Caught the audio bug - what should I get next to improve my system?

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scrawnypaleguy

Limp Gawd
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Apr 11, 2006
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I just got a new set of Swan M10 speakers and I absolutely love them. Only thing is, now that I've heard how good my music can sound, I want to know what can make it even better. My setup is as basic as it comes right now: I'm just running the M10s off my motherboard's built-in sound. It sounds great, but I know it can be better as I've often heard about how inferior onboard sound is.

So my question is, what should be my next purchase to make my setup even better? A discrete sound card? An external DAC? Any advice or input would be appreciated.
 
Get better speakers.

Modern onboard isn't THAT bad, and it won't hold back the M10's too much.
 
J Macker said:
QFT. The M10's are seriously lacking and just a half step above logitech's entry level.
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i disagree. i have logitechs and the m10 for a couple years now and the latter blow the former away completely in terms of detail, clarity, imaging, etc. - no contest. for the price of $100, the m10 is a nice little 2.1 set for listening to music on the pc and an excellent value. sure it doesn't have a real sub - more of a mid-woofer, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have solid bass - considering it's diminutive size (which saves space) and the cost of the set. i would take these over any multimedia 2.1 pc setup at the $100 price range any day of the week. of course, one can always spend more to get more as well, but that turns into another topic altogether.

as to the op, depends on what you want to accomplish and how much you want to spend. considering your purchase, you seem to be value-oriented. i really wouldn't spend a whole lot on expensive ext dacs or sound cards to make the most of the m10. you can definitely improve sound quality over onboard though, so i would recommend this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132020

for $30 bucks ($20 after mail in rebate), you will get a nice boost in sound quality, imo. that should hold you over for now until you decide to upgrade to bigger and better things down the road if you want.
 
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A sound card, any sound card, is going to sound better than onboard audio, and maybe that should be your first step.
For much better (maybe even the best, $ for $) powered (no amp req.) desktop speakers, check out Audioengine. The A2's rock at about $200, the A5's are true audiophile quality at around $350. linky links:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/lifestyle-desktop-and-portable/a2-desktop-speakers
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/lifestyle-desktop-and-portable/audioengine-a5
 
Also, if you are really getting into it, google DIY subwoofers. You can arguably (though I'm pretty convinced) build a better sub than you can buy. There are plans, kits, and amps all over the web. If that goes well, you can also build very good speakers from kits, some including pre-cut MDF for the box, for a fraction of the cost of high-end models with comparable sound quality. If you have access to a table saw (or a circular saw/straightedge/steady hand) and a router (or even just a router/table in a pinch) you can save a lot more building your own MDF boxes. DIY is definitely [H]. More linky links:
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/projectindex.cfm
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/
http://www.zalytron.com/
 
While I normally say that the source is the worst value in upgrading; from stock it can make a decent difference. I'm happy with my NuForce uDAC; their current uDAC 2 is said to be even better:
http://estore.nuforce.com/products/NuForce-Icon-uDAC2.html

It's an excellent USB DAC (sound card - but stereo only) with a line-out, and a headphone amp as well. In fact, it's a really good headphone amp; it can run just about any headphones under $500 or so quite well. You'll basically be set with your source until you've spent hundreds and hundreds on speakers, headphones and amps; and it's portable too.

After that I'd spend money on better speakers (or headphones); individual components if possible. It's much easier to mix and match component systems - you can swap the speakers or the amp as you like.
 
Thanks for the advice guys! Having just gotten these new speakers last week, I'm definitely not getting new ones any time soon (barring some horrible accident). Thanks for the links, especially for that external DAC. I like the look of that because it gives me a headphone jack that I can put in a more usable place since the one on my case is in a bit of an awkward position.
 
A sound card/DAC will always be the worst value upgrade, because the deviation from the original waveform it produces is negligible compared to endpoint (speakers, headphones). The only exception is EMI or power problems in computers with video cards causing severe interference, in which case you'd want something external.

The uDAC is pretty much a scam. It's hardly better than onboard; and measurements of the device will also back up that claim. It should however let you turn up the volume with some insensitive headphones - mainly stuff like Sennheiser that is rated as db/mv rather than db/mw. 105 db/v is closer to 90db/mw and that is incredibly insensitive for headphones.
I wouldn't upgrade from onboard unless you are buying a device with clean measurements like Xonar Essence (externals with comparable measurements will cost far, far more - thankfully sound cards are cheaper because they're somewhat commoditized while DACs are niche and rare), and only if you have an endpoint worth over $500.
 
Dalamar said:
A sound card/DAC will always be the worst value upgrade, because the deviation from the original waveform it produces is negligible compared to endpoint (speakers, headphones). The only exception is EMI or power problems in computers with video cards causing severe interference, in which case you'd want something external.

The uDAC is pretty much a scam. It's hardly better than onboard; and measurements of the device will also back up that claim. It should however let you turn up the volume with some insensitive headphones - mainly stuff like Sennheiser that is rated as db/mv rather than db/mw. 105 db/v is closer to 90db/mw and that is incredibly insensitive for headphones.
I wouldn't upgrade from onboard unless you are buying a device with clean measurements like Xonar Essence (externals with comparable measurements will cost far, far more - thankfully sound cards are cheaper because they're somewhat commoditized while DACs are niche and rare), and only if you have an endpoint worth over $500.
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A scam? Hardly better than onboard? Well then... Tell me what motherboard/laptop you use so I can go get one!

A Xonar Essence over the uDAC? They're not even competing products! Tell me how to cram one into my ThinkPad (without interference) and I'll be happy to oblige... But I don't care about multichannel...

Internal sound cards are often (but not always) plagued by RFI, noise, and in the case of most onboard and cheaper ones, the inability to convert 44.1 kHz sampling rate music (i.e. CDs) to analog without re-sampling to 48 kHz. Laptops can't even push out a proper 2 V line level signal (this is probably the biggest problem of all), and lack the current capability to drive anything but earbuds satisfactorily.

If you go by RMAA measurements, yes, the Essence STX is superior (assuming you place it in a location within the case that has no audible RFI - not necessarily a given. But both of them exceed human hearing, hardware, and source limits by a good margin - there is no evidence whatsoever indicating that we can hear the difference between hundredths of a percent of THD, IMD, nearly a hundred decibels of crosstalk, or small fractions of a decibel in either frequency response or channel imbalance.

Yes, the uDAC is known to have problems with channel imbalance with IEMs, but that's the amp. Also, the Asus has higher dynamic range - the uDAC doesn't even hit the total dynamic range of 16 bit audio (by a small amount). But again, does it matter? No, not at all. Recordings don't even come close to the 92 dB dynamic range of the uDAC 2 - the best orchestral recordings have about 60 dB at most, and most typical pop/rock has on the order of 12 dB (or even less - I've heard reports of 3 dB dynamic range recordings).

You can read an explanation here, in the first post:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/415361/24bit-vs-16bit-the-myth-exploded



It should however let you turn up the volume with some insensitive headphones - mainly stuff like Sennheiser that is rated as db/mv rather than db/mw. 105 db/v is closer to 90db/mw and that is incredibly insensitive for headphones.
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What?!? At the very least, you're ignoring the effect of impedance (or resistance in DC) on the relationship between power and voltage.

Let's go with 103 dB @ 1 V, since it's the stated sensitivity of the Sennheiser HD 650 headphones. They're 300 ohms nominal. That works out to 97.77 dB @ 1 mW, actually, using basic V=IR, P=VI, and calculating the change in decibels from change in power [Change in power = 10 * log(new power level/old power level)].

Now, lets say you're using 32 ohm headphones with the same sensitivity of 103 dB @ 1 V. Since they're much lower impedance, they need a heck of a lot more current to run at the same voltage. The conversion puts them at 88.05 dB @ 1 mW. As expected by the ten fold decrease in impedance (with the same voltage sensitivity), they require ten times as much current to reach the same volume level (i.e. same voltage).

For the layman, what does this mean? Well, assuming equal (and low) sensitivity ratings in dB @ 1 mW: For high impedance headphones, you need a high voltage source. For low impedance headphones, you need a high current source. Unfortunately, sound cards and onboard audio provide neither of these. High impedance low sensitivity headphones will be voltage limited in volume, and low impedance low sensitivity headphones will be current limited - causing clipping of peaks (very bad distortion).

That's a simplification of the effects, but you get the idea. The uDAC is capable of running most headphones, but it does have trouble with the most demanding ones - low efficiency headphones - whether in need of high current like the Hifiman planar magnetic designs, or high voltages like the Sennheiser HD 800 or Beyerdynamic T1. It can successfully run them at lower levels, however - and just about any other headphones are fine.




My honest opinion is that beyond upgrading from onboard audio or the worst sources (poor DVD players, mp3 players, etc.) which definitely have performance issues, there's little to no audible difference in any DACs that are sufficiently flat in frequency response. Same goes for amplifiers capable of supplying enough power (which is not a given). There's no valid evidence to support that further upgrades actually provide an audible difference (again, with level matching and flat frequency responses) - in fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary in the form of blind testing for dac/amp/cable differences.

Oh, and yeah - my speakers (Infinity Renaissance 90 and Kappa 8) and headphones (Sennheiser HD 600; with AKG K701, Senn HD 800, Beyer HT 880, and Beyer T1 tested as well) aren't going to be hiding any glaring audible flaws in the DACs and amps that I use. Just in case anyone had any questions concerning that.
 
Speakers. Period. Yes, the M10s beat Logitechs... but they're still crap.

Don't touch a uDAC (totally unnecessary), and don't even get a sound card unless you're hearing noise from your onboard audio.
 
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