Five 2.1 Speaker Set Comparison

[RishiGuru]

He said the same thing I did: only your ears matter in the long run.

BLEH.

Joe Average, another thing which every one is forgetting is that Tom'sHarware did both the objective [frequency graph analysis] as well as the subjective test of the speaker sets.

Tom'sHarware comments on:

SP2500: "The Corsair SP2500 sounds good to my ear, whether playing back hard-hitting games or all sorts of music. I did notice a kind of hollowness in the mid-range—with vocals particularly—and this does reflect the valley we saw in the frequency response at 3.5 kHz."

Klipsch Promedia : "It rarely shows the highest or lowest response in our tests, and has no obvious weaknesses except a drop-off in the 10 kHz+ range, which is a little surprising when you consider that these speakers are equipped with dedicated tweeters."

Z-623 : "It boasts a flat frequency response with gobs of bass available for games and music at your command. There’s even a bit of brilliance on the high end."

What do you make out of this?

 

[Joe Average]

And once again, it's the ears that matter in the long run - the reviewer's ears, your ears, and you apparently both feel those speakers are the best but you're failing at the point where you HAVE to say "they sound the best to me" and leave it at that.

What do I make of it? I make of it that it's a review, tainted by the fact that speakers cannot be objectively reviewed, ever - subjectively, sure, because the reviewer's ears are what's doing the listening (I don't care about paper specs, they're irrelevant) - but never objectively, it just can't be done.

If you do a specific test based on nothing from the technical perspective with an actual mic and some software doing the specifics, that's fine as a mic is a baseline - our ears are not baselines, every single one of us is different in that respect. Hence, what sounds best to me could potentially cause you to keel over and vomit profusely, who knows.

All I'm saying is that a review such as the one Tom's posted is effectively useless in the long run. You'd be astonished at how often in the past I've seen people make returns of products because they bought them based on reviews posted online, only to get the items home and - even in spite of them not being defective in any way - simply did not live up to the claims and opinions originally published in the very review that prompted them to buy the product in the first place.

And when it comes to speakers, that happens more often than you'd imagine.

You're trying to offer a review of something that cannot be quantified - sound quality - and that's the biggest problem of all. Tech specs on paper, even tested specs on paper, are one thing.

But sound quality... can't quantify that for all cases, it's simply not possible.

And if you're gonna change your posts, there's not much reason to continue... what's above as I'm posting this is not what was there when I started this reply.

 

[RishiGuru]

But sound quality... can't quantify that for all cases, it's simply not possible.

Joe Average, please don't get angry. I repect your views & perspectives and I hope you respect mine.

This is the definition I got in Wiki regarding sound quality : "Sound quality is the quality of the audio output from various electronic devices. Sound quality can be defined as the degree of accuracy with which a device records or emits the original sound waves."

This is done by making the audio frequency as flat as the input audio signal. Or hypothetically the speaker with ruler flat response curve will have the best sound quality, at least theoretically. I mean the Z-623 have a frequency response curve which is flatter than the SP2500 & Promedia in the graph. Z-623 does not have any sudden peaks or crests of SP2500 & Promedia.

In reference to the above view from the graph, it is seems Z-623 have better sound quality than SP2500 & Promedia.

But since subjective listening varies from person to person, a person may not like the Z-623 and choose the Promedia instead which does not mimic the best sound quality as Z-623.

So, I think from now on we should say :

Joe liked the sound of Promedia over Z-623

AND NEVER

Joe liked the sound quality of Promedia over Z-623

SINCE

Z-623 have the best sound quality of the above three.

Am I right?

 

[Joe Average]

Nope.

 

[Snufykat]

This is done by making the audio frequency as flat as the input audio signal. Or hypothetically the speaker with ruler flat response curve will have the best sound quality, at least theoretically.

None of the speakers in your graph display a flat curve.

 

[RishiGuru]

None of the speakers in your graph display a flat curve.

I meant that Z-623 have a frequency curve which is flatter than the SP2500 & Promedia. Z-623 does not have any sudden peaks or crests.

 

[RishiGuru]

Nope.

Why?

 

[Joe Average]

If you haven't figured it out at this point, any potential assistance on my part will just dig your hole for you that much deeper...

 

[RishiGuru]

If you haven't figured it out at this point, any potential assistance on my part will just dig your hole for you that much deeper...

Joe Average is angry again.

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

So, according to your theory : Promedia's sound better to you, not to everyone.

I still choose the Z-623 since:
1) It has the best audio frequency response according to the graph above
2) Z-623 with a single full range beats the midrange & tweeters of SP2500 & Promedia hands down according to the graph above
3) According to your theory : "It sound best in my ears"
4) The best price/ performance ratio

And it seems from now on, every member of this forum should give a shit to the scientific way of measuring sound equipments & also give a shit to what the other members of the forum says, and even if he is a noob, give a shit to others and buy the shit that is best in his ears.

Man my head got fuzzed.

Wait, I must've missed it because I was busy trying not to insert my own bias towards all things Logitech. Exactly how is the Logitech's response unequivocally better? Looks to me like it is equally shitty. The treble response isn't unequivocally better - look at those peaks and troughs, and the extension above about 16 kHz. And we still have no idea how these actually perform below 300 Hz or so in terms of frequency response.

Even if the graphs are accurate and free of bias - which they aren't - human interpretation of said graphs is entirely fallible. You're not running those frequency response results through some stats software (or doing the calculations yourself) to find the standard deviation of each one, are you? Not that that would even tell the story either, since standard deviation wouldn't correctly account for the difference between rapid peaks and troughs and a broad sweep above and below the neutral axis. In fact, the peaky one would probably score better.

Get my point?

 

[Oruf]

I'll save you all the read and just say M-Audio AV40's blow all of these out of the water.

Why someone would want to buy a set of speakers from a crappy peripherals company like Logitech or a memory company such as Corsair is beyond me.

Creative? LOL

Klipsch is at least decent.

This is another awesome Tom's Hardware failure.

Because companies never come out of left field and surprise people with new products...

Not saying you're wrong. Just that your reasoning for ignoring them is wrong.

Cept they didn't make the majority of the PSU's that got such great reviews.

I'm sorry but you buy audio gear from people who make audio gear just like you would for any product. It seems rather stupid to do otherwise and most of the data in this thread seems to back up my first point; these systems suck.

No offense but Tom's Hardware and HARDOCP, despite the fact that I love the great reviews they do, are two of the last places I would go for audio reviews.

 

[Snufykat]

Cept they didn't make the majority of the PSU's that got such great reviews.

I'm sorry but you buy audio gear from people who make audio gear just like you would for any product. It seems rather stupid to do otherwise and most of the data in this thread seems to back up my first point; these systems suck.

No offense but Tom's Hardware and HARDOCP despite the fact that I love the great reviews they do are two of the last places I would go for audio reviews.

There you go.

 

[Oruf]

I'll stick with my Beyerdynamic DT990 250 OHM from 05 and M-Audio AV40's pay less price for both than most of the systems in this thread and blow all your shit out of the water. Reviews like this are beyond missleading and just plain bad.

 

[newster]

I'll stick with my Beyerdynamic DT990 250 OHM from 05 and M-Audio AV40's pay less price for both than most of the systems in this thread and blow all your shit out of the water. Reviews like this are beyond missleading and just plain bad.

First off, this is clearly a troll thread from the get go, since the OP already has his mind made up no matter what anyone will say. However, just because a company has never made a certain type of product before does not mean they are incapable of making a good product of that type. That is all I was saying. I have never heard Corsair audio products, and have no need to because I am very satisfied with what I currently have. However, having not heard them means I cannot go around saying they are crappy, or else I am just trolling. If I were a perspective buyer, I would take the [H] review with more authority since they have heard those speakers, over your opinion, since you have never heard those speakers. Also, just because this website is known for reviewing other things, does not automatically mean they are inferior in reviewing audio compared to websites specializing in audio. I am sure whoever did the review has ears just like the rest of us. I hardly talk to anyone, be it friends or family, about fishing. But let me tell you, I am a killer fisherman.

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

I'll stick with my Beyerdynamic DT990 250 OHM from 05 and M-Audio AV40's pay less price for both than most of the systems in this thread and blow all your shit out of the water. Reviews like this are beyond missleading and just plain bad.

"Blow your shit out of the water"? Sounds pretty hostile to me. I think we need a round of chill pills for everyone here...

I haven't heard the AV40s, but the DT 990s are not my cup of tea at all. No mids - where'd all my music go?

Not sure where you'd get the DT 990s for less than $180 either, and certainly not less than the $150 systems here... I'm talking new of course, since you could get any one of those systems used cheaper, too.

Perhaps something along the lines of the ATH-M50 or Alessandro MS1i would be a better example (and I certainly prefer the MS1i to the DT 990 for everything except soundstage and comfort). But that's personal preference.

I agree however, that it would have been most useful to include several powered monitor sets in with this review.

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

First off, this is clearly a troll thread from the get go, since the OP already has his mind made up no matter what anyone will say.

Not to mention he's started two threads here, both that begin with a foregone conclusion - and they contain every single one of his 54-odd posts in this forum. I'm sure it's the same or near the same in the dozen other forums he's posted his Logitech trolling in as well.

Note that he's always right, and that he avoids answering questions like the plague that might actually reveal his true nature. He's done nothing to abate my suspicions that he may be conducting word-of-mouth hype-based advertising for Logitech.

 

[RishiGuru]

First off, this is clearly a troll thread from the get go, since the OP already has his mind made up no matter what anyone will say.

Why do you think this is a troll thread? I am exactly following toe to toe to what all you guys are asking me to. Look below to some comments:

And once again, it's the ears that matter in the long run - the reviewer's ears, your ears, and you apparently both feel those speakers are the best but you're failing at the point where you HAVE to say "they sound the best to me" and leave it at that.

IMO, sound is subjective. I agree with your points scientifically, but since is it will be my ears that hear the sound, the rest is irrelevant. What I think sounds great could be pure crap scientifically but does it matter if that is what I prefer.............The market usually go for the crap. The point is, what does it matter if you make the best product in the world if no one buys it.

In the end only your own ears and opinion can guide you to audio Nirvana. Don't let those charts be your only guide.

So according to Joe Average, caniba & Mathemabeat it is more important how the system sound in my ears, and secondly in the reviewer's ears.

In my ears : Logitech Z-623 sounds the best.

In reviewer's ears :

SP2500: "The Corsair SP2500 sounds good to my ear, whether playing back hard-hitting games or all sorts of music. I did notice a kind of hollowness in the mid-range—with vocals particularly—and this does reflect the valley we saw in the frequency response at 3.5 kHz."

Klipsch Promedia : "It rarely shows the highest or lowest response in our tests, and has no obvious weaknesses except a drop-off in the 10 kHz+ range, which is a little surprising when you consider that these speakers are equipped with dedicated tweeters."

Z-623 : "It boasts a flat frequency response with gobs of bass available for games and music at your command. There’s even a bit of brilliance on the high end."

The reviewer's critically points out the pitfalls of SP2500 & Promedia. He seems to be quite happy with the Z-623 according to his comments.

THE MOTIVE OF THIS THREAD

When I started this thread, I thought the scientific way of measuring & comparing two or more speaker set is very important. I also thought that views from other experienced members of the forum are to be trusted.

But the more the thread grew big, I found almost every one is telling me to trust my own ears and give a damn to what every one else thinks about it.

So right now I am in a juncture as what to believe & what not to.

 

[RishiGuru]

Wait, I must've missed it because I was busy trying not to insert my own bias towards all things Logitech. ............... In fact, the peaky one would probably score better.Get my point?

Blackbeard Ben, with all due respect I think you have missed or overlooked some parts of the graph. Take a look below:



Note that SP2500 with a separate midrange driver & tweeter takes a dip at 500Hz and also creates a valley between 2-5kHz range where cows can graze. Z-623 with a single full range driver have much better frequency response than SP2500 between 200Hz to 20kHz and have no sudden dips. This dips represents that the satellites are very weak in producing those frequencies.

Also there are a lot of Klipsch fanboys here. They think the Promedia are good just because they are Klipsch. So, they treat me as "Logi Crap". This is amply demonstrated by the comment made by ianken in the Corsair SP2500 review.

RE: .... the nerd rage from the Klipsch fanboys is amusing.

So, when I started my Logitech Z-2300 review I was greeted with a bombardment over Z-2300 by this fanboys telling me that the Z-2300 satellites are a piece of shit and the Promedia satellites with separate midrange & tweeter will blow the Z-2300 to the moon in the mid & high frequency response.

Logitech introduced Z-2300 succesor the Z-623 which mimics the Z-2300 in sound reproduction. That is Logitech's signature tune. And then Tom'sHardware did the review and posted the audio frequency graph while subjectively commenting on Promedia's: "It rarely shows the highest or lowest response in our tests, and has no obvious weaknesses except a drop-off in the 10 kHz+ range, which is a little surprising when you consider that these speakers are equipped with dedicated tweeters."

Looking at the graph you will find the Promedia satellites with separate midrange & tweeters drops of from 10kHz while the Z-623 holds strong till 15kHz and then drops off.So, instead Z-623 satellites featuring the same single 2.5 inch driver of Z-2300 proved to have identical midrange of Promedia and are better in pruducing 10kHz+ frequencies.

This is amply demonstaterd when Tom'sHardware said[Z-623]: "It boasts a flat frequency response with gobs of bass available for games and music at your command. There’s even a bit of brilliance on the high end."

I also did many personal subjective comparisons between the Z-2300, Z-623 & the Promedia and found out that the reviewer is right in his comment.

Ultimately, at the end Z-623 satellites blew the Promedia satellites to the moon.

Now came the question regarding the validity of the graph. Ok, if I admit even if they are not 100% perfect, they are at-least 75% perfect. Everybody have to admit that this graph provides a concreate evidence of the performance difference of the sets to a certain extent at-least.

Lastly there came the approach, that these scientific way of measuring speakers are not right to an extent, but are fully crap, and one should believe only his own ears. Look at the quotes below:

And once again, it's the ears that matter in the long run - the reviewer's ears, your ears, and you apparently both feel those speakers are the best but you're failing at the point where you HAVE to say "they sound the best to me" and leave it at that.

IMO, sound is subjective. I agree with your points scientifically, but since is it will be my ears that hear the sound, the rest is irrelevant. What I think sounds great could be pure crap scientifically but does it matter if that is what I prefer.............The market usually go for the crap. The point is, what does it matter if you make the best product in the world if no one buys it.

Based on the above comments from the experienced members I came to the following conclusion:

"It seems from now on, I being a member of this forum should give a shit to the scientific way of measuring sound equipments & also give a shit to what the other members say, and even if I am a noob, give a shit to others and buy the shit that is best in my ears."

Fallen in their own trap, these fanboys provided stellar remarks:

"Yeah well, you'll get used to the fuzzy feeling after a while, or you'll go jump off a building"

"STAND BACK, SOME N00B IS DOING SCIENCE!!! WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!"

"If you haven't figured it out at this point, any potential assistance on my part will just dig your hole for you that much deeper..."

...........................................

Still now I am searching for a justifiable answer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I started this thread, I thought the scientific way of measuring & comparing two or more speaker set is very important. I also thought that views from other experienced members of the forum are to be trusted.

But the more the thread grew big, I found almost every one is telling me to trust my own ears and give a damn to what every one else thinks about it.

So right now I am in a juncture as what to believe & what not to.

Blackbeard Ben I have seen you in AudioKarma and here, and I know you are wise & knowledgeable, so I request you to help me in this dire situation and provide me a way to judge speaker sets.

I admit comparing with you I am a noob, and I hope you do not treat me as a "Logi Crap".

Regards, RishiGuru

 

[Snufykat]

Blackbeard Ben, with all due respect I think you have missed or overlooked some parts of the graph. Take a look below:



Note that SP2500 with a separate midrange driver & tweeter takes a dip at 500Hz and also creates a valley between 2-5kHz range where cows can graze. Z-623 with a single full range driver have much better frequency response than SP2500 between 200Hz to 20kHz and have no sudden dips. This dips represents that the satellites are very weak in producing those frequencies.

Also there are a lot of Klipsch fanboys here. They think the Promedia are good just because they are Klipsch. So, they treat me as "Logi Crap". This is amply demonstrated by the comment made by ianken in the Corsair SP2500 review.



So, when I started my Logitech Z-2300 review I was greeted with a bombardment over Z-2300 by this fanboys telling me that the Z-2300 satellites are a piece of shit and the Promedia satellites with separate midrange & tweeter will blow the Z-2300 to the moon in the mid & high frequency response.

Logitech introduced Z-2300 succesor the Z-623 which mimics the Z-2300 in sound reproduction. That is Logitech's signature tune. And then Tom'sHardware did the review and posted the audio frequency graph while subjectively commenting on Promedia's: "It rarely shows the highest or lowest response in our tests, and has no obvious weaknesses except a drop-off in the 10 kHz+ range, which is a little surprising when you consider that these speakers are equipped with dedicated tweeters."

Looking at the graph you will find the Promedia satellites with separate midrange & tweeters drops of from 10kHz while the Z-623 holds strong till 15kHz and then drops off.So, instead Z-623 satellites featuring the same single 2.5 inch driver of Z-2300 proved to have identical midrange of Promedia and are better in pruducing 10kHz+ frequencies.

This is amply demonstaterd when Tom'sHardware said[Z-623]: "It boasts a flat frequency response with gobs of bass available for games and music at your command. There’s even a bit of brilliance on the high end."

I also did many personal subjective comparisons between the Z-2300, Z-623 & the Promedia and found out that the reviewer is right in his comment.

Ultimately, at the end Z-623 satellites blew the Promedia satellites to the moon.

Now came the question regarding the validity of the graph. Ok, if I admit even if they are not 100% perfect, they are at-least 75% perfect. Everybody have to admit that this graph provides a concreate evidence of the performance difference of the sets to a certain extent at-least.

Lastly there came the approach, that these scientific way of measuring speakers are not right to an extent, but are fully crap, and one should believe only his own ears. Look at the quotes below:





Based on the above comments from the experienced members I came to the conclusion:

"It seems from now on, I being a member of this forum should give a shit to the scientific way of measuring sound equipments & also give a shit to what the other members say, and even if I am a noob, give a shit to others and buy the shit that is best in my ears."

Fallen in their own trap, these fanboys provided stellar remarks:

"Yeah well, you'll get used to the fuzzy feeling after a while, or you'll go jump off a building"

"STAND BACK, SOME N00B IS DOING SCIENCE!!! WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!"

"If you haven't figured it out at this point, any potential assistance on my part will just dig your hole for you that much deeper..."

...........................................

Still now I am searching for a justifiable answer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I started this thread, I thought the scientific way of measuring & comparing two or more speaker set is very important. I also thought that views from other experienced members of the forum are to be trusted.

But the more the thread grew big, I found almost every one is telling me to trust my own ears and give a damn to what every one else thinks about it.

So right now I am in a juncture as what to believe & what not to.

Blackbeard Ben I have seen you in AudioKarma and here, and I know you are wise & knowledgeable, so I request you to help me in this dire situation and provide me a way to judge speaker sets.

I admit comparing with you I am a noob, and I hope you do not treat me as "Logi Crap".

Regards, RishiGuru

Justifiable answer to what question?
The answer has been provided, what is good is what sounds good to you. It is very subjective and different to each person and their perspective which is what makes the "this is best..." statements in your posts very arguable.
For example all of the speakers in your graph have perceived strengths and weakness. I would not spend my hard earned on any of the speakers in your review, i prefer to spend that sort of money on bookshelf speakers which can easily perform to my liking better than any out of the box speaker set.
For that sort of money you could get so much more, and that is and will continue to be my opinion.

 

[RishiGuru]

Justifiable answer to what question?
The answer has been provided, what is good is what sounds good to you. It is very subjective and different to each person and their perspective which is what makes the "this is best..." statements in your posts very arguable.
For example all of the speakers in your graph have perceived strengths and weakness. I would not spend my hard earned on any of the speakers in your review, i prefer to spend that sort of money on bookshelf speakers which can easily perform to my liking better than any out of the box speaker set.
For that sort of money you could get so much more, and that is and will continue to be my opinion.

Thanks Snufykat for your reply, but you are an experienced person in the audio field & I am not. So, with out any relative experience of what is good or bad I will follow my ears? And never look at these graphs?

 

[Snufykat]

Use the graphs to know what you want to listen to and hear in person.
Learn what the graphs are telling you, not one of the speaker sets in your post have a flat response, they all have horrible spikes.
Why do you present your "reviews" with an I know best attitude and then latter go with the I am a noob argument? You did it in your other post too.

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

Rishi, you must be blind because the Logitech has 5+ dB dips all over the place there....

 

[Mathemabeat]

In my ears : Logitech Z-623 sounds the best.

Wait...so you have listened to all those different speakers including the Corsairs? If so, did you do it objectively so as not to go into it with a biased "clearly Logitech is going to sound better" attitude?


I know a lot of folks don't dig the Promedia's sound. I had a pair for several years until a couple years ago the amp started getting scratchy and giving out. Sold them off cheap. I enjoyed them while I had them, though at this point the design is getting old as they have been on the market for about 10 years or so.


If you enjoy the Logitech sound, good for you. However as you can tell you have an uphill challenge convincing most of the folks here that they are as good as you perceive them to be. You might as well be on a Chevrolet forum praising the merits of a Ford!

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

Wait...so you have listened to all those different speakers including the Corsairs? If so, did you do it objectively so as not to go into it with a biased "clearly Logitech is going to sound better" attitude?


I know a lot of folks don't dig the Promedia's sound. I had a pair for several years until a couple years ago the amp started getting scratchy and giving out. Sold them off cheap. I enjoyed them while I had them, though at this point the design is getting old as they have been on the market for about 10 years or so.


If you enjoy the Logitech sound, good for you. However as you can tell you have an uphill challenge convincing most of the folks here that they are as good as you perceive them to be. You might as well be on a Chevrolet forum praising the merits of a Ford!

That's a very good point. Rishi, have you compared all of them - in a blind test, preferably? I assume not...

I haven't listened to any of them so I refrain from commenting, as I frustrate you so.

 

[RishiGuru]

Wait...so you have listened to all those different speakers including the Corsairs? If so, did you do it objectively so as not to go into it with a biased "clearly Logitech is going to sound better" attitude? ............ If you enjoy the Logitech sound, good for you. However as you can tell you have an uphill challenge convincing most of the folks here that they are as good as you perceive them to be. You might as well be on a Chevrolet forum praising the merits of a Ford!

Mathemabeat, I personally own the Z-2300 & Creative T3. Out of them day in day out I choose Z-2300 for music, movies & games. My second choice is Z-623. I also have an Audio Engine 5. But I am not going to compare AE5 with Z-2300 since it is a 2.1 comparison.

My best friend has Promedia, Z-2300 & Z-623. He also have Klipsch HiFi products adorning his house. He is a crazy Klipsch fan-boy. He bought the Z-2300 after hearing mine. Though according to him Klipsch is a HiFi company and should not be compared with Logitech, but according to him this Z-2300 is more than a match to the Promedia's. That is the reason why he bought the Z-2300 at first. I have listened to the Promedias for hours & days. And both me and my friend choose Z-2300 & Z-623 over Promedia.

I have heard the Corsair SP2500. But only for half an hour in a showroom from where my friend bought the Z-623. But that was an intense half hour session. I took my own songs(FLAC) in my pen-drive to find the strengths & weakness of SP2500.

SP2500 have Z-2300 type of chest thumping bass. Z-623 also fall in the same group. SP-2500 like the Z-2300 have the ability to decimate the Promedia with its bass. The SP2500 satellite behavior is uncertain. Tones seemed to be accentuated than Z-623 in some areas while in some other areas tones are missing.

For example: in a duet song I can hear the male voice very loud while the female voice was weak. Playing the same song on Z-623 the male voice is not as loud as SP2500 but then the female voice is not that weak either. Ditto Promedia.

I seems that Z-623 & Promedia satellites are more stable & have an uniform loudness through out the frequency range. Both of them are very smooth & subtle. On the other hand SP2500 satellite acts like a bare chested beast & are are ultra loud. First time out you are gonna love those SP2500 not doubt, but on the long run I do not know.

The difference between Z-623 & Promedia satellite came into light when i played the Yanni's "Nightangle" track. That track has so many audio instruments & the 10-20kHz advantage of Z-623 was clearly present but the difference was not sea apart . Still Z-623 was better.

Note: My friend believes that Klipsch have downgraded their Promedia recently. According to him his first Promedia bought way back in 2000 was way better than his recent 2010 version. Unfortunately that set went bust in two years time so I cannot verify that. Since this is a current topic under discussion we should stick to the recent version.

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

Okay, that's good to hear. But why not compare with the AE5? Or rather, compare to monitors priced similarly to these 2.1 systems? (AV40, AE2, etc.)

 

[Mathemabeat]

Holy shit.

I just went back and actually read the Tom's article and I don't know where to even begin. I kept looking at those frequency response charts and something didn't set right with me.

Problems with it I see in regards to their charts:

Testing not done in a anechoic chamber (which I can understand)
The Frequency response chart that shows all 4 systems has the Bass cranked all the way up! (The FUCK were they thinking?? Thats not how you do it).
No mention (that I can find) of actual hardware used to do the testing or specific room conditions they used. For all we know these could have been tested in a garage with a cheap-o Radio Shack sound meter (which are notorious for being poorly calibrated).
No mention in general of what eq/tone/dsp settings were used. Should have been set FLAT with all effects turned off.




My head is spinning!

RishiGuru: You can love Logitech speakers all you want and thats cool, but please, please ignore this article at Tom's. Its complete trash with flawed test procedures and important details left out. Fuck, it was like reading something Bose would publish.



For anyone wondering where I am getting they tested with bass controls crank up, check out this chart:

Compare that with the charts from this page:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pc-speaker-2.1-channel-subwoofer,2835-9.html


Anything look familiar? That chart showing the 4 systems overlayed on one chart is with all 4 systems with the bass control maxed out! Who knows about the treble and if any user defined eq/dsp settings were turned on.


This article is flawed beyond belief and is complete trash. This article is a shining example why you leave audio testing to people that have the proper hardware and testing facility. You can be subjective all day long and that fine, but soon as you mention objective and decide to actually start throwing up numbers, you better have the science down pat.

Those ass clowns clearly DO NOT.


F- for that article.

 

[RishiGuru]

Holy shit. I just went back and actually read the Tom's article and I don't know where to even begin. I kept looking at those frequency response charts and something didn't set right with me...........................F- for that article.

TomsHardware used this hardware:

Link : Test Setup And Benchmarks

I am also quoting below:

"Most PC speaker reviews are limited to subjective opinions. While those are quite useful, this is Tom’s Hardware. We’re going to try to go a little deeper than that with some objective measurements, too.

Our measurements are taken with a calibrated Apex 220 measurement microphone that has a phantom power supplied by TubeMP preamp. The measurement software we use is TrueRTA audio-spectrum analyzer level 4, found at www.trueaudio.com. Testing is done in a 25’x15’ room with the microphone pointed upward 30” from the satellites and subwoofer.

Mini-ITX Half-Height Build
CPU : AMD Phenom II X4 705e, 2.5 GHz, 6 MB L3 Cache, 65 W TDP

Motherboard : Asus M4A88T-I Deluxe Socket AM3
Chipset: AMD 880G, BIOS 0410

Networking
Onboard Gigabit LAN controller
Memory : Mushkin PC3 10700 SO-DIMM
2 x 2048 MB, 1333 MT/s, CL 9-9-9-24-1T

Graphics :Radeon HD 5570
650 MHz GPU, 512 MB DDR3 at 900 MHz

Hard Drive :Western Digital Caviar Black 750 GB
7200 RPM, 32 MB Cache, SATA 3Gb/s

Power :In-Win IP-AD120-2 160 W (included with case)

Audio :Realtek ALC889, High-Definition Audio Codec
Software and Drivers
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 x64
DirectX versionirectX 11
Graphics Drivers : AMD Catalyst 10.11"

Is that not enough? I do not know though.

 

[Mathemabeat]

Is that not enough?

No, that is enough. I missed the part about the room and mic testing setup they used. I saw all the pc equipment, but missed the little blurb right above that.



However, the rest of my last post still stands. Its still a poor article at best, and misleading at worst.

 

[RishiGuru]

No, that is enough. I missed the part about the room and mic testing setup they used. I saw all the pc equipment, but missed the little blurb right above that.However, the rest of my last post still stands. Its still a poor article at best, and misleading at worst.

I just loved what Snufykat said: "Use the graphs to know what you want to listen to and hear in person. Learn what the graphs are telling you...................." -->Thanks man!!!

Thanks to you too Mathemabeat. I do not agree with you in the "Tom'sHarware review is still a poor article at best" part. I believe for 2.1 speaker systems costing less than $250 it is more than enough. You will hardly ever find such an elaborate and indepth review regarding this sets in another website.

HiFi reviews are completely different & needs to be critically acclaimed. So, I do not compare them with this sets

Remember you still hold the award of "THE BEST POST OF THE THREAD AWARD"

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

Except that it entirely misses the best 2.1 systems and ignores competing 2.0 systems. If you think that 2.0 systems don't compete with 2.1 systems...

Well, I'm sorry, then I think you're a lost cause.

 

[Mathemabeat]

HiFi reviews are completely different & needs to be critically acclaimed. So, I do not compare them with this sets

How you figure?

Last I checked they still generate audio. And thats all they do.

It shouldn't matter if they are $150 or $15000. If someone is going to go through the process of testing them, they should use the same basic procedures and same base lines. Testing and measuring with Bass cranked up and who knows what other settings enabled is a flawed methodology. Plus different rooms will have different effects on different speakers. Thats what an anechoic chamber is important; you need to eliminate the room and its effects from the speaker results. Otherwise measurements can and will be skewed. Who knows what kinds of nulls and reflections the articles author had in his 25' x 15' room.


I am not saying I expect any of these speakers to sound like multi thousand dollars systems, however more thought should have been given to how they were tested and under what conditions.

 

[RishiGuru]

How you figure?

Last I checked they still generate audio. And thats all they do.

It shouldn't matter if they are $150 or $15000. If someone is going to go through the process of testing them, they should use the same basic procedures and same base lines. Testing and measuring with Bass cranked up and who knows what other settings enabled is a flawed methodology. Plus different rooms will have different effects on different speakers. Thats what an anechoic chamber is important; you need to eliminate the room and its effects from the speaker results. Otherwise measurements can and will be skewed. Who knows what kinds of nulls and reflections the articles author had in his 25' x 15' room.


I am not saying I expect any of these speakers to sound like multi thousand dollars systems, however more thought should have been given to how they were tested and under what conditions.

Mathemabeat, you know when I read your post what did I think : so objective.

Last time I was criticized a lot for just being objective. Now it seems the table has turned otherwise. Now I have become subjective & you have become objective.

God knows when the wheel is going to turn again. Take a chill pill dude......a listen to your ears, what ever they say is right & the rest is wrong.

Also give a shit to the "anechoic chamber" and their shits like "what kinds of nulls and reflections".

Thats what I have learnt.

 

[Snufykat]

Use the graphs to know what you want to listen to and hear in person.
Learn what the graphs are telling you, not one of the speaker sets in your post have a flat response, they all have horrible spikes.
Why do you present your "reviews" with an I know best attitude and then latter go with the I am a noob argument? You did it in your other post too.

So how about the question?????

 

[Blackbeard Ben]

So how about the question?????

See what I mean? He avoids all the "difficult" questions....

 

[RishiGuru]

So how about the question?????

Do not get me wrong Snufykat, but I deliberately avoided your question since I feared it will start another Cold War. But since you insist I will go on....

The question: "Why do you present your "reviews" with an I know best attitude and then latter go with the I am a noob argument?"

Answer: Being an engineer I am very good at analyzing objectively & scientifically. After my objective viewing I tend to my subjective view. This goes by default in my mind. When I started this thread I make myself aware of the subject, do some research & have some solid theories in my mind. I also provide some solid data that verifies the fact to certain extent & proves my point.

I do not do :

"You are wrong & I am right"
or
"My speaker system will blow yours to heaven"
or
"Blow your shit out of the water"
or
"get used to the fuzzy feeling after a while, or you'll go jump off a building"

But then the question arises as to why am I posting when I believe in my thoughts so much? The reason is knowledge always flows & the day I think I know all I will hit the dead end. I know in order to learn I have to communicate & share views & information in order to improve my knowledge of the subject under discussion. That is the reason why I post.

Regarding sound quality of a speaker systems, I thought one needs to be technically sound of what frequency response, noise level, dynamic range, THD, IMD+ noise, SNR, stereo crosstalk really means and how they relate to sound quality. And I am well versed in them. This creates my "I know attitude".

But I find that more the thread goes big it becomes evident that my approach of quantifying sound quality objectively & then subjectively is incorrect & completely wrong. It shows after reading the comments from experienced members of this forum that one should judge sound quality only by "his ears" or even better put "what sounds best in his ears". The rest technical part is pure crap. Looking at the quotes below justifies it:

And once again, it's the ears that matter in the long run - the reviewer's ears, your ears, and you apparently both feel those speakers are the best but you're failing at the point where you HAVE to say "they sound the best to me" and leave it at that.

IMO, sound is subjective. I agree with your points scientifically, but since is it will be my ears that hear the sound, the rest is irrelevant. What I think sounds great could be pure crap scientifically but does it matter if that is what I prefer.............The market usually go for the crap. The point is, what does it matter if you make the best product in the world if no one buys it.

Based on the above comments I came to the conclusion, one does not need any technical expertise & knowledge regarding sound & its behavior in order to understand the difference in sound quality between two speaker sets & even if he is a noob and think the one with 25%THD, 50%SNR & a frequency curve representing a "U" sound good to him then that is the best sound quality & he can tout them to all.

So, after believing the respected members of this forum, I have transformed myself into "I am a noob" in order to understand sound quality even better. With all the sincere efforts of some members I hope to be an even better noob in the near future.

PS: After my recent transformation from an technically sound engineer to a noob in order to understand sound quality even better, I do find the Audio Engine 5 sound quality to not being good enough, so I bought a $20 chepo Chinese made bookshelves named 3NOD. Being a noob it sound "excellent in my ears" and blows the AE5 to the moon. Atleast in sound quality.

I do not know how long will I be able to hold on being a noob.

Regards, RishiGuru

 

[Snufykat]

You seem to deliberately avoid lots of questions.
Do you think it is incorrect to favor what sounds good to you? Why is it wrong for others to think that?
If you think it sounds good then fine, you will have to do a lot better than some horrible sound response curves to convince people other wise.

 

[RishiGuru]

The SP2500 wattage is measured and reported according to FTC spec. Among other things, the FTC spec requires that the system is generating no more than 10% THD at the rated power.

I believe you're the author of this piece:

http://rishiguru2300.blogspot.com/

Where it's written:

Moreover most manufactures quote the peak power which is merely twice the continuous power since the peak of the sine wave using for a test has a value that is mathematically twice the average.

Logitech quoted Z-623 Peak Power = 100W X 2 = 200W

So, now you get the picture. But I do not find Logitech guilty for this reason since every other manufacturer be it Altec Lansing, Sony, Edifier or Creative are all following the same path, Sony being the worst example with their 300W claim for DB-500 speaker set which actually have only 100W according to a much respected website.

Agreed with your sentiments with regard to the liberties that many manufacturers take with quoting wattage, but to be clear, Corsair is *not* in this group. We report the real deal by following the strict FTC reporting guidelines. I believe Logitech's 200W claim is the apple to our 232W orange. Naturally, this is the point where I should mention that wattage isn't just about how loud a system can get, but how it sounds at low volumes.

I'm curious: what value do you believe that THX certification adds?




Tom's notwithstanding, this isn't a belief generally shared by people who have heard both. I believe the dropout was due to an EQ setting issue during testing; we're talking to Tom about that. Here's a second opinion in the form of two reviews by the same reviewer:

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/reviews/logitech_speaker_system_z623_review

And

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/reviews/corsair_sp2500_gaming_audio_speakers_review

Holy cow! Dylan Rhodes the Dir. of Marketing - Corsair Audio had visited my personal blog.

rishiguru2300.blogspot.com

And he commented & I missed completely. It also proved that my blog is worth visiting even by a Dir. of Marketing of a multinational company & comment on that subject. Man I am famous!!!

 

[RishiGuru]

You seem to deliberately avoid lots of questions.
Do you think it is incorrect to favor what sounds good to you? Why is it wrong for others to think that?
If you think it sounds good then fine, you will have to do a lot better than some horrible sound response curves to convince people other wise.

Snufykat, I am truly impressed with your ability about asking questions. Look below at the number of questions you asked in this 4 page thread until now:

1) The best part is it is supposed to be a 5 speaker comparison with only 4 sets of lines????

2) Justifiable answer to what question?

3) Why do you present your "reviews" with an I know best attitude and then latter go with the I am a noob argument?

4) Do you think it is incorrect to favor what sounds good to you?

5) Why is it wrong for others to think that?

It seems you are a very good questioner. Until now I have answered 3 of those 5. Keep up.

 

[RishiGuru]

You seem to deliberately avoid lots of questions.
Do you think it is incorrect to favor what sounds good to you? Why is it wrong for others to think that?
If you think it sounds good then fine, you will have to do a lot better than some horrible sound response curves to convince people other wise.

Snufykat, I do not need to answer the rest of your questions. Kett have provided all answers you ever needed, while answering Joe Average in the Corsair SP2500 review in this very forum.

I'll stick with my standard position: speakers cannot be objectively reviewed in terms of sound quality. They can be compared in terms of raw specs as measured with equipment with respect to given frequency response curves but, that just doesn't "work" in terms of actual sound quality. They can also be compared in terms of raw output power, etc, but saying something like this (taken from the conclusions of the review):

You know, I have been seeing this opinion get repeated over and over around here and in other random audio reviews at non-"audiophile" sites.

This is just blatantly false, and I am sick of hearing it.

Yes; audio, as well as a user's like of anything that appeals to a sense, is subjective. Everyone has an opinion. But you know what? People tend to be wired similarly; we're all "based on the same model" as it were. This makes review opinions a valid form of product evaluation, especially when taken in aggregate. If a review of a subjectively-colored thing was completely worthless, then there wouldn't be popular restaurants. SURPRISE SURPRISE though; as it turns out, a lot of highly-reviewed restaurants are actually good. Same goes for Beer, Wine, Movies, etc.

So now you may say "But Kett, if that's true why don't I just get my reviews from joe-random on the street if any person's opinion is helpful?"

Glad you asked! See, while some random guy may tell you something is good, you don't know his background in the subject. Lets go back to the food example: Say you're looking for a great cheeseburger, so you decide to ask a couple of people their opinion. The first guy you talk to has only ever eaten fast food burgers; Wendy's, Mcdonalds, Burger king, etc. He tells you "Oh yeah, Best burger in the nation is at Wendy's!" The second guy you talk to has eaten at all the fast food places too, but has ALSO eaten at other places including local joints, fancy restaurants, and known burger landmarks like NY gems Shake Shack and Burger Joint. He tells you "My opinion is Shake Shack has the best burgers." and then goes on to tell you, in detail, why he made the choice he did. He in fact dissects the quality of his meal down to the meltiness of the cheese, how the meat was cooked, what kind of bun was on the burger, the quality of the toppings, and how the sides were, down to the crunchiness of the fries. Now, throwing out all your own pre-conceived notions of fast-food and burger experience, Whose review would you trust? Would you consider both of them worthless because "Taste is an opinion" ? No. Obviously, the second guy has some experience with what both a good and a bad good burger is and given your choice between trusting the first guy, the expert second guy, or just going out to some random fucking restaurant blind, I think the choice is completely obvious.

Also: Just because a topic of review is generally subjective does not mean the reviewer can't make objective evaluations about the topic that downplay their own bias. Lets go with a headphone example this time. Generally, you can separate a sound signature into Highs, Mids, and Lows. Some headphones will be better at certain frequencies than others. As a (Good) reviewer, you can dissect the sound of the headphones into it's component parts, and evaluate each of them on Quality, Quantity, etc. Lets say a reviewer likes a lot of Bass, but is reviewing a headphone like the ATH-AD700 which has a notoriously light low end. A bad reviewer might say "These headphones blows, rap is horrible on these" a good reviewer might say "The highs and mids that this headphone produce are exceptional, and lends it to be an excellent choice for those who enjoy classical and acoustic music. However the low end, while accurate, lacks much of the punch and substance required to bring many genres of electronic music and hip-hop to life." What can you learn from these two reviews? For the first one, not much. You know he doesn't like it, and that he listens to rap. For the second one, you know the general strengths and weaknesses of the headphone. Do your audio needs lend themselves to the reviewed headphone's strengths? Do you trust the audio reviewers headphone experience enough to know that he has a good idea of what is and isn't a lot of bass "punch and substance"? If you answer yes to both, you can probably safely add those headphones to your short list.

Yes, you may not always agree 100%, but chances are much higher that you will when go with a proven expert opinion. The more experience someone has had reviewing products in a certain space, the more you can trust their future reviews. In other words, the broader their horizons are, the more you can trust them.

For example, my trust in Earl's reviews increased by 10 fold when he reviewed a well-known high-quality headphone from something other than the gaming space.(That being the ATH-AD700) Now that I know he's "eaten something better than a mcdonald's cheeseburger" (To bring it back to my first example up there) I am much more able to trust in his future evaluations.

In closing:

tl;dr:
If subjective reviews were worthless we wouldn't have food, movie, and music critics working for every major newspaper. They may not always be "right" in your case, but they damn well give you an idea about what the thing they are reviewing is like, whether or not you ultimately agree, and THAT is a valuable service.

My reply:

Kett, I truly understand your thoughts & feelings since I also give objective review & lot of importance along with the subjective one. Though I admit that objective review of a audio product is not all, but still it a substantial part of how you judge the audio product under discussion.

I found it very amusing as an engineer that this preconceived idea of "it is all in my ears while expert reviews & statistical data/graphs related to the product denote shit" very amusing.

If you look at my thread: Five 2.1 Speaker Set Comparison you will find every body have bombarded from every where claiming the audio frequency graph is done by nuts[Tom'sHardware], and it is not right, and we should give a shit to the graph. They give more importance to what an average Joe says than a experienced reviewer in a famous website. Note that his subjective reviews were also not taken positively at all.

While every body was critical about the reviewer no body ever thought that he & his scientific measurements, may to a certain extent denote the real performance of the sets. But all in vain.

"JUST LISTEN TO YOUR EARS". Damn!!!

These guys can always see a glass half empty, but can never see it as half full. This is their biggest problem.