Doom 3: id vs. Creative

D

Defective

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Messages
1,911
Alright guys, what do you think of this issue? Is Creative trying to expoit a possibly questionable patent? Is Carmack out of line is his comments about Creative?

My feeling is that Creative is pushing a technology that is on a shakey patent and Carmack is calling them on it. Creative has monopolistic tendencies and I am not suprised to see them try to throw their weight around.

I am sure alot of you have a much more informed opinion on this than I do. I havent been able to do alot of research on it. I just have what I have read from the blurbs from HardOCP and Slashdot.
 
If its legit, then fine. If they're trying to pull some crap.. F*CK EM!
 
theNoid said:
If its legit, then fine. If they're trying to pull some crap.. F*CK EM!
Click to expand...

Regardless of what they are trying to do, they are exploiting a company that helps keep them in buisness, meaning people who buy games also buy their hardware. On top of that they are laying claim to ideas. This is no invention, its a technique of programming. Getting a pantent on this is like getting a patent on the quadratic formula (took that from Ars :p ).
 
Pardon me for being a moron, but nothing in the article jester1176 was decent enough to link makes it clear to me WTF you are posting about. So explain what seems to be the problem so I can give a reasonable answer.

RagManX
 
although I hate creative, their response made sense. Id should have used EAX. By far, the best sounding games all have EAX. Another point is that, creative could have sued ID's ass for using their method. Or worse, they could have made them take it out. If you think about it, creative was pretty nice about it.. All they wanted in return is for anyone using the doom 3 engine in the future, they must use EAX.
 
mjz_5 said:
although I hate creative, their response made sense. Id should have used EAX. By far, the best sounding games all have EAX. Another point is that, creative could have sued ID's ass for using their method. Or worse, they could have made them take it out. If you think about it, creative was pretty nice about it.. All they wanted in return is for anyone using the doom 3 engine in the future, they must use EAX.
Click to expand...

EAX is only in games before because there wasn't evough processing power to do all the stuff Carmack wanted to do. A while back Carmack posted as to why EAX wouldn't be in the game, and he said it was because now his method allows him to do what he wants with the sound, not just add crappy reverb effects.

I don't think the whole way Creative did this was the thing that is making everyone so upset. Its the fact that they have had this pattent (which is questionable if they should even have it in the first place) since 1999. Over a year ago Carmack posted on different forums about how he was doing the lighting, but only now does creative go ahead and tell them to change it. The reason they waited so long is because they know that iD would not want to delay the game further and just give in. If they had come to Carmack a year ago, he probaly would have fought it.

So it comes down to timing. They just used some corporate BS and timing to force iD to do what they wanted.
 
What the hell does a sound card company have to do with game shadowing technology?
 
If anyone wants to sum up the whole issue for me, that'd be great, 'cause I have no idea what's going on.
 
My issue with Creative is a tad bit different. 1) this 'representative' of the company has a huge head. Quite frankly I dont think Creative has the best available PC audio...I still think in many ways even old turtle beach cards sound better.

and 2) he obviously hasnt done his research well.
"However, as can be seen from this example Creative created a graphics technique in 1999 and despite the pace of graphics development it is still applicable 5 years later. The same cannot be said for game engines - no matter how good they are when they first launch"."

Someone tell me I'm wrong when I say halflife was made from a modified Quake 1 engine.




This would be much easier for me to swallow if he just said "you know, we didnt realize this was used in doom3 early on in its development and therefor didnt say anything. Because of our need to pretect our property though, we do need to do something about it now" and left it at that.
 
heyheyhey said:
If anyone wants to sum up the whole issue for me, that'd be great, 'cause I have no idea what's going on.
Click to expand...

Basically Creative got a patent on some shadowing techniques in 1999. The fact that they were able to patent a technique is questionable but none the less they have it now.

Than about a year ago Carmack came out and said he would be using said technology in Doom 3, not knowing that Creative has a patent on it. At this point he also has said that EAX would not be in Doom 3 because he like his method much better and it give better sound quality. At this point Creative could have said "hey, we have a patent" and either Carmack could have fought it or not.

But insted Creative waited till the week before the game is set to be released to say anything knowing full well that iD would not want to delay the game to fight it. So Creative can make demands like iD would have to put EAX into future versions of the game.

So basically it comes down to Creative blackmailing iD by waiting till the week before the game was released. This has a lot of people in an uproar about two things. First is the way Creative did this. Secondly is that should they even be allowed to get a pattent on an idea for programming techniques.
 
The thing that pisses me off about the whole situation is that Creative sound cards are inferior in their positional audio than the old Aureal2 card that I wish I could still use, and then claim to be superior and show off their PhDs. Who cares.

My Aureal2 card wiped the floor with Creative's EAX implementation.

I will never, EVER buy another Creative product.

So stick THAT in your craw Creative, and chew on that.
 
Devin said:
This would be much easier for me to swallow if he just said "you know, we didnt realize this was used in doom3 early on in its development and therefor didnt say anything. Because of our need to pretect our property though, we do need to do something about it now" and left it at that.
Click to expand...

Even that would be lame, because if Creative did care enough about the technology and not just to get EAX into Doom III, then they would've been on top of this. Carmack's Reverse (what the technique is commonly known as) was discussed in length on multiple high-profile sites among developers and those with a high degre of interest in development. Many articles and papers were written about it during 2000 and to NOT notice it would be akin to a stock broker not reading the Wall Street Journal. Simply knowing about Doom III and knowing it would have volumetric shadowing should've warranted some interest at Creative back in 2000.
 
actually, the debate isnt that creative shouldn't have gotten a patent on software. theres nothing wrong with that. its that there was PRIOR art, and one of the persons who displayed this prior art in public admitted that creative filed this patent after he publically discussed the technique.
so the whole deal is that creative filed a patent on something known as public knowledge.
then creative blackmails ID a week before the game hits shelves.

For those of you who didn't know, this technique is named Carmacks reverse. After JC, the person who actually implemented and finished this technique. Funny how this algorithm is named after him, but he is being extorted on its use?
GG Creative, i hope you rot in hell.

On a side note, I'm gonna go Donate some money to the EFF:
http://www.eff.org/patent/
 
1: every game that i have that uses EAX doesn't use it properly or is flat out broken. (BF-V)

2: This is like Al Gore stating that he created the Internet. Creative is saying that they have all the patents on inovation and that they walk on water. (BS big time)

3: There just pissed that a game as great as this doesn't have the EAX logo on the box and that everyone except them are morons when it come to sound.

4: Carmack and ID are going to make soooo much moolah on this game that they just gave in and said "Yeah whatever" stick the silly logo on the box and put an EAX button in the config screen (people wont use it anyways (remember it's probably broken)).

5: did i mention that EAX is usualy broken in the games that it comes in. Or at least makes no significant difference in the sound at all.
 
reflex33 said:
Basically Creative got a patent on some shadowing techniques in 1999. The fact that they were able to patent a technique is questionable but none the less they have it now.

.......
Click to expand...
Thank you, I had no idea wtf was going on. I sounded like a mutual deal but I guess it was a sour deal that was made to sound positive.
 
Everquest 2 has options for EAX 2, 3 and 4. To be honest, I can't tell a bloody difference between any of them and Dolby Surround in that game.


EDIT: If they can patent the human gene pool, they might as well patent "shadowing techniques" or whatever buzz word it is. Not enough people give a shit anyway, so you might as well fork over money for the crap that is the patent system.
 
I wish Carmack had stood on principle & told Creative, "Stuff it. So sue me.", but it's his $ to lose, not mine.
 
unit,

nice job on violating your nda. :p

it's possible that they haven't finished the eax implimentation in the game since it's still yet to be released.

also, skull, if the eax is broken in a game, it's not creative's fault. blame that on the developer. it's up to them how they impliment EAX, not creative's.
 
I highly respect Carmack and what he has done. This man is the one to thank for most of the graphic advancements we have seen in games. From what I have read... Carmack and his team figured out a way to do this using minimal CPU processes... now I currently have an Audigy LS... and you have to think about this from his point of view.... He loves games, and he wants his game to be incredible on the highest percentage of machines there is... and having a sound card is a variable he didn't want to work with... So he is running it through the CPU and from what I've read its simply amazing. I think Creative should shut their mouth and make better cards and give Carmack a REASON to use their stuff before they go complain.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top