Engineering Education Myths Busted by Research

Terry Olaes

Terry Olaes

I Used to be the [H] News Guy
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
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“Engineering majors have a higher drop out rate compared to other majors.” BUSTED. “Men perform better than women in engineering programs.” BUSTED. A recent study that tapped into a massive database of 70K engineering students provided evidence that popped these long held myths.

Research also showed few students switch to engineering from other majors, indicating a potential strategy for increasing the number of U.S. engineering graduates, Ohland said. “A huge message in these findings is that engineering students are amazingly like those in other disciplines, but we need to do more to attract students to engineering programs,” he said.
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i'm a phd student in physics, and part of our training (read: servitude) is to teach labs. The engineering students are by far the worst to teach. They think they know everything (they know nothing) and believe the lab to be beneath them.

They are incapable of even basic calculus - stuff you learn in the first semester. It's really quite pathetic, the state of our so called "engineers". Most of these fuckwits couldn't engineer their way out of a paper sack.


we need LESS engineers who actually give a fuck about learning and doing their job. Not more asshats that use college as an excuse to party until they don't even have 2 brain cells left.
 
spintroniX said:
i'm a phd student in physics, and part of our training (read: servitude) is to teach labs. The engineering students are by far the worst to teach. They think they know everything (they know nothing) and believe the lab to be beneath them.

They are incapable of even basic calculus - stuff you learn in the first semester. It's really quite pathetic, the state of our so called "engineers". Most of these fuckwits couldn't engineer their way out of a paper sack.


we need LESS engineers who actually give a fuck about learning and doing their job. Not more asshats that use college as an excuse to party until they don't even have 2 brain cells left.
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:rolleyes:

Thats funny cause when I was taking my physics 2 labs the aide didn't know anything and actually came to my group to find out how to do the experiments. ( I have a BA in Computer Engineering. ) So lets just say there are stupid people all over the place and not make such an extreme over generalization.
 
Would that be a BS in Computer Engineering? ;)

Why such hate between the science people? We need to unite in bitching about the business and arts students who are the true party people.
 
spintroniX said:
i'm a phd student in physics, and part of our training (read: servitude) is to teach labs. The engineering students are by far the worst to teach. They think they know everything (they know nothing) and believe the lab to be beneath them.

They are incapable of even basic calculus - stuff you learn in the first semester. It's really quite pathetic, the state of our so called "engineers". Most of these fuckwits couldn't engineer their way out of a paper sack.


we need LESS engineers who actually give a fuck about learning and doing their job. Not more asshats that use college as an excuse to party until they don't even have 2 brain cells left.
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At my university, and I'm guessing most universities as well, Physics I and II labs are courses taken in the first two semesters engineers, while physics majors tend to take those courses in their Sophomore or Junior year, so your comparison is pretty bogus.

Not to mention that an anecdotal sampling like that is pretty darn unscientific, which is very disappointing coming from someone who got their PHD in physics.

The real difference between science and engineering degrees is the pace at which each degree is taught. Engineers are given much more information much quicker, which makes the undergrad degree much more rigorous for engineers. The difference is that an engineering degree is viable at a bachelor level, while a science major generally has to go for a PHD to have any serious career aspirations. As an engineering student I'm beginning to realize that a more relaxed, extended period of learning is probably more effective means of teaching core concepts.

So ultimately the difference between the two degree boils down to this: At a bachelor's level, engineers need to know both the science and tools to work in his field. At the same level, science students have mostly been prepared for learning higher concepts at the master's and doctorate level, and will round out their professional ability during their doctorate and post-doc work. An engineer continues to add to their knowledge and skill-set at the master's and doctorate levels, but those levels are not required for their professional viability.

In the end neither degree is really better than the other. They both fill slightly different, if overlapping roles, but ultimately it will come down to the quality of the school and the capability of the student.
 
I think one reason physics or chem students tend to get looked down on is that some of them have no real aspirations beyond their BS degree, and that level of achievement is fairly easy compared to a BS degree in engineering at most universities. However, these students are ultimately irrelevant.
 
Obi_Kwiet said:
At my university, and I'm guessing most universities as well, Physics I and II labs are courses taken in the first two semesters engineers, while physics majors tend to take those courses in their Sophomore or Junior year, so your comparison is pretty bogus.

Not to mention that an anecdotal sampling like that is pretty darn unscientific, which is very disappointing coming from someone who got their PHD in physics.

The real difference between science and engineering degrees is the pace at which each degree is taught. Engineers are given much more information much quicker, which makes the undergrad degree much more rigorous for engineers. The difference is that an engineering degree is viable at a bachelor level, while a science major generally has to go for a PHD to have any serious career aspirations. As an engineering student I'm beginning to realize that a more relaxed, extended period of learning is probably more effective means of teaching core concepts.

So ultimately the difference between the two degree boils down to this: At a bachelor's level, engineers need to know both the science and tools to work in his field. At the same level, science students have mostly been prepared for learning higher concepts at the master's and doctorate level, and will round out their professional ability during their doctorate and post-doc work. An engineer continues to add to their knowledge and skill-set at the master's and doctorate levels, but those levels are not required for their professional viability.

In the end neither degree is really better than the other. They both fill slightly different, if overlapping roles, but ultimately it will come down to the quality of the school and the capability of the student.
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I think you're right. Engineering majors with a BS are probably a little more able to get a better, higher paying job with just a BS. But you certainly cannot say that you cannot get a good science job with just BS in Geology (Environmental remediation industries hire Geology majors right out of college), Biology, or Chemistry. The truth is that both scientists and engineers are usually the brightest of all the students in a university, and getting a job with a degree having anything to do with the sciences is relatively easy.

I myself have a BS in Geology, and am currently finishing my MS in Geology. My own field is on the more applied and practical side of the pure sciences, and as such, geology majors can find jobs with a BS. I was friends with several engineering majors in college (and yes I do agree that engineering majors can be a bit arrogant.... but all intelligent people are), and boy did they bust their asses. I took a lot of the same classes, and I did bust my ass too, but a lot of them couldn't finish in 4 years. I, however, managed it. I think that's the difference. They need to fit in the science stuff AND the applied stuff all in a BS degree. It's a lot.

In most cases, this is an advantage, but I recently had a discussion with the owner of an environmental engineering company out of Indianapolis who told me that he prefers hiring geologists over engineers for the same job position because geologists tend to have a better grasp of the fundamental concepts governing natural processes.
 
Obi_Kwiet said:
I think one reason physics or chem students tend to get looked down on is that some of them have no real aspirations beyond their BS degree, and that level of achievement is fairly easy compared to a BS degree in engineering at most universities. However, these students are ultimately irrelevant.
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Physics majors score highest on national IQ tests, and there are plenty of entry-level Chemistry jobs
 
Atheist said:
Would that be a BS in Computer Engineering? ;)

Why such hate between the science people? We need to unite in bitching about the business and arts students who are the true party people.
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:eek:

Glad the typo police could make it to the thread. It’s not as if the 'A' and 'S' are next to each other on the keyboard... Oh wait they are never mind.

Your right the people of science should stick together and go after people that think they need to police the English on forums. Maybe we should start with someone in this thread.. :D
 
The moment I read the title of that article, I knew exactly who was involved in the research. I've worked with Dr. Ohland, he's a really nice guy.
 
spintroniX

I see that attitude with most folks who have labs/classes that are a requirement for graduation but are not part of their core study. I taught as an adjunct professor of Physics at UNC for a semester between jobs ... a long immigration problem story. Obi_Kwiet might have something too in what he says. I remember having to do a couple of management courses in my chemistry degree ... they were a joke because they were elementary courses while the other courses taken in my second year at university included advanced quantum mechanics and statistical thermodynamics.


Matthew_Krysiak

Lab aides usually do that so that they know the course of experiments and what is required of the students with respect to grading etc. I had to do it so I knew the experiments that would take place, I then attended demonstrations to work through the experiments. The hardest part for me was the grading as the UK operates a bottom up rather than top down grading system, so that the student gains points for things done right rather than subtracted for things not done correctly.


Darnell

"Scientists vs Engineers, the battle rages on! "

Yeah, I really need to see a shrink :) The battle rages in my head all the time. I have a B.Sc. in Chemistry, a Ph.D. in Polymer Physics and Chemistry and have worked for 8 years combining my science background and engineering. I think what I do now could be called Chemical Engineering and I bring a hefty dollop of Chemistry into it ... which is something my Engineering buddies know little about.


Obi_Kwiet

I don't think that engineering degrees are better or more rigorous than physical science degrees. However, I am at a disadvantage as I did not study in this country so I do not know for sure. I know that in the UK Chemistry and Physics are the hardest degrees and that is why so many departments have been closing because of lack of interest in the courses. As a freshman we studied quantum mechanics, and I know that is enough to put people off, we lost a third of our people after that physical chemistry course! We did not study calculus at university because we studied that in our A-levels (school leaving age is 16 in the UK, A-levels are the matriculation standard for university entrance for students between the ages of 16-18) including my nemesis of the time ... calculus of trigonometric functions. Another difference I noted was that the Physics courses (the basic ones) in the US I taught were the same experiments I did at 16 in A-level physics.

The advantage of the UK system is getting US PhD level (or more) teaching in a BSc course. The disadvantage is being made to make the decision of your career life at 18 or even 16, since the A-levels are limited to 4 or 5 subjects. If I knew then what I know now I would have gone into medicine ... far more lucrative and stable.

I do agree for sure that BS Engineers (I am talking about Science rather than Computing here) have far better opportunities than BS, MS or even PhD Scientists and I am sure that this is perhaps more to do with the state of research in the US (and UK) than any difference in quality. Scientists are in little demand (except in bio fields ... in my opinion not always a true science :eek:, ok, in my opinion not much of it is real science) because there is little fundamental research occurring while engineers are always required while manufacturing still exists, even if only to babysit a plant (not a biological one) or make incremental changes to an existing process to save a dime.

Anyways, I think I am going off on one!
 
azides said:
Matthew_Krysiak

Lab aides usually do that so that they know the course of experiments and what is required of the students with respect to grading etc. I had to do it so I knew the experiments that would take place, I then attended demonstrations to work through the experiments. The hardest part for me was the grading as the UK operates a bottom up rather than top down grading system, so that the student gains points for things done right rather than subtracted for things not done correctly.

...

I do agree for sure that BS Engineers (I am talking about Science rather than Computing here) have far better opportunities than BS, MS or even PhD Scientists and I am sure that this is perhaps more to do with the state of research in the US (and UK) than any difference in quality. Scientists are in little demand (except in bio fields ... in my opinion not always a true science :eek:, ok, in my opinion not much of it is real science) because there is little fundamental research occurring while engineers are always required while manufacturing still exists, even if only to babysit a plant (not a biological one) or make incremental changes to an existing process to save a dime.
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Nope, sorry not buying it. This TA wasn't that smart. She repeatedly came to our group to see how we got the lab working and then would go back to the other groups in the lab and try and make their results like ours. Yes she would try, she didn't give the group hints she would do it herself. Oh well like I said there are stupid people every where.

...

As far as the Engineer vs. Scientist goes: My understanding as it relates to EE/CS is that a lot of companies would higher EEs to do programming work (as opposed to CSs) because in general EEs had better problem solving skill. Maybe because in the classes they got more experience with real problems... Maybe it was just the type of person attracted to EE vs. CS... IDK Then again I will admit I originally started out as a EE major so that could just be bias rumors.

BTW: Computer Engineering is a Bachelor of Science degree. It is actually kind of funny because CE is a hybrid of EE and CS so I am also fighting myself but all in one degree. ;)
 
Matthew_Krysiak

I guess every TA is different. This is an individual case you are reporting on.

I don't know anything about EE vs CS vs CE. I can see where they would interface and where a CE might have an advantage. EE's appear to be very sought after, CS seem ten-a-penny, CE ... i do not know, as you say it is a hybrid, and probably better for it if your bias is towards electronics as applied to computation. The computing world is a very different beast compared to my world ...so I do not know much!!! Really, I do not know anything about computing employment!

I come to [H] to read up on what I might be interested in next with respect to my computer experience. I do not program now, I did some on my Spectrum (~Commodore 64) when I was younger, some BBC basic way back when! Have come to look on info with respect to cooling/overclocking in the past especially peltier as I have done that, trying to get more out of DX4-120, K6-2, PIII etc..

Right now, I do not game as I have no time, but look here to get some info on SSD as I have some scientific programs that take forever to load, swap, save etc. I am eagerly awaiting the next gen Intel offerings! Hoping that SSD prices come down significantly!
 
I'm just wondering why my friend calls himself a Software Engineer and he has never set foot in the Engineering school....hmmmm :rolleyes:;):D

and BTW their CS (the S is for Science!) degree is 4 years, all our engineering undergrad majors are 5 :p
 
I'm a network engineer so this is completely lost on me. We don't really go to school. I guess some do. About the only classes I go to are when my company buys something and sends me to instructional courses so I can come back and say yes or no on the product and then get it into production on the network.
 
Matthew_Krysiak said:
:eek:

Glad the typo police could make it to the thread. It’s not as if the 'A' and 'S' are next to each other on the keyboard... Oh wait they are never mind.

Your right the people of science should stick together and go after people that think they need to police the English on forums. Maybe we should start with someone in this thread.. :D
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I assume you meant the contraction "you're" (so, not even a typo...)

The 'E' isn't anywhere near the ', but you still missed both... ;)

Sorry, I just love you guys at the [H]! :D
 
azides said:
I do agree for sure that BS Engineers (I am talking about Science rather than Computing here) have far better opportunities than BS, MS or even PhD Scientists and I am sure that this is perhaps more to do with the state of research in the US (and UK) than any difference in quality. Scientists are in little demand (except in bio fields ... in my opinion not always a true science :eek:, ok, in my opinion not much of it is real science) because there is little fundamental research occurring while engineers are always required while manufacturing still exists, even if only to babysit a plant (not a biological one) or make incremental changes to an existing process to save a dime.

Anyways, I think I am going off on one!
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:eek: Biology not a true science!? What! Have you ever had a vaccination? What about antibiotics? All of medical science is based off of Biology! There is a LOT of biological research happening right now: Everything from studying the cultures of yeasts for a beer company to deciphering the genomes of major viruses to studying the effects of overfishing on the Atlantic Cod population constitutes legitimate scientific research. And when you add the paleotnological aspect to it, there's a whole world of research! I myself study Cretaceous planktonic foraminifera for the purposes of biostratigraphic correlation. Basically, you can tell the age of a rock based on the assemblage of micro-organisms preserved in the sedimentary record. Oil companies prize this information, and lead a lot of biological investigation.

We're all friends here, science bretheren! Let's stop arguing and appreciate the fact that science is the pinnacle of human endeavors.
 
The fact that 93% of engineering graduates began their college education as an engineering major doesn't surprise me.

I'm (about to be) a second year ME student. If I decided after my second year that I wanted to switch to some other type of engineering I would basically be a freshman again. Sure, you spend your first semester or two doing general courses like chem, physics, and calculus... But you still get down to specifics relatively quickly. So it makes sense that for non-engineers it would be an even more daunting task to try and transfer in.

Sure, being in school for more than four years to get your BA is not the end of the world. I enjoy the learning process and still have a long way to go before I feel like I'm ready to start any kind of career. But for students like myself who survive almost 100% on student loans - every additional semester it takes for me to graduate creates a bigger heap of debt to worry about. So I would be reluctant to switch majors - though for now I'm quite happy with my choice.
 
npoczynek said:
The fact that 93% of engineering graduates began their college education as an engineering major doesn't surprise me.
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Me neither. People usually transfer because what they took is too hard... Not exactly a long list of programs that could transfer into Eng. for relief.
 
ordovician said:
I think you're right. Engineering majors with a BS are probably a little more able to get a better, higher paying job with just a BS. But you certainly cannot say that you cannot get a good science job with just BS in Geology (Environmental remediation industries hire Geology majors right out of college), Biology, or Chemistry. The truth is that both scientists and engineers are usually the brightest of all the students in a university, and getting a job with a degree having anything to do with the sciences is relatively easy.

I myself have a BS in Geology, and am currently finishing my MS in Geology. My own field is on the more applied and practical side of the pure sciences, and as such, geology majors can find jobs with a BS. I was friends with several engineering majors in college (and yes I do agree that engineering majors can be a bit arrogant.... but all intelligent people are), and boy did they bust their asses. I took a lot of the same classes, and I did bust my ass too, but a lot of them couldn't finish in 4 years. I, however, managed it. I think that's the difference. They need to fit in the science stuff AND the applied stuff all in a BS degree. It's a lot.

In most cases, this is an advantage, but I recently had a discussion with the owner of an environmental engineering company out of Indianapolis who told me that he prefers hiring geologists over engineers for the same job position because geologists tend to have a better grasp of the fundamental concepts governing natural processes.
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I would agree that geologists are probably an exception, possibly due to the fact that there aren't any engineering majors that really adequately overlap it.
 
Well when I was in grad school (yeah also Physics as a slave... ok not really they gave me free tuition and a pay check, I just had to teach a couple lab courses), I did notice two groups that had a serious case of formulitis were the engineering and math majors, not really caring terribly much about the experiment, or the fact that it didn't come out perfect (yet their data seemed to be fudged that way *sigh*). Not saying all of them were like that but other than the obvious "screw ups" they were the ones that stuck out the most.

I even thought about going back for an engineering degree simply to "pad my resume" plus having the math and physics background should be easy, although having talked with engineers I do know there's a whole different thought process. In the end though, I decided the cost of going back was not appealing (hell tuition nearly doubled since I graduated), plus I REALLY like being on the other side of the classroom (I teach physics and astronomy now), and I really like not having to do homework :)
 
Nemesis999 said:
Me neither. People usually transfer because what they took is too hard... Not exactly a long list of programs that could transfer into Eng. for relief.
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I actually started college as an Environmental Science major and transfered into Chemical Engineering.

After my first semester I got a job with the Maine Department of Environmental Protection as an intern and after speaking with a bunch of environmental professionals I discovered quickly that they don't get paid shit. I quickly decided to switch into a major where I can get a high paying job right out of college (I made more money my first year out of college than most of the environmental specialists at the MDEP do per year after 20 years of work).

Besides, as a chemical engineer, I dare say I have more impact on protecting the environment than any of the environmental people.

One of the major problems today are people that go to college and get a useless degree (English, Art History, History, Marine Biology). There really needs to be better counciling of high school graduates so that they realize what their job prospects are (if any) with whatever degree they want to pursue. The colleges won't do it because if they did the Art History professors (among others) would be out of a job (about the only job you can get with that degree).
 
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