Ex Hardcore Enthusiast needs a new rig!

J

joecuddles

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
1,103
Man it's been a long time since I've been here! Years ago I used to be hardcore into benching, OCing and all things PC related back when SLI was just a dream...

I'm looking to build a new PC, but I've run into a problem. I know nothing about anything anymore! I don't know anything about dual core, quad core, tri core processors or DDR2/3 RAM or PCI-E (not much to know I guess). As I was trying to put together a system, I realized I needed some help from those who know what's up.

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Gaming, Photoshop, 12 tabling PokerStars, pretty much some of everything.

2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
Looking around $1,000-$1,500 CAD. Including Tax and Shipping.

3) Where do you live?
Ontario, Canada.

4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. Please be very specific.
Things I'm aiming for:
  • I'm totally lost when it comes to CPU's. I don't know if I want a quad core, or dual core, or what. Absolutely clueless.
  • 8GB RAM
  • 1TB HDD
  • 512MB+ Video Card (GTX 275 seems to be perfect)
  • 23" Widescreen monitor
  • No need for 5.1 or anything, 2.1 suits me fine (no space for rear speakers :() - Must have a headphone jack!
  • No need for wi-fi, ethernet ftw.
  • Using old Mouse/Keyboard. Currently have a 500W PSU I think... OCZ StealthXtreme, not sure if that's beefy enough.
  • Using old DVD/CD Writer (why not!)
  • Will need a new case. I like black and I like minimalism (no flashy ugly crap).

6) Will you be overclocking?
Probably not.

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
In the next month or so, depending on how the search goes. I am open to a package from Dell (was actually looking at one of the Studio's, but the only video card option is 9800
GT =\) or somewhere similar. NCIX.com or TigerDirect.ca also works for me. As far as retail, FutureShop/BestBuy also work for me if they happen to have a prebuilt model that suits my needs.

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? etc.
Don't need anything special on this end. I would like one that is upgradeable in a few years if possible, unlike my current S939 FX-53 :(

10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license?
This is one of those areas I'm not sure about. I like XP and would prefer to not use Vista. If I have to use Vista, I don't know about the 64 bit and 32 bit and what is compatible with what and if I'll run into any compatibility issues with any software or games... totally lost when it comes to 32 bit/64 bit differences.


EDIT: Wow check out my sig... that shit is old school! Right after I bought my FX-53, the 55 came out and was way better for OC'ing, I was so depressed :( However playing HL2 @ 2048 4xAA 16xAF was very, very nice.
 
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Case recommendations: Lian Li PC-7B Plus II / PC-A07 / PC-A05B / V1100 / V1200 / V1000 / V1010.

I'll add more later, don't have much time at the moment.
 
I'll give you some advice. Stay away from Nvidia. Their drivers are still terrible. Especially the latest ones. If you are interested in a control panel for tweaking AA settings ect., forget about it. Want to do so on the latest drivers? Too bad.

Installing/fixing Nvidia's broken drivers take a lot of work, and there is no official "method" for doing so. It is hit or miss. If you want easy to use drivers (as in uninstall from control panel, reinstall then restart) go with ATI.

Nvidia's drivers are still crap even after the embarrassing 7600GS 512MB AGP (8 months after released, there were no working drivers, even the ones that shipped with it did not work).

Their cards seem to die a lot more than their ATI counter parts as well.

The AA sucks to. The 16x AA on my GTX 260 is about equal to my old X700Pro's 6x. Talk about pathetic.

The final nail in the coffin is that Nvidia cards cost more.

I thought they improved, so I got a GTX 260. Bad mistake. Stay with ATI.

I use Vista 64 bit, and it is good. Pretty much everything works fine on it. But I would wait for Windows 7 and get a 64bit version of that.

Get a bigger PSU. It can run a single HD 4870 1GB and GTX 260 fine, but you really don't have much room at all. If you're going with a single card, get 600 watts or so. If going SLI/Crossfire, I'd get an 800 watt.

Only a 64 bit OS can use more than 4GB of RAM, so keep that in mind.

Not sure if you really need 8GB. If you are only running a few programs at a time, then 4GB should be enough, but 6GB couldn't hurt. I just don't see you using 8GB at this time though, so it might be a waste of money.

As for a case, this Zero looks nice to me:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146054

On the cheap side, good reviews, large, and not many ugly flashing lights and the side cover is not glass. Looks to be a good case. The Cool Master is also very good, but pricey and ugly IMO.

If you have a lot of money, Intel Core I7s are where it is at, but if you don't, the AMD Phenom 2 quad cores are great performers for the money, Very over clockable.
 
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Flogger23m said:
I'll give you some advice. Stay away from Nvidia. Their drivers are still terrible. Especially the latest ones. If you are interested in a control panel for tweaking AA settings ect., forget about it. Want to do so on the latest drivers? Too bad.

Installing/fixing Nvidia's broken drivers take a lot of work, and there is no official "method" for doing so. It is hit or miss. If you want easy to use drivers (as in uninstall from control panel, reinstall then restart) go with ATI.

Nvidia's drivers are still crap even after the embarrassing 7600GS 512MB AGP (8 months after released, there were no working drivers, even the ones that shipped with it did not work).

Their cards seem to die a lot more than their ATI counter parts as well.

The AA sucks to. The 16x AA on my GTX 260 is about equal to my old X700Pro's 6x. Talk about pathetic.

The final nail in the coffin is that Nvidia cards cost more.

I thought they improved, so I got a GTX 260. Bad mistake. Stay with ATI.

I use Vista 64 bit, and it is good. Pretty much everything works fine on it. But I would wait for Windows 7 and get a 64bit version of that.
Click to expand...

I've got an 8800 GTX in one of my current machines, and was running 8800 GTX Tri-SLI for a while on a 780i.

I'm running 4890 CrossfireX on my current machine.

Both Catalyst and Forceware have their advantages and disadvantages. Anyone telling you different is selling something.
 
Yea, floggers post was about 99% inaccurate, both drivers have their advantages and disadvantages. They're both pretty good with annoyances.
 
Uberbob102000 said:
Yea, floggers post was about 99% inaccurate, both drivers have their advantages and disadvantages. They're both pretty good with annoyances.
Click to expand...

Without going more off topic, I never said ATI's drivers were perfect.

I was just going off a list of my experiences with the FX 5700VE, 7600GS and GTX 260.
 
Spend a little more and get a Core i7 920 quad core, x58 motherboard, and tripple channel dd3. About 90$ more for cpu, $60 more for mobo, and $25 more for memory, gets you a very nice system that will last much longer and be much faster at some things today, and definitely in the future.
 
If you don't want to spend the money on a Core i7 build, go with an AMD Phenom II build instead. Intel's Socket 775 processors and boards have reached EOL status, so you won't see many new parts around this time next year. For example, you could go with this bundle...

$267.28 CAD - AMD Phenom II X3 720 & Gigabyte GA-MA790X-UD4P bundle

... and save yourself quite a bit of money in the process.

AMD's current Phenom II line-up don't benefit from using DDR3 RAM, so I don't recommend buying a board that requires it. However, if you choose a different board than the one above, make sure that it supports the Phenom II processors right out of the box. Photoshop does benefit from the use of multiple CPU cores, so if you really want a quad-core, here's another bundle deal...

$354.99 CAD - AMD Phenom II X4 810 & Gigabyte GA-MA790X-UD4P bundle

Despite Flogger23m's experiences, I've had no problems with any of the Nvidia video cards that I've owned in the past -- and I've used several cards over the years. But he is right in saying that you could get a better card, like the XFX HD4890, for less than the GTX 275 that you're considering.

The long story short is that you need a 64-bit OS in order to have full use of all of your RAM. However, you can try the Windows 7 RC for free (but downloads cease around August 15) and see whether that encourages you to pick up the commercial version when it arrives in October. Windows 7 was designed in part to fix the problems that people had with Vista, and many people who have used the beta and RC versions of Windows 7 have been satisfied with the results.
 
tiraides said:
If you don't want to spend the money on a Core i7 build, go with an AMD Phenom II build instead. Intel's Socket 775 processors and boards have reached EOL status, so you won't see many new parts around this time next year. For example, you could go with this bundle...

$267.28 CAD - AMD Phenom II X3 720 & Gigabyte GA-MA790X-UD4P bundle

Despite Flogger23m's experiences, I've had no problems with any of the Nvidia video cards that I've owned in the past -- and I've used several cards over the years. But he is right in saying that you could get a better card, like the XFX HD4890, for less than the GTX 275 that you're considering.
Click to expand...

That bundle looks great. Is AMD still best for gaming and Intel still best for multitasking (how it was years ago)?

As for the video card, I went browsing some benches and found this one... Sapphire Radeon HD 4890 OC. It got some nice scores (like a 285), is this also a good choice?
 
The high-end Core 2 processors (like, for example, the E8500 and Q9550) outperform the Phenom II line-up in most benchmarks, at both stock speeds and overclocked. But the Phenom II processors are newer, cheaper, and have a longer "lifespan" since they were recently released. The Core 2 Duo/Quad is only good at this point if you want raw performance and you weren't going to upgrade the processor and/or the motherboard for at least a couple of years.

The Sapphire HD4890 OC is a little faster, but the XFX HD4890 has the better warranty. I recommend that you go with the cheaper card; you can always overclock the card on your own, if that's your prerogative.
 
Goes a little over the 1500 mark but you can adjust things here or there to bring it to 1500 or below

LIAN LI ARMORSUIT PC-P50 Black Aluminum ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
Item #: N82E16811112240
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy $209.99

Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drives - OEM
Item #: N82E16822136284
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy -$5.00 Instant
$109.99

2 in Crossfire XFX HD-489A-ZDFC Radeon HD 4890 1GB 256-bit DDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card - Retail
Item #: N82E16814150359
Return Policy: VGA Standard Return Policy -$56.00 Instant
$447.98

CORSAIR CMPSU-750TX 750W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power ... - Retail
Item #: N82E16817139006
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy -$115.00 Instant
$114.99

G.SKILL 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Triple Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9T-6GBNQ - Retail
Item #: N82E16820231225
Return Policy: Memory Standard Return Policy -$5.00 Instant
$106.99

EVGA 141-BL-E757-TR LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX X58 SLI LE Intel Motherboard - Retail
Item #: N82E16813188049
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy $20.00 USD Mail-in Rebate13-188-049 $274.99

Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80601920 - Retail
Item #: N82E16819115202
Return Policy: CPU Replacement Only Return Policy -$10.00 Instant
$309.99

Noctua NH-U12P SE1366 120mm SSO CPU Cooler - Retail
Item #: N82E16835608007
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy $84.99

Subtotal: $1,659.91
 
$160 is not "a little over," especially since shipping costs haven't been factored in. Are those prices in US or Canadian dollars?

Here's a more realistic Core i7 build (for simplicity's sake, all items come from NCIX and are in CAD):

$300 - Intel Core i7 920
$270 - Asus P6T SE
$110 - Corsair XMS3 3x2GB DDR3 1600 tri-channel kit (Weekly special price, only if purchased along with the above two items)
$366 - XFX Radeon HD4890 & Corsair TX750 combo deal
$112 - Seagate 7200.12 1TB HDD
$31 - Samsung SH-S223F SATA DVD burner
$58 - Cooler Master Elite 335 ATX mid-tower case
$243 - Samsung SyncMaster 2333SW 23in 1920x1080 LCD monitor
=====
$1490 - Subtotal (not including shipping, taxes, or rebates)

Despite the compromises made -- a cheap(er) case, no aftermarket CPU cooler (which you don't really need if you're not overclocking), and only 6GB of RAM instead of 8GB -- the Core i7 build is generally a better overall system. But it will eat up your entire budget, and that's before shipping and taxes come into play.
 
Buy the CPU and motherboard used here on [H]. Maybe a used PSU as well. That should put you within budget.
 
It looks like I don't have enough to get the full PC right now, so I'm looking for some input on my current thoughts.

My current PC specs are in my sig (sans OC'ing). My thought was to keep the speakers, mouse/keyboard, case, DVD drives, sound card (has head jack in front bay which I use) and monitor.

  • 1 x Gigabyte GA-MA770-UD3 ATX AM2+/AM3 AMD770 PCI-E16 2PCI SATA2 RAID 1394 HD Sound GBLAN Motherboard
  • 1 x AMD Phenom II X3 720 Black Edition Triple Core Processor AM3 2.8GHZ 7.5M Cache 95W 45NM Retail Box
$267.28


  • Sapphire Radeon HD 4890 OC
$264.99


  • Western Digital WD1001FALS Caviar Black 1TB SATA2 7200RPM 4.2MS 32MB 3.5IN Dual Proc Hard Drive OEM
$133.50


  • Corsair TX750W 750W ATX
$121.99

Would I have any problems with my existing case or sound card? Would I be able to still use my Raptors (if so, how should I use them? Raptors in Raid 0 for OS, storage on 1TB?). I've noticed that the video card only has DVI, is there a VGA to DVI adapter available that will let me use my old 21" until I can get the new one? I just want to be sure everything is compatible. Also, will this mobo last a few years, or when I upgrade will I have to buy a new one (along with RAM, proc, all over again :rolleyes:).

Thanks for the help all, I'm getting pretty excited to have a system that's fast once again!
 
Do you have DDR2 RAM for the above build? If not, swap out the power supply and hard drive for the following:

$90 - Antec Earthwatts EA650 650W PSU
$50 - OCZ Gold 2x2GB DDR2 800 dual channel kit
$100 - Samsung Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB HDD

The EA650 is more than enough for your entire setup plus the HD4890.

The HD4890 will come with at least one DVI to VGA adapter, so you'll be able to keep using your CRT monitor.

Though the WD Caviar Black 1TB HDD is faster/better, the Samsung F1 1TB HDD is cheaper (depending on shipping/taxes). Since you have them, you can use your 150GB Raptors in a RAID 0 configuration and use your 1TB drive as a storage drive. If you still want to buy 8GB of RAM, you can downgrade the hard drive to a 500-640GB drive.

Since you're not overclocking, you can use DDR2 800 RAM. If you have some extra money, you may be able to double your RAM.

A caveat: The GA-MA770-UD3 does support AM2+ and AM3 Phenom II processors, but whether or not it will support future generations of the Phenom II is unknown. For now, it should support any new Phenom II processors that are released within the next 6-12 months, but it's a guess at this point whether or not AMD will continue that trend next year.

Everything should fit inside your case with no trouble.
 
tiraides said:
Do you have DDR2 RAM for the above build? If not, swap out the power supply and hard drive for the following:

$90 - Antec Earthwatts EA650 650W PSU
$50 - OCZ Gold 2x2GB DDR2 800 dual channel kit
$100 - Samsung Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB HDD

The EA650 is more than enough for your entire setup plus the HD4890.

The HD4890 will come with at least one DVI to VGA adapter, so you'll be able to keep using your CRT monitor.

Though the WD Caviar Black 1TB HDD is faster/better, the Samsung F1 1TB HDD is cheaper (depending on shipping/taxes). Since you have them, you can use your 150GB Raptors in a RAID 0 configuration and use your 1TB drive as a storage drive. If you still want to buy 8GB of RAM, you can downgrade the hard drive to a 500-640GB drive.

Since you're not overclocking, you can use DDR2 800 RAM. If you have some extra money, you may be able to double your RAM.

A caveat: The GA-MA770-UD3 does support AM2+ and AM3 Phenom II processors, but whether or not it will support future generations of the Phenom II is unknown. For now, it should support any new Phenom II processors that are released within the next 6-12 months, but it's a guess at this point whether or not AMD will continue that trend next year.

Everything should fit inside your case with no trouble.
Click to expand...

Oops, I forgot the RAM.

Corsair XMS2 TWIN2X4096-6400C5 4GB DDR2 2X2GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=25228 - $58.92

That is all awesome news! I'll look into those replacement products (especially the PSU). I'm not sure about the HDD, it's one of those things where I think I like WD, but couldn't tell you why. I never even knew Samsung made drives, but I assume I shouldn't expect any problems if I do go that route?

Thanks a lot for all the info everyone. I guess the whole processor thing is OK because by the time I upgrade (2-3 years) I'll probably need all new parts anyways, and even if I don't the CPU is so rarely a system bottleneck it should be alright. All that's left now is to convince the lady friend! ;)
 
The Western Digital Caviar Black drives are (generally) better performers, plus they have a five-year limited warranty (all other commercial HDDs have a three-year warranty at most). The Samsung Spinpoint series generally runs a bit quieter than other brands (though noise is largely subjective).

The Corsair XMS2 kit is fine for your needs. If something were to go wrong with any parts -- even the best choices aren't 100% trouble-free -- you should be able to fix things with an RMA.
 
Consider this setup for all your needs and budget. It will deliver for the cost.

CASE - Cooler Master Elite 335 for $45.10
http://www.bestdirect.ca/products/182300/RC-335-KKN1/COOLERMASTER/

PSU – Antec EA650 for $84.79
http://www.bestdirect.ca/products/177363/ANTEC/EA650/

CPU – Intel Core i7 920 for $299.99
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=34598&promoid=1042

MOBO – ASUS P6T SE for $239.99 ($15 MIR)
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?affiliateid=4352418&sku=38342&promoid=1042

RAM - G. Skill 6GB DDR3 1600 for $114.44
http://www.bestdirect.ca/products/196506/F3-12800CL9T-6GBNQ/G.SKILL/

VIDEO CARD – XFX Radeon HD 4890 1GB for $234.99
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=37430&promoid=1042

HDD - Western Digital WD1001FALS Caviar Black 1TB for $98.85
http://www.bestdirect.ca/products/177741/Western_Digital/WD1001FALS/

OPTICAL – Samsung SH-S223 22X DVD Burner for $31.08
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=38115

MONITOR – ASUS VH242H 23.6” for $219.99
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=36970&promoid=1042

SPEAKERS – M-Audio AV30 for $101.99
http://www.compu2000.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=884

Total: $1,471.21 before shipping & taxes
 
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hehe... btw, its so much easier to OC these days then the pre-core2 days. ;)
 
khanis said:
6) Will you be overclocking?
Probably not.

I cried a little inside =(
Click to expand...

enginurd said:
hehe... btw, its so much easier to OC these days then the pre-core2 days. ;)
Click to expand...

If it is easier I may have to retract my statement :p I had some issues last time overclocking and am not really into it at the moment, but who knows if I get the urge I might just pick up a CPU fan and go to it :)

Thanks HardwareGuru for that website. It's cheaper than NCIX all around by quite a bit. I have one last question and just want to confirm that my old Raptors will be compatible with the SATA2 on the new mobo?
 
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Phenom X3/X4 < Core2Duo <= Phenom II X2/X3 < Phenom II X4 <= Core2Quad << Core i7

Stay away from Phenom first gen chips... they're starved for cache, so they perform terribly. Stick with Phenom II and its derivatives.
 
Ahh Phenom II, I knew I was missing some little detail like that.

Is there any advantage to 1066 RAM compared to 800?
 
of course there's a bit of an advantage since its faster. such performance scaling is more prevalent on AMD platforms than Intel. not much price difference either, so go for the faster one if its not much more.
 
If the resolution that you game on (using your CRT monitor) is less than 1920x1200, I recommend sticking with the HD4890.
 
Yeah right now I'd be using 1600 or 2048, but I will be getting a 23 or 24 inch in the near future. They mostly seem to be at 1920x1080, is the single 4890 a better choice at that resolution?
 
I believe that the edge goes towards the HD4850X2, but I forget how much of an edge it has.

If you aren't getting a widescreen monitor of at least 1920x1200 within the next six months, then I recommend getting a relatively cheap "stopgap" card and waiting until you've decided to purchase the monitor to choose a good high-end card.
 
That's a good idea what tiraides just mentioned on the video card. Since you have a CRT, you can run the game at any res and will still look good. Unlike an lcd monitor where it's best to run or display the game at it's native resolution. I would just run the game at 1280x1024 res on the crt and turn up the video settings. Then, upgrade to a larger lcd panel later on and then upgrade the video card. At least by the time you do this, video card prices will drop and ATI and Nvidia will have release their new line of videos cards.
 
HardwareGuru said:
That's a good idea what tiraides just mentioned on the video card. Since you have a CRT, you can run the game at any res and will still look good. Unlike an lcd monitor where it's best to run or display the game at it's native resolution. I would just run the game at 1280x1024 res on the crt and turn up the video settings. Then, upgrade to a larger lcd panel later on and then upgrade the video card. At least by the time you do this, video card prices will drop and ATI and Nvidia will have release their new line of videos cards.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's a great point. I can go with the 4890 now for ~$260 CAD and if I get the new monitor and the 5 line hits or prices lower on better cards I can always do that in a year or so. Looks like I'm good to go, I just to make sure my Raptors will work with the mobo (SATA-II) and that I have enough physical space for this beast of a video card.

Thanks all for the help! I remember back in the day I used to be the one building people machines... ahh the good ol' days. All this reading and reviewing of current gen parts has sort of reignited my OC'ing needs, so I fully expect to be buying an aftermarket fan or two to OC both my CPU and 4890 :D
 
The Raptors will work, but they perform on par with the current Caviar Black drives. :p

For an aftermarket HSF, get the Xigmatek Dark Knight. ;)
 
Your Raptors will work fine on the mobo. if you have the older Raptor drives SATA 1.5 gb/s, it will work on the SATA 3.0gb/s SATA port. The same as how an IDE harddrive with an ATA100 interface will work on a mobo that has a IDE connector that's ATA133 interface.
 
enginurd said:
The Raptors will work, but they perform on par with the current Caviar Black drives. :p

For an aftermarket HSF, get the Xigmatek Dark Knight. ;)
Click to expand...

Niceeee. I plan on using my two 74GB Raptors in Raid 0 for OS and the 1TB for storage. Do you guys know if games and apps (like Photoshop) should go on the OS or storage drive, or would it even matter that much?

I just put in my cashout request on PokerStars for ~$800. Can't wait to get this all up and running, weeeee! I think I'm out of questions so this thread can die now, thanks again to all who gave me advice.
 
Won't matter much. Personally, I'd simply sell the Raptors and replace them with a WD6401AALS. :p

Die? ahem... we require pictures of the build. -_- :p
 
enginurd said:
Won't matter much. Personally, I'd simply sell the Raptors and replace them with a WD6401AALS. :p

Die? ahem... we require pictures of the build. -_- :p
Click to expand...

I can post some pics of the motherboard and such once it's all set up. They won't be too exciting though since my monitor, speakers, and case are ancient ;)
 
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