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BFGTech and XFX GeForce 8600 GTS @ [H]
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somecallmeTim
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Having just spent a week working some new LCD modules.. doing the same tests over and over, trying a few different things, wash hands, rince, repeat... All I can say to Brent and crew... Well done - I can appreciate the time and effort to see what these 8600 series cards are capable of.
I lost faith in benchmarks back in the late 1980's when I was a manager of midrange systems (IBM S/36 and AS/400) - it was all about "transaction processing" and "mega flops" and "database this" and "database that". It ended up being just numbers in a pristine environment that had no bearing on real world applications. What good is code optimized to do transaction benchmarks when no body does just transactions all day. What was my bottom like? How much shorter were my backups? How much quicker did my invoices generate? How much shorter was the time it took to transfer POs from the purchasing system to AP?
Same goes with Video cards.. I don't give a crap what some synthetic benchmark says... I can tweak my system, and have, to get me fantastic results in benchmarks, and it ran games like crap. Give me real world results. Would you buy a car based on specs and "readings" done in the lab without actually getting behind the wheel and taking it for a drive and seeing for yourself? I know I wouldn't. Sometimes specs can be a big difference, sometimes they don't mean crap. Especially with cars...
Anyway, another excellent write up that took a lot of time to gather the data for - if Kyle will let you ... take a day off, have a beer and a loooong nap.
I lost faith in benchmarks back in the late 1980's when I was a manager of midrange systems (IBM S/36 and AS/400) - it was all about "transaction processing" and "mega flops" and "database this" and "database that". It ended up being just numbers in a pristine environment that had no bearing on real world applications. What good is code optimized to do transaction benchmarks when no body does just transactions all day. What was my bottom like? How much shorter were my backups? How much quicker did my invoices generate? How much shorter was the time it took to transfer POs from the purchasing system to AP?
Same goes with Video cards.. I don't give a crap what some synthetic benchmark says... I can tweak my system, and have, to get me fantastic results in benchmarks, and it ran games like crap. Give me real world results. Would you buy a car based on specs and "readings" done in the lab without actually getting behind the wheel and taking it for a drive and seeing for yourself? I know I wouldn't. Sometimes specs can be a big difference, sometimes they don't mean crap. Especially with cars...
Anyway, another excellent write up that took a lot of time to gather the data for - if Kyle will let you ... take a day off, have a beer and a loooong nap.
Great review as always, but what I'm REALLY wondering about is the performance under DX10.... It would really suck to get a new "DX10" capable card and find out when it comes time that DX10 performance sucks....
Any ideas on the release of DX 10 and the games to go with it?
Any ideas on the release of DX 10 and the games to go with it?
somecallmeTim
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The idea is to remove the CPU and the rest of the system as a factor - this way, the video card stands on it's own merit. Put in a slower CPU, and you'll have slower results.
Michaelius
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You can discredit the benchmarking method til the end of time, the fact of that matter is the results are pretty consistent. EVERYONE else is showing the 8600GTS as just meeting performance par for the price range in the majority of games. This is even seen in BF2142 and WoW in this [H] review. I attribute the overwhelmingly positive conclusion on the fact that coincidentally [H] used games that the GeForce 8 series does well in, such as Oblivion and STALKER, and this is seen in "canned" benchmarks around the web as well (though as pointed out games like Oblivion have to be played regardless). It's one word over many, and that's a little hard to ignore.
That being said, the "mediocre" performance people claim the card to have is a little short-sighted. The 8600GTS generally doubles the performance of the 7600GT, which was the goal. The 7600GT doubled the 6600GT, so the tradition continues, this isn't really a weak card. The fact that the 8600GTS has to contend with a large number of highend previous gen cards priced at midrange levels is a remarkable circumstance and hardly ordinary. But even compared to those it usually at least matches them.
That being said, the "mediocre" performance people claim the card to have is a little short-sighted. The 8600GTS generally doubles the performance of the 7600GT, which was the goal. The 7600GT doubled the 6600GT, so the tradition continues, this isn't really a weak card. The fact that the 8600GTS has to contend with a large number of highend previous gen cards priced at midrange levels is a remarkable circumstance and hardly ordinary. But even compared to those it usually at least matches them.
Digital Viper-X-
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The idea is to remove the CPU and the rest of the system as a factor - this way, the video card stands on it's own merit. Put in a slower CPU, and you'll have slower results.
Thats not true, the Idea is also to Show Real world gameplay situations, throw in a slower machine IMO with the high end one.
Is it worth to go from a 7600GT or 7900GS to 8600GT if I'm using an X2 3800 or a Pentium D 945 (etc etc)
made for gaming or not, Oblivion can not be tested with a scripted run, so it's manual runthrough, aka playing them
many other games need to be and are tested this way at various sites, and they all show the 8600GTS trailing X1950 Pro in the majority of them.
example: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=392&type=expert&pid=7
Brent, you know that there is no timedemo or benchmark for Oblivion
You failed to mention that it does better than the X1950 Pro and trails the $270 X1900XT (Newegg was the only one I could find)
And thats in Vista 64, where nvidia doesn't have the best of drivers.
Digital Viper-X-
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I definetly don't agree with you, real world gaming reviews > raw power reviews, I don't care what this card will do at a controlled setting, I want to know what it is capable of doing rather then how many fps I get @ settings I can't play at, who cares if I get 5fps @ 1600x1200? or 600fps @ 1024x768?
The language in the article is fairly straightforward. I didn't see any terms or phrases that really jumped out - Brent said it's a great card for the price, that the performance is very good compared to the X1950s, that the architecture is highly efficient (which it is), but that it might still make much more sense to go for the 8800 GTS.
I'm not sure what article you read, quite frankly.
When you are comparing cards, it is not fair to have different settings for each card. Who is to say what settings are playable for you? I wont take less than 60.....others would be ok with 40.
They should be tested at different resolutions and at least mid settings and high settings. Not this bogus mixture of high, med, low, AA on, AF on, AA off, AF off etc for each card. Thats not telling me anything, especially when they show only 1 combo of them.
If I was a moron, I would read this review and say "wow, this would be a great card to get over my 7900 GS since the reviewer is so glowing with joy and he says this card kills the 7 series!"
Very bad "review"
"AMD/ATI should be very worried at this point. NVIDIA just released their entire DX10 mainstream lineup and it delivers. Compared to ATIs current generation the GeForce 8600 GTS kicks its butt. Compared to NVIDIAs own last generation, GeForce 7 series, the GeForce 8600 GTS kicks its butt. We experienced the highest playable settings we have ever seen at this price range. The XFX GeForce 8600 GTS XXX Edition is one of the best gaming video cards we have ever used at $239.99."
Its right on the conclusion page my friend. Kicks a Geforce 7900GS or GT butt? They must have been high when doing these "tests"
Digital Viper-X-
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I think when they made the comment about the 7 series it was referring to the 7600GT, maybe they needed to be more specific,
Great review guys! And what a good card. I'm very impressed. I never thought that with "only" 32 SPs, it would do so well.
I was one of those that hoped for a 64 SPs card, but it seems the 8600 GTS doesn't require that much, to offer excellent performance for the price.
I was one of those that hoped for a 64 SPs card, but it seems the 8600 GTS doesn't require that much, to offer excellent performance for the price.
Off topic :
Most probably done in sub zero temp in Norway. That's cheating
(refering to hardware.no)
Back on topic :
I wonder how the 8600 GTS plays in driving games ie: NFS Carbon ? Any benchmark yet ?
Also wonder how does this card perform in SLI ...
Most probably done in sub zero temp in Norway. That's cheating
(refering to hardware.no)
Back on topic :
I wonder how the 8600 GTS plays in driving games ie: NFS Carbon ? Any benchmark yet ?
Also wonder how does this card perform in SLI ...
It's an evaluation, not a review. This is about the author's perspective on the product, and his experiences with it, not so much a hard-as-nails, apples-to-apples type of methodical review. They're different things.
I'm not particularly fond of them either, but you take them for what they're worth. If you don't like them, fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong. You read the article because you want a well-formed opinion, not because you want very detailed numbers. Besides, there are other articles/reviews you need to read before you make up your mind, which is why [H] clearly links to them on the front page.
I don't see any false or overly exaggerated statements at any point in the article. It's pretty typical [H] format.
somecallmeTim
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That's because it isn't a "review" - that's like saying "hey, this apple tastes like an orange". Sure they are both fruits, but completely different. They each server their purpose.
You want to look for the Radeon x1950XT 256mb if you're searching on Newegg. After rebate, it comes out to $189. The performance is the same as the 1900XT, but at that price, it becomes a much stronger price/performer to contend with.
This is a matter of choice. Some prefer the timedemos, others prefer the type of evaluations [H] provides.
IMHO, I prefer to see that in this game, this card will alow me to push the in-game settings up to this point, than just the Resolution/AA/AF trio found in all other "review" sites.
[H] basically does what I do when I install a game and run it. First I try to run the game at full settings. If it's sluggish or slow, I'll adjust the in-game settings, until it's actually playable. Other "review" sites never did this, to the best of my knowledge.
You're glad with just the Resolution/AA/AF trio, but that means nothing to me. I need something else and that's exactly what [H] offers.
I'd like to see these cards held up against the 7950/7900GT cards, which are currently occupying the same $200-ish space. These 8600s may be the bee's knees and all that compared to the 7600s, but when the 7900s are under such a heavy discount, there may be more mileage to the dollar from them.
Caffeinated
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Very good review. Thanks for the hard work!
Exactly what I'm thinking.
My MSI X1950pro can easily take Oblivion at 1280x1024 with plenty of eye candy and good frame rates....Why on earth was it on 1024x768 in the review?
Strange how the X1950pro got so much crappier than earlier reviews?
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTE5OCw0LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI2NSwzLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI5OSwzLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
Brent_Justice
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First of all, Multi-Quote feature FTW!
Yes, we've got an XFX 8600 GT factory overclocked video card here that we will evaluate.
We are using a slower CPU, an E6600 which is very appropriate to remove CPU bottlenecking. For high-end we use an X6800.
The link you posted says the 8600 GTS leads in Oblivion.
Thank you for the kind words, appreciate it
No idea, most likely not until Summer or fall However, there may be some patches out sooner in May maybe, I think CoH might be getting one, need to check.
It isn't a scientific review, it is a subjective evaluation. We install the video cards, play games on them, post our experiences, find out which one is faster and allows a better gaming experience (which means higher in-game settings/higher resolution/higher aa/af).
Refering more to the 7600 series this replaces.
Perhaps I should have noted, we are using the new 1.2 patch for Oblivion. This new patch fixes that LOD issue with textures, but in doing so the game is slower with the new patch. Therefore performance changed in Oblivion with the new patch on the X1950 Pro.
Yes, we've got an XFX 8600 GT factory overclocked video card here that we will evaluate.
We are using a slower CPU, an E6600 which is very appropriate to remove CPU bottlenecking. For high-end we use an X6800.
made for gaming or not, Oblivion can not be tested with a scripted run, so it's manual runthrough, aka playing them
many other games need to be and are tested this way at various sites, and they all show the 8600GTS trailing X1950 Pro in the majority of them.
example: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=392&type=expert&pid=7
"The 8600GTS delivers 40% of the performance of the 320MB 8800GTS for 70% of the price."
so far for bang for the buck
14th May rumors goes
Brent, you know that there is no timedemo or benchmark for Oblivion
The link you posted says the 8600 GTS leads in Oblivion.
Having just spent a week working some new LCD modules.. doing the same tests over and over, trying a few different things, wash hands, rince, repeat... All I can say to Brent and crew... Well done - I can appreciate the time and effort to see what these 8600 series cards are capable of.
I lost faith in benchmarks back in the late 1980's when I was a manager of midrange systems (IBM S/36 and AS/400) - it was all about "transaction processing" and "mega flops" and "database this" and "database that". It ended up being just numbers in a pristine environment that had no bearing on real world applications. What good is code optimized to do transaction benchmarks when no body does just transactions all day. What was my bottom like? How much shorter were my backups? How much quicker did my invoices generate? How much shorter was the time it took to transfer POs from the purchasing system to AP?
Same goes with Video cards.. I don't give a crap what some synthetic benchmark says... I can tweak my system, and have, to get me fantastic results in benchmarks, and it ran games like crap. Give me real world results. Would you buy a car based on specs and "readings" done in the lab without actually getting behind the wheel and taking it for a drive and seeing for yourself? I know I wouldn't. Sometimes specs can be a big difference, sometimes they don't mean crap. Especially with cars...
Anyway, another excellent write up that took a lot of time to gather the data for - if Kyle will let you ... take a day off, have a beer and a loooong nap.
Thank you for the kind words, appreciate it
No idea, most likely not until Summer or fall
However, there may be some patches out sooner in May maybe, I think CoH might be getting one, need to check.It isn't a scientific review, it is a subjective evaluation. We install the video cards, play games on them, post our experiences, find out which one is faster and allows a better gaming experience (which means higher in-game settings/higher resolution/higher aa/af).
Refering more to the 7600 series this replaces.
Perhaps I should have noted, we are using the new 1.2 patch for Oblivion. This new patch fixes that LOD issue with textures, but in doing so the game is slower with the new patch. Therefore performance changed in Oblivion with the new patch on the X1950 Pro.
The 8500GT is on sale, not sure if its actually in the store or not, but they are not showing it as out of stock (as they are with the 8600GT and 8600GTS) which seems weird.
http://www.memoryexpress.com/index.php?PageTag=&page=file&memx_menu=EmbedProductDetail.php&DisplayProductID=10112&SID=
Spotted this at Memory Express (Alberta, Canada Oriented).
I'll have to go check it out later today and see if they have any of the cards in at all. Everything looks to be out of stock but the 8500GT.
Blue
http://www.memoryexpress.com/index.php?PageTag=&page=file&memx_menu=EmbedProductDetail.php&DisplayProductID=10112&SID=
Spotted this at Memory Express (Alberta, Canada Oriented).
I'll have to go check it out later today and see if they have any of the cards in at all. Everything looks to be out of stock but the 8500GT.
Blue
Brent_Justice
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I think the 8500 GT is going to be very slow for gaming, not what I would prefer as a gaming video card.
We will have to see how the 8600 GT does with overclocking, cause that could be a killer deal if it can OC go GTS levels.
We will have to see how the 8600 GT does with overclocking, cause that could be a killer deal if it can OC go GTS levels.
Digital Viper-X-
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I don't consider an E6600 to be in the same range as an 8600GTS, maybe an E6400/6300 or an AMD X2 5200? =p I think the differences there wouldn't be "as appearent" also that would be sort of similar to what you guys did on Core 2 launch.
Commander Suzdal
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One of the reviews linked on the front page found the 8600GT to OC within a hair of GTS performance (I think it was LegitReviews), but they warn that with the lack of supplemental power, the extra power draw with the OC might come dangerously close to blowing the mobo or the card.
Maybe try reading the settings?
New Review: Shadows on, Trees, etc Range Max
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/images/articles/11763129813hYM7R3Fqx_6_3.gif
Older Review: Shadows OFF, Trees, etc Range Medium
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/images/articles/1160859626XpHjVCyLRe_4_2.gif
ZOMG its a conspiracy!!!
Go back to reading your canned benchies if you don't care about real world application and what max settings you would actually get out of the card.
I read the reviews here because they show you what settings you can best get out of the card, not what settings you can run X games benchmark at.
I want playable settings, best visuals for performance.
Brent_Justice
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Interesting, I think testing the power draw will be important so that is exactly what we will do when we evaluate it.
Rivatuner is working great for controlling my fan, I have it speed up to 80% and then to 100% (defaults @ 60%) as it gets warmer.
8800 Fan Speed Guide: http://home.comcast.net/~boogieman1954/8800 fan speed guide.htm
Hmm.. Good write-up although I can't say I agree with it. Your tests show that it beats the x1950pro most of the time by not a huge margin (and this is the overclocked version we're talking about. I doubt the non-overclocked version beats the x1950pro by much at all). Well the x1950pro can be had for $135AR right now and doesn't lag too far behind while the 8600GTS is $200 (add 20 or 30 for the overclocked version). Sure the price will drop but so will the x1950. DX10 right now is useless and will remain that way for awhile. Even when the games do start coming out, are these cards really going to be powerful enough to notice a big difference between DX9 and 10? I don't know how can you go as far to say that the 8600GTS should be the only card on your list if you're in the market for a mainstream video card. I would much rather save $60 and sacrifice DX10 for basically the same performance.
And this is only based off your results, however "pathetic" other results may be.
And this is only based off your results, however "pathetic" other results may be.
Well you probably shouldn't use them all at the same time, just offering another suggestion. I use rivatuner for everything. Works excellent for fan control, and I was ocing but found no point since I'm not needing the extra performance (need new monitor first
). It was doing auto-clocking for 2d/3d easily however.Did I ever say otherwise
it's one of the rare games where 8600GTS leads, that and Rainbow Six and STALKER, all other games it trails X1950Pro.
Brent_Justice
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Did I ever say otherwise
it's one of the rare games where 8600GTS leads, that and Rainbow Six and STALKER, all other games it trails X1950Pro.
It isn't trailing in FS X, BF 2142 or WoW. It was actually a lot faster in FS X, slightly faster in WoW, and marginally faster in BF 2142 unless you are using the OC version, then it is noticably faster.
I think it was a great review, and I come here for these. My only beef however seems to be the bit of overenthusiasm that others have pointed out in regards to value for price with this series. From my standpoint as a consumer, these cards do not in fact represent a good value at all when looking at the options out there and doing price/performance analysis.
Good review though and thanks for the hard work you do in presenting these insights to the community here.
Good review though and thanks for the hard work you do in presenting these insights to the community here.
I wonder if they didn't disable the higher levels of AA in the control panel when doing some of the tests on PC Perspective.
Comparing your BF2142 review to theirs, you have 2xTR MSAA / 16xAF and max settings, and get much BETTER FPS than their 4x AA / 8xAF.
As BF2142 is one of the games that I know takes advantage of the control panel settings I bet they forgot to configure those right.
That or Vista/Drivers are causing the slowdowns.
Comparing your BF2142 review to theirs, you have 2xTR MSAA / 16xAF and max settings, and get much BETTER FPS than their 4x AA / 8xAF.
As BF2142 is one of the games that I know takes advantage of the control panel settings I bet they forgot to configure those right.
That or Vista/Drivers are causing the slowdowns.