Can you tell TN from S-IPS?

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chklin

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
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There has been numerous questions about how much difference panel technology makes in normal daily use. Questions like:

"Does viewing angle matter if I always sit in front of the monitor?"
"Are colors really that bad in a wide-gamut monitor?"
"Are TN panels really the as crappy as people claim?"

Of course, different people have different answers. To further confuse everyone, I decide to host a small fun game. You see, I have two monitors, and they differ in almost all imaginable manner:

One is S-IPS, the other is TN
One is wide gamut, the other is standard gamut
One is glossy, the other is matte

These differences, as you can see, make them ideal targets for a blind test. Here is the deal:

  1. Both monitors have the same white point and gamma (6500K / 2.2, calibrated with Huey and Argyll CMS)
  2. Both monitors have the same white level (I adjusted monitor controls until I get the same Huey reading)
  3. The image display program is not color-managed
  4. All images come from InterfaceLIFT
  5. Photos taken in a complete dark room
  6. Camera set to manual exposure and white balance
  7. No post processing other than cropping, scaling, and aspect corrections
I tried to control as many variables as I can, but I am afraid this is still nowhere close to a controlled scientific experiment. On the other hand, if the discriminating readers on this forum cannot easily tell the differences through these photos, chances are that most people would not notice any difference in normal use either.

And of course, I shuffled the images before creating this montage:

Update: I added one more column (right-most) which is the original image. Thanks to HarkovAdm for pointing out that this piece of information is missing. Consistent color difference between the monitor images and the original reference has to do with the white balance of the camera, which does not allow any fine tuning.

montage-1.jpg


Please look at the images and try to answer the following questions using your gut feelings (I consider analyzing the images too much, especially with software, cheating):

  1. Which ones are from the S-IPS monitor?
  2. Which ones are from the wide-gamut monitor?
Just answer with a series of L/R letters (for example, LRRLLLRR). Have fun!

Code: 
Tally: IPS monitor images

LRLLLRRL (alg7_munif)
RLLLRLRL (brumwald)
RLLRRLRL (sayu)
LRRLLRRL (BigwaveDave)
LRRLLRRL (ToastyX)
LRRLLRRL (alexyang)
LRRLLRRL (nomu)
LRRLLRRL (MirageMobile)
LRRLLRRL (Monkeypillow)
LRLLRRRL (visionviper)
LRRLLRRL (Uberbob102000)
 
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How can make judgments on postage sized stamp images? 400 pixels wide and we are supposed to judge image quality?:D

No offense but I didn't need your photos, I own a TN and and H-IPS monitor and there is no comparison on any point. H-IPS is superior. The viewing angle for the TN is just too narrow. Even the slight movement of moving your heard slightly is enough to shift the colors.
 
chklin said:
There has been numerous questions about how much difference panel technology makes in normal daily use. Questions like:

"Does viewing angle matter if I always sit in front of the monitor?"
"Are colors really that bad in a wide-gamut monitor?"
"Are TN panels really the as crappy as people claim?"

Of course, different people have different answers. To further confuse everyone, I decide to host a small fun game. You see, I have two monitors, and they differ in almost all imaginable manner:

One is S-IPS, the other is TN
One is wide gamut, the other is standard gamut
One is glossy, the other is matte

These differences, as you can see, make them ideal targets for a blind test. Here is the deal:

  1. Both monitors have the same white point and gamma (6500K / 2.2, calibrated with Huey and Argyll CMS)
  2. Both monitors have the same white level (I adjusted monitor controls until I get the same Huey reading)
  3. The image display program is not color-managed
  4. All images come from InterfaceLIFT
  5. Photos taken in a complete dark room
  6. Camera set to manual exposure and white balance
  7. No post processing other than cropping, scaling, and aspect corrections
I tried to control as many variables as I can, but I am afraid this is still nowhere close to a controlled scientific experiment. On the other hand, if the discriminating readers on this forum cannot easily tell the differences through these photos, chances are that most people would not notice any difference in normal use either.

  1. Which ones are from the S-IPS monitor?
  2. Which ones are from the wide-gamut monitor?
Just answer with a series of L/R letters (for example, LRRLLLRRR). Have fun!
Click to expand...

To comment on the questions:
"Does viewing angle matter if I always sit in front of the monitor?"
Yes it does.
My first experience with an S-IPS I got distracted by the poor viewing-angles when watching dark movies. And this was when sitting alone, watching a movie in front of the monitor.
I need not to mention gamma-shift on *VA panels that drive some people nuts?
And of course TN is not an exception of this, I often wonder at what angle I should position myself in to experience TN displays most.
TN gets bonus points for being able to alter the "brightness" of the monitor just with tilting your head a litle :D

"Are colors really that bad in a wide-gamut monitor?"
Yes.
When you have a reference it really can be utterly bad (and even without a reference it just feels wrong). I often drag windows to my secondary display, which isn't wide-gamut, so that I can get an idea of how it really looks.
That said, some images can be hard to distinguish.

"Are TN panels really the as crappy as people claim?"
Depends on what you are using it for.

I don't think there is much debate over theese issues. They all exist. Whether you notice them, care about them or is annoyed by them is a completely different matter and no thread is going to answer that question. You have to try them out for yourself.

The images you provided are really small, I dont expect to come out right at all but I did a fast try just for fun. Here I denote which monitor is S-IPS, it also follows that the S-IPS is wide-gamut.
RLLLRLRL
I have very litle experience judging the image quality from glossy, so I could be completely wrong as well.
It would be more interesting (imho) if the monitors wasn't so different.
S-IPS vs TN where *nothing* but the panel differs.
Glossy vs. matte where *nothing* but the coating differs.
Wide gamut vs. sRGB where *nothing* but the color-space differs.

Although to be honest, I don't give much for this kind of comparison at all.

Given the circumstances I don't think it's possible to distinguish the panel in this case (without analyzing the pictures). So I'd say that this has nothing at all to do with TN or S-IPS but rather wide-gamut and glossy. And I'm not aware of any TN wide-gamut displays.
 
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Hard to tell from the small images and I don't claim to be very sensitive to all things audio and visual, so this is just a guess for fun. I do see noticeable difference between most of the pictures, but I don't own an IPS monitor nor do I own a wide-gamut monitor so I don't know their effects.

RLLRRLRL <-- IPS monitor pictures I'm guessing
 
I hate TN's....I can tell on most of those for sure even though the pics are small.

L-R-R-L-L-R-R-L are IPS. (I'm an MVA panel owner myself)
 
This is coming from someone who has tried all the different types panels to include IPS, MVA/PVA and TN panels. Over the past couple of years I have bought only IPS type panels because some of the TN type displays I bought years ago were terrible viewed at any angle and the PQ and color so bad they were unadjustable. I have used all of these not only with the larger home monitors but also notebook displays.Yes I used to own the older IBM T-43P notebook with the IPS display. Also the Fujitsu with the MVA display and the Apple MacBook Pro 15.4 and 17 inch which has terrible color even for a TN panel. Now after experimenting with some of the newer notebook displays (which only come in TN) and some of the newer home monitors with TN panels I am finding that they really have improved quite a bit and this also includes viewing angles. WIth some of the TN panels the colors would polarize at all angles and now I am finding this is not the case anymore. Now if you get a descent TN notebook computer or TN home monitor you will find that they dont do this when looking from the sides anymore.............only when looking from top to bottom...........or bottom to top. So this is how I would answer your questions from what I have learned recently.

"Does viewing angle matter if I always sit in front of the monitor?"
Depends on the type of panel and the quality on whether you will see a color shift sitting right in front.

Are colors really that bad in a wide-gamut monitor?"
The colors are not bad just oversaturated and hard to adjust. The ATI control panel saturation control helps overcome this problem.

"Are TN panels really the as crappy as people claim?"
It depends on which TN panel you buy which sometimes takes trial and error. There are actually some very nice ones now produced but it can sometimes take time and patience to get the right one. As an example I went through 4 different Dell 17" notebook computers last year before I finally found one with a decent display (RGB LED) and although some were of the same model they were using different panel manufacturers. SOme of the displays depending on which manufacturer were terrible. The PQ and colors were unadjustable and inaccurate. This is the same with the larger home monitors. It just depends on the panel used. I have a HP w2558hc (glossy TN) next to a Planar PX2611 (matte IPS) right now it and the TN panel compares real well to the IPS panel.

I dont think you can give an educated answer on your pictures. A lot would depend on which display you are using to look at them........
 
This test is flawed. You can't even tell which is glossy and which is matte by those pictures. Does that mean most people can't tell the difference between glossy and matte?

You also didn't mention how far away the pictures were taken. Viewing angles are much more apparent from a normal viewing distance than from several feet away.

But if you want to play this game, all your TN pictures show red discoloration at the top and a lighter bottom.

IPS: LRRLLRRL
 
ToastyX said:
But if you want to play this game, all your TN pictures show red discoloration at the top and a lighter bottom.

IPS: LRRLLRRL
Click to expand...

Yea I noticed this right away on my CRT. We have a Samsung 22" TN panel here as well and its OK but cant compete with IPS, TN viewing angles alone drive me nuts.
 
"Does viewing angle matter if I always sit in front of the monitor?"

I have seen this question many times and it makes no sense at all. When you sit right in front of the monitor your eyes are not looking streight at each pixel. You look streight at the pixels in the middle of the screen, but the edges of the screen are seen at an angle. The geometry is something like this \|/. When you move your head the angles change for every pixel on the screen. This is why both gamma shift and viewing angles matter no matter where you sit.

Trying to use pictures for comparison is a bad idea, because Humans see in stereo and cameras see in mono and cameras have other issues as well.

I have never seen a TN panel I liked and could work with. They are good for gamers on a budget and that is about it.

Dave
 
Still, If you're sitting directly in front, the difference between the angles is at minimum (it can't be any better; taking the screen as a whole). So that's the benchmark. If you're looking at the screen in any other way, you can only get 'worse' results.
 
Already been said but....

Of course if you take pictures of bright, contrasty and color rich desktops they will all look good, but that only tells a little bit of the story. Color shifts, poor viewing angles, uneven illumination, backlight bleed are things that make TN panels look poor in many circumstances - none of which you've shown above.

If you care at all about even color reproduction across the screen, viewing angles, panel uniformity and backlight bleed, then IPS and PVA panels are infinitely superior to TN panels. I'm not an expert on it, but just put them next to each other and look at them under a variety of situations and you'll see the difference.
 
Thank you for all the replies!

Luthorcrow said:
How can make judgments on postage sized stamp images? 400 pixels wide and we are supposed to judge image quality?:D
Click to expand...
Hey, we are not trying to catch bad pixels here :D Most common complaints about TN panels are H/V color and gamma shifts, both of which should remain visible even in small images.

brumwald said:
It would be more interesting (imho) if the monitors wasn't so different.
S-IPS vs TN where *nothing* but the panel differs.
Glossy vs. matte where *nothing* but the coating differs.
Wide gamut vs. sRGB where *nothing* but the color-space differs.
Although to be honest, I don't give much for this kind of comparison at all.
Click to expand...
Oh I wish I have that many monitors. But if the wife finds out... *shudder* And I don't give much for this kind of comparison either. This is mostly just for fun and to generate discussions -- I have no intention to prove anything.

brumwald said:
And I'm not aware of any TN wide-gamut displays.
Click to expand...
Some googling uncovers at least a few TN monitors with 92% NTSC gamut, which is wide (but not crazy wide).

ToastyX said:
This test is flawed. You can't even tell which is glossy and which is matte by those pictures. Does that mean most people can't tell the difference between glossy and matte?
Click to expand...
I am sure the test is flawed... Hey, I was just screwing around. But I personally do have problems telling glossy from matte when they are displaying full-screen images in a dark room.

ToastyX said:
You also didn't mention how far away the pictures were taken. Viewing angles are much more apparent from a normal viewing distance than from several feet away.
Click to expand...
My bad. The TN monitor is in 24" wide format (16:10), and pictures are taken from about 5' away, which is admittedly farther than normal viewing distance.

PaulE said:
Of course if you take pictures of bright, contrasty and color rich desktops they will all look good, but that only tells a little bit of the story. Color shifts, poor viewing angles, uneven illumination, backlight bleed are things that make TN panels look poor in many circumstances - none of which you've shown above.
Click to expand...
First, uneven illumination and backlight bleed happens to monitors with all panel types. Second, my impression is that people here recommend IPS monitors for people "working with photos and images". There would be no point in spending extra if pictures do look good on TN monitors, right? And besides, who cares about a little color shift on your giant Excel spreadsheet?
 
Viewing angles most certainly do matter. Just play a dark FPS like STALKER on a TN, look at a body on the ground while the camera is centered, then pan the camera down to loot the body and watch the darkness fall. Still images are no big deal on TN or VA compared to IPS, it's when images move in and out of the gamma shifted zones while you track them with your eyes, that you notice the effects.
 
Watch The Dark Knight on a TN panel, the most obvious image artifacts ocurrs in the scene where the Joker blows up the hospital. Filmed from above, the cloud of black smoke are simply a jumbled collection of black and dark gray pixelated squares. This was on an Asus VK246H monitor I purchased in Dec 2008 as an auxilliary monitor.

I do not see these artifacts on my Planar PX191 (S-PVA), nor do I see it on my NEC LCD2690WUXi.

Note: The Asus' TN panel uses temporal dithering rather than spatial dithering.
 
daveswantek said:
Trying to use pictures for comparison is a bad idea, because Humans see in stereo and cameras see in mono and cameras have other issues as well.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Looking at a TN with both eyes is very different than looking at it through the single aperture of a camera.

I get a weird false 3d effect from TNs.
 
Snowdog made the same point about a year ago. Images look fine on TNs, as long as you ignore brightness gradients and whatnot. If you really are working with images then your criteria isn't just whether they "look good", but a lot of people here buy VA/IPS monitors for non-professional use anyway.

If you want a good picture to show the difference between wide gamut and sRGB, check out Vista's mountains wallpaper. Though it seems like you might be using a mac, so you can find it here. Having that on a 92% NTSC screen side by side with an sRGB screen convinced me to go sRGB from here on out.

To humor you: LRRLLRRL, (and judging from the last two pictures, the IPS is wide(r) gamut.)
 
LRRLLRRL

Thanks for the test. I found it fun.

I have only used TN panels (current being dell 207wfp), but caught on to a consistant lighter image near the bottom one of each set, which helped me guess it might be the TN.
 
LRRLLRRL is what looks better to me. Not sure about wide gamut, since I have absolutely no idea what it is o how it works.

Well, that was fun.
 
vick1000 said:
Viewing angles most certainly do matter. Just play a dark FPS like STALKER on a TN, look at a body on the ground while the camera is centered, then pan the camera down to loot the body and watch the darkness fall. Still images are no big deal on TN or VA compared to IPS, it's when images move in and out of the gamma shifted zones while you track them with your eyes, that you notice the effects.
Click to expand...

Could you explain this further?
 
It's tough to know which picture is which considering that I don't know what an original, perfect image would look like. For instance there are definite color differences in the first photo. Is the sky actually blue or is there more of a thunderstorm coming? If the sky was more clear when the photo was taken, then the one on the left is the ips :D
 
thx for posting the originals. Although the colors are off it does display the viewing angle issue more clearly
 
nomu said:
If you want a good picture to show the difference between wide gamut and sRGB, check out Vista's mountains wallpaper. ... Having that on a 92% NTSC screen side by side with an sRGB screen convinced me to go sRGB from here on out.
Click to expand...
This one is just for you (right-most is the reference image):

montage-2.jpg
 
I want to change my answer to LRLLLRRL since now I know how the original picture looks like.
 
I am have been questioning the value in judging a monitors quality, from a jpeg photo in another monitor lately.
 
This test is flawed in many, MANY ways. I can tell immediately in person (I have 2 TN monitors and 1 S-IPS and 1 CRT) but I'm looking at a jpeg, at the size of a thumbnail, on a different monitor.

Ah fuck it, I'll do it anyways haha
LRRLLRRL
 
chklin said:
This one is just for you (right-most is the reference image):

montage-2.jpg
Click to expand...

It's FUBARed by the red tint, but you can see some of what I mean in the reflection at the bottom. On a wide gamut screen, the mountains take on a more burned color from the gold/brown on an sRGB screen, while the shadowed area is affected much less. The illuminated area to the right of the pale slope also looks a little blown out on a wide gamut screen.
 
nomu said:
It's FUBARed by the red tint, but you can see some of what I mean in the reflection at the bottom. On a wide gamut screen, the mountains take on a more burned color from the gold/brown on an sRGB screen, while the shadowed area is affected much less. The illuminated area to the right of the pale slope also looks a little blown out on a wide gamut screen.
Click to expand...

Well if you used the ATI control panel to adjust it there wouldnt be this condition:D
 
wide gamut is great if you know how it works...

Explorer.exe doesn't do color correction on your desktop so of course things will look off. Try opening it in Photo Viewer and compare it to your desktop. Assuming the picture has a color profile, the Photo Viewer version will look as intended.
 
I hope every have had fun! The two monitors I have are:

Dell 2005FPW: S-IPS, standard gamut, matte
HP W2408H: TN, wide gamut (92% NTSC), glossy

And it turns out that the majority is right: the S-IPS images are LRRLLRRL+R (the last one is for the mountain wallpaper). I have to say that I am very impressed with the crowd here.

If there is enough interest, I might write a little about how the photos correspond to my subjective experience with the two monitors. Of course I am also happy to answer questions.
 
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