GoldenTiger
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When some are saying "it barely matches a 5870", then no, it isn't.
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Fermi comparison across reviews
- Thread starter GoldenTiger
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When some are saying "it barely matches a 5870", then no, it isn't.
Not being terribly excited about a product that fits in barely where it needed to to not be a huge let down doesn't make people 'fanATIcs' or whatever retarded fanboi term you want to keep using. I think the card is fine I'm just not interested in your bullshit.
You need to work on your math skills, Tiger. Your fps comparison uses the 5870 as the baseline, so the GTX 480 averages 114.48% as many fps as the 5870. To keep the money comparison equal you need to divide the MSRP of the GTX480 by the MSRP of the 5870. Based on other comments, the actual MSRP is $380. $500/$380 = 131.58%. Or if you want to stick with the $400 MSRP for the 5870, $500/$400 = 125%. So, for a 14% gain you pay a 25-32% premium, not including the additional energy costs.
LAiN_OfTheWired
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GoldenTiger, you can believe whatever you want, but 70% of [H]ardForum is unimpressed. Also, you seem to be one of a very few, select elitists that had problems with an ATI 5800-series card.
Performance vs price, Fermi is OK. Performance vs power, Fermi falls flat on its face. Since only 2 of these 3 numbers are controlled by the people who engineer the cards and the other number is controlled by the people that market it, performance vs power is the only logical deciding factor of how 'good' the chip is. The ATI offering is simply superior in this regard, and there is no arguing it.
In other words, that's awesome if it performs 17% better and it only costs 20% more because hey, you're an Nvidia guy and 3% is only like $12. Trying to justify the card as a success when it is 6 months later than the competition and lacks the energy efficiency of the competition because it has "way too many awesome fkn features" that will never be used by the home-bound enthusiast is... well, it's a lost cause. If those features were really utilized by a good portion of gamers, it may be a different story. 3D Vision, Nvidia Surround, and GPGPU applications are a very tiny niche, though.
For people who don't really care about brand, ATI is the better purchase. They have better performance/power ratio, and they have the fastest card on the market. You want the best single card out there? 5970. You want a system that's going to perform incredibly well and not spike your energy bill like a volleyball? 5870 and 5850. They do 85% of what their Nvidia counterparts do at a slightly smaller base cost and a good $150-250/year less worth of energy used (depending on where you live).
Quit crying and deal with it.
Performance vs price, Fermi is OK. Performance vs power, Fermi falls flat on its face. Since only 2 of these 3 numbers are controlled by the people who engineer the cards and the other number is controlled by the people that market it, performance vs power is the only logical deciding factor of how 'good' the chip is. The ATI offering is simply superior in this regard, and there is no arguing it.
In other words, that's awesome if it performs 17% better and it only costs 20% more because hey, you're an Nvidia guy and 3% is only like $12. Trying to justify the card as a success when it is 6 months later than the competition and lacks the energy efficiency of the competition because it has "way too many awesome fkn features" that will never be used by the home-bound enthusiast is... well, it's a lost cause. If those features were really utilized by a good portion of gamers, it may be a different story. 3D Vision, Nvidia Surround, and GPGPU applications are a very tiny niche, though.
For people who don't really care about brand, ATI is the better purchase. They have better performance/power ratio, and they have the fastest card on the market. You want the best single card out there? 5970. You want a system that's going to perform incredibly well and not spike your energy bill like a volleyball? 5870 and 5850. They do 85% of what their Nvidia counterparts do at a slightly smaller base cost and a good $150-250/year less worth of energy used (depending on where you live).
Quit crying and deal with it.
How is trying to correct FUD about the card's performance "a joke"? FanATIcs did the same about the 5870 vs. GTX 280... heck, I joined them at the time even though I am not biased toward either side. I personally hate FUD no matter where it is. I'm simply a "fan" of the best-performing single-GPU product.
I notice that you guys aren't able to refute on performance, so you start slinging "fanboy" or similar insults around... that speaks volumes more than anything else you could ever say.
I think its more along the lines of, wow the GTX480 card is indeed faster than the 5870. However, does the minor speed increase REALLY justify showing up to the party 6 months late? Everyone already got drunk off of all the 5800 series punch, and they're feeling good.
If the 480 was released 3-4 months ago, I sincerely doubt people would still be hating on the card.
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GoldenTiger
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Yes, because no one has any issues with cards, nvidia OR ati, that not everyone experiences... just because I notice the issues I had means I'm an "elitist" I guess, huh? I had a 5870 and it sucked in my opinion, I stuck with it because it's what I had and nothing faster was available yet. If I am not mistaken, I'm not the one crying... it's people trying to debunk the reviews that pretty clearly show a notable performance gain that are trying to thrash about as though it matters, when people are trying to discuss their new card purchases.
What does lateness matter at this point... it'll be in our hands shortly. That doesn't affect everyday gaming, and I had the 5870 in the meantime anyway, so it's not like I was purely waiting on the 480 to be able to game at all. I personally think 20% is not a "minor" increase for avg. FPS, and 20-30% on the minimums across the board at 1920x1200 4x AA, but that's just a wording opinion I suppose. It's enough to impact the gaming experience notably, so I don't consider it minor. I'm impressed enough with the launch, late or not *shrug*. I switch back and forth to grab whatever's the fastest, normally, but I can safely say unless I hear of ATI driver improvements in the future I will be sticking with nVidia.
Just in case you're curious, my recent card history includes for my main gaming rig (not going to go back to the Voodoo 2 days and earlier, as that's irrelevant):
GF3 Ti200
GF4 Ti4200
Radeon X800XT
Radeon X1900XT
7900GT
8800GT SLI
downgrade to single 8800GT
Radeon 4870
switch to GTX 280
Radeon 5870
then now, the GTX 480.
I assume the pattern is pretty self-evident, no?
Guys, he's already made up his mind and is just trolling, quit feeding the troll.
GoldenTiger
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I was never asking for opinions, I was stating facts and looking for discussion about my new card purchase... instead I get threads filled with comments like yours
, and little actual discussion. I'm not "trolling" because my opinion doesn't match yours. Comments like the one quoted though sure sound like you're trying to rile people up though, I'll say.Intel_Hydralisk
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I don't think this thread was ever about changing GoldenTiger's mind. If anyone here was, then they got self trolled.
I was never asking for opinions, I was stating facts and looking for discussion about my new card purchase... instead I get threads filled with comments like yours
You're asking for discussion without opinions, wow do you like your oceans with no water? cool story bro.
Megalomaniac
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say, do you think the 5870 can OC more than the 480?
I do not think that comparing a more expensive, hotter, louder card is fair.
The true street price of the 480 is yet to be seen. And amazon is no indicator, just ask the people who are STILL waiting for the amazon XFX 5850 that they ordered for 260 bucks some 5 months ago.
Back on topic, if you want to do an apples to apples comparison who is faster, lets OC the 5870 to as close as the 480 in terms of wattage and see what we get?
For now, the 480 is faster, but speed in games is not everything, because Nvidia cheated in essence, its a P4. All they did was slap a bigger heatsink and throttle the card.
A lot of reviews have posted that the 5870 is an OC beast, so for the money, I think not even you will be able to refute, that when you have a really good non reference heat sink on the 5870 (like the toxic) and OC it, you will get performance better than the 480.
If you purely consider out of the box performance, then yes, the 480 is faster. But if i was recommend it to anyone, I would caution them on how much it draws and how loud it is. A lot of people will have to upgrade the PSU to use the card. And i know its hard to believe, but most people dont want loud computers if they have a choice. Loud computers is so 2001....
I have to agree with this statement. I've read every page of this thread and everytime someone brings up a different opinion of the 480, Golden Tiger immediately jumps to defend his point. This is not a discussion, this is someone trying to justify and convince everyone else he's 'right'.
In a real discussion, everyone is allowed to have opinions that differ and facts are acknowledged with no emotional overtones associated with any statements made.
That said, yes, the 480 is faster than the 5870 in most resolutions. If that's all that matters to the Golden Tiger, then this discussion is pretty much over.
I don't think this guy cares if the 480 draws up to 100 watts more power, is louder, or more expensive - which are also facts.
Golden Tiger - what did you want to come from this 'discussion' thread you initiated?
There are a lot of reviews, some claiming victory for Fermi (techpowerup, Guru3D), some claim it as a Flop (Bit-tech) having encountered less performance increase in their testing.
I would be interested in it for the really good drivers and developer support frankly, but the heat/power issue just kills it for me. This is ridiculous to have a card go up to 95C under load. I am living in Singapore with hot, tropical climate and my study room does not have a separate air-con, so the temps can go above 30C, I am wondering what will be the card temps at this higher ambient.
Given the ambitious architecture though it seems prudent to wait for a process shrink so that the thermals/power go to reasonable levels. It would be interesting to see if there are claims of cards overheating once people actually can buy it.
I would be interested in it for the really good drivers and developer support frankly, but the heat/power issue just kills it for me. This is ridiculous to have a card go up to 95C under load. I am living in Singapore with hot, tropical climate and my study room does not have a separate air-con, so the temps can go above 30C, I am wondering what will be the card temps at this higher ambient.
Given the ambitious architecture though it seems prudent to wait for a process shrink so that the thermals/power go to reasonable levels. It would be interesting to see if there are claims of cards overheating once people actually can buy it.
I'm not an electonics guy by trade, but I predict alot of hardware failures due to heat in the near future with these cards. Imagine this card in your case in the middle of summer with no AC. I'm not sure if nVidia has done any controlled long term testing under the thermal requirements of this card, but I bet they have not. Give the card some time to fully cook in retail and wait and see if thermal issues start popping up all over the intertubes.
As an aside, if heat doesn't turn out ot be an issue for this card, and continuous improved drivers are released by nVidia, this card could possible live up to the potential that nVidia envisions.
Thanks for posting the chart. I just wished the 470 had more performance compared to the 5850. 350 vs 310 so it's like 40 dollars more expensive for 10% increase in fps with AA enabled. Not to mention more heat and noise for a card that isn't even the highest in it's class.
GoldenTiger
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Yeah, the 470 doesn't really look up to snuff at this time, IMO either.
LstBrunnenG
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Nobody's trying to claim that it's not faster.
People are claiming that 15% is an underwhelming performance lead, especially when the part consumes 150W more power, costs $100 more, and loads at pretty damn close to 100 C.
I think it's especially revolting that the GTX 480 isn't even a full GF100. Parts of the die are disabled like they usually are for lower-end parts like the 470 (which also has additional components disabled).
The smartest thing to do might be to wait for a refresh - nVidia will likely be releasing a version of GF100 with all features enabled, lower TDP, and lower power consumption.
People are claiming that 15% is an underwhelming performance lead, especially when the part consumes 150W more power, costs $100 more, and loads at pretty damn close to 100 C.
I think it's especially revolting that the GTX 480 isn't even a full GF100. Parts of the die are disabled like they usually are for lower-end parts like the 470 (which also has additional components disabled).
The smartest thing to do might be to wait for a refresh - nVidia will likely be releasing a version of GF100 with all features enabled, lower TDP, and lower power consumption.
My disappointment comes from the Nvidia Cards fitting in perfectly with ATI's pricing scheme. ATI could easily crank out cards to fill the gaps that Nvidia just brought out. The effect of this is that there is no competition to drive prices down. At most we can expect market demand to drop pricing back in line with MSRP. Basically, you pick how much you are willing to spend on a card and buy the card in that price bracket. The pricing is offset enough that the top of the line cards from each manufacturer are not in direct competition with each other. Honestly, I will probably end buying a 5970 once the price drops down some but this is because I don't want the noise and heat that the GTX seems to produce. My computer room is at the wrong end of the house from the start of the AC ducts and I don't want to freeze out the rest of the house any more than necessary to make it comfortable.
LGabrielPhoto
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The card to get for me is the 480 and it is not only faster in AVG but the most impressive part if the Minimum FPS performance which just kicks major ass. Also when a lot of tessellation is used the lead grows bigger as well...I am for sure getting one and hoping for dual as the SLI performance is stunning.
that's the kind of statements that OP expects. If you dare to state something different, he's gonna jump down your throat
Now everyone repeat after shaolin95, Fermi kicks major ass
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LGabrielPhoto
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LOL
I just hope the current pricing showing stays there....
I just hope the current pricing showing stays there....
GoldenTiger
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that's the kind of statements that OP expects. If you dare to state something different, he's gonna jump down your throat
No, actually, you guys are jumping down *my* throat every time I say something positive about Fermi... unless someone's saying it sucks, you jump on it and call it a troll/uninformed/etc.
.JayteeBates
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And the noise/heat. Plus with 15% BCB I got a XFX 5870 for not much over $330!
GoldenTiger
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Once the 480 is out I'm sure we'll see Bing CashBack deals with it too... no reason we wouldn't since they're vendor-wide percent discounts
.Most people buying $500 video cards, which to most are frivolous expenses since many buy whole computers for $200-250, don't really care about the heat/etc. I wouldn't think.
thehybridfrog
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Disclaimer on my opinion: I plan on SLI'ing 480's.
I think that the 10-15% jump in performance over the 5870 is barely worth it for the extra 100-150. I know people who got 5870's at launch for 380, and I patiently waited for Fermi. I am betting on nVidia's bet for the future of gaming, and their drivers team. I'm not the type of person to go for bang-for-buck or else I would get a 5970 or CF5850's. (In fact the 5870 is the LEAST bang-for-buck in the 58XX line).
We're all enthusiasts and gamers here, and I think Goldentiger has a right to defend Fermi. If you call him out for responding to you, why would you post in this thread.
I think that the 10-15% jump in performance over the 5870 is barely worth it for the extra 100-150. I know people who got 5870's at launch for 380, and I patiently waited for Fermi. I am betting on nVidia's bet for the future of gaming, and their drivers team. I'm not the type of person to go for bang-for-buck or else I would get a 5970 or CF5850's. (In fact the 5870 is the LEAST bang-for-buck in the 58XX line).
We're all enthusiasts and gamers here, and I think Goldentiger has a right to defend Fermi. If you call him out for responding to you, why would you post in this thread.
LGabrielPhoto
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People keep quoting the 15% avg performance but forget that the MIN fps is a lot better most of the time and so is tessellation performance.
There's a fine line between defending one's point of view and ramming yours down everyone else's throat, and GT crossed that line on more than one occasion by accusing others of being fanboys and whatever else while his own behavior was exemplary of his own accusations, and yet, he fails to recognize that. That's why I personally just put him on ignore list.
GoldenTiger
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People shoved those accusations on me (low IQ, sh**head, fanboi, fangirl, nVidiot, moron, dumb***, etc.) long before I slung the term "fanATIc" even once, if you go look at the post histories. I'm being very mild... so, call it what you want, but that only means your posts are that many multiple times worse. This is really stuff that belongs in PM's, but since you want to drag it out here *shrug*.
Here's you a few days ago before I even posted much about Fermi in regards to me...
Practice what you preach. If you're going to call someone out for using a term, try not to use it yourself. You also have done it on more than one occasion.... I don't personally care much, except when people go over-the-line vulgar, but if you're going to pretend you're so offended by a term, it's pretty hypocritical to be slinging it around yourself first then complain about someone else later on after having seen people slinging it many times, using it back on you.
People keep quoting the 15% avg performance but forget that the MIN fps is a lot better most of the time and so is tessellation performance.
Yep, people also forget that it exceeds 15% average in the really demanding games, as well. Average, for those who forget, means some lower, some higher...
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Goldentiger, You've responded to basically every other post here but I have yet to see you acknowledge your incorrect calculations as pointed out by brownkc. To be fair, you stated the 5870 is $420 which I find to be the general selling price right now, not $400 (ignoring deals). However, this means that 500 / 420 = 1.19 which means there is a 19% premium rather than 16% as you said in your original post.
Until you acknowledge this and edit your original post, no one can take you seriously because it seems like you just fudged the numbers to support your argument.
It is the fastest single gpu card, but hot and loud. That about sums it up, no need to jump at each others throats. Also take note that w/o strong opinions any such thread would die of soon.
I respect goldentigers opinion although mine differs on certain aspects, but sure as he'll it is fun to be on the forums the last days.
I respect goldentigers opinion although mine differs on certain aspects, but sure as he'll it is fun to be on the forums the last days.
flak-spammer
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If I had the money at the moment I'd probably buy a GTX480. Not because of gaming, but because of all the other potential uses. I like to do various GPU compute projects as well as test objects that require particle physics. Honestly half the problem the the GTX480 is the fact that it is an entirely new architecture, it's not based on anything that they've ever produced before. It's not even based on a past modular architecture...*cough* *cough* 4870 --> 5870. So if people wanted 150% the performance of a 5870 they most certainly were dreaming, it doesn't work that way...Ever, and/or if it does it's pure luck. That being said the 5870 is not a bad card but I don't feel like paying for extra features I'll never use aka Eyefinity, which is explicitly designed for people who have tons of cash to dump and don't even have to worry about the cost of the GPU since the monitors cost more. Therein for people like me the 480 is a better use of money. Anyways, people are allowed to think what they want and therefore everybody is right and everybody is wrong. No sense in trying to say an opinion is wrong since it is right from the person who stated it.
GoldenTiger
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Good post. (thumbsup)
People can't forget something that never happened. You said that in another thread as well, and then pointed at Far Cry 2 - which is NOT a really demanding game. In the really demanding games, Fermi's lead tends to be LESS than 15%. In games like Crysis Fermi has almost no lead at all. BC2, a demanding DX11 game, Fermi's lead is less than 10%. Indeed, the only really demanding game where Fermi currently has a lead greater than 15% is Metro 2033.
Since you didn't respond to me pointing this out in another thread, I'm going to assume you'll continue to ignore the truth and spew bullshit to justify calling a mediocre card something spectacular.
People keep quoting the 15% avg performance but forget that the MIN fps is a lot better most of the time and so is tessellation performance.
Care to back that statement up? Fermi's min fps has been about the same difference as its average FPS. Nvidia fans love to claim that Nvidia cards have a higher min fps, but most of the time they really don't. The min fps on modern cards sits right about where their averages stack up. A card with higher average fps typically has higher min fps as well.
And its tessellation performance isn't reflected in DX11 games that actually use tessellation.
I really really like to know where I'm paying extra for eyefinity so if don't want NV surround or whatever they call it, Nvidia will refund me part of the money back, is that what you're telling me?
I'm just pointing out the facts, and warding the fanATIcs away
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showpost.php?p=1331382513&postcount=66
going on 8 years now and I don't think you're missed
GoldenTiger
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http://www.rage3d.com/board/showpost.php?p=1331382513&postcount=66
going on 8 years now and I don't think you're missed
Teens say and do dumb things... that's all I really have to say about that. I'm sure everyone can think of stupid things they said in their teens, and frankly anyone who won't admit that is one of the world's biggest bullshitters ever. If you're going to be hunting down 10-year-old posts, you might also have noticed I was praising ATI through the sky around the time of the 9700pro launch, too.
I did, because it is cancellable and is not charged until it ships. It's called "hedging your bets": if it turned out nicely (which it did in my opinion) I was in a position to simply keep a pre-order; if it turned out to be a steaming pile of garbage, I could have cancelled and have lost nothing. Explain to me how that is some kind of loss? I also had seen leaked benches that looked fairly promising as well. It was a win-win situation to do so.
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WabeWalker
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No, actually, you guys are jumping down *my* throat every time I say something positive about Fermi... unless someone's saying it sucks, you jump on it and call it a troll/uninformed/etc.
Welcome to the Hardforum.
Vermillion
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How is that a good post? GTX280/GTX260 was nothing but a rehash of the 8000 series (and I won't talk about the other rehashing and bullshit names NV has been using). 4000 series was a new architecture. Whatever makes up the 6000 series will be new technology. Whatever makes up GTX500 series will be rehashed Fermi.
And paying for Eyefinity? WTF? You don't have to use Eyefinity. You're paying for the badass performance and wonderful power usage. Eyefinity is just a HUGE bonus. Keep in mind that unless you want super duper S-IPS screens you could technically get a 5870 and three monitors for less then the cost of SLI GTX280s which is required for NV Surround. And that's not including possibly having to upgrade a PSU and an UPS as well for that big a PSU.
I don't give a shit about GPGPU performance or how fast it can do tessellation right now just like I don't care about new versions of DX right off the bat either. Once tessellation is really used I'll start caring about the technology. I care about gaming performance, power usage, and price/performance. In that regard Fermi is shit. You can spin it anyway you want to make yourself feel better. I buy what's best for me at the time and Fermi ain't it because Fermi is pure shit. Gaming performance increase is incredibly minimal for something 6+ months late and can heat a house on its own.
I love how you keep trying to compare Fermi's current MSRP to the current high price for the 5000 series. High prices is what happens when the competition doesn't have anything out for 6+ months and when they finally release their new hardware it sucks. All I can say is thanks Nvidia for crap ass hardware because now we don't have a price war to look forward to.
GoldenTiger
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Actually, the 4000 series is simply an extension of the 2900, far moreso architecturally than a GTX 280/260 had similarities to the 8800 series.