Chaintech AV710 (or any Via Envy based soundchip) thoughts and warning....

Creative has done a good job of stifling competition by simply buying them out and then sitting on their tech. They bought out their last major competitor, Aureal, and evidently haven't used much, or any of their IP.

They also don't bother to fix known problems, such as bass management or resampling. Also, if you think that tech is going forward for sound cards, name another gaming card that provides full sound acceleration. Creative totally owns that market.
 
BO(V)BZ said:
Creative has done a good job of stifling competition by simply buying them out and then sitting on their tech. They bought out their last major competitor, Aureal, and evidently haven't used much, or any of their IP.

They also don't bother to fix known problems, such as bass management or resampling. Also, if you think that tech is going forward for sound cards, name another gaming card that provides full sound acceleration. Creative totally owns that market.
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http://www.hometheatermag.com/bootcamp/101/index1.html


If you were ever curious as to why a source unit would offer bass management and not leave that duty to the processor, the answer is simple: In the vast majority of cases, the 5.1-channel inputs on a receiver or pre/pro bypass the unit's internal processing, equalization, and crossovers—which, of course, means the processor's bass management is bypassed. Naturally, if you're using the 5.1-channel analog inputs, the receiver or pre/pro knows that the signals have already been processed in the source unit; all it needs to do is pass them along untouched. There are a few receivers and pre/pros that will let you use bass management with the 5.1 inputs, but most will not.

With that said, my Bass Management works just fine thank you very much. It's only connected to an older Pioneer VSX-D711 (DDD DTS, SACD, DVD-A compat), look up the specs if you like? Its BM is bypassed when the Analog Inputs are used. I set mine to about 132Hz and that leaves plenty of Bass for my Front and Back speakers. In fact, it helps the Advent 1008 on the rear channel.

So let's see, nVidia hired some of Aureal's staff, Intel went it's own way, VIA bought out Envy but it's Creative who's holding up progress? Ummmmmmmmm? If Azealia is improved to Intel's standard, then who'd be holding the market by the you know what then? Other companies had the same chance to buy up Aureal and Sensura, Intel had the chance and they didn't. AMD bought up Alchemy instead. That's the way business works, you win some, you loose some. Intel and nVidia holds a far larger threat to disrete sound cards than Creative BTW!

Donnie
 
So this card actually gives lower FPS than onboard sound? I have a Compaq with Realtek onboard and I ordered this card because of subtle hisses and bad sound in music, how can a dedicated sound card actually lower your framerate?
 
Thanks, just checking. It's weird that all the review places will test every variation of graphics card to get the one with a few FPS advantage, but it's difficult to find a sound card review from most of them. Are there any places that have some sort of Sound-Card-Shootout or the like?
 
Counter-Strike: Source Beta audio performance explored

Mad Dog Multimedia's Entertainer 7.1 sound card - The Tech Report - Page 6: Gaming

The Tech Report - M-Audio's Revolution 7.1 sound card - Page 5: 3DMark 2001, Quake3, Serious Sam 2

In summary: If you are playing games that are not signifigantly influenced by proc speed, then you will have no ill effects from a non-Creative audio solution.

New cutting-edge games like Doom 3, HL 2, and Far Cry are not in that category. However, your video card is still the biggest single factor on gaming performance. If you care solely about FPS, spending your money on a Creative card is much less fruitful than putting it towards a better video card. Of course, FPS is not the only determinant of gaming enjoyment, is it?
 
sohcugy said:
So this card actually gives lower FPS than onboard sound? I have a Compaq with Realtek onboard and I ordered this card because of subtle hisses and bad sound in music, how can a dedicated sound card actually lower your framerate?
Click to expand...

http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound/120/6

The Audigy 2 ZS does better with Directional cues, it also reproduces games sounds better or more realistic. It does other little neat tricks like making sound seem to come from you, not just some where within the Game. Yes, in any game using almost any kind of 3D sound, the sound card processes faster than have a busy processor doing it.

Donnie
 
ScYcS said:
Why they stickied it, I don't know. However, I *DO* know why i posted this. I posted it because i had expectations that the card wouldn't fullfill. Especially after reading exactly those raving reviews from headfi that you just mentioned. I read them and did not see anyone poundering on the bad drivers (abysmal) or the lack of mic in high performance mode or the sub-par 3d sound in games (compared to EAX on the Audigy2 or even a Philips Acoustic Edge, a card i had several years ago). People should know this before they buy the card. I just can't see myself enabling 2 soundcards in my computer that will eventually cause conflicts all over the place just to have mic AND good sound at the same time. No sir! What a ridiculous idea. I shouldn't have to.

Oh, while i read about the Audigy2 drivers.....yeah, 300MB if you install all the useless crap with it. Media player? Not for me. Demos? Don't need them. All the other crap? nono.
I simply installed the DRIVERS....not even close to 300MB. Not even close to 100MB. Less than your average porn movie from the internet actually. How big is your harddrive? 1GB? 6GB? 80GB? Have your actually thought about that these drivers take what? 0.1% of your harddrive space? Whoopdie. And those drivers *gasp* actually have options that are useful.

And, btw, i also mentioned that the AV-710 IS indeed a good card for music listening lovers. For gamers, it's not the first choice imho. People who complain about the Audigy drivers will be in for a bad surprise when they install the AV-710 drivers...
Click to expand...
You misunderstood. Its not the size that counts. Its that their drivers are not the greatest either. Never have been.
The software on the CD is abysmal, you are better off to just go get the latest drivers from their site and do a pure install.

Or better yet, use the kxproject drivers (emu10k1/10k2).. it takes away some of its "gaming qualities" but I prefer it on a Audigy1 to the Creative drivers, much cleaner and crisper sound. I have not directly compared the positioning, but I think that when most ppl try them they will switch just from the clarity.
Audigy2ZS drivers seem to be a bit better, as if you put them on a Audigy1 you get MUCH better sound.

Is that the kind of company you want to deal with? One that holds their products back in software? I'd invite every noob who doesnt know this to try this if they own an Audigy1.
Otherwise, the same results (and better IMO) can be gotten by simply using kxproject.

Would that be acceptable for ATI or Nvidia? Its not done, BECAUSE THEY HAVE COMPETITION, and they are decent companies compared to creative.



When most people refer to Creatives drivers, they are referring to the quality of them.. not the horrid, bloated software they package with those cards.

CPU usage is a moot point. Is getting that 1% CPU utilization back going to turn your "gaming" rig into a playable one? Doubt it.
In this day and age, CPUs are cheap.. and plentiful. Buy a A64.
When I buy a sound card, I'd suggest increasing SOUND QUALITY foremost, CPU utilization should be on the end of the list.

As has been said, if you are processor limited and need to free it up.. you'll get your sound CPU utilization back and more by simply going to a faster processor.. much better and more economic way of freeing up your processor.
 
lilpoopypants:
WOOT you have finally done it!
You actually managed to post a reply that 5 people will not send me complaints about. :)
 
Mister X said:
lilpoopypants:
WOOT you have finally done it!
You actually managed to post a reply that 5 people will not send me complaints about. :)
Click to expand...

Most must have figured why bother? The post is so full of halftruths, misinformation, flame bait-a-rama that nothing good could come from it.

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1027075623&postcount=14

He did this on another thread without links!

Donnie
 
Donnie27 said:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/bootcamp/101/index1.html


With that said, my Bass Management works just fine thank you very much.
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If you mean by working, that I have to reconfigure my bass output levels every time I change between movies/music and games, then I spose that it does. In two-channel mode, I get nice 105dB peaks in HL2 when I hit something with a rocket. Playing in 5.1, bass is almost an afterthought. I don't want to play with the gain on my sub every single time I decide to fire up Far Cry.

Maybe this isn't an issue for you, but it is for at least me.
 
BO(V)BZ said:
If you mean by working, that I have to reconfigure my bass output levels every time I change between movies/music and games, then I spose that it does. In two-channel mode, I get nice 105dB peaks in HL2 when I hit something with a rocket. Playing in 5.1, bass is almost an afterthought. I don't want to play with the gain on my sub every single time I decide to fire up Far Cry.

Maybe this isn't an issue for you, but it is for at least me.
Click to expand...

Are you using 5.1 or 2/2.1? Bassmanagement has no affect on 2 channel but Bass Boost does. You don't need any kind of Bass Boost, unless you're into Gangsta-RAP :) I might need do some checking though. All sound cards have to be reset when fully switching speaker setting. In the old days you had to restart the computer. Most games will ask you to restart the game if you change settings.

My settings stay set=P Examples. I have NOTHING set in the EAX control panel for games, DVD or recording. My movie settings kicks in when I start Power DVD 6 Delux just if a Game Started up. Music Match and even WinAMP, when I used it, would kick in their own volume levels and other settings. My drivers must be working uh?

ISACT or etc. can't work if its not installed. Too many folks have problems because they don't fully install the card. Then they blame Creative Labs after taking bad advice from folks on forums.

Donnie
 
Donnie:

What I had been doing originally was using the digital out to my receiver for playing using 2.1. Doing this netted me some great bass when called for. Didn't bother trying analog 2.0 and using the receiver to lowpass the bass, no sense in doing another A-D-A conversion. Now that I got one of my two centers set up in front, I'm using 5.1 analog into my receiver. I don't have the option of re-digitizing the 7.1 inputs to use its bass management, so I'm stuck with fooling with my sub's gain, or the trim settings of the receiver.

See how us folks with receivers can run into trouble, and call their drivers castrated? There's no reason for me a adjust things like that every time, and this has been the status quo for years.
 
BO(V)BZ said:
Donnie:

What I had been doing originally was using the digital out to my receiver for playing using 2.1. Doing this netted me some great bass when called for. Didn't bother trying analog 2.0 and using the receiver to lowpass the bass, no sense in doing another A-D-A conversion. Now that I got one of my two centers set up in front, I'm using 5.1 analog into my receiver. I don't have the option of re-digitizing the 7.1 inputs to use its bass management, so I'm stuck with fooling with my sub's gain, or the trim settings of the receiver.

See how us folks with receivers can run into trouble, and call their drivers castrated? There's no reason for me a adjust things like that every time, and this has been the status quo for years.
Click to expand...

Do you have the Sub Center connected to the 2nd or 3 output jack? The discrete Sub output is on the 3rd output Jack, the 2nd is a filtered LFE like connecting a Dual Voice Coil Sub between the two front mains for example.

If you want true Sub and even rear Center, you need that 3 pin/4 segement Video Cable I linked to and MisterX linked to. Then you'd see BASSManagement in action. You could also bypass your receiver and send the signal straight to the SUB. Of course this doesn't work with Digital out.

With Analog computer speakers like the 680, the NEW GigaWorks G500, the very sweet Newer Logitech 5500's you don't suffer any of these complex settings. Yes, I like my receiver better as well though. I get very good Bass performance from my SUB as any volume. The Pioneer Seems to work with the sound card instead of against it.

Donnie
 
Donnie27 said:
Do you have the Sub Center connected to the 2nd or 3 output jack? ...

With Analog computer speakers like the 680, the NEW GigaWorks G500, the very sweet Newer Logitech 5500's you don't suffer any of these complex settings.
Click to expand...

No offense, but those things are like a friggin' joke in comparison to what he already has. He has a system that costs 6x what the rest of his computer did. I'm also pretty sure he knows where his sub channel is located.
 
GodsMadClown said:
No offense, but those things are like a friggin' joke in comparison to what he already has. He has a system that costs 6x what the rest of his computer did. I'm also pretty sure he knows where his sub channel is located.
Click to expand...

No offense taken. I just posted my experiences=P The friggen joke is take what I post out of context when it comes to BassManagement. Mine Works. I honestly don't care if the system costs 10x as much. Please go back and read the link about Bassmanagement?

I moved a 400W Cerwin Vega Sub out of my computer Room because I got too much too much Bass. The friggen walls shook too much. The magnetic field could be seen on monitor LOL! That's crazy! I love Music and I would love to continue to hear it and to enjoy it even more.

Donnie
 
Oh BTW, newer sound cards will be built to interface with Receivers, just as Receivers are being shipped that are net workable and etc......

Donnie
 
I'd just like to pipe up and leave my experience over the past few days.

I just recently picked up an AV710 for 35$CDN off anoter forum and managed to squeak by installing them the other day. I currently have an AKG271s and self built ppa with a gain of 6 (I think) on my desk.

Main reason for buying the av710... the fanatical reviews off head-fi and the fact that its 35$.

Now, when I first installed it, it was hell. CS 1.6 and Ventrilo sound playing back in slow mo, depending on the encoding of the video file, different play back output, mic input not recognized in ventrilo, and in general a big headache. After tearing my hair out and going crazy, I decided to poke around and get SP2. Especially since I"ve been not bothering, and well.. why the hell not. Well while poking around, I looked int he optional components section to try and find directx9.0c and found a set of "Envy 24 Family Audio Controller WDM" fron November 2004. Lo and behold, after installing that, things work fine. No more slow mo, same sound being outputted from spk out and spk 7&8, mic working (it errored out at first, but after goign in to setup and changing settings, it hasn't bothered me since), and all this, with high quality mode enabled.

Anywho, the moral of the story, give what I did a shot. (and also uninstall or disable the onboard sound... altho I doubt you need to as dual soundcard is no problem, but for the hell of it, it's dissabled on my system) Also, take into account the general concensous spit about at head-fi. If you're gaming, or are going to, get an audigy 2 or whatever, have dual sound cards, and just listen to your music throught the av710.

Btw, I followed the installation guide here . good luck and have fun :X Oh, and note, if you switch the jumpers on the AV710, you definetly need an amp. Same should be with the high out put. albiet when I had speakers connected to line out and high res output, max volume on everything, including the ppa was barely enough.
 
Yeah? I'll install them on my work computer tomorrow. Did they fix the volume bug yet? That's all I care about.
 
Talonz said:
I really hope you realize that the AV-710 is an unamped card and will have trouble driving headphones (even fairly efficient ones like the PC-150). The Audigy has an amplifier built in, which is why it sounds better.

If you're going to use the AV-710 with any headphones aside from stock, you will need a dedicated amplifier.
Click to expand...

So, doesn't this make the av-710 a bad buy, as the creative card is $75, the chaintech is $40, and any DECENT amp is more than $35?
 
If you already have a good amp and a good pair of cans, then all you need is a good line level source. This card can provide that good source for a minimum of cost.
 
GodsMadClown said:
Yeah? I'll install them on my work computer tomorrow. Did they fix the volume bug yet? That's all I care about.
Click to expand...

Did they fix that problem or?
 
Laforge said:
So, doesn't this make the av-710 a bad buy, as the creative card is $75, the chaintech is $40, and any DECENT amp is more than $35?
Click to expand...

Of course not, just a fair warning. I should have the AV-710 in my hands by next week to stand by my Audigy :)
 
FYI: I quit reading this thread at the end of page 2....so I am uninformed as to what was said past that...


BUT

I just wanted to say, that I bought the AV-710 to use in my FreeBSD workstation, mainly because it had an optical output so I could get dolby digital to my z680's :D

when using six channel direct and actually using the soundcard to process my audio, I really must say that I have no complaints.
The windows drivers seem like they really screw up the card.I am using the latest OSS drivers and mixer and, minus lacking effects (which I don't use anyways), the card performs very well when switched to use the wolfson DAC. My previous sound card in this workstation was a creative soundblaster something or other that didn't sound too great....and this card was a huge improvement for me.

I don't mean to come in here and be a naysayer, shit I haven't even used the card on windows....but I wanted to point out that it is a great card when you arent using windows and the windows drivers. so if anybody is looking for a great quality card at low price, and that is compatible with linux/*BSD, I highly recommend this card.
 
Do you have time to write or point to a HOWTO on getting the Wolfsen working under Linux or FreeBSD?
 
I have plans to, but I think I am going to wait until I can bring my website back up....but if you shoot me a PM to remind me, I will let you know when its up
 
Quadruple Blind? Is that when you blindfold both the test taker and the test administrator, along with using the ABX Comparator, or is it just when you stab out their eyes?
 
hamm3rhead said:
Quadruple-blind listening testing with lab rats?
Click to expand...

You're doubting him?

The amped AV-710 is a HUGE step up from the Audigy 2 (with or without external amp).

The difference is more then when I upgraded my old ESS sound card with my Audigy2. Much better instrumental seperation, detailed attack and decay, more transparent, and a lower noise floor. It's an improvement across the board (not quite as warm or smooth though, but that's only because the Audigy mangles the sound signature).
 
Just installed my newly purchased AV-710 from newegg. ViaArena driver "Envy24_Family_Drivers_V442a" installed. Everything running just fine. Windows and Via control panel are in my systray. The Via uses about 4k memory. I hope i installed everything correctly:


vol7oo.jpg
 
GodsMadClown said:
You should use the high-sample rate option. It is really the reason for buying the card.
Click to expand...

Alright. Thanks.

Hm, after also increasing resampler rate on foobar to 96k, I still can't hear any sound. My headphones are connected directly to out port of my av-710. Am I missing a step? Thanks.
 
Thought I might as well ask here.

I have a revo 7.1 and am wondering if the Via drivers would be a better driver then the M-Audio ones (seeing that they haven't been updated in a while).
 
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