i highly suggest you check out microcenter before buying anything online because MC has some crazy sales on AMD processors.
Click to expand...

It's many hundreds of miles to the nearest Microcenter or Fry's. :(

Alyosha said:
Besides Microcenter (which rocks) check the FS/FT forum here. I got an X3 720 BE for 80$ off of the forum; it was cheaper than most of the used dual cores were going for. You run a bit of a risk buying used, but if price is really a concern you can save a bunch of money. And, like everyone says here, the 955 is a great chip.
Click to expand...

I don't buy used. My fault for not mentioning it.

After reading reviews it looks like the Propus 640 on DDR3 is an adequate match for my 4870 at 1920x1200. For cpu bound games it shouldn't be worse than my e7200. For gpu bound games the fps is close to the Phenom 965BE and i5 750 at 1920x1200 with AA. Most games should lean more toward gpu bound at that resolution.

It even looks like the 640 would be fine for a 5870.

These are the more relavent bencharks I found:

http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/athlon2_x4_640/8.htm

http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/athlon2_x4_640/9.htm

http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/athlon2_x4_640/10.htm

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1297/9/

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1297/10/

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1297/11/

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2836/8

http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-athlon-ii-x4-620-review-test/14

My mind still isn't made up though. I don't like the idea of a crapy cooler and I can't find oem 640's anywhere. By the time I spend $30 on a budget cooler I'm only $25 away from a 955BE.
 
I think you're trying to convince yourself to go for the 640 too much. The 955 is far more worth it, especially if you're worried about the stock heatsink. The bench's you linked from overclockers showed a decent gap between the games if you ask me. Easily worth the $50 if you ask me. If you're keeping this CPU for a long time its more bang for the buck down the road as well.
 
the 955 is a better buy than the 640 any day.....it will OC very easily/well, last you longer, and have a higher OC Head (on average)

if you want a 640 get it and stop going *bah i dont knwo what to do, the 640 is awsome...what should i do.......* and then precede to just keep going that the 640 is a good match....if you think so just buy the dam thing and be happy
 
xBanzai89 said:
The 955 is far more worth it, especially if you're worried about the stock heatsink.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

xBanzai89 said:
The bench's you linked from overclockers showed a decent gap between the games if you ask me. Easily worth the $50 if you ask me.
Click to expand...

I respect that some people care about differences of that magnitude but for me the i5 and i7 are in one group and everything else is close enough to be about the same. Batman is the only one where I see a significant difference between the Phenom II and the other AMD chips.

IronRuler said:
730BE FOR THE WIN. Find some gaming benches. The x3 keeps up with everything.
Click to expand...

I just started looking at X3 benches.

W.Feather said:
the 955 is a better buy than the 640 any day.....it will OC very easily/well, last you longer, and have a higher OC Head (on average)
Click to expand...

You missed this first two times. It's in bright red letters in the very first post.

Stock Only / No OC

I'd write it in damn blinking text if I could.

W.Feather said:
if you want a 640 get it and stop going *bah i dont knwo what to do, the 640 is awsome...what should i do.......* and then precede to just keep going that the 640 is a good match....if you think so just buy the dam thing and be happy
Click to expand...

I appreciate additional constructive advice and links to benches but I don't need that crap. Go do it in someone else's thread.
 
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I'll up you one with a 955 135 dollars shipped with coupon code AUTUMN5. 10 dollars difference now if you want that after market cpu cooler.
 
I typed up a response saying exactly what you specified is not a valid answer: throw a used Q6600 in there. If you care about bang for your buck so much that spending more money for a few FPS is out of the question, sell you e7200, spend $40 out of pocket for a Q6600, and save a potential $110. Bang for your buck does not mean buying the most economical CPU after buying a new motherboard.

If you do want to spend more money than you have to, both on a new AMD Black Edition CPU with an unlocked multiplier and an upgraded HSF, not overclocking it is foolish. I can't understand the reasoning behind that... at all.
 
GTX 460 CPU scaling guide

The GTX 460 1GB is close in performance to the HD6850, and you can use the overclocked GTX460 results as a guide to HD6870 performance.

Shows the difference between the AMD Athlon II X4, Phenom II X4 and X6 in games. As many have said, go for the Phenom II if you can afford it, L3 cache makes a big difference in most games. Even a Phenom X3 would be better than an Athlon II X4 in games.
 
xBanzai89 said:
I'll up you one with a 955 135 dollars shipped with coupon code AUTUMN5. 10 dollars difference now if you want that after market cpu cooler.
Click to expand...

I found the ewiz price after my last reply last night. I didn't know about the coupon code though. Thanks!

bore_u2_death said:
I typed up a response saying exactly what you specified is not a valid answer: throw a used Q6600 in there. If you care about bang for your buck so much that spending more money for a few FPS is out of the question, sell you e7200, spend $40 out of pocket for a Q6600, and save a potential $110. Bang for your buck does not mean buying the most economical CPU after buying a new motherboard.
Click to expand...

I want to free-up parts in the gaming pc for use in other machines. The gaming machine will get a cpu upgrade + ddr3 + new motherboard in the process.

When someone gives conditions in their post please assume that they have good reasons and realize that you don't need to understand them. Asking someone to justify their conditions wastes everybody's time, pushes threads off topic, and generally leads to pointless arguing over personal preferences.

bore_u2_death said:
If you do want to spend more money than you have to, both on a new AMD Black Edition CPU with an unlocked multiplier and an upgraded HSF, not overclocking it is foolish. I can't understand the reasoning behind that... at all.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't upgrade the hsf on the 955. We were talking about upgrading the hsf on the 640.

The time spent doing an OC would cut into my already severely limited gaming time. Totally not worth it for me. I can't buy free time. I can buy a faster chip. Again, personal preferences... OC makes sense for some; doesn't make sense for others.

harpoon said:
GTX 460 CPU scaling guide

The GTX 460 1GB is close in performance to the HD6850, and you can use the overclocked GTX460 results as a guide to HD6870 performance.

Shows the difference between the AMD Athlon II X4, Phenom II X4 and X6 in games. As many have said, go for the Phenom II if you can afford it, L3 cache makes a big difference in most games. Even a Phenom X3 would be better than an Athlon II X4 in games.
Click to expand...

Awesome. Exactly what I was looking for!

I looked into X3's last night. Only the 710 is available retail at newegg. The oem 740 seems to trade blows with the 955 but by the time I added a cooler I might as well get a 955.

The only two options that make sense to me at this point are:
  1. Athlon II X4 640 and be happy with the crappy retail cooler.
  2. Phemon II X4 955.

I haven't chosen a board yet. I looked briefly last night. Looks like the 955 will require a more expensive board than the 640 so that might put a few more dollars difference between the two options. Looks like I should go start a motherboard thread. Thanks to everyone for the input.
 
The 955 doesn't require a better motherboard then a 640. What board are you looking at? :confused:
 
xBanzai89 said:
The 955 doesn't require a better motherboard then a 640. What board are you looking at? :confused:
Click to expand...

It was the 125w support. It seemed like all the am3 boards with 125w support from decent companies were $80-100. It was a quick search and it was late.

I found some candidates in the $50-80 range today although 125w support isn't so certain on some. For instance, the Biostar A770E3 Version 6 lists 95w on newegg and in the manual. The specs on the Biostar Taiwan website are 125w and there are bunch of 125w processors (including the 955 and X6's) on the supported cpu list. The question is whether it needs a bios update for 125w support. I'm all Intel at the moment...no way to flash an AMD board. Out of the box C3 support is another concern.

I like Biostar, Foxconn, Gigabyte, and MSI. I prefer Gigabyte for gaming builds and Foxconn for office builds.

There's the GA-MA78LMT-S2 for $65. It could be an ok board but there isn't much info about it. I like to see a good number of favorable user reviews or good word of mouth on the forums. The S2 has neither as far as I can tell.
 
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What is your time limit on the purchase, OP? The reason I ask, there are a new series of chips coming from AMD soon which will change the pricing of current chips. And they're coming pretty soon, like in a matter of weeks. Then the 965BE will cost about what the 955BE does today, and you'll have 3.4 ghz right out of the box which is a very decent speed for these PII's. Running at 1920x1200 it'll be quite sufficient unless you've got some kind of Xfire/SLI setup; it'd certainly keep a single 6800 series card well-fed.
 
I just spent the last 15 mintes looking over all the replies to your initial post and so on. Here's how I see it and I'm gonna lay it down for you.

So, your jumping ship and looking to take on a different company to provide you with the CPU for your computer (great! that meens you lack brand loyalty and I respect that). Now you're riddled with the dilema of lacking any spare CPU(s) if the situation presents itself that the motherboard purchased for the CPU you're interested in lacks a compatible BIOS, I've been in that situation before and it isen't a comfortable feeling. My concern is your overall budget, no more than $150 total for CPU and heatsink, what were you looking on spending on the combination of new board and have you taken into consideration plunking down some cash on RAM? You want to keep the current CPU as a carry over for a later comptuer build nor want to buy any used merchandise (I don't build off of used either, if it's not factory sealed, I don't buy it). Now you have pretty much made it clear you favor 2 CPUs in general and I'm not gonna criticize you on either, also don't mind the stock heatsink on the Athlon ll X4, it may not be as pretty as the Phenoms but it'll do the job (especially since you're not gonna OC). Screw "future proofing" cause in computer land there's no such thing, over time the CPU you purchase now will be about as respectful as a paper weight come years from now (regardless the price). Out of the two parts a motherboard will carry you further than a CPU.

So here's my input, If you're not leaving the decision up to a coin toss go for your gut instinct. Yep! I'm not telling you which one to get, after all you're not handing me a check and telling me to buy you what ever I feel is best (cause it's not what I feel is best,it's what you feel is best) .It seems as if your mind is pretty well made up from what I read and if deep inside it's what makes you feel comfortable,it's gonna be what has you feeling more comfortable after your purchase.You have a particular interest and with it rides a burden of doubt, all the feedback in the world won't relieve you of it neither. So go ahead and buy that CPU you want :D
 
kristof said:
It was the 125w support. It seemed like all the am3 boards with 125w support from decent companies were $80-100. It was a quick search and it was late.

I found some candidates in the $50-80 range today although 125w support isn't so certain on some. For instance, the Biostar A770E3 Version 6 lists 95w on newegg and in the manual. The specs on the Biostar Taiwan website are 125w and there are bunch of 125w processors (including the 955 and X6's) on the supported cpu list. The question is whether it needs a bios update for 125w support. I'm all Intel at the moment...no way to flash an AMD board. Out of the box C3 support is another concern.

I like Biostar, Foxconn, Gigabyte, and MSI. I prefer Gigabyte for gaming builds and Foxconn for office builds.

There's the GA-MA78LMT-S2 for $65. It could be an ok board but there isn't much info about it. I like to see a good number of favorable user reviews or good word of mouth on the forums. The S2 has neither as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...

Just dump the idea of getting a 760G. The minimum you should be looking at is a 785G imo. The 880G would be best. Do have to have mATX? You can spend 15 dollars and get a way better board. You're cheaping out WAY too much.
 
Jalidi said:
What is your time limit on the purchase, OP? The reason I ask, there are a new series of chips coming from AMD soon which will change the pricing of current chips. And they're coming pretty soon, like in a matter of weeks. Then the 965BE will cost about what the 955BE does today, and you'll have 3.4 ghz right out of the box which is a very decent speed for these PII's. Running at 1920x1200 it'll be quite sufficient unless you've got some kind of Xfire/SLI setup; it'd certainly keep a single 6800 series card well-fed.
Click to expand...

No limit. I could wait. Is there a firm release date?

eric_bazile said:
I just spent the last 15 mintes looking over all the replies to your initial post and so on. Here's how I see it and I'm gonna lay it down for you.

So, your jumping ship and looking to take on a different company to provide you with the CPU for your computer (great! that meens you lack brand loyalty and I respect that).
Now you're riddled with the dilema of lacking any spare CPU(s) if the situation presents itself that the motherboard purchased for the CPU you're interested in lacks a compatible BIOS, I've been in that situation before and it isen't a comfortable feeling. My concern is your overall budget, no more than $150 total for CPU and heatsink, what were you looking on spending on the combination of new board and have you taken into consideration plunking down some cash on RAM?
Click to expand...

I don't have a hard limit on what I could spend. It's more what I'm comfortable spending given the amount of time I game and the relative importance of it in my life. I like to keep cpu, board, ram in the $200-300 range. I'm happy to bump that up for better price/performance as long as the higher performance is something I will definitely use. When I get up around $300 I feel like I'm wasting money that I'd prefer to use elsewhere. My gaming pc is the "low man on the totem pole" of my hardware budget and pc hardware is far from the most important place I can put my money.

I built a fairly nice 775 gaming box a while back. I had a few 3-4 hour gaming sessions on it and then found myself too busy to touch it for about a year. I've had a few 3-4 hour sessions on it since then. As I said in an earlier post I like to keep the gaming stuff on a seperate machine. When I don't have gaming time the box sits unused, losing value. GPU's are the real killer there.

For this upgrade I'm thinking:

board $50-70
cpu $100-150
memory $60-75

If I had to spend $80-90 on a board I doubt that I'd spend $150 on the X4 955. Add 4gb of ddr3 and I'd be looking at around $300.

eric_bazile said:
Screw "future proofing" cause in computer land there's no such thing, over time the CPU you purchase now will be about as respectful as a paper weight come years from now (regardless the price).
Click to expand...

I used to play the future proofing game. For me, it resulted in a lot of over-buying with no benefit.

Now I buy what I need with some consideration to what I might need over the next 6 months and minor consideration for the next 12 months. CPU and disk are always cheaper 6-12 from now.

eric_bazile said:
Out of the two parts a motherboard will carry you further than a CPU.
Click to expand...

I've been building PC's for about 16 years and I've never kept a motherboard across multiple cpus. Unusual? Maybe. By the time the system is underpowered enough for me to care the socket and/or memory standard is near EOL and the premium parts needed for a significant upgrade aren't a good value. Case in point: q9xxx cpus and 4gb ddr2 sticks.

It's always been better for me to go with a newer platform. Also, I've found that people are always looking for old motherboards. Boards die a lot more frequently than cpus and memory. I can usually sell a budget to midrange board for within $10-20 of what I originally paid. I've recently sold a couple 775 boards at no loss at all. I got 1-2 years of use for nothing.

xBanzai89 said:
Just dump the idea of getting a 760G. The minimum you should be looking at is a 785G imo. The 880G would be best.
Click to expand...

I haven't been looking at any specific chipset. I've been narrowing down by brand, price, X4 955 support, and favorable reviews. For some reason the 880G boards have very few reviews. Less than 25 user reviews and little "forum buzz" make me wary.

The Biostar A770E3 happens to have 955 support and good reviews while also being very cheap. It's a 770 board not a 760G board. Regardless, if people think 8xx NB is the way to go I'll take the advice.

xBanzai89 said:
Do have to have mATX?
Click to expand...

I have a full ATX setup. I prefer ATX over mATX but I don't care enough to pay a $30-40 premium for an ATX board.

I have an Antec 300 so case airflow is pretty good.

xBanzai89 said:
You can spend 15 dollars and get a way better board. You're cheaping out WAY too much.
Click to expand...

When it comes to my gaming machine cheaping out is how I roll. ;)

My requirements are very low. I need one 16x pcie 2.0, two sata (3gb/s is fine), one usb, am3, two ddr3 slots, 125w support, and decent memory compatibility on board that's not flaky and won't die prematurely.

I see a couple of 880G candidates around the $60 mark:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=13-138-283
BIOSTAR A880G+
880G/SB710
125w suport out of the box
decent reviews
no pcie 1x or 4x
only two ddr3 slots
QVL memory list is SHORT

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=13-157-199
ASRock 880GM-LE
880G/SB710
125w suport out of the box
not many reviews but reviews are decent
has pcie 1x
only two ddr3 slots
QVL memory list is long
it's an asrock

(Things in red are minuses but not deal breakers.)

I probably don't have enough experience with Asrock to judge them. Maybe they're no worse than Biostar...

BTW, thanks for all the constructive comments guys. It's been very helpful so far.
 
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I've got an X4 965 BE NIB I'll send your way for a good price if your interested PM me. Won it at a lan and really have no use for it.
 
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1558607

I have bought several MSI 785GM-P45 boards and Phenom II 555 x2 (ends up being $118 out the door, plus it has a $20 MIR)

all of the Phenom II 555 that I have bought (so far 8 of them and counting) have unlocked to full quad core and they have clock very well

that laves you a lot of change for a cooler, after the rebate the package deal is less than $100!

the only thing you really need to do is add a small cooler to the VRMs on the motherboard

alternatively you could get the propus for around the same price
 
You can do what you want for under $300... Not even cutting any corners.

I'm an almost pure AMD user myself. And ya, the stock coolers are junk... for overclocking. But running stock speeds, they are just peachy. Plus, you can always add another cooler later on if you find out your chip is running a bit too hot. However, I've run a 965 in the Antec 300 case myself on stock cooling just fine.

Anyhow; an example of not cutting any corners; (Prices from Newegg)

$290.97 or $297.74 shipped... And that's a top-end chip and ram with a motherboard that meets your requirements.

Now I've got the 965 and also a new fan-dangled 1090T. Accept for video-editing I do, I see no difference in gaming. The 955 will be a kick-butt chip and will last for some time. The next-gen CPUs won't be AM3 Socket anyhow so no need to worry about future capability.

As for the memory; I have now built 9 computers with G.SKILL memory (Ripjaws specifically) and have not had any problems what-so-ever. I used to be a Mushkin-only user but have been very impressed with G.SKILL (so much I even recently bought one of their SSDs. It also did not dissapoint.) Plus CAS 7... Hard to beat... Good performance ram. You could also go CAS 8 or 9 and save a few bucks also. Most likely you'd never know the difference. My gaming rig right now has CAS 9 in it (got an 8G set of CAS 9 Ripjaws for stupid-cheap so thought why not). I can really only tell the difference If I benchmark for it.

As for my qualifications; I'm a computer professional (Software Engineer by trade) and hardware builder. I build computers for billion dollar companies (no joke) and individuals alike. You might even have seen some of my public reviews here on [H]. Here's one: SirGCal's BenQ Review

As for the 4870; I still am using an overclocked and re-biosed 4890 (I did custom fan settings in the bios myself but the OC was as-purchased) and still have no problem with any games today. I'm waiting out for the 6970 to show up but only because I want one. I do not 'need' one by any means.

So; simply put, if you want to do this; you can, easily, get a killer CPU and AM3 setup complete with 4G of gaming-class CAS 7 memory shipped to you for under $300. No problem. (Personally, I'd spend a touch more for a better motherboard but other than that, this as-speced setup is kick-butt. And as you may now know, I upgrade way too often so...) The 955 will most likely easily overclock to at least 965 levels if not much higher (3.8GHz) if you just add a bit of better cooling and know how to actually do it. But even at stock settings, I guarantee it will not disappoint. And honestly, even if you went nuts for the 1090T, you wound not notice much of any difference from the much cheaper 955 in gaming. It's a good strong chip. That's good strong memory (and cheaper CAS 9 options are another option even). G.SKIlL Ripjaws DDR3 1333 CAS 9 version ($64.99), save you $15.

If you want to do it; do it. Waiting for something else to come out to make everything cheaper is a never-ending loop. It's ALWAYS just around the corner. When what you wants is in your budget, buy it. Don't think about what's coming unless it's going to be upgradable to that new tech (not in this case from the news I've seen). Use the stock cooler for now, upgrade it later only if you need to. Not overclocking, you will not 'need' to... They work just peachy for stock speeds or AMD wouldn't include them. Pretty simple logic. And I have 4 systems right now in the house (550, 955, 965 AM3's and older 5000+ AM2+) all running on stock cooling.

The only downsides to the stock coolers sold with the Retail AMD Chips:
  • Limited overclock-ability
  • Can be louder under full load
  • Case needs proper ventilation (no problem for you with the Antec 300)

But if you're not planning to overclock, this should not be any issue at all. And if you do, simply upgrade your cooler down the road.

Sorry my post was long and somewhat repeating, but I wanted to make sure I covered the questions completely. However if you have any, I'd be happy to provide my opinion or answer.

EDIT: Ohh, the 560 could save you ~$50 (the 555 only a few more, go 560), but honestly, I can tell quite a bit of difference from my 550 and 955 in games. If you want cheap, the 560 (555) is a great chip. But the 955 is a great sweet spot for cost/performance. If you have a $300 budget, I'd consider it for sure. But the choice is yours. You could go 560 and a more fully-featured motherboard (USB 3, etc.) for example... But for a gaming rig, it's likely not necessary and I'd go stronger CPU instead. However if you overclock/unlock, you could probably get reliable 955-ish performance from a 560... But even not, it's not THAT much difference. Plus again is very game dependent. Any single-core games won't be much different.

So if you went with the above board, the 560, and the above CAS 9 version of the ram, you could do it for: $229.74 shipped. It would be a bit slower but still a potent gaming rig. Obviously game dependent but... If you asked my opinion, and do not want to overclock, and have 3 bills to spend, I'd spend it; but that's just me. Either system should game for you for quite some time.
 
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