Dell 2408 WFP Review

[albovin]

Some thoughts..

- The rainbow effect on the Dell is strong and it's not "splitting hair" to remark that. Contrary to what the article says, I saw it immediately and not after "deliberately looking for it", I think I'm actually the person who posted this info here first (at least I never read about it before).
The bright green wide gamut color of the ghosting makes it especially obvious and annoying.
The LG L245WP has the same effect but the color there is light orange/blue which is much less objectionable.

- Color shift and problems with dark colors as seen on current displays is NOT an inherent property of VA and people should stop acting as if it was. I wanted to sell my old Samsung 213T but now I am thinking about keeping it because in spite of being PVA it does not have the problem at all. If somebody wants a 1600x1200 21" screen and doesn't need overdrive (40 ms black to white!), this screen can be bought used for very cheap prices.

- The sRGB mode is useless (completely undersaturated) so the screen doesn't work properly for applications not supporting color management (=all except a few graphics editing and viewing programs).
It's a miracle to me why this screen does not support a simple digital color space conversion, the same kind of conversion color managed programs can do.

So all in all, I sent the 2408 back because it can do a little bit of everything but nothing right. Office: rainbows, sharpness problem, extremely oversaturated colors - Games: lag (and xbitlabs' article about it is pseudo-scientific babble, not an experts' opinion) - Photo editing: lack of >8 bits wide internal processing

I have to say I'm astounded about what people put up with nowadays. If it wasn't for the missing overdrive circuit and 8 bit processing, the old 213T would still beat anything under €2000 except maybe for the unavailable NEC 2490.

The rainbow effect on the Dell is strong and it's not "splitting hair" to remark that...
The LG L245WP has the same effect...

If we look for "effects" we'll always find them even if they do not exist.

Color shift and problems with dark colors as seen on current displays is NOT an inherent property of VA and people should stop acting as if it was.

There is no sense in discussing this.
ABC of LCD technology. *VA panels have color shift due to their design. *VA = Vertical Alignment = Color shift.
2x2=4

There is no neutral sharpness setting on the 2408. 50 is edge enhancing and 25 is blurring.

This setting is intended primarily for analog connection or non-native resolutions (< 1920x1200)
Well calibrated monitor has no need in sharpness adjustment.

The sRGB mode is useless (completely undersaturated) so the screen doesn't work properly for applications not supporting color management

What do you expect from 24" WG consumer monitor?
Samsung XL20 "widest gamut" with LED backlight - 20" monitor for $1500 has useless sRGB mode too.

It's a miracle to me why this screen does not support a simple digital color space conversion

It will be a miracle to all if 30"NEC($2000) or 30"Eizo($3000-5000) really support a "simple" digital color space coversion.

Games: lag (and xbitlabs' article about it is pseudo-scientific babble, not an experts' opinion

This is the ONLY thing that was not expected from this monitor.
It has 3 frames lag, while 2 frames are normal for *VA.

If it wasn't for the missing overdrive circuit and 8 bit processing, the old 213T would still beat anything under €2000 except maybe for the unavailable NEC 2490

This statement helps understand your individual method of monitor evaluation.
Yes. indeed!
If it wasn't for the missing V12 engine and leather seats, the old Civic would still beat anything under €200000 except maybe for Rolls-Royce Phantom.

 

[et328]

If we look for "effects" we'll always find them even if they do not exist.

But the effect really exists and you don't have to look for it. The 2407WFP-HC also has the same effect

This setting is intended primarily for analog connection or non-native resolutions (< 1920x1200) Well calibrated monitor has no need in sharpness adjustment..

That is correct. So that makes me wonder why the sharpness setting is enabled in 2408WFP's native resolution with digital connection? And why the default sharpness setting is not neutral? Calibration won't make any difference to the edge enhancement, it's still there no matter what you do with calibration.

 

[albovin]

So that makes me wonder why the sharpness setting is enabled in 2408WFP's native resolution with digital connection? And why the default sharpness setting is not neutral? Calibration won't make any difference to the edge enhancement, it's still there no matter what you do with calibration.

why the sharpness setting is enabled in 2408WFP's native resolution with digital connection?

I think it is enabled not specifically for native resolution with digital connection but for all resolutions with digital connection. Making exception for 1920x1200 would be just a technical complication.

Calibration won't make any difference to the edge enhancement, it's still there no matter what you do with calibration

Look at the enlarged text on the Dell 2408 screen.
As you know, Clear Type puts some coloration around letters. So letters are not pure black or pure blue on pure white background.
In my opinion, the less the vividness of this coloration the sharper the text. Calibration reduced red and especially green.
So it seems logical to expect text sharpness improvement after calibration.

 

[et328]

Making exception for 1920x1200 would be just a technical complication.

But the 2407WFP-HC works that way (and it doesn't have oversharpness problems). So did Dell make a mistake when they enabled 2408WFP's 1920x1200 sharpness adjustment?

In my opinion, the less the vividness of this coloration the sharper the text. Calibration reduced red and especially green. So it seems logical to expect text sharpness improvement after calibration.

I'm not talking about ClearType. I don't use ClearType, I really hate the effect it makes to some letters. No matter what you do, tweak or adjust, ClearType fonts still look like crap.

2408WFP's edge enhancement is not visible on white backgrounds (unless you lower contrast/RGB-levels so that white is not 100% white). But it's clearly visible with light grey/blue backgrounds with 8-9 point black letters and also in menu graphics etc (I'm using Win XP with Windows Classic theme).

 

[videobruce]

To answer my own questions that no one would/could;
Using a HD tuners composite and component outputs, I saw NO issue with the monitor displaying a proper image. Though the composite input looks poor (typical LCD), it is proportioned properly.

There are two issues with the set I received;

1. The left side is brighter than the rest of the screen. I would say 3 or 4" in is the area affected. It is really noticeable at very low luminance levels (grey or any color). I do notice the brightness shift between the center and both edges, but the left side is much worse than the dropoff to the righ,
2. Banding is also noticeable. At the lower luminance levels (same levels where the brightness issues shows) you can plainly see the 'steps' between the different levels.

How typical are both of these issues? Should I bother with an exchange?

 

[alexthebored]

I got mine today as well.

No dead pixels; minor BLB on all four corners, but I don't find it that distracting.

I'm kinda mucking around with self calibration, but I'm pretty shitty at it. I keep switch between custom RGB mode (with it set at what albovin had in the review), sRGB, and Warm. It's like I can't make up my mind. I was also fiddling with nvidia's color management... there's just so many ways to calibrate overall that it's kind of intimidating. I was on the lagom site, but I found I did a terrible job of calibration; I usually somehow changed back whatever I "fixed."

I have it on dynamic contrast right now, can't decide if I'm going to keep it like that or not.

PS3 looks awesome on it. I need to find a way to get sound to work. The 1:1 mode was really good; curiously the first time I tried a 720P game, there were multi colored lines going down the entire image and OSD. I was worried, but when I refreshed the input, it went back to normal. Hoping it's a one time freak occurance.

One problem I've noted: I visit a forum with a blue/teal background. When I move my head to the side, one side of the screen gets lighter while the other gets darker. It's more prominant on the left hand side of the screen, but it's present on the right side as well. It isn't a huge shift, but it's noticeable.

I really want to find someone who can help me with calibration.

 

[videobruce]

Turn that DC off for starters.

 

[alexthebored]

Yeah I ended up doing that, drove me nuts how anytime a site had the slightest dark background the screen went black

 

[kjems]

Does anyone got an ICC color profile for this monitor? (For use with Windows XP)

 

[Aresbowman]

Albovin,

Thanks for the great review. I have some questions surrounding the color calibration section of your review. You state

Not the best news is that sRGB preset mode failed with dE=7.3. Calibration did not help.​

This seems somewhat confusing as the Figure titled “Comparison of calibration to sRGB to RGB standard” shows a dE of 1.0, low color temp variations, and average gamma of 2.22. These are presumably quite good results. Additionally the CIE chart capture for this Figure seems incorrect, if I had to guess I would say the CIE chart capture in the Figure titled “Comparison of standard sRGB mode with sRGB standard” is actually the calibrated one?

Later on in your review you re-state that calibration doesn’t help but then go on to mention excellent calibration results……

Regarding picture quality, color shifting is the first half of the problem. The second half is a “wide gamut” issue. As we have seen from the instrumental test, sRGB preset on the Dell 2408 has no practical use. Colors are way undersaturated. Calibration does not help.

Using a default mode leaves us with oversaturated greens and reds. Despite excellent calibration results, pure greens and pure reds are still oversaturated.​

The way I am reading your review is that the sRGB mode is garbage but the monitor can be effectively calibrated to sRGB space with nice results (i.e. dE <= 1 is excellent). Is this a correct statement?

 

[sprak74]

Does anyone got an ICC color profile for this monitor? (For use with Windows XP)

It should work with XP

http://ftp.us.dell.com/monitors/Dell_2408WFP_A00-00_R172933.exe

 

[albovin]

Not the best news is that sRGB preset mode failed with dE=7.3. Calibration did not help.​

This seems somewhat confusing as the Figure titled “Comparison of calibration to sRGB to RGB standard” shows a dE of 1.0, low color temp variations, and average gamma of 2.22. These are presumably quite good results.

Yes, it may seem confusing at first glance.
The answer is that "sRGB mode" and "sRGB standard" are different things.
sRGB mode is a factory preset - a firm combination of settings sealed somewhere deep inside the monitor and called "sRGB mode". It's supposed to emulate sRGB standard or color space.
It does emulate as you see in the "Comparison of sRGB mode with sRGB standard" - the black triangle. But suffers terrible losses in color accuracy - dE=7.3
Calibration of this mode did not bring any improvements. I did not provide sRGB mode calibration results to save time and space - nothing to look at.
So, sRGB mode is garbage, it's true.

“Comparison of standard sRGB mode with sRGB standard” is actually the calibrated one?

No. This is a factory preset - out of the box.

Regarding picture quality, color shifting is the first half of the problem. The second half is a “wide gamut” issue. As we have seen from the instrumental test, sRGB preset on the Dell 2408 has no practical use. Colors are way undersaturated. Calibration does not help.

Yes. We have just covered this. Again, it's about sRGB mode.

Using a default mode leaves us with oversaturated greens and reds. Despite excellent calibration results, pure greens and pure reds are still oversaturated.
The way I am reading your review is that the sRGB mode is garbage but the monitor can be effectively calibrated to sRGB space with nice results (i.e. dE <= 1 is excellent). Is this a correct statement?

Yes. The statement is correct. But remember, the probe uses pure color samples - we see a real picture.
The probe does it's great job making your monitor closer to perfection but it cannot convert color gamut.
Depending on what program we use for image viewing, standart gamut pictures may look more natural or less natural on a calibrated wide gamut monitor.

 

[10e]

ATI cards are better in this respect. My 8800GTS 512MB suffers from this to a very small extent on XP, and to a HUGE extent on Vista 64 using both the 169.25 drivers and 174.74 drivers.

If I see someone test input lag on Vista 64 with an 8800GTS G92/512MB I instantly disregard those results.

I have seen more than a 30ms difference depending on port.

I did not see this on the 3870/3870x2/3850 cards I've tried.

Very disheartening.

10e

Did you use a DVI splitter to test input lag, or just both ports on a video card? When I tried using both ports, I got different results based on which ports I used. I even got different results using XP vs. Vista.

 

[Megalomaniac]

ATI cards are better in this respect. My 8800GTS 512MB suffers from this to a very small extent on XP, and to a HUGE extent on Vista 64 using both the 169.25 drivers and 174.74 drivers.

If I see someone test input lag on Vista 64 with an 8800GTS G92/512MB I instantly disregard those results.

I have seen more than a 30ms difference depending on port.

I did not see this on the 3870/3870x2/3850 cards I've tried.

Very disheartening.

10e

wow, scary.

so on the 8800s, which port is better? or do they randomly alternate?
the one close, or further from the mobo?

 

[zzz]

albovin, your review states "This delay has no effect on the mouse movement in everyday use." So tell me, how does the monitor discern what's the mouse cursor and what's not, in order to lag everything else by >60ms, but render the cursor immediately? Why and how did the engineers design it that way? Please explain. Oh wait, what's that? The cursor is lagged too? That's what I thought! This is the single aspect of this monitor that would make me never buy it or recommend it to anyone, yet your review stated the complete opposite of what's true!

 

[Giolon]

zzz, I agree with albovin's statement (although if we're playing the nitpicking game he should have technically said "this delay has no perceptible effect on the mouse movement in everyday use". I've got this monitor, and it also happens to be hooked up to an 8800GTS which 10e is claiming is terrible for the input lag it causes. Well, I have not experienced any input lag caused issues with this combination of equipment. My mouse cursor moves crisply on the screen exactly when and how I expect it to as I move the physical mouse with my hand. I've played Crysis, HL2, WoW, and Sins of a Solar Empire, used Photoshop, Word, Illustrator all without noticing any lagging effects.

 

[zzz]

zzz, I agree with albovin's statement (although if we're playing the nitpicking game he should have technically said "this delay has no perceptible effect on the mouse movement in everyday use". I've got this monitor, and it also happens to be hooked up to an 8800GTS which 10e is claiming is terrible for the input lag it causes. Well, I have not experienced any input lag caused issues with this combination of equipment. My mouse cursor moves crisply on the screen exactly when and how I expect it to as I move the physical mouse with my hand. I've played Crysis, HL2, WoW, and Sins of a Solar Empire, used Photoshop, Word, Illustrator all without noticing any lagging effects.

Instead of saying it has no effect on mouse movement, he should have said he's insensitive to it. At 69ms, this monitor has a bigger impact on the mouse than any other monitor, and saying it has no effect is flat out wrong, so I don't consider that nit picking.

I'm surprised you don't notice it, especially while trying to aim in an FPS. Whether you can perceive it or not, this lag would put you at a huge disadvantage in online FPS gaming (especially CS). And since you can't perceive it, I'm thinking you'd get owned anyway (no offense).

 

[albovin]

albovin, your review states "This delay has no effect on the mouse movement in everyday use." So tell me, how does the monitor discern what's the mouse cursor and what's not, in order to lag everything else by >60ms, but render the cursor immediately? Why and how did the engineers design it that way? Please explain. Oh wait, what's that? The cursor is lagged too? That's what I thought! This is the single aspect of this monitor that would make me never buy it or recommend it to anyone, yet your review stated the complete opposite of what's true!

?? The meaning is pretty much straightforward: "this delay has no perceptible effect on the mouse movement in everyday use" - as Giolon says.

lag everything else by >60ms, but render the cursor immediately?

Hey, what is "60ms" cursor rendering for internet surfing, sending mail, doing projects, editing video, playing chess, watching movies and photos?
Without this lag paranoia, I wouldn't even mention anything about cursor.

your review stated the complete opposite of what's true!

Strange, the review gives all possible objective measurements (except pixel response time), input lag is also measured - 50-55 ms with my computer configuration - and shown on video. Features and issues illustrated, explanations and links provided. So that everyone can weigh what is better for him. I don't see anything major about the review.
If you focus on extreme gaming, this monitor is probably not for you.

 

[zzz]

btw, thanks for the review. I was just being extra critical on one critical issue.

Hey, what is "60ms" cursor rendering for internet surfing, sending mail, doing projects, editing video, playing chess, watching movies and photos?

The lag is very noticeable to me in any task involving the mouse. Many people have described the mouse as being "floaty", and with delayed feedback it's hard to precisely point at anything in a quick motion. If you don't move your mouse briskly and you're slower, you might not notice it. For movie playback however, I might not notice 60ms of sound sync.

Also, thanks for measuring the lag. Too many reviews omit it. This site shows another data point, where their measurements averaged 69ms.

 

[undertheradar]

So LCD's still havent been able to match CRT's then for speed, quality, etc... eh?

 

[ATL SNiP3R 404]

So, is it really that big of a deal if my Xbox 360 or Crysis lags on this monitor? If I'm used to a TN monitor.

 

[solideliquid]

I got mine today as well.

No dead pixels; minor BLB on all four corners, but I don't find it that distracting.

I'm kinda mucking around with self calibration, but I'm pretty shitty at it. I keep switch between custom RGB mode (with it set at what albovin had in the review), sRGB, and Warm. It's like I can't make up my mind. I was also fiddling with nvidia's color management... there's just so many ways to calibrate overall that it's kind of intimidating. I was on the lagom site, but I found I did a terrible job of calibration; I usually somehow changed back whatever I "fixed."

I have it on dynamic contrast right now, can't decide if I'm going to keep it like that or not.

PS3 looks awesome on it. I need to find a way to get sound to work. The 1:1 mode was really good; curiously the first time I tried a 720P game, there were multi colored lines going down the entire image and OSD. I was worried, but when I refreshed the input, it went back to normal. Hoping it's a one time freak occurance.

One problem I've noted: I visit a forum with a blue/teal background. When I move my head to the side, one side of the screen gets lighter while the other gets darker. It's more prominant on the left hand side of the screen, but it's present on the right side as well. It isn't a huge shift, but it's noticeable.

I really want to find someone who can help me with calibration.

I'm curious about the PS3 hookup. According to the review, plugging in a blu ray player via HDMI did not result in a full 1080p picture. It resulted in cropping and distortion of the image.

Does playing a BD movie via a PS3 plugged into the HDMI port yield similar results or a full 1080p picture? According to the review he had to use an HDMI/DVI adapter to get full 1080p I'd hate to have to do that with this $600 display, know what I mean?

 

[ATL SNiP3R 404]

So, is it really that big of a deal if my Xbox 360 or Crysis lags on this monitor, If I'm used to a TN monitor?

Bump.

 

[k3nnis]

bump

 

[katoman1932]

Unbelievably informative review. Many thanks. I now need to save money and purchase one!