Cars With External Airbags

supaspoon said:
Be careful to note that I said "in part" what an airbag is designed to do. You're 1/2 right. Yes it is meant to stop you from face planting the steering column. But it also serves to decelerate your head, which is good when your seat belt is decelerating your body. It's good to keep your head & body in the same relative place. :rolleyes:

This also relates to your comment about "sort of helps douches that don't wear their seat belt". Quite the contrary. the Airbag will decelerate your head while your torso tries to keep going = opposite effect w/ similar results. Not wearing your seat belt increases the chance that you will be directly seriously injured by the airbag itself.
Click to expand...

Seatbelt doesn't decelerate your body. Hence why it locks when there's a rapid movement on it. If that doesn't happen, odds are high, it's not a heavy enough impact for the airbag to deploy.

Because of how bad seatbelts are, you get that deceleration effect. None of which would occur with a good harness. If it did lock you into place, then it's possible that the airbag wouldn't be needed. I'm going with the airbag would still be needed, because of how the seatbelt holds you down. Waist and one shoulder. Not great.

If you don't like the idea of airbags in your car, nobody's trying to convince you otherwise. But the idea that road going vehicles, outside of very rare circumstances, are safer without them is just retarded.
Click to expand...

They would be safer if you had a better seatbelt system or harness and not need airbags. No head protection needed, cept in extremely violent crashes, but not like a seatbelt/airbag would help in those cases anyways.
 
"NEW FROM TOYOTA!!! First your wife could get them, and now your car can too! Thats right... breast implants for your car!"
 
undertheradar said:
"NEW FROM TOYOTA!!! First your wife could get them, and now your car can too! Thats right... breast implants for your car!"
Click to expand...

614970113a17f2f55.jpg
 
krotch said:
Seatbelt doesn't decelerate your body. Hence why it locks when there's a rapid movement on it. If that doesn't happen, odds are high, it's not a heavy enough impact for the airbag to deploy.
Click to expand...

/facepalm

1. Seatbelt attaches your body to the seat.
2. Seat is attached to car.
3. Car comes to a sudden stop during a crash, this is called deceleration. Since your body is attached to the seat via. the seat belt, your body shares this deceleration.

So tell me. What part specifically of a 5 point harness is it that attaches your head to the seat? The seat belt takes care of your torso, but something is still going to cause your head to decelerate.

You can pick 1 of 3 options:

1. Your neck. May cause injury
2. Steering wheel in your face. Will cause injury
3. Airbag in your face. May cause injury, that is likely far less serious than the previous.

And to note, on my lunch break I went a had a look at the airbag warning in my car. And guess what. Along with 'death or serious injury' it explains how you go about doing this.

1. Placing children in the front seat (they're very short)
2. Sitting too close to the steering wheel.
3. Not wearing your seat belt.

Gee, that sounds like a good summary of just about every point I made. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry dude, but you're talking out of your ass.

Even still, as Okie was trying to point out. Everything you and I are arguing about is pretty much irrelevant. There's a reason that road cars don't have roll cages and 5 point harnesses. Design professionals from nearly any industry will tell you that you can not make considerations in absolute. There's a large number of things to consider in a design, and you almost always have to compromise the effectiveness of one for another. Part of being a good designer is achieving the right balance in those decisions for the best overall final result. In layman terms, people are not going to rush the car lots to get their hands on the new 5-point harness vehicle.
 
Well, its simply this... a 5-point harness in every car would be awesome, but having such an involved method of 'strapping one's self in' would mean many people simply wouldnt do it. Also, whiplash is still possible (which is why there are also helmet restraints in many race cars so the head doesnt get tossed back and forth in a crash). Not to mention, in the event of a crash, a person needs to be able to get out quickly many times (or taken out quickly). Racers have crews and medics on hand to help get them out quickly, but common passengers must rely on the response of ambulances/police/fire rescue to get them out many times... so having a 5-point harness could result in you being pinned in your car after a crash (since you have that much more that can get stuck which needs to operate).

Nothing worty debating here, I think we all know.

But I think we should all talk about how now our cars can sport some cleavage on demand... Just imagine... "My mazda miata was looking a little flat so I got hood implants to make it look more 'filled out'... now everyone thinks Im driving around a sexy Dodge Viper!!!"
 
supaspoon said:
/facepalm

1. Seatbelt attaches your body to the seat.
2. Seat is attached to car.
3. Car comes to a sudden stop during a crash, this is called deceleration. Since your body is attached to the seat via. the seat belt, your body shares this deceleration.

So tell me. What part specifically of a 5 point harness is it that attaches your head to the seat? The seat belt takes care of your torso, but something is still going to cause your head to decelerate.

You can pick 1 of 3 options:

1. Your neck. May cause injury
2. Steering wheel in your face. Will cause injury
3. Airbag in your face. May cause injury, that is likely far less serious than the previous.
Click to expand...

With a harness, you get the good old whiplash. Not deadly, just hurts. About the same kind of thing happens if you have an airbag anyways. Add in maybe a broken nose or whatever else your head happens to slam into.


Even still, as Okie was trying to point out. Everything you and I are arguing about is pretty much irrelevant. There's a reason that road cars don't have roll cages and 5 point harnesses. Design professionals from nearly any industry will tell you that you can not make considerations in absolute. There's a large number of things to consider in a design, and you almost always have to compromise the effectiveness of one for another. Part of being a good designer is achieving the right balance in those decisions for the best overall final result. In layman terms, people are not going to rush the car lots to get their hands on the new 5-point harness vehicle.
Click to expand...

Of course not. Safety is hardly a consideration for many Americans in purchasing a vehicle. Sometimes not a consideration at all.
 
undertheradar said:
Well, its simply this... a 5-point harness in every car would be awesome, but having such an involved method of 'strapping one's self in' would mean many people simply wouldnt do it. Also, whiplash is still possible (which is why there are also helmet restraints in many race cars so the head doesnt get tossed back and forth in a crash). Not to mention, in the event of a crash, a person needs to be able to get out quickly many times (or taken out quickly). Racers have crews and medics on hand to help get them out quickly, but common passengers must rely on the response of ambulances/police/fire rescue to get them out many times... so having a 5-point harness could result in you being pinned in your car after a crash (since you have that much more that can get stuck which needs to operate).

Nothing worty debating here, I think we all know.

But I think we should all talk about how now our cars can sport some cleavage on demand... Just imagine... "My mazda miata was looking a little flat so I got hood implants to make it look more 'filled out'... now everyone thinks Im driving around a sexy Dodge Viper!!!"
Click to expand...

I find a harness is a lot easier to take off then a regular seatbelt. But all harnesses should come out fairly easily, as they are designed for racers. Do you seriously think their crew or medics can get to them in time for the multitude of different kinds of racing around the world?

Races like the Paris Dakar Rally, Super Touring, WRC, etc. Where the recovery crews will take a while to get to you and pretty much every time, the driver has already gotten out of their vehicle and been walking around.

They also have to get these harnesses off while sitting in a racing suit, wearing racing gloves, and having a helmet on. Sometimes add in that HANS device. If they can do it, then I'd assume an average person could too.
 
Reminds me of the Stallone movie where the cop car crashed and filled with the foam material. Sounds like where we are heading LOL.
 
ir0nw0lf said:
Reminds me of the Stallone movie where the cop car crashed and filled with the foam material. Sounds like where we are heading LOL.
Click to expand...

I believe you are referring to Demolition Man. Also, it seems like it would be a good idea besides the fact that you could easily suffocate encased in foam. :cool:
 
I'm curious to know at what speed to a stop would kill a person. As in, their internal organs compressing inside your body as it hits the other crap inside your body.

I'm just making assumptions, but I'm sure the cannolis system in the Demolition Man movie would help you survive. Not sure about the whole suffocation though. Maybe a way to insta-fill the interior with packing peanuts.
 
krotch said:
I'm curious to know at what speed to a stop would kill a person. As in, their internal organs compressing inside your body as it hits the other crap inside your body.
Click to expand...

It's an interesting thought, I've no idea though. Though I've spent several years riding & racing (on closed circuit of course) sportbikes & have seen some friends survive some pretty crazy stuff. Typically of course there's a pretty severe impact associated with an abrupt stop, which has more to do with the injuries than the stop itself. Which i think is why that's a difficult question to answer. But I'm sure someone studying weird stuff like this has some numbers somewhere. Reminds me of an experiment they did at an AFB near here with a monkey on a rocket sled. The monkey didn't survive the acceleration (was disemboweled by the sheer force of speed :eek:), but I'm not sure off hand what the numbers were.

krotch said:
I'm just making assumptions, but I'm sure the cannolis system in the Demolition Man movie would help you survive. Not sure about the whole suffocation though. Maybe a way to insta-fill the interior with packing peanuts.
Click to expand...

Heh, it's certainly a funny visual if nothing else.
 
You just reminded me about John Stapp. He did a lot of tests on rocket sleds with deceleration. Should look that stuff up.

So far, the safety harnesses seem to cause the most injuries. But even so, a human can survive a 38g deceleration. Wonder if they went back to the drawing board to see if a human can survive more than that.
 
krotch said:
You just reminded me about John Stapp. He did a lot of tests on rocket sleds with deceleration. Should look that stuff up.

So far, the safety harnesses seem to cause the most injuries. But even so, a human can survive a 38g deceleration. Wonder if they went back to the drawing board to see if a human can survive more than that.
Click to expand...

Hmm... I think he pretty much found the limit. He went blind temporarily from those tests. I guess the eyeballs are the most sensitive to such extreme conditions.
 
Well, he went temporarily blind, but I think a human could survive more. Problem with pushing further, you might actually kill someone, if not cause some kind of handicap. Like permanent blindness.
 
supaspoon said:
/facepalm

1. Seatbelt attaches your body to the seat.
2. Seat is attached to car.
3. Car comes to a sudden stop during a crash, this is called deceleration. Since your body is attached to the seat via. the seat belt, your body shares this deceleration.

So tell me. What part specifically of a 5 point harness is it that attaches your head to the seat? The seat belt takes care of your torso, but something is still going to cause your head to decelerate.

You can pick 1 of 3 options:

1. Your neck. May cause injury
2. Steering wheel in your face. Will cause injury
3. Airbag in your face. May cause injury, that is likely far less serious than the previous.

And to note, on my lunch break I went a had a look at the airbag warning in my car. And guess what. Along with 'death or serious injury' it explains how you go about doing this.

1. Placing children in the front seat (they're very short)
2. Sitting too close to the steering wheel.
3. Not wearing your seat belt.

Gee, that sounds like a good summary of just about every point I made. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry dude, but you're talking out of your ass.

Even still, as Okie was trying to point out. Everything you and I are arguing about is pretty much irrelevant. There's a reason that road cars don't have roll cages and 5 point harnesses. Design professionals from nearly any industry will tell you that you can not make considerations in absolute. There's a large number of things to consider in a design, and you almost always have to compromise the effectiveness of one for another. Part of being a good designer is achieving the right balance in those decisions for the best overall final result. In layman terms, people are not going to rush the car lots to get their hands on the new 5-point harness vehicle.
Click to expand...

That's is why I always wear a HANS device while driving.
 
It's sad that all this is required to sell a fricking car anymore.

Sigh. a least I can still take my doors and top off on my 4 door yellow Rubi Jeep Wrangler.

They say they may have to change that because of new safety regulations!
 
krotch said:
I'm curious to know at what speed to a stop would kill a person. As in, their internal organs compressing inside your body as it hits the other crap inside your body.

I'm just making assumptions, but I'm sure the cannolis system in the Demolition Man movie would help you survive. Not sure about the whole suffocation though. Maybe a way to insta-fill the interior with packing peanuts.
Click to expand...

This is called Delta V's. Everyone is different and I believe someone gave the Engineer response of about 38g. However, in speed terms, around 45mph will usually cause delta v's. In a quick explanation of this, if you hit a brick wall at 45mph and your vehicle goes from 45mph to 0 in a split second, regardless of how much safety you have in your car, your organs are moving at 45mph into your ribs and other bones causing injury and usually killing you.

As far as seatbelts, they do slowly stretch when the lock up. This helps reduce the Delta V's. Along with the Airbag Delta V's are substantially reduced. This is why you can survive lower speed crashes.
 
alg7_munif said:
That's is why I always wear a HANS device while driving.
Click to expand...

Lol. Reminds me of a story.
<offtopic>Old riding buddy of mine had an early 70's lincoln town car. Brand new vette pulls up next to us at the light. He grabs my motorcycle helmet from the back set, puts it on, rev's the shitty 'ol v8 and dogs the guy in the vette. The guy tried to ignore us but eventually looked & cracked up pretty good.</offtopic>

ReconSniper said:
In a quick explanation of this, if you hit a brick wall at 45mph and your vehicle goes from 45mph to 0 in a split second, regardless of how much safety you have in your car, your organs are moving at 45mph into your ribs and other bones causing injury and usually killing you.
Click to expand...

That's a good point. Have to consider how fast you go from no G's to a lot of G's, making the difference between stuff just pushing vs. having an "impact". Kinda have to think about it a second, but it makes sense.
 
ReconSniper said:
This is called Delta V's. Everyone is different and I believe someone gave the Engineer response of about 38g. However, in speed terms, around 45mph will usually cause delta v's. In a quick explanation of this, if you hit a brick wall at 45mph and your vehicle goes from 45mph to 0 in a split second, regardless of how much safety you have in your car, your organs are moving at 45mph into your ribs and other bones causing injury and usually killing you.

As far as seatbelts, they do slowly stretch when the lock up. This helps reduce the Delta V's. Along with the Airbag Delta V's are substantially reduced. This is why you can survive lower speed crashes.
Click to expand...

Well, no one's tested it. If you're in a car and hit a brick wall, the car and the wall will absorb most of the impact.

If it's just a person being flung at a brick wall, it's the impact into the wall that's gonna kill you. Not your organs hitting your bones or other organs.

Anyways, delta-v doesn't do much for helping to ascertain how much the body can take. Course I wouldn't have a clue on how to test something like this anyways. To be able to accelerate someone then instantly deccelerate someone to a standstill, with no restraints. Cause I'm sure the restraints would crush a person in such a situation.
 
krotch said:
Well, no one's tested it. If you're in a car and hit a brick wall, the car and the wall will absorb most of the impact.

If it's just a person being flung at a brick wall, it's the impact into the wall that's gonna kill you. Not your organs hitting your bones or other organs.

Anyways, delta-v doesn't do much for helping to ascertain how much the body can take. Course I wouldn't have a clue on how to test something like this anyways. To be able to accelerate someone then instantly deccelerate someone to a standstill, with no restraints. Cause I'm sure the restraints would crush a person in such a situation.
Click to expand...

You are correct, vehicles and objects they hit absorb all of the speed. However, the statistical average is around 45mph for your body not to be able to withstand the impact to a dead stop. Think about this, a Ford Taurus has about 4-5 feet between the front of the vehicle and where you sit. Now, lets say nothing came in contact with your body other than a seatbelt when you hit a wall that does not give at all. If the vehicle is going 45mph, you have just decelerated your body from 45-0 in 4-5 feet. The Aorta will separate, at ~38g. Im not a engineer, like I stated before, but I would bet, since the average speed is 45mph for fatal crashes in this way, that 45-0 in 4-5 feet is over 38G's. Now, something more interesting than that is that if you have had surgery at or around the Aorta, the stitching a surgeon uses to sew you up is stronger than the original tissue, and therefore allows you to sustain more G's.

Back to the original topic though, anything over 30mph the pedestrian usually strikes higher on the windshield, at 45 mph its usually the top of the windshield and at around 60+ you will vault the vehicle striking the trunk or not at all. This is of course on a frontal crash and not a sideswipe or clip.
 
Problem with such studies, they tend to not mean crap.

"The positive and negative predictive values were 16% and 100%"

The hell does that mean? We rolled the dice to figure out what can cause thoracic aortic tear? The rest of it seems to just be guess work too.

If it could tear so easily, I'm sure a hell of a lot of ppl would be tearing them in these accidents.
 
Why don't they just add reactive armor, like tanks have! Sure, you'd have to beef up the suspension, but my paint job would be safe. :D
 
Cause they wouldn't work out to well for a car wreck. Great for helping defend against a tank round.
 
Ockie said:
The lack of a full roll cages in cars is also an attribute to convenience.
Click to expand...

The lack of full roll cages in cars is more related to safety rather than convenience. Chrom-moly or any other sort of steel used for building roll cages is not exactly a pleasant thing to smack into without a helmet and roll bar padding. Now, if helmets to be worn during all driving were mandated it would be a totally different story.
 
A good roll cage will be using titanium and locations of it's bars are along the frame of the car. So even without the roll cage, you'd smack into the frame of the car. Only ppl who'd have to worry with a cheap rollcage is the location of the bars behind the driver/passenger bucket seats. If you could even put passengers in the back seat at all.

Now if it were a roll cage in convertible, there's not much else to hit cept the roll cage. But for something like that, I'd want that roll cage.

A roll cage isn't the only way to help reinforce a car's rigidness. You can seam weld the body and throw in some strut tower bars. But not sure how much safer it'd be over having crumple zones. Would also increase cost.

Roll cage padding is also pointless when you're strapped into a racing seat with a 4+ point harness. You're not going to be hitting the roll cage, let alone anything else in the car. Unless the accident is bad enough to cause deformities in the car that cause the objects to come hit you instead.
 
krotch said:
A roll cage isn't the only way to help reinforce a car's rigidness. You can seam weld the body and throw in some strut tower bars. But not sure how much safer it'd be over having crumple zones. Would also increase cost.
Click to expand...

That's not what you want, anyway. Crumple zones exist because you don't want the full amount of force in a crash transferred directly into your body, you want the car to disperse as much of the force as possible. Making the car more rigid would be much more dangerous than having crumple zones.
 
MavericK96 said:
That's not what you want, anyway. Crumple zones exist because you don't want the full amount of force in a crash transferred directly into your body, you want the car to disperse as much of the force as possible. Making the car more rigid would be much more dangerous than having crumple zones.
Click to expand...

Qft. Ever seen what happens to something when it gets hit by a forklift? Not pretty, especially considering the very low speeds. Lot's of mass + no give = splat.
 
Yep, more dangerous. Hence why race drivers end up surviving some of the most crazy crashes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnoM4qi8OlM

In high speeds, everything crumples into your lap. That's why a race car's roll cage extends into the engine bay and trunk.

http://www.afkrotch.com/Travel Pics...(Germany)(14 Aug 08 - 17 Aug 08)/DSC00163.JPG

Picture I snapped from the Rallye Deutschland 2008. The cars also have to be road legal.

http://www.afkrotch.com/Travel Pics...(Germany)(14 Aug 08 - 17 Aug 08)/DSC00157.JPG

The seats with built-in head protection. With the driver strapped in, the odds are low their head will bounce on any of the car in a crash.
 
krotch said:
Yep, more dangerous. Hence why race drivers end up surviving some of the most crazy crashes.
Click to expand...

I think what you don't understand is that the collisions in a race are going to be much different than in a city street scenario. Typically, in a race the cars are all moving in the same direction, albeit fast, and there aren't really any seriously sharp turns. They may bump each other and spin out, or smash up against the wall on the side, but generally there aren't going to be any head-on or even T-bone type collisions in a race. Roll cages are specifically made for what they sound like: the potential of the car rolling over. It exists to prevent the car from landing on the roof and crushing the person inside. On city streets, or even the freeway, the likelihood of a car doing A BARREL ROLL in any sort of way is extremely low.

A roll cage is not going to help you in a car-on-car collision in a city street setting.
 
supaspoon said:
Qft. Ever seen what happens to something when it gets hit by a forklift? Not pretty, especially considering the very low speeds. Lot's of mass + no give = splat.
Click to expand...

If it's going low speed and the car doesn't give, then where's the splat? That'd mean that the inside doesn't give and anyone inside isn't crushed.
 
supaspoon said:
Not wearing your seat belt is a good way to break your neck via. airbag. They're designed to work in conjunction with your seatbelt. It's not made for protecting douches.
Click to expand...

So your basically calling people that don't wear their seatbelts douches?
 
Whatever happened to letting evolution run its course. Too stupid too live and didn't... film at 11. :cool:

We already have an airbag for hitting pedestrians.... its called:

INSURANCE :eek::rolleyes::p

For a pedestrian airbag, I was thinking of something a bit BIGGER... like it puffs out to make you a giant beachball.

I was thinking more in terms of a Skier's avalanche protection.... POOF! you are in the middle of a 6ft sphere of air.

But you could use it when:

You fall OUT of a car..... POOF... boing..boing..boing..splat.

You fall OUT of an Airplane.... POOF... boing......boing......boing....boing..boing.splat.

You are 100 ft under water and need to get to the surface fast... POOF... woooooosh...POP as your veins esplode.

You are hit in the crosswalk... POOF... boing....boing...boing..boing.phew... THUMP THUMP as the car behind the one that hit you runs over your ass in the middle of the road :D
 
krotch said:
If it's going low speed and the car doesn't give, then where's the splat? That'd mean that the inside doesn't give and anyone inside isn't crushed.
Click to expand...

I think he means the forklift doesn't give.
 
Well if the car gives, then doesn't matter if the vehicle has crumple zones or not. You're gonna get crushed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top