British Arresting Internet “Piggy-Backers”

[HardOCP News]

British people are finding out the hard way that, if you use someone else's wireless Internet connection without permission, you can go to jail.

The practice, which sharply divides Internet users, has been fuelled by the rapid growth of fast wireless broadband in homes and people's failure to secure their networks.

 

[KingPariah777]

Well, im doing it right now.

I live in a hicktown apartment complex, where apparently no one knows how to secure their wireless.

Right or wrong, how can anyone justify paying for internet when there are 5 unsecured networks found every time you turn your computer on?

I check my email, the weather and news. I'm not running bittorrent or anything like that.

No harm no foul. If they cared, they would learn how to secure their wireless.

 

[Aelfgeft]

This is equivalent to someone keeping a television set out in the hallway, and then getting pissed when someone takes it. This is all a pointless exercise anyway, since there is NO way to properly secure a home wireless network. Even with the proper lockdowns, they can be cracked in a matter of minutes. Hell, they've only written about 20 books on how to do it and sell them on Amazon.

Then again, this is coming from the country that believes that kitchen knives are a threat to the national interest.

 

[Cabezone]

This is equivalent to someone keeping a television set out in the hallway, and then getting pissed when someone takes it. This is all a pointless exercise anyway, since there is NO way to properly secure a home wireless network. Even with the proper lockdowns, they can be cracked in a matter of minutes. Hell, they've only written about 20 books on how to do it and sell them on Amazon.

Then again, this is coming from the country that believes that kitchen knives are a threat to the national interest.

That doesn't mean that the person who steals the TV is justified. It just mean that the guy who owns the TV is a dumbass and the person who takes the TV is a thief.

 

[Aelfgeft]

That doesn't mean that the person who steals the TV is justified. It just mean that the guy who owns the TV is a dumbass and the person who takes the TV is a thief.

All comes down to what the boundaries of theft are. If I convince my next door neighbor to sell me his E6600 setup for 50 bucks, is that theft? If people spread food on a table near a sidewalk, go inside, and people who walk by take food, is that theft?

In this world, if you don't want someone to have something of yours, keep it away from them. Either lock down your wireless network or get yourself some cat6 like the smart people do.

 

[schulzpm]

An insurance company would deny your claim if you left the TV outside (or left the doors unlocked for that matter.) I'm not saying that it doesn't make it theft, but there has to be some responsibility from the owner's side. If I put a new HDTV out on the sidewalk by my trash and the trash man takes it is that theft? I would bet he could argue 'I assumed it was left for me' and get off.

 

[KingPariah777]

I wouldn't bother with cracking someones router encryption, etc.

The cases I am talking about are where a router is simply plugged in, with "dlink" as the ssid.

It's the same as leaving a 10 dollar bill on the ground, and then accusing someone of stealing it when they pick it up...

 

[Draax]

Ricky: Stealing? You guys are beaming a singnal into this effing trailer park without my permission, not me, so i got these little things that pick up the signal from space, how the eff is that stealing? What, do you own space? No, Naysaw does.

 

[HardOCP News]

Man, some of you guys scare me. I wouldn't leave my house / car unlocked or money laying out around you guys..

That doesn't mean that the person who steals the TV is justified. It just mean that the guy who owns the TV is a dumbass and the person who takes the TV is a thief.

QFT

The only way it is NOT stealing is if you didn't know that the "cool free wireless" you've been enjoying all these months in your apartment building....belonged to someone else.

BUT...

...isn't there a matter of an actual complaint needing to be filed? I mean, if the owner doesn't care and doesn't press charges, there is no crime.

 

[FLECOM]

you know some people dont know any better...

i was helping a client troubleshoot her outlook, when i asked her what her ISP was she didnt know... so i asked her, what is your internet connection... she said "linksys" i was like "huh?" and she responded that she bought a new laptop with wireless and she turned it on and it said connected to linksys and she got internet! she thought it came with the laptop or something... i tried to explain but i kind of gave up after a bit...

but ya, never underestimate the power of stupidity

 

[Aelfgeft]

Money laying out IN your house/apartment, we wouldn't touch. Money you throw down the hallway/sidewalk or, also in parallel to wireless, INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S HOMES, what would you expect us to do?

Slicing into someone else's wired DSL/Cable connection, I can see as a crime. Taking advantage of what someone else FREELY makes available to you is not a crime. It's called the "free" box at a rummage sale.

 

[WarMace]

I still feel if you send your signal unsecured outside the bounds of your property its free game.
If I see your big screen tv from the street and you don't close the blinds, is that stealing?
If I'm walking down the street and spit a wad of gum into a trash can left on the curb, is that stealing?
If I park outside a coffee shop with free wifi and surf, is that stealing?


I like New Hampshire's approach where if failure to secure it shows you do not care about it. But cracking WEP, WPA, or even spoofing your mac address to get online is breaking the law.

 

[RandomNY]

More and more cities are going completely wireless anyway. I'm sure the Brits will turn their cities into TAX payer funded wireless hotspots evenutally, if they haven't started already... So the point is mute...

 

[WarMace]

you know some people dont know any better... never underestimate the power of stupidity

A coworker does IT work on the side and secured someones WiFi after they hired him to fix their poor signal, after he did they referred him to their neighbor who lost internet magically the same day he secured the first one. Come to find out they were connecting to each others signal.

 

[OmegaSpade79]

I lived in England in 2004 and one element missing from this discussion is culture. In Europe people leave their wireless open as a public good. The idea being they leave theirs open so anyone who needs it can use it, in the hope the next time they are away from home someone will have theirs open so they can use it. Sure it is not ssecure, but Americans are some of the most paranoid and maybe malicous people on the planet.

I now live in Orange county and it is HARD to find an open wireless connection cause everyone is paranoid about people being hacked in some way. It is also getting harder to find open connection in the Northern California bay area.

Bottom line if we just respected each others stuff there could be open Wifi everywhere.

 

[stabilep]

Firstly the main issue is the fact that there is no simple way really yet to do wireless security. Linksysy has that nice one touch setup but thats only on a few devices. Otherwise the whole process is so complicated most people don't know it exists. I don't blame people so much as I blame the router companies who aren't making an effort to make it simple to set up security. Just because they don't understand computers doesn't mean they are stupid. I don't know anything about cars other then turn them on and how to do things like go foward go back turn and a few other "necessary things" yet am I stupid because I do not know how to change out my radio or do an oil change? I don't think so. I am just not a car person. Just like people are "computer people" So I would not use that as a means to justify how people steal others utilities. Hell with verizon they were sending the modem and the router n one. If I didn't know what i was doing and followed their instructions I would have a wireless router broadcasting to my apartment complex without my knowing.

Secondly you really cannot control where you wireless signal goes you simply control who has access to it.

And finally no one steals electricity or water or cable from other people and thinks its legal. if my house has outlets on the outside of my house (which a lot do) and I don't thinkK I ever saw anyone lock that down. Same for water a lot of houses have taps on the outside which are also not locked down. And some older homes have the coaxial cable running along the outside of the house. In none of those cases would anyone think its ok to simply take that from your neighbors and it would be ok since they didn't lock it up. So if they don't lock up their internet signal then it is ok for you to steal it? I don't think it is.

 

[Ockie]

This is equivalent to someone keeping a television set out in the hallway, and then getting pissed when someone takes it. This is all a pointless exercise anyway, since there is NO way to properly secure a home wireless network. Even with the proper lockdowns, they can be cracked in a matter of minutes. Hell, they've only written about 20 books on how to do it and sell them on Amazon.

Then again, this is coming from the country that believes that kitchen knives are a threat to the national interest.

Yes, there are many ways to secure a wireless network.

And no, this is nothing like stealing tv signals. TV signals do not cost more the more tv sets you add in... whereas internet it does.

You can't take any more bandwidth off a tv signal... but you can crush the paying persons internet connection, you can also break the law by doing illegal activities on it, you can also cause numerous headaches to that person and cripple his connection that HE paid for.

And no, a well secured AP will take more than 20 mins to hack, we are not the NSA or the CIA.. it does take quite some time to hack in. And also, even if you do hack in, now you are hacking, with this logic you might just as well hack your carriers and get some free cable and internet... why not hack your bank too, increase the funds.

Ricky: Stealing? You guys are beaming a singnal into this effing trailer park without my permission, not me, so i got these little things that pick up the signal from space, how the eff is that stealing? What, do you own space? No, Naysaw does.

You have no control over the air or the signals that are broadcasted. You are aware that the millitary uses sattelites overhead of you? You do also know othat cellular companies and banks uses multiple forms of transmissons which crosses overhead you.

That gives you no right to steal it. Next time try getting a nice lock on a millitary sattelite (if you have the equipment) and see if you can get data from it... then come back and let me know if you were allowed to take whatever is accessable from your trailer.

If we have to charge or access everything that crosses our property... we would have no infrastructure today. Cingular (ATT), Verizon, Sprint, and all the various communications transmissions pollute accross my property, however, that gives me no right to steal those communications.


I'm glad they are finally arresting these criminals.

 

[Ockie]

Man, some of you guys scare me. I wouldn't leave my house / car unlocked or money laying out around you guys..



QFT

The only way it is NOT stealing is if you didn't know that the "cool free wireless" you've been enjoying all these months in your apartment building....belonged to someone else.

BUT...

...isn't there a matter of an actual complaint needing to be filed? I mean, if the owner doesn't care and doesn't press charges, there is no crime.

I don't know a single owner who would enjoy other people leeching their connection.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

I don't know a single owner who would enjoy other people leeching their connection.

I've never minded people using my connection when I've had an AP up. Why not if I'm not gaming or anything and it's not slowing me down who cares?

I would have to agree with the folks on the side of people watching DVDs but not closing their blinds. I can't help but watch my neighbors h0t pr0n! Hahaha, it's his job to close his blinds.

Securing a router isn't much more complicated than closing blinds these days.

I assume if he's sharing for free, then he's just being a good neighbor!

 

[matrix563]

I assume if he's sharing for free, then he's just being a good neighbor!

sounds like a state farm ad

i locked my wireless down.

 

[matrix563]

sounds like a state farm ad

i locked my wireless down.

i meant all state lol

 

[KingPariah777]

I lived in England in 2004 and one element missing from this discussion is culture. In Europe people leave their wireless open as a public good. The idea being they leave theirs open so anyone who needs it can use it, in the hope the next time they are away from home someone will have theirs open so they can use it. Sure it is not ssecure, but Americans are some of the most paranoid and maybe malicous people on the planet.

I now live in Orange county and it is HARD to find an open wireless connection cause everyone is paranoid about people being hacked in some way. It is also getting harder to find open connection in the Northern California bay area.

Bottom line if we just respected each others stuff there could be open Wifi everywhere.

That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

English 16 year old boys don't use bittorrent to download porn?

Enjoy not being able to check your email because some kid across the street is downloading "BrittanyspearsfuckfestChristinaAguileraAnalOrgy.jpg.wmv.exe" on bittorrent...

 

[KingPariah777]

but Americans are some of the most paranoid and maybe malicous people on the planet.

I now live in Orange county and it is HARD to find an open wireless connection cause everyone is paranoid about people being hacked in some way. It is also getting harder to find open connection in the Northern California bay area.

So you can't find an unencrypted router in Silicon Valley...wow, thats a fucking suprise.

That must mean Americans in general are malicious and paranoid. GG.

 

[Hurin]

This is the same "me me me" mentality that surrounds music downloads and warez.

If I can get it without paying for it, then it should be free.

If it's something you really want. . . well, then of course it should be free! And if it's something you can do. . . then you should do it!

If someone can put an MP3 on the web and let me download it. Then it should be legal. If someone can do the same with a game, movie, or software. . . then I should be able to download it! If someone isn't savvy enough to secure their wirless network, then I should be able to use it despite the fact that I am not paying for it and may be saturating his bandwidth with my pr0n downloads! Whatever I want, whatever is easiest for me, should be legal. . . laws to the contrary be damned.

If your neighbor sets his TV outside his door. . . and you take it. . . . you're still a filthy f'ing thief with a broken soul even if the TV owner was an idiot for trusting that it wouldn't walk away. Just because it was made easy for you doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. And if you have no concerns about doing the right right thing. . . but instead just do whatever you want. . . then, again. . . you're broken.

Stealing is stealing. No matter how you try to gloss it up or mitigate it with "facts" about how easy it was for you to do the stealing. Just because it's easy to aquire something (via downloading, etc.) doesn't mean that it's value-less and therefore doesn't represent an actual theft.

Sheesh. . . our current generation is utterly broken.

Me, me, me.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

This is the same "me me me" mentality that surrounds music downloads and warez.

If I can get it without paying for it, then it should be free.

If it's something you really want. . . well, then of course it should be free! And if it's something you can do. . . then you should do it!

If someone can put an MP3 on the web and let me download it. Then it should be legal. If someone can do the same with a game, movie, or software. . . then I should be able to download it! If someone isn't savvy enough to secure their wirless network, then I should be able to use it despite the fact that I am not paying for it and may be saturating his bandwidth with my pr0n downloads! Whatever I want, whatever is easiest for me, should be legal. . . laws to the contrary be damned.

If your neighbor sets his TV outside his door. . . and you take it. . . . you're still a filthy f'ing thief with a broken soul even if the TV owner was an idiot for trusting that it wouldn't walk away. Just because it was made easy for you doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. And if you have no concerns about doing the right right thing. . . but instead just do whatever you want. . . then, again. . . you're broken.

Stealing is stealing. No matter how you try to gloss it up or mitigate it with "facts" about how easy it was for you to do the stealing. Just because it's easy to aquire something (via downloading, etc.) doesn't mean that it's value-less and therefore doesn't represent an actual theft.

Sheesh. . . our current generation is utterly broken.

Me, me, me.

Boooooring.

It's not like stealing the TV that's on the doorstep, it's like pulling up a lawn chair in the middle of the street and watching turning it on and watching it.

Your neighbor made the offer, why are you so bad for accepting it?

 

[MagnusDredd]

Taking someone's TV is stealing. Taking money that does not belong to you is stealing. In both of these cases, you are denying someone of their property. In either case the money or the TV is no longer accessible to the owner.

In the case of using an unlocked Wireless Access Point (WAP), it's not stealing. The owner still has access to their WAP, and can choose to "share" or not. It's that simple. It's certainly not stealing when you use open WAPs in the airport, it's not when you're using one that belongs to the corner coffee shop, so how is this different?

The point is that in saner days in the USA, it was determined to be completely legal if someone listens to radio signals that are beamed onto their property. This is really no different. If someone uses a default password, guesses the password, or breaks in using some form of crack, then a crime may have been committed. Otherwise, hello 1984.

I mean, God forbid, that someone would want to share!

 

[Teknikallysekure]

This is the same "me me me" mentality that surrounds music downloads and warez.

If I can get it without paying for it, then it should be free.

If it's something you really want. . . well, then of course it should be free! And if it's something you can do. . . then you should do it!

If someone can put an MP3 on the web and let me download it. Then it should be legal. If someone can do the same with a game, movie, or software. . . then I should be able to download it! If someone isn't savvy enough to secure their wirless network, then I should be able to use it despite the fact that I am not paying for it and may be saturating his bandwidth with my pr0n downloads! Whatever I want, whatever is easiest for me, should be legal. . . laws to the contrary be damned.

If your neighbor sets his TV outside his door. . . and you take it. . . . you're still a filthy f'ing thief with a broken soul even if the TV owner was an idiot for trusting that it wouldn't walk away. Just because it was made easy for you doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. And if you have no concerns about doing the right right thing. . . but instead just do whatever you want. . . then, again. . . you're broken.

Stealing is stealing. No matter how you try to gloss it up or mitigate it with "facts" about how easy it was for you to do the stealing. Just because it's easy to aquire something (via downloading, etc.) doesn't mean that it's value-less and therefore doesn't represent an actual theft.

Sheesh. . . our current generation is utterly broken.

Me, me, me.

4 points for the Broken Soul term as well. * bravo.

 

[Draax]

Isn't stealing still defined as taking something from someone, without asking their permission? When you "share" an open connection aren't you taking bandwidth without asking?

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

 

[Ockie]

Taking someone's TV is stealing. Taking money that does not belong to you is stealing. In both of these cases, you are denying someone of their property. In either case the money or the TV is no longer accessible to the owner.

In the case of using an unlocked Wireless Access Point (WAP), it's not stealing. The owner still has access to their WAP, and can choose to "share" or not. It's that simple. It's certainly not stealing when you use open WAPs in the airport, it's not when you're using one that belongs to the corner coffee shop, so how is this different?

The point is that in saner days in the USA, it was determined to be completely legal if someone listens to radio signals that are beamed onto their property. This is really no different. If someone uses a default password, guesses the password, or breaks in using some form of crack, then a crime may have been committed. Otherwise, hello 1984.

I mean, God forbid, that someone would want to share!

You don't think taking bandwidth and total throughput is stealing?

You do know people get banned from cable companies for going over a certian quota?


Also, if this isn't stealing, neither is "borrowing" electricity or water from a house.... heck, even a gas tank... as long as they still have some left, it's the same thing right?

 

[sovs]

the guy caught was a fool.

he accepted a caution - had he not accepted it - it would never go to court & he would be a free (no record) man.

What would you do if a guy was helping himself to water from a tap (faucet) outside your house? call the police? we are talking fractions of pennies here....

 

[Ockie]

the guy caught was a fool.

he accepted a caution - had he not accepted it - it would never go to court & he would be a free (no record) man.

What would you do if a guy was helping himself to water from a tap (faucet) outside your house? call the police? we are talking fractions of pennies here....

Your analogy is a little off. Using a tap of water would indicate it's a single drink.

Why not adjust your analogy to say...

What would you do if a guy was helping himself to a tap (faucet) outside your house to water his garden and supply his home?


Lets face it, people piggy backing are not quickly making a "quick stop", they are usually hanging around.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

You don't think taking bandwidth and total throughput is stealing?

You do know people get banned from cable companies for going over a certian quota?


Also, if this isn't stealing, neither is "borrowing" electricity or water from a house.... heck, even a gas tank... as long as they still have some left, it's the same thing right?

I swear man everytime one of you guys jumps up and uses these arguments you sound like a crotchety old man that doesn't want any kids to have any cookies.

:|

Electricity costs xx/kwH

Bandwidth for my Cable connection on the other hand unless I use INSANE amounts is basically unlimited, and costs me no extra for using more.

On top of that, if I needed to game or use my bandwidth for a data transfer, I'd stop sharing it with my neighbors.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

Your analogy is a little off. Using a tap of water would indicate it's a single drink.

Why not adjust your analogy to say...

What would you do if a guy was helping himself to a tap (faucet) outside your house to water his garden and supply his home?


Lets face it, people piggy backing are not quickly making a "quick stop", they are usually hanging around.

If my water hose extended to the sidewalk, and I paid 40 bucks a month regardless and someone was thirsty why would I stop them from drinking?

I don't care, long as they GET OFF MA LAWN!

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

Well, im doing it right now.

I live in a hicktown apartment complex, where apparently no one knows how to secure their wireless.

Wait.. hick town with WiFi laden homes? Contradict much?

Right or wrong, how can anyone justify paying for internet when there are 5 unsecured networks found every time you turn your computer on?

I bet their power outlets (since you are in an apartment complex, you probably share common walls) are easily accessible, as well as the run from their cable tv. Why don't you jump on them, too.

I check my email, the weather and news. I'm not running bittorrent or anything like that.

But, your honor, I only drove drunk because I had to get to work! Bandwidth theft is bandwidth theft, despite what you use it for.

No harm no foul. If they cared, they would learn how to secure their wireless.

Ignorance does not indicate acceptance.

 

[CyberDeus-RagDoll]

I swear man everytime one of you guys jumps up and uses these arguments you sound like a crotchety old man that doesn't want any kids to have any cookies.

:|

Electricity costs xx/kwH

Bandwidth for my Cable connection on the other hand unless I use INSANE amounts is basically unlimited, and costs me no extra for using more.

On top of that, if I needed to game or use my bandwidth for a data transfer, I'd stop sharing it with my neighbors.

You don't realize that in some countries, bandwidth is metered, and is not "all you can eat"
You are one of the spoiled americans that doesn't know about what things happen in other countries.

 

[sovs]

what next? that satellite is in my airspace?

 

[MagnusDredd]

Isn't stealing still defined as taking something from someone, without asking their permission? When you "share" an open connection aren't you taking bandwidth without asking?

So according to you the fact that I have a Wireless Access Point in my house, and it has no password, that I'm some kind of asshole, because I don't care if my neighbors use it to check their email?

I paid for the damned connection, if I want to share it with my neighbors I'll fscking do it. The "cap" is like 60GB per month, and I have the wireless bandwidth limited to 10k/sec per MAC (Max Throughput of 843.75MB/day). If someone wanted to install multiple wireless NICs and use link aggregation somehow, then they're a badass and more power to them.

If I did not want to share my connection, I'd use a password.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

You don't realize that in some countries, bandwidth is metered, and is not "all you can eat"
You are one of the spoiled americans that doesn't know about what things happen in other countries.

Hahahaha, nice a spoiled American I am! Actually to be honest none of my relatives live in the United States, they all live in either Germany or Australia or Russia or Norway.

I've never talked to the Australian parents about their cable bill, but I'm pretty sure it's the same as mine, you pay for upload and download speed NOT amount of data used per month.

I know for a fact the Germans have the same system. In fact I work in networking, and pretty much every ISP I know of SELLS their services in blocks of UP/traffic Down/Traffic....

so you sir can take your holier than thou elitist anti American attitude and SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS!



Why would I give a fuck about the rules in countries I've no necessity to adhere to? As far as SPOILED AMERICANS not knowing what goes on in other countries, well are we arguing about this foreign news on a US website or what?

 

[Teknikallysekure]

For the record, HEATRHOW has free Wifi last time I was there... and what those bastards charge for a pint I'm glad.



Hahaha.

That is all.

 

[Teknikallysekure]

I meant Heathrow, apologies edit is off.