Do I have to go mATX?

R

Ruahrc

Limp Gawd
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Mar 8, 2009
Messages
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I have been thinking about a new build. My current PC is an ST20G5 which is going on 5 years now I think. Anyways it's been a great PC but unfortunately one of the RAM slots on the mobo has died and thus I am limited to 1GB RAM maximum. Rather than spend money on replacing the mobo or buying a new barebones to house my current hardware (Socket 939), I think it is smarter to just build up a new PC.

With the ST20G5 I was limited to single slot video cards. I got along okay but even the more modern XPC chassis have facility for dual slot video cards. I won't run SLI nor will I buy the most powerful graphics card. I am looking mid range, like GTX285 level performance maybe? But with a newer GPU chip. Like a mid grade Radeon 5XXX.

The thing is though I think I want a discrete sound card. I used the onboard sound on my ST20G5 and while it gets by I think it is not the greatest. Sometimes the sounds have a brief pop in the games, and it seems to be common to all games so I think it's the onboard sound. I don't have high end speakers hooked up (music listening is done on a different system) but I don't want popping in the sounds? I have been thinking maybe in a new build, I would go back to a discrete sound card. I am liking those Auzentech cards which use the Xfi chip but are custom designs with superior components vs. the Creative ones.

I also need a wifi card as my PC is in a separate room to my router and I don't want to run cable. Shuttle made a custom wifi card for their XPCs which plugged into an internal header and bolted onto a bracket on the case. It had an antenna that stuck out the back. I loved it. Do many SFF makers nowadays make these kinds of things anymore, or are we all stuck on USB dongles or using another expansion slot for wifi? Being a new build it may as well be 802.11n (I have an n router).

Given this, I don't think that miniITX is going to work for me right? Because the one expansion slot will limit me to just installing a video card. The DTX spec looks promising with two expansion slots but if I can't get an internally connected wifi card I'll either have to go USB or move to mATX.

Lastly there is a little bit of space limitation. My current desk was designed to house the ST20G5 and thus the area I have for my PC is only about 12" wide. It's about 12" high and then is open to the back for ventilation. Any new case has to fit in here and not really have cooling problems.

I am tempted to lean towards the Lian Li V351b as I like the aesthetics. mATX might give me more room for cooling but it needs to be quiet! Part of the reason I went Shuttle with my current PC was that they were incredibly quiet for the power they had. It seems nowadays the modern Shuttles (like the SX58H7) can't handle the heat load of an i7 and a powerful graphics card without getting too loud. As much as I LOVE the compactness of the ST20G5, maybe I have to concede for better cooling and what would hopefully be a quieter case. After going SFF, quiet computers and small size are very important to me. I will never use a full size computer again! :)

What do you think, I am a little leery of moving back up the size scale but maybe it is necessary? Can I get what I am looking for in a smaller form factor? Am I being unreasonable with wanting a discrete sound card? Maybe the technology has improved a lot since then. I admit I have not really been following computer hardware for the past few years. Basically my ST20G5 was working so great I didn't care anymore! But now it's time to think to the future and I'm not sure I can justify/accept going with another Shuttle.

Ruahrc
 
It would help if you answered the questions from this thread:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1349433


Ruahrc said:
With the ST20G5 I was limited to single slot video cards. I got along okay but even the more modern XPC chassis have facility for dual slot video cards. I won't run SLI nor will I buy the most powerful graphics card. I am looking mid range, like GTX285 level performance maybe? But with a newer GPU chip. Like a mid grade Radeon 5XXX.
Click to expand...
Umm, the GTX 285, despite the release of the GTX 480 is still high-end graphics, not mid-range. The closes equivalent is the HD 5850.

Ruahrc said:
The thing is though I think I want a discrete sound card. I used the onboard sound on my ST20G5 and while it gets by I think it is not the greatest. Sometimes the sounds have a brief pop in the games, and it seems to be common to all games so I think it's the onboard sound. I don't have high end speakers hooked up (music listening is done on a different system) but I don't want popping in the sounds? I have been thinking maybe in a new build, I would go back to a discrete sound card. I am liking those Auzentech cards which use the Xfi chip but are custom designs with superior components vs. the Creative ones.
Click to expand...
Have you tried those speaker with a different system? Most of the time, those pops are speaker related, not onboard audio related
Ruahrc said:
I also need a wifi card as my PC is in a separate room to my router and I don't want to run cable. Shuttle made a custom wifi card for their XPCs which plugged into an internal header and bolted onto a bracket on the case. It had an antenna that stuck out the back. I loved it. Do many SFF makers nowadays make these kinds of things anymore, or are we all stuck on USB dongles or using another expansion slot for wifi? Being a new build it may as well be 802.11n (I have an n router).
Click to expand...
For mATX setups, basically USB dongles or a PCI-E/PCI wifi adapter. Many mini-ITX setups have integrated wifi.
Ruahrc said:
Given this, I don't think that miniITX is going to work for me right? Because the one expansion slot will limit me to just installing a video card.
Click to expand...
Ditch the sound card and mini-ITX is definitely doable.
 
1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Gaming, only gaming and nothing else. I have a Macbook Pro that I do all my other "real" computing on. But I'm not a "hardcore" gamer. I did recently get an HDTV so I have been doing a lot of console gaming but for multiplater FPS like TF2 I prefer PC because of dedicated servers.

Right now on the PC I play Dawn of Discovery, Silent Hunter IV (would like to get V), TF2, etc. I would like to play L4D2 with my friends but I did not buy it because I feel my current hardware is inadequate (mainly the RAM). I don't play competitively but do like turning on the highest graphics settings. Again monitor is 1680x1050. Also if I got a new PC I would probably start flight simming again, upgrading from my current FS9 to FSX.

2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
I usually approach new builds with "what's it gonna take to do it properly" vs. "how much do I have to spend". I target for a certain performance, not a certain price. When I see what it costs to get what I want, if it's too much I wait for prices to lower and/or save more money. But if you want a number, say $1000.

3) Where do you live?
USA

4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. Please be very specific.
I need a new mobo, RAM, PSU, GPU, case. I can probably get by with my current optical drive, also if needed I can re-use my HD (120GB 3.5") or use a spare 250GB 2.5" 5400rpm I have.

5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
see above

6) Will you be overclocking?
Not intending to (because I probably will be GPU limited with whatever CPU I pick) but I hear it's really easy to OC the i7s... But, noise is a concern to me and this has mainly kept me from OCing in the past.

7) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have?
22" 1680x1050 (Dell 2209WA)

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
Whenever. Say a month?

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? etc.
Don't need anything specific although I guess my DVD drive is still IDE. Maybe enough slots for a dual slot GPU, possible sound card, and maybe wifi card (the point of this thread hehe)

10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? 32bit or 64bit?
Have XP now, will get Win7 64 bits edition (legit) from my university.

Re: the GTX285- yeah see I'm a bit behind on modern components. I think maybe the 260 is enough then? I typically prefer to use the highest settings though, almost to the point where I won't play a game unless I can play it reasonably on the highest settings otherwise I just wait for it to get cheaper or I get new hardware.

Re: the sound on the speakers- I think it's the onboard because if I for example play MP3s on the computer it's fine. Only in 3D games do I notice there is some popping.

Ruahrc
 
Ruahrc said:
Re: the GTX285- yeah see I'm a bit behind on modern components. I think maybe the 260 is enough then? I typically prefer to use the highest settings though, almost to the point where I won't play a game unless I can play it reasonably on the highest settings otherwise I just wait for it to get cheaper or I get new hardware.

Re: the sound on the speakers- I think it's the onboard because if I for example play MP3s on the computer it's fine. Only in 3D games do I notice there is some popping.
Click to expand...

The GTX 260 is a bad bad buy these days for the money. Right now, ATI's HD 5xxx series have the best price to performance crown.

Audio wise, try the onboard sound first and then get a sound card if needed. No real reason for you to get a sound card.

Prelim build:
$165 - AMD Phenom II X4 955 CPU
$176 - MSI 785GM-E51 AM3 AMD 785G HDMI mATX Motherboard + G.SKILL 2 x 2GB F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL DDR3 1600 RAM
$235 - XFX HD-577X-ZNFC Radeon HD 5770 1GB PCI-E Video Card + XFX P1-650X-CAG9 650W Modular PSU
$70 - Western Digital WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
$61 - Silverstone SUGO SG02B-F Black mATX Case
$40 - Asus PCE-N13 Wireless N PCI-E x1 Wireless Adapter
-----
Total: $747 plus tax and shipping.

For straight up gaming, there's very little performance difference between a Core i5/Core i7 setup and an AMD Phenom II setup. A system is only as fast as the slowest part of a PC, in this case the hard drive. So I included one of the fastest consumer drives out now. For 1680x1050, the HD 5770 is more than enough.

If you really don't want that sound card, you can get a mini-ITX setup for ~$30 more:
$200 - Intel Core i5 750 CPU
$145 - ZOTAC H55ITX-A-E Intel H55 mini-ITX Motherboard
$106 - G.Skill Ripjaw Series F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL 2 x 2GB DDR3 1600 RAM
$160 - XFX HD-577X-ZNFC Radeon HD 5770 1GB PCI-E Video Card
$70 - Western Digital WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
$100 - Silverstone SG05B mITX Case with FSP SFX 300W PSU
---------------
Total: $781 plus tax and shipping

The Intel Core i5 750 is the cheapest Core i5 CPU worth buying. The rest have piss poor price to performance ratio. That mini-ITX mobo has built-in wireless NIC.

EDIT: Updated the builds a bit
 
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+1 for the above build. Good components. Might be able to save money on the mobo if you keep an eye out.
 
+2

Both builds look good. I'd think about one of the newer single platter 500GB drives but for a 5 year system the WD6400 has proven itself very reliable. Some great combos he has found there. Didn't know XFX even had a PSU?
 
Thanks for the builds, a great start.

I have always been an AMD man ever since way back in the K6 233MHz days (mainly cause it was cheaper) but I think this time around I want to try Intel. They have some really impressive hardware out there now with these CPUs. Your i5 750 vs. i7 suggestion is great as I don't see the need/benefit of hyperthreading to 8 cores on gaming.

What do you think of this build?

$100 Lian Li V351A silver
$200 i5 750
$55 Noctua NH-U9B Cooler
$120 MSI P55M-GD45 mATX mobo
$120 G-Skill Ripjaw 4GB (2x2GB) 7-8-7-24 timing
$170 XFX HD-577A-ZNFC Radeon HD 5770 1GB PCI-E video card (What's the difference between this one and the one you recommended? The cooling looks a little better as it has that "pump heat out the rear" design)
$120 Corsair CMPSU-650HX 650W 80Plus Bronze PSU
$40 ASUS PCE-N13 Wifi adapter (This looks fine except is there a good one that uses 5GHz? My router is the Apple Time Capsule which has the 5GHz N band in it so I can get enhanced bandwidth if I use a 5GHz adapter as well)
Total: $925

I went a little higher end on some of the components do you think some of them are worth it? I don't know what is a good mobo so I just found one that had good reviews. Although it is a plus to have a built in IDE slot as it would allow the re-use of my current DVD burner which is IDE. I can re-use my HD if I want to save some money or just use the one you recommended for only $70 more. Or, use the spare 250GB 5400rpm 2.5" HDD I have which would make the system quieter. I put in the Noctua cooler which if I read the Lian Li V350/351 thread here correctly fits in the case with no mods required. Chose a good 80Plus bronze PSU for high quality/efficiency and hopefully quiet operation. Is 650W overkill for this setup, maybe I can go lower?

That microATX case you suggested looks good but I wonder if I go microATX I may as well get something a little larger (like the Lian Li) for the ability of larger fans for decreased noise? The ITX case you put up I had seen before it looks pretty slick with the one big 120mm fan in it- is that 300W PSU sufficient to power these internals? Makes the 650W I specced out seem way too high. How quiet are those cases you recommended?

Ruahrc
 
The 300W in the Silverstone SG05 is indeed enough for an i5 750 and a HD 5770. It can even be enough for a HD 5870 depending on your other components. The case and CPU don't cause that much noise. The 120mm fan can be pretty much inaudible if you so prefer, and even the PSU isn't noisy, probably not any more so than the Corsair you listed. For comparison, my current SG03 has two 120mm fans that are undervolted, a H50 cooler and a Nexus Value 430 PSU which is supposedly one of the quietest out there. Yet the SG06 (identical to SG05 except the front) build I had for a while, with an E5200 CPU and a stock cooler from a Q6600, was basically almost as silent. Which makes me kinda regret swapping to the bigger case to begin with, especially as the total cost of this new build was much, much higher.

So, overall it's safe to go with the SG05 (or 06, it depends mostly on which look you prefer, I liked the 06) as far as noise and PSU capability goes. However, you might want a different GPU if you really want low noise. The GPU is likely to be noisier than the front fan and PSU. As such, it might make sense to get a MSI 5770 HAWK which is said to be quieter and cooler than units with stock cooling, and is the card I'm going to buy as soon as I can afford to. It's only 5 bucks more expensive than the XFX you listed, and can be overclocked more if you so choose. And it's reportedly made of higher-quality components than stock designs.

Note that you'll obviously have to use a different CPU cooler if you go with the SG05. See the thread on these forums for good suggestions.
 
@Ruahrc
I Dont have that Lian Li, But I Dont think the cooler you listed would fit well.. The PSU is mounted directly above the CPU. As such I would change that the fan is parallel to the motherboard. If you keep that in mind I dont think there is any that would be too tall..
As far as MiniITX goes you can do most everything you are asking without a doubt. The SG0? series has the most room for a video card, but the Lian Li PC-Q07 has a Full ATX PSU so that you know juice is of no concearn. If your limiting your video to a 5770 & not going above anyway PowerColor Makes a couple 5770's (there based on a 5750 pcb) that fit that case with no modification. You then just have to use either a SSD or a 2.5" HDD (you can get 7200 rpm 2.5" drives from newegg). That or you can start getting the parts & change them out in your current case & wait for either the silverstone Sugo SG07 or the Lian Li PC-Q08 as either of them would fit pretty much any video card, although they are larger cases, but still not to mATX size.
 
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As far as PSU's go, there's the Silverstone ST45SF 450W SFX power supply coming "soon" for those who might need more power with their SG05/06.
 
Ruahrc said:
I went a little higher end on some of the components do you think some of them are worth it? I don't know what is a good mobo so I just found one that had good reviews. Although it is a plus to have a built in IDE slot as it would allow the re-use of my current DVD burner which is IDE. I can re-use my HD if I want to save some money or just use the one you recommended for only $70 more. Or, use the spare 250GB 5400rpm 2.5" HDD I have which would make the system quieter. I put in the Noctua cooler which if I read the Lian Li V350/351 thread here correctly fits in the case with no mods required. Chose a good 80Plus bronze PSU for high quality/efficiency and hopefully quiet operation. Is 650W overkill for this setup, maybe I can go lower?
Click to expand...
The RAM you chose is not needed. You would honestly not notice an iota of real world performance difference between that G.Skill RAM and the RAM I linked to. So save the $15 for something else. The only difference between the XFX card I listed and the one you listed is the HSF. Both designs cools rather well. Up to you if you want to spend the extra $10 for your choice:
$245 - XFX HD-577A-ZNFC Radeon HD 5770 1GB PCI-E Video Card + XFX P1-650X-CAG9 650W Modular PSU

I would not go with the Corsair modular PSU since the XFX modular PSU is just as good as it yet is $20 cheaper. Combined with the additional $25 in savings by getting the XFX PSU with the XGX HD 5770 cards, very very very little reason to go with the Corsair. You could make do with a smaller amperage/wattage PSU BUT there aren't any lower wattage and MODULAR PSUs worth buying as they're either of too low quality, too high of a price, or a combination of both. So in other words, at least on Newegg, there's aren't any lower wattage modular PSUs with the right best bang for the buck value.

And before someone chimes in about OCZ, no, OCZ's ModXStream Pro PSUs are not of good quality and are not worth buying even for a budget PC.

I would not recommend using any of those drives as those would be too slow to the point where you might actually not notice a performance difference between the new setups and your old 939 setup. So spend the money for a faster drive. They're worth every penny. If you go with the PSU + GPU combo deals linked above and go with the RAM I recommended, you should have enough to cover the costs of a new hard drive.

Ruahrc said:
The ITX case you put up I had seen before it looks pretty slick with the one big 120mm fan in it- is that 300W PSU sufficient to power these internals? Makes the 650W I specced out seem way too high. How quiet are those cases you recommended?
Click to expand...
That 300W PSU will be enough for the components I listed BUT it will be pushing it to the limit. As mentioned earlier, with normal ATX PSUs, the 650W PSUs mentioned in this thread so far have the best bang for the buck value out there. Lower wattage modular PSUs are of either too low quality, too high of a price or a combination of both. THose cases can be quiet with the right fans.
 
Danny Bui said:
That 300W PSU will be enough for the components I listed BUT it will be pushing it to the limit. As mentioned earlier, with normal ATX PSUs, the 650W PSUs mentioned in this thread so far have the best bang for the buck value out there. Lower wattage modular PSUs are of either too low quality, too high of a price or a combination of both. THose cases can be quiet with the right fans.
Click to expand...

From what I have seen in these forums, The PSU is more than capable of handling a 750 + 5770. Heck it would appear that some peeps even use a 5850 with it.
Which brings me to the next point: why a 650W PSU? if you don't run dual GFX and you use 2 components with very low consumption (especially at idle), 400 to 500W should be enough (especially when it can be run by a 300W SFX PSU).
 
I think one benefit of those PSUs is that they are modular, which really helps with cabling particularly in a SFF case. I think it is difficult for some reason to find a modular PSU that is lower wattage?

The other argument is that if the total power draw of the system is only around 300W at max, the PSU will be running around 50% load which typically results in it being at the peak of its efficiency curve? Less heat and thus lower temps and less noise? I'm assuming that a 650W PSU being loaded to 300W is producing less heat than a 300W PSU running at 100% capacity?

I guess if you can find a good modular PSU that is only 400-450W I'd be all for that.

With the larger PSU, upgrading down the line would be less of an issue where you would have that spare power reserve already.

Re: the Noctua cooler- I see the potential issues but I wonder. On the one hand, yeah it's really tall and almost buts up against the bottom of the PSU (in fact the pics I have seen it blocks partof the air access to the PSU fan, lowering that fan's efficiency). But also, if you take into consideration the airflow design of the case, would it not be a good cooler? Since the airflow is designed to be very front>back heavy, and with the 2 120mm fans in the front pushing air right at the cooler, keeping all the airflow parallel and through the case might be good? Whereas if you had a different cooler where the fan was parallel to the mobo, it would disrupt the airflow patten in the case by either sucking it down from the small gap between the cooler and the PSU, or blowing it up at the PSU (which might not be a bad setup either)? I am pretty sure there is a Noctua cooler that uses a 120mm fan mounted parallel to the mobo right?

I guess I have to make a philosophical decision on whether or not I want to go as small as possible, with some compromises, or if I want to move back up the size scale a little to give me more room (better cooling) and more flexibility as far as future upgrades or different components go (still thinking about putting in a discrete sound card). At the outset you could tell I was leaning towards getting something that was small like my current Shuttle. Now I think I have almost started to lean towards the larger mATX format. The way I see it- I can put in some good really quiet 120mm fans, and with the components I'm looking at being pretty cool as far as TDP, I could probably even get away with disabling one of the 2 120mm fans in the front, and maybe even the 80mm fan in the back. That would leave me with potentially 1 120mm in the front, 1 120mm on the CPU (or a 92mm), 1 120mm fan on the PSU, and then the graphics card cooler.

Here's a question. Look at this picture it's of my desk. The space I have set there where the Shuttle sits is 11.25" wide by say 15 tall by say 24" deep (the back of it is wide open for exhaust ventilation, the area is basically a tunnel). The Lian Li V351 is 11" wide. That means it barely fits in that cubby. Aside from the obvious problem of the oprical drive tray inaccesibility, do you think it will pose a problem with regards to cooling? I'm not exactly sure either way because although it's a tight fit, it seems like the V351's airflow depends almost purely on front>back (I'm not sure the side vents are contributing anything meaningful) and since those two are open, there should not be much problem?

Deskoptions3.jpg
 
NichoTL said:
From what I have seen in these forums, The PSU is more than capable of handling a 750 + 5770. Heck it would appear that some peeps even use a 5850 with it.
Which brings me to the next point: why a 650W PSU? if you don't run dual GFX and you use 2 components with very low consumption (especially at idle), 400 to 500W should be enough (especially when it can be run by a 300W SFX PSU).
Click to expand...
Read the quote you just quoted. That's why I recommended the 650W PSU.

Ruahrc said:
Here's a question. Look at this picture it's of my desk. The space I have set there where the Shuttle sits is 11.25" wide by say 15 tall by say 24" deep (the back of it is wide open for exhaust ventilation, the area is basically a tunnel). The Lian Li V351 is 11" wide. That means it barely fits in that cubby. Aside from the obvious problem of the oprical drive tray inaccesibility, do you think it will pose a problem with regards to cooling? I'm not exactly sure either way because although it's a tight fit, it seems like the V351's airflow depends almost purely on front>back (I'm not sure the side vents are contributing anything meaningful) and since those two are open, there should not be much problem?
Click to expand...

It might pose a problem to cooling. The side vents do help a bit IIRC.
 
lol.. I myself am going the small as I can route.. But thats just me.. Either way a starting a new build is always fun.
 
For lower wattage modular PSUs, you have the Enermax Modu 425, the Corsair HX450 (rather hard to find), and I thought that Silverstone had one too... There are probably others, but I don't really know.

As for peak wattage: you won't even reach 300W with a 750 and a 5770, unless you overclock the bejesus out of them. And that would be a Furmark+Prime95 kind of peak (which is totally unrealistic as far as real world usage goes). Gaming peak won't even exceed 225-250W, I'd guess.
 
NichoTL said:
For lower wattage modular PSUs, you have the Enermax Modu 425, the Corsair HX450 (rather hard to find), and I thought that Silverstone had one too... There are probably others, but I don't really know.
Click to expand...

Yes those PSUs do exist but unfortunately there are issues:
- The Enermax Modu 425 is barely being sold at most online stores. The few sites that have it are charging about $100 for them, the same price as the XFX 650W Modular PSU I linked to.
- The Corsair 450HX was only released for the European market. Floundered unfortunately so Corsair stopped production.
- The Silverstone ST50EF-Plus 500W PSU, assuming that's the one you're talking about, costs about $100, the same price as the XFX 650W Modular PSU I linked to.

So while there are lower wattage modular PSU, I don't see any reason to buy them if you can get a higher wattage modular PSU for the same price.
 
Well, I guess the main reason for getting a lower-wattage unit is that with a build like the one he's planning, idle wattage is quite low, so a lower-wattage unit is more likely to be more efficient at that idle wattage. For example my computer idles at about 75W or thereabouts. Which would be 11,5% load on a 650W PSU, where not many of those are efficient. Comparatively it'd be 17,6% of a 425W PSU, or 25% of a 300W PSU.

But if you don't care about that sort of thing much, it doesn't indeed make much of a difference what the wattage is. And of course some higher-wattage PSUs are surprisingly efficient at as low as 10% load.
 
@tvih: Agree 100%

@Danny Bui:
I find it somewhat disappointing that there aren't any proper low-wattage modular PSUs in the market. At the same time I understand why: a lot of people who build their computers are among the enthusiast crowd where 'bigger is better' seems to be the motto. And a lot of the rest are budget builders... I still think there is a nice niche to be filled.
 
NichoTL said:
@Danny Bui:
I find it somewhat disappointing that there aren't any proper low-wattage modular PSUs in the market. At the same time I understand why: a lot of people who build their computers are among the enthusiast crowd where 'bigger is better' seems to be the motto. And a lot of the rest are budget builders... I still think there is a nice niche to be filled.
Click to expand...
In addition, there's also the point in design/production where a quality lower wattage modular PSU isn't that much different than a higher wattage modular PSU. Since it costs about the same to produce a quality lower wattage modular PSU as a quality higher wattage modular PSU and for the reason you noted about the enthusiast crowd, it's quite understandable from that perspective. I mean why build a smaller wattage modular that costs as much as the higher wattage modular PSU that people will more than likely buy?

The prime example of the above is the Corsair 450HX. Despite all the marketing information that a low wattage modular PSU would be a big hit in Europe, the 450HX pretty much tanked.

But yeah I would like to see quality lower wattage modular PSUs on the market that are priced accordingly but unfortunately it probably won't happen. With that said, I'm still waiting for a proper review of the Antec BP550 Plus 550W PSU. It costs $65 here in the states, $35 cheaper than the XFX 650W PSU I linked to. That's a pretty reasonable price if that's a good PSU.
 
I know it sounds crazy, but after reading some reviews I have almost been convinced to buy the HX750W instead. Apparently, the 750, 850, and 1000W HX PSUs from Corsair are using a different manufacturer and design than the 650. And the 750 and 850W PSUs have reviewed extremely well. What really sells me is that the 750/850 have efficiency of 90% across the board. The reviews are showing at 25% load the efficiency was like 92%, 50-100% load is like 89%- a good 5% or so better than the 650W version, probably nearer to 10% at the loads I expect to encounter. If the max draw of the hardware is only going to be around 250W, the PSU will be running at an incredible efficiency. The heat will be almost nil, and the noise/cooling will be accordingly low. There is also the argument that the PSU will be plenty "future proof" for if I decide to up the CPU or GPU or both down the road, or decide to play with some overclocking (not that 650W would be plenty of headroom for that either).

I have very nearly sold myself on the V351 as long as I can convince myself that I won't encounter severe cooling issues given where I want to stick the computer. Seeing's how the components I am likely to pick out are pretty low wattage, I am believing that there is not going to be a huge issue. Will it be ideal? No, but I also don't think it will be substantially worse than if I put the computer on the desk or something where there is better cooling.

I don't intend to piss money away but at the same time remember I'm not always about going the cheapest route possible. Refer to the "doing it properly" remark in my OP. Even if there is a little "feel good" component selection going on, things like a high quality PSU giving 90% efficiency- I am willing to pay a little extra for that. Besides, I look at pics of people's builds here on [H], and what do I see about 80% of the time? Corsair PSUs. If that many people here are getting them, there is certainly something to be said of that.
 
Well, by all accounts the HX750 is an excellent PSU. But I'll say again, while at load its efficiency will be high, at idle it'll be operating at somewhere around 10%, and usually the efficiency of a PSU drops rapidly at under 20% load. I couldn't find the figure for that for this particular PSU though (it's likely to be higher than in many others of the same wattage though). Also at least in my use, my computer operates at very low loads most of the time, and unless you only turn on your computer to play games or do other heavy tasks, I'd assume it's the same for you. Thus the idle power efficiency is pretty much as important as load power efficiency.

Still, it's a great PSU, no doubt, and should serve you well for years regardless of what components you throw at it.
 
Yeah it does sound crazy considering that you're ignoring two key factors: Your $1000 budget and the fact that you'll want/need a new drive. If you go with the build list in Post #10 + the Corsair 750HX, the total comes out to $961. But since you've mentioned quite a few times that you want to do this setup "properly", then up your budget so that it can fit the WD 640GB drive I linked to earlier as well as the 750HX.

The 650HX is built by Seasonic whereas the 750HX, 850HX, and 1000HX are built by CWT. However the 750HX and 850HX are based on a different platform than the 1000HX. The XFX PSU is built by Seasonic.

I have a Corsair PSU myself and I love it. I'm also using Corsair PSUs in at least a dozen other builds. With that said, the efficiency difference isn't worth it IMO to justify the added costs for a Corsair 750HX or 650HX over the XFX 650W PSU I linked to above. It's only a few % behind the Corsair 850HX in terms of efficiency. IMO, in this case and with that current deal in mind, a Corsair PSU would not be "doing it properly". With that said, if you have money to spend, go for it. The only real con is the higher cost.
 
tvih said:
Also at least in my use, my computer operates at very low loads most of the time, and unless you only turn on your computer to play games or do other heavy tasks, I'd assume it's the same for you. Thus the idle power efficiency is pretty much as important as load power efficiency.
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My PC usage does tend to follow this pretty closely. As I mentioned my "main" computer is a Macbook pro laptop, and the only thing I do on PCs nowadays is play games. And since I only game on PC's, I only really turn it on when I intend to game. Your comments are good thinking points though.

Danny Bui said:
Yeah it does sound crazy considering that you're ignoring two key factors: Your $1000 budget and the fact that you'll want/need a new drive. If you go with the build list in Post #10 + the Corsair 750HX, the total comes out to $961. But since you've mentioned quite a few times that you want to do this setup "properly", then up your budget so that it can fit the WD 640GB drive I linked to earlier as well as the 750HX.
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I think you are misunderstanding my stated "$1000" budget. In my OP I tried to explain that it's not a certain dollar figure I need to stay under, rather I want to know how much it is going to cost to get the optimum components I want. Therefore, the $1000 budget is not necessarily a key factor. It's just a (very) rough guideline on what I figure I could talk myself into spending on the project. If I decide I want a little bit more power, this or that, and end up at $1200 or $1300, it's not the end of the world. I'm not rich by any means but I'm definitely past the unemployed highschooler stage.

I'm not dying to buy new hardware right this moment either (sometimes I am tempted to just put in an order from Newegg, other times I think I should wait it out) and therefore any particular "deal" on hardware may not even be applicable by the time I am ready to purchase.

BTW, is having a fast HD is not totally necessary for performance anyways? In a general usage scenario, yes absolutely a faster HD will make things seem a lot faster than my current S939 system. But, like I said I don't intend to do anything on the computer other than game. The computer I use for everything else is a MBP with a fast SSD and it screams. So, aside from booting times, and perhaps launching the game or loading levels, I'm not sure a fast HD is going to really benefit me that much? I may go for a new HD just because I might be able to take advantage of the extra capacity, but I'm not convinced I will be throttled in gaming performance by HD speed.

Ruahrc
 
Ruahrc said:
BTW, is having a fast HD is not totally necessary for performance anyways? In a general usage scenario, yes absolutely a faster HD will make things seem a lot faster than my current S939 system. But, like I said I don't intend to do anything on the computer other than game. The computer I use for everything else is a MBP with a fast SSD and it screams. So, aside from booting times, and perhaps launching the game or loading levels, I'm not sure a fast HD is going to really benefit me that much? I may go for a new HD just because I might be able to take advantage of the extra capacity, but I'm not convinced I will be throttled in gaming performance by HD speed.
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Well the faster booting times, better multi-tasking performance and faster game launch and loading is the primary reason why I'm pushing for a new HDD in your case. I personally made the move from a old 160GB Seagate drive to a WD 640GB Blue drive. The decreased load times was well worth the $70. Didn't see an increase in FPS per se but games definitely felt a bit smoother.
 
Ruahrc said:
I am tempted to lean towards the Lian Li V351b as I like the aesthetics. mATX might give me more room for cooling but it needs to be quiet! Part of the reason I went Shuttle with my current PC was that they were incredibly quiet for the power they had. It seems nowadays the modern Shuttles (like the SX58H7) can't handle the heat load of an i7 and a powerful graphics card without getting too loud. As much as I LOVE the compactness of the ST20G5, maybe I have to concede for better cooling and what would hopefully be a quieter case. After going SFF, quiet computers and small size are very important to me. I will never use a full size computer again! :)
Ruahrc
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You should check out Da Box. It handles any heat dissipation requirement you might have, it's compact, sturdy, 100% aluminum.
The next step is to go to Mini ITX...
 
That Da Box, the dimensions on the website are 8.6x11.4x14.6. I'm assuming that's 8.6 high, 11.4 wide, and 14.6 deep? If so, it's going to be too wide to fit inside my desk space as it's only 11.25" wide.

Ruahrc
 
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