Dell XPS 410 @ [H] Consumer

Pkirk618 said:
Good review. Too bad Dell doesn't know or care how bad their technical service is.
Click to expand...

They have read this, I assure you, and I would suggest there are few people there in key positions that care very very much.
 
focb said:
Moved all the way around the globe to Germany... wonder if the support for Dell Deutschland is also done in India? :D
Click to expand...

it may still be 'nearsourced' to Ireland. When I had trouble with my Germany bought D600, I ended up talking to a person in Ireland (which is also where I was working at that time).

then again, that was 3 years ago, who knows how it is in 2K6
 
beowulf7 said:
That's a pretty thorough review. :cool: I wonder, however, why "Exceptional" is rated below "Excellent". Aren't they synonymous? If not, wouldn't "exceptional" be higher? Perhaps there should be a "Very good" between "Good" and the upper 2 rankings.

According to the bottom line score, this Dell barely makes it to "poor".
Click to expand...

I think we are very specific about what our scoring means. I am sorry you do not agree with it. Feel free to mail me your suggestions that you feel are a better explanation of our scoring. It would be appreciated.
 
I've only had one computer that I haven't built myself. My first one which was a 486 that a teacher at school built for me back in 1995. This article just cements my opinion that people should not buy dells. They get sucked in by low prices, not really understanding that the experience as a whole is often poor at best. I don't know about their business support though. I can't really comment on that, but I have my own small computer repair business here in NC and I've heard from customers about how poor dell support is. I SERIOUSLY doubt that I would ever buy a dell for myself or family. I continue to think that a custom built computer is the overall best way to go. I even build servers for customers. I've built several computers for customers and have never had one come back on me yet. The reason is because I test the hell out of them before I deliver. I run them through various torture tests to make sure that they don't fail. Most of my customers have been just basic home and business users, so they don't need a super fast machine....just a stable machine, and I provide them that. I can also usually offer same day on-site support. That's important to people, especially businesses.
 
350zdanny said:
1) I think your reviews have become a bit too critical of actual shipping damage to the box rather than the computer itself. Dell doesn't really have control of how a carrier handles its product on a box by box basis, but if the computer arrives absent of physical damage, Dell's packaging engineers did their duty. Also, I was surprised that you were so critical of the "Open Me First" label. It doesn't hurt anything.

2) On the other hand, I definitely think you guys should be more critical of Dell's case interior. I know you mentioned it in passing, but the interior of the case is not really up to "XPS" standards in my opinion. In fact, from the pictures you posted, it appears that the wiring job you got with your system is worse than the $600 BTX system I purchased last year. Given that the XPS case is identical to the other Dell cases, I feel like the actual build of the computer is one area where Dell could have distanced the XPS brand from its other products, and it did not do so.

3) One of the most interesting areas of your review is always the tech support section and I thank you guys for bending over backwards and taking your time to expose the flaws of even the best companies' tech support departments. But I think it is almost getting to the point that tech support is too large a part of the overall article. I value the info, but when I usually bring tech support issues to an OEM computer manufacturer, I've already diagnosed my problem (as I'm sure most of the readers here have). In most cases, it takes me only a few mins to empty their head and press for an RMA. Still, I understand the need for a comprehensive evaluation of the overall experience.
Click to expand...

Josh has already responded here, but I need to throw my 2 cents in, as well.

First, thanks for your thoughts and for reading.

1) It's no secret that computers aren't like Hummers - they need to be treated gingerly. If a box looks like it's been sent down a flight of stairs, then we can start to think about possible damage to the system. To be clear, an OEM is NEVER punished for external shipping damage. They ARE punished for not providing appropriate packing materials to protect the system from prospective damage. The point in this article is that the chassis was damaged BEFORE it was put in the box. That's a QC problem, not a shipping problem.

Yes, we mentioned the "Open Me First" label, but it's not as if Dell was penalized for it. It was an aside comment on how Dell puts effort in some directions but not others.

2) Yes, for an XPS system, we expected a bit more of the wiring, which we mentioned. However, we also said that the wiring did not cause any inherent problems with the integration. We didn't have impeded airflow, and it was easy to access all of the hardware. We can't hit them too hard for having a lack of flair. Now a boutique who advertises "custom wiring" or the like will get looked at a bit harder. For most folks who will buy a Dell, they never open the side of the case, anyway. We actually saw the attempt by Dell to do as much as they did as almost admirable.

3) If you look at the overall consumer experience in buying from an OEM, the rubber meets the road in the support. As we're known to say, there's not much magic pixie dust that separates hardware. You put the same hardware into different machines from different OEMs, and they're likely to perform very similarly, all things being equal. What sets companies apart are the peripheral features - purchasing ease, customer care, tech support, build quality, stability. These are the things that REALLY matter in our evaluations, and the most important one in our minds is tech support. That and build quality lend us the most comprehensive idea of how much the company cares about its customers. If they put effort into these two things, then most of the other features will fall into place.

Combing out good support from bad support is a major tenet in establishing the overall value of a system and the success of the OEM in serving the customer. And as much as we'd like to go to tech support with our current knowledge, have them spend 5 minutes with us and solve our issues (that we would have been able to solve ourselves), this does nothing for the consumer at large. This defeats the purpose of calling tech support if we give them all of the answers first. Remember that the enthusiast market is extremely small, and not only enthusiasts read these articles. A complete tech support experience account is nothing but mandatory.
 
DNA Doc said:
3) If you look at the overall consumer experience in buying from an OEM, the rubber meets the road in the support. As we're known to say, there's not much magic pixie dust that separates hardware. You put the same hardware into different machines from different OEMs, and they're likely to perform very similarly, all things being equal. What sets companies apart are the peripheral features - purchasing ease, customer care, tech support, build quality, stability. These are the things that REALLY matter in our evaluations, and the most important one in our minds is tech support.
[...]
Remember that the enthusiast market is extremely small, and not only enthusiasts read these articles. A complete tech support experience account is nothing but mandatory.
Click to expand...
I usually skip all the 'gameplay evaluations' etc. and only look at a few parts of the articles:
  • shipping
  • bloatware
  • tech support
  • conslusion
 
Just an FYI, as a person who has worked retail and handled boxes of many kinds belonging to various products (TVs, printers, computer cases, etc.) I can say that the handle ripping could've happened at any time. I have always done my lifting of boxes with two hands, by the handles and occasionally one of them does rip on its own if it didn't already come partially ripped from the vendor/distribution center. It's happened to me mostly with EMachines boxes and boxes for over-the-range microwaves. Being that this is a Dell system I am under the assumption that there is no middleman like there would be, say like Best Buy, which has its own distrobution centers for sending stuff out to the stores, so that cuts out another potential handler that could've already damaged it..

I don't know if that will change the score or not, and I don't care if it does, because as you pointed out, someone probably got lazy, and that will definitely do it without a doubt. Hell, I don't even know why some handles on certain boxes of the same product will rip while others don't even when you lift them the exact same way, two-handed. Maybe I just grip stronger with one hand? Hell if I know. But I do know from my experience that things like that do happen even when you do things right, and I figured I'd share.
 
You guys still had better luck than I did. Here's my experience with Dell support:

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1090216

Bottom line, Oblivion hitches, not in a normal "graphics are too much" way (using my crappier computer to compare), and he tells me to seek out a local tech support to fix it. I understand on the surface it seems like a software issue, but I'm highly doubting it. His response was basically the first you got of "Your video card doesn't work with [insert-game-title]".

Bleh. I'm getting all pissed off again about it.
 
It's good to see Josh on the [H] team. I have enjoyed his work over at MaximumPC (been a subscriber for years) and look forward to seeing more quality reviews.
 
I'm also a MaximumPC subscriber. It is the only computer magazine that I'll base buying decisions on.
 
I like the article, I like how you guys provide experience from the end user view...espically with the tech support. Ive gotten fed up with tech support of the years and now I just flat out lie to them to get what I need to fix it.

The packages could be better handled, Ill agree but thats not entierly Dells fault. What is Dells fault is they don't contact UPS and give them a big WTF are you doing with our boxes.
 
As I've stated before, [H] consumer reviews are superb and even though there has been some personnel changes the last couple of months the quality of the reviews are still excellent.

With that said, I understand and appreciate the diversity in system selection for your reviews but I would rather have seen an XPS 700 review. Even though this system was an XPS, it still seemed 'mid-range' to me. You guys have done many top of the line systems or 'upper echelon' systems such as the Systemax Hellcat recently, why not see what Dell's flagship has to offer? I know there are more curious than just me. Plus as you guys already know, the 'flagship' models always have a halo effect on the remaining inventory of products from any one company.

Who knows, with a good review of Dells best, they could possibly start getting some good publicity.
 
The reviewer said the dent occurred before it left the factory. This was in the article and also in this thread.

hity645 said:
I like the article, I like how you guys provide experience from the end user view...espically with the tech support. Ive gotten fed up with tech support of the years and now I just flat out lie to them to get what I need to fix it.

The packages could be better handled, Ill agree but thats not entierly Dells fault. What is Dells fault is they don't contact UPS and give them a big WTF are you doing with our boxes.
Click to expand...
 
I almost bought, well I did but finally gave up on ever getting it, an XPS 700.

Dell's blatant condescension and arrogance finally proved to much for me and I bailed out of that crash in progress.

We actually use Dell workstations at work but we can get them cheap and fix whatever breaks ourselves inhouse.

SamuraiInBlack said:
"Dell computers are great, as long as you intend on fixing them yourself."
Click to expand...

QFT brother q.f.t.
 
macguy said:
The reviewer said the dent occurred before it left the factory. This was in the article and also in this thread.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the ripped handle, and Ive seen many a dell box missing its tracking number or just plain torn to shreds. I never said anything about the dent.
 
macguy said:
If that were true then obviously this review would have come out very differently. Either that or these people care but are powerless which I doubt very much.
Click to expand...

I can also assure you that Dell is very aware of this article. Their automated phone issues are already in the process of being addressed. In fact, they have a market research study planned exclusively for evaluating the usability of their automated phone system. They may not crash our forums and talk about all of the changes they're making, but there are definitely things happening over there.

We've developed a very nice relationship with Dell and there will be a lot of discussion about this article to come.
 
macguy said:
If that were true then obviously this review would have come out very differently. Either that or these people care but are powerless which I doubt very much. I see Dell is trying to make their margin these days by charging even more for ram, optical drives etc. They want $70 for a DVD burner for example. I know its sata but c'mon. One interesting thing I saw in Anands recent review of this system is that the power supply is no longer proprietary but the motherboard still is. Anyway given what Dell charges these days there are much better choices available.
Click to expand...

If you had read the very first Dell review, then read the articles and subsequent reviews, you would know that Dell is aware of what the [H] is printing about them and working on it.
 
if Dell does shape up then I'd consider purchasing a Dell COMPUTER in the future. I think the cost of better service all around will increase sales all around. IOW, it's worth it for Dell to make a change.
 
I used to buy one about every 18-24 months for my Mom. Last time I upgraded she said "Anything but Dell". It was Tech Support that caused her to not want another Dell. Support from India is SubPar.

DM
 
Man, I love these reviews. Lately,some of them have had me outright laughing outloud. I loved that line about the door flying off, the other was the line about the 7900GS not being compatable with FEAR......this stuff is comical, you cant make it up if you tried.

Its too bad that things haven't seemed to improve much at Dell.....I recall your article a while back about how they touted their coming of the "interactive" support and their commitment to exclusive XPS support.....

Seems like no one at Dell read your article.
In the plus column.....good marks for the Core2, a much better wiring job than SysteMax, and hardly any bloat.

Great article as always. :D
 
amdfan25 said:
Its nothing unusual that your tech support would be that lacking. I have called Dell numerous times (usually non hardware related ) and its either 1) they are hard to understand 2) sometimes kinda cocky or 3) can't help you.
Click to expand...

I could not agree more with the above quote. I have clients that insist on buying Dell desktop/server hardware, and whenever I have to call for Dell for their warranty service, this is exactly the same experience I have had time and time again. The fact that Josh was speaking to "premium" level support and got this response is inexcusable.

Of course, you can not tell Dell support that you are a qualified engineer and already know what part(s) need to be replaced. They insist on wasting an hour (or more) of your time to confirm what you already know...assuming they can figure it out.

Personally, I am getting to the point that I am ready to tell some clients I am not supporting Dell equipment anymore. Recently, I have gotten in the habit of insisting on speaking to someone in the US as soon as I get a human voice on the line, and if you don't get cut off while the line is transferred several times, the support is slightly better.

Congratulations to Josh on an exceptional review. I can't wait to see what kind of spin the Dell suits will put on the review and the abysmal tech support assuming they bother to answer Josh's (very valid) criticizms.
 
Good article.

Welcome to [H] Josh, I particularly liked the fact that the article extended my vocabulary knowledge.

To be honest, we don’t really understand what makes this system worthy of the XPS moniker
Click to expand...

I agree. Seems like XPS is nothing but an over hyped marketing box.

We also have a driver disk for the X-Fi soundcard, a useless WordPerfect CD (who uses this program?), and a great-looking AOL coaster for our cold beverage
Click to expand...

What is an AOL coaster?
 
JOESKURTU said:
Seems like XPS is nothing but an over hyped marketing box.
Click to expand...


I dont think that stands for the entire line, but certainly this model.
 
JOESKURTU said:
What is an AOL coaster?
Click to expand...

AOL install disk. Pretty much people get so many of them people call them coasters as that is what we use them for. Its not like one of us would load aol on are systems.
 
JOESKURTU said:
Good article.

What is an AOL coaster?
Click to expand...

Dell put an AOL CD in the box, but since we'd never use it to install AOL, we just use the CD as a coaster instead.
 
Josh_Norem said:
Dell put an AOL CD in the box, but since we'd never use it to install AOL, we just use the CD as a coaster instead.
Click to expand...

Problem is you get too many of them to use just as coasters. I prefer the microwave aproach to get rid of them personaly.
 
It's good to see that [H]Ocp is doing so much for the industry and making the big (and not-so-big)OEMs step up thier game and demand the support that the customer is paying for (or getting as an added value).

I like the fact that you go the extra mile after the article is released to develop a relationship with the supplier of the reviewed PC, that way the supplier can have open communication and figure out how to fix problems within the company that they may or may not be aware of.

Good Job as always, and a great read... keep up the good work.

Welcome to the [H] Crew Josh !!! Big fan of MaxPC... (just wish they covered more Linux stuff... :( but thats another topic)

Mike160
 
So part of me hopes that things get better for [H]ard consumer, so that life will be easy, but at the same time, what will I read in my spare time to make me laugh?
These reviews of troubled systems are awesome. And I really enjoy hearing back from the company. So much for Dell's previous promises of improvement.

On a more applicable note, I sell computers for a major blue retail chain. I cannot tell you how often I hear these complaints about Dell. Especially considering their out-sourced tech support. I don't fault the guy on the other end of the line, he's got a job, congrats to him. But if all he does is read a FAQ off of Dell's website, and then fiddle with some drivers (the searching in the creative labs website cracked me up), that's not what people pay for.

Also, on the business side of things, BusinessWeek magazine ran an article with the cover-heading "What the Dell Happened" and the title Dark Days at Dell.
Found here http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_36/b3999048.htm?chan=search

It's a good read about why Dell is failing at meeting market forces, and keeping up.



[H]ey [H] consumer, why not do an HP? I have yet to see one as far as I can remember. Maybe their new AM2 or Core 2 systems. I kinda want to see how their customer support adds up.
 
On the "Open Me First" label:

This is just my guess...but here's what I think that may be about. I just got a Dell Insperion (non-XPS line) laptop in the mail yesterday. Since it was a laptop, it only came with one box, but that box also had an "Open Me First" label. I'm wondering if the reason for this is because they (Dell) place their quick system setup poster and related documentation in the main computer box.

In other words, if you bought a system with both a cpu tower and a monitor, for example, they want you to open the tower's box first as it contains the system setup documentation.

Not trying to make excuses or anything...it was just a thought that I had.

Oh, and great review, by the way!
 
No surpise ..its a dell for godsakes. Dell's have and will always be the mainstream user ..the mom and dads. The grandma's and grandpa's .. Dell no matter how hard they will try they will always be this because this is how he made his fortune ..he didn't make it selling to hardcore users ..he made it selling PC's to the users that thought a cheap PC was beyond reach.


No matter how hard Dell try's ..they wont ever be up to the pre-build hardcore pc standard of Voodoo, Alienware and Falcon Northwest. Dell should just back out of the XPS line focus on what they do best and thats selling mainstream PC's to mainstream users.
 
Modred189 said:
[H]ey [H] consumer, why not do an HP? I have yet to see one as far as I can remember. Maybe their new AM2 or Core 2 systems. I kinda want to see how their customer support adds up.
Click to expand...

We've done two HP systems. Search for HP and Compaq in our desktops. We were okay with the build quality, but the support was horrendous.

HP is the only Tier I not enrolled in our program, despite our requests.

They're not offering anything special and our experiences with them so far have been lackluster. I'm not sure what they bring to the table that we can't see with Gateway or Dell. Their comments to us in our discussions with them make it appear that they're unwilling to change their business practices unless it suits them. However, if they come back to us and say they want to join our program, we'd certainly oblige them and do some systems.
 
Godmachine said:
No matter how hard Dell try's ..they wont ever be up to the pre-build hardcore pc standard of Voodoo, Alienware and Falcon Northwest. Dell should just back out of the XPS line focus on what they do best and thats selling mainstream PC's to mainstream users.
Click to expand...

Not sure if you've been keeping up with the news, but Dell owns Alienware now.
 
Josh_Norem said:
Dell put an AOL CD in the box, but since we'd never use it to install AOL, we just use the CD as a coaster instead.
Click to expand...

Dell puts them in all their computers. All my friends/family that get Dells always get one of those in the box. They can be used as a coaster or a target for a BB gun. Either way at least it has some use. :D
 
DNA Doc said:
We've done two HP systems. Search for HP and Compaq in our desktops. We were okay with the build quality, but the support was horrendous.

HP is the only Tier I not enrolled in our program, despite our requests.

They're not offering anything special and our experiences with them so far have been lackluster. I'm not sure what they bring to the table that we can't see with Gateway or Dell. Their comments to us in our discussions with them make it appear that they're unwilling to change their business practices unless it suits them. However, if they come back to us and say they want to join our program, we'd certainly oblige them and do some systems.
Click to expand...

Doc, you think with all that corporate stuff happening right now they would like to participate? Its quite comical what the higher ups at HP are being accused of. :eek: :(
 
DNA Doc said:
We've done two HP systems. Search for HP and Compaq in our desktops. We were okay with the build quality, but the support was horrendous.

HP is the only Tier I not enrolled in our program, despite our requests.

They're not offering anything special and our experiences with them so far have been lackluster. I'm not sure what they bring to the table that we can't see with Gateway or Dell. Their comments to us in our discussions with them make it appear that they're unwilling to change their business practices unless it suits them. However, if they come back to us and say they want to join our program, we'd certainly oblige them and do some systems.
Click to expand...

DOC, thanks for the reference, I missed that article (honeymoon at the time and all). Anyway, It's too bad that they don't feel up to joining in the program like Dell and Gateway do.
Especially with the new design of their notebooks... soo sweet.
 
DNA Doc said:
HP is the only Tier I not enrolled in our program, despite our requests.

They're not offering anything special and our experiences with them so far have been lackluster. I'm not sure what they bring to the table that we can't see with Gateway or Dell.
Click to expand...

I can only think of 2 things that HP does special.

One is partsurfer.hp.com. You can order non-warranty parts from them easy through there. This is real nice if you need a non-stardard part for a machine that is out of warranty. I really hate the fact I have to call india with Dell to order a keyboard for a notebook or something like that. Sony also lets you order parts off their site(even usb ports and dc jacks for notebooks) but doesn't have a good way to find the part number. Most of the time you either have to have access to the internal notes(like me) or email them. If you email sony they will get back to you in 48 hours. HP has the best setup for this. I've had to use it a bunch of times to get keyboards(notebook), card readers, ac adapters, etc.

Two is rapid repair(if they still do it). HP had a program with compusa(think best buy too) where if a desktop failed under hp warranty you could take it to the store and they could pull store stock to fix many common issues. Keyboard/mouse mess up. They could replace it with a logitech under warranty right then and there. Optical drive? Same thing. Hard drive? If you made the restore disks and brought them they could pull a new maxtor off the floor and install it for you. No need to order a refurb drive. Know a few friends that got upgrades this way. Store was out of 200 gig drives so they put a 250 in. Better DVDRW drive etc. It is nice that they were able to do that. Other things like if your onboard nic/sound went out you had the option of them order a replacement motherboard or just dropping in a card and disabling the onboard. It was a nice system. I had a few cleints that had hp systems. I've taken a few to compusa in the past when they failed and just had them fix it in minutes(with the hds I had them just drop it in the system and I reloaded the os, had the machine back in 20 minutes). Couldn't have gotten one ordered that fast.

This doesn't make up for the bad support you recieved. Just in my mind puts them a little higher then some other companies(toshiba).
 
DNA Doc said:
We've done two HP systems. Search for HP and Compaq in our desktops. We were okay with the build quality, but the support was horrendous.

HP is the only Tier I not enrolled in our program, despite our requests.

They're not offering anything special and our experiences with them so far have been lackluster. I'm not sure what they bring to the table that we can't see with Gateway or Dell. Their comments to us in our discussions with them make it appear that they're unwilling to change their business practices unless it suits them. However, if they come back to us and say they want to join our program, we'd certainly oblige them and do some systems.
Click to expand...

Why not just review their machines anyway? People deserve a right to know, at the very least, what NOT to buy.
 
SamuraiInBlack said:
Why not just review their machines anyway? People deserve a right to know, at the very least, what NOT to buy.
Click to expand...

They have
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top