Displacement Mapping, Source, and the Revolution

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Attean

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I'd originally posted this deep in another thread but thought it was discussion worthy so am posting it again.

Bay Raitt is working at Valve.

In case you don't know who he is, he basically invented displacement mapping. This is like normal mapping only it actually changes the silhouette of the model. From this I can only assume that Valve is working on getting displacement mapping into Source.

If they succeed and the revolution can handle this in real time then all arguments as to the viability and/or superiority of the hard-to-program-for x360 and ps3's multiple cores will be mute since artists will quickly utilize the revolutions inferior hardware to equal (and amazing) geometric orgies.

Look at games like Ico on the ps2. Or even WoW. Neither are by any scale resource hogs and yet they manage to look beautiful. Even with todays technology and normal maps, you can get the appearance of an amazing amount of geometric detail on code as old as sm2.0.

I don't think graphics will be an issue for the Revolution.

Oh, and I'm going to make a really stretched speculation. I heard that Valve was interested in the Revolution. I also heard that they were working on remaking a beefed up hl2 for it from a completely unreliable source, but wouldn't it be cool if they released the most amazing view of hl2 yet, with displacement mapping, and blew the industry out of the water on the revolution?
 
Valve most definately is interested in the Revolution (they expressed it on a few occasions) but I still haven't heard any concrete indications they're porting HL2+expansions to work with the new controller. That said, I have heard plenty of rumours to indicate it. As in the other thread, if you're concerned with things such as AI/physics, it should be easier for the Revolution to utilize those as well.

The in-order PPE cores of both the Cell and the Xenon (both of which suck ass with dynamic branch prediction) make it more difficult to run branch-intensive code such as AI and physics... moreso on the PS3 than the X360, since the PS3 only has 1 real core and only 512k cache instead of the 1mb on the X360. If the Revolution does indeed have a real G4/G5 class Power PC core instead of a PPE like the other 2 systems, AI and physics and other similar things should be much easier to do on the Rev. But then, dev's are saying that's the case with everything on the Rev.
 
Displacement mapping is using a black and white image to determine vertex position. How would this change anything. You would still need the same amount of ploygons/vertexs. Normal and Bump map just affects how light hits an object, instead of using geometry to do that. How displacement will increas performance is beyond me, unless Nintendo came up with some other thing that works like Normal mapping but are calling it displacement.
 
Attean said:
I'd originally posted this deep in another thread but thought it was discussion worthy so am posting it again.

Bay Raitt is working at Valve.

In case you don't know who he is, he basically invented displacement mapping. This is like normal mapping only it actually changes the silhouette of the model. From this I can only assume that Valve is working on getting displacement mapping into Source.

If they succeed and the revolution can handle this in real time then all arguments as to the viability and/or superiority of the hard-to-program-for x360 and ps3's multiple cores will be mute since artists will quickly utilize the revolutions inferior hardware to equal (and amazing) geometric orgies.

Look at games like Ico on the ps2. Or even WoW. Neither are by any scale resource hogs and yet they manage to look beautiful. Even with todays technology and normal maps, you can get the appearance of an amazing amount of geometric detail on code as old as sm2.0.

I don't think graphics will be an issue for the Revolution.

Oh, and I'm going to make a really stretched speculation. I heard that Valve was interested in the Revolution. I also heard that they were working on remaking a beefed up hl2 for it from a completely unreliable source, but wouldn't it be cool if they released the most amazing view of hl2 yet, with displacement mapping, and blew the industry out of the water on the revolution?
Click to expand...

I played WoW for 14 months... and never once did I think the graphics were better then 1996. The textures were crap .. plain and simple and rightfully had to be for an MMO. Displacement mapping ?

We'll have to wait and see. All this speculation is making my head spin.
 
theNoid said:
I played WoW for 14 months... and never once did I think the graphics were better then 1996. The textures were crap .. plain and simple and rightfully had to be for an MMO. Displacement mapping ?

We'll have to wait and see. All this speculation is making my head spin.
Click to expand...

I think what he was trying to say is that WoW, while technically primitive, looks good. They have a more than decent art team, and have made a lot out of their limitations. (The cartoony style of warcraft in general works well with the engine, luckily.)

(Seeing the sun rise over the barrens is pretty. Not high tech, but pretty.)
 
I own a 27'' standard t.v. with no plans for an HD for at least 2 years. If the Revolution looks better on a standard T.V. compared to X360 or PS3, it is all the more benifit for me and at least 85% of the total population. Displacement Mapping FTW!
 
Displacement mapping can take a 2D surface with 4 polygons and render it as a 3D object with hundreds, with little additional processing power. That is how it will improve both performance and visual quality.

Look at this example:
displacement7ky.jpg


As far as the GPU is concerned all it has to process is 4 vertices, plus some overhead for the actuall process of displacement mapping, and it will produce an object with many more vertices , essentially for free...
 
CodeEx said:
Displacement mapping can take a 2D surface with 4 polygons and render it as a 3D object with hundreds, with little additional processing power. That is how it will improve both performance and visual quality.

Look at this example:
displacement7ky.jpg


As far as the GPU is concerned all it has to process is 4 vertices, plus some overhead for the actuall process of displacement mapping, and it will produce an object with many more vertices , essentially for free...
Click to expand...

That picture doesn't work for me.
 
There are some pictures of comparison in this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2341775

An article here:
http://www.revolutioninsider.info/content/view/17/2/

And the patent itself, here:
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...&s1=20050237323&OS=20050237323&RS=20050237323

Basically, displacement mapping is not new. However, if you read into that patent, it seems that Nintendo and ATI have discovered and patented an alternate method of doing it that is essentially almost "free". With very low processor usage, and more efficient.
 
I am a fan of a high polygon count model. Needless to say I hate bump mapping because it looks nowhere near as good as a high poly count model. Displacement mapping looks like it'll be the savior here.
 
Holy cow steviep I didnt even know about those patents. No wonder valve is interested, that's amazing. I've been learning zbrush and the computer graphics industry is not ever going to be the same. It's so easy. Nintendo with that could easilly look better than the ps3 if sony isn't allowed to use displacement mapping, for considerably less overhead.
 
pistola said:
Displacement mapping is using a black and white image to determine vertex position. How would this change anything. You would still need the same amount of ploygons/vertexs. Normal and Bump map just affects how light hits an object, instead of using geometry to do that. How displacement will increas performance is beyond me, unless Nintendo came up with some other thing that works like Normal mapping but are calling it displacement.
Click to expand...

This is not the case. When I said bump mapping is like normal mapping only it effects the silhouette I meant it.
 
Attean said:
Holy cow steviep I didnt even know about those patents. No wonder valve is interested, that's amazing. I've been learning zbrush and the computer graphics industry is not ever going to be the same. It's so easy. Nintendo with that could easilly look better than the ps3 if sony isn't allowed to use displacement mapping, for considerably less overhead.
Click to expand...

Hey, I work to educate :D
Now if only there are some games that support HD on the Rev... :p
 
steviep said:
Hey, I work to educate :D
Now if only there are some games that support HD on the Rev... :p
Click to expand...


Any word on the "super secret" that Nintendo has for E3 this year? Just to clarify, there is a "big secret" right?
 
Isaacav2 said:
Any word on the "super secret" that Nintendo has for E3 this year? Just to clarify, there is a "big secret" right?
Click to expand...


as far as i know.. there is still one more secret about the revolution
 
lesman said:
Yes.....but I don't see how much more Nintendo can reveal about this thing.
Click to expand...

My guess would be a first party game that has been in development for 1.5 years.
 
Isaacav2 said:
My guess would be a first party game that has been in development for 1.5 years.
Click to expand...


i'm hoping more for a technological surprise.. like.. it gives free hand jobs or something.
 
Hahaha... I doubt that'll be it. But there are certainly some first party titles that have been in dev for more than 3 years. It will likely be something on the technological side, though.
 
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