Forbes: Atari 2600 vs XBox 360. Winner: Atari 2600

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steviep

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http://www.forbes.com/technology/20...ideogames-cx_el_1123oldgames.html?partner=rss

Self-explanatory... the writer is not so critical of the X360 as he's critical of the launch comprised mostly of sequels. He warns that the endless sequelitis and hollywood-ization of gaming is the death of it. Sound familiar? Yes it does. Review my posts over the last fewe weeks. The people who have been in this business for a long time are becoming the most vocal about it.
 
good article, short and to the point.

video games are suffering the same sort of malaise that is effecting the movie and music industry. few and far between original groundbreaking ideas, more sequels, more rehashing of the same old stuff. more and more bling at the expense of substance. I guess we can't blame them, they wouldn't do it if people weren't buying what they were selling.
 
Steel Chicken said:
good article, short and to the point.

video games are suffering the same sort of malaise that is effecting the movie and music industry. few and far between original groundbreaking ideas, more sequels, more rehashing of the same old stuff. more and more bling at the expense of substance.
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And let's be honest with ourselves, the ideas they are rehashing weren't that great to begin with. Halo 2?
I guess we can't blame them, they wouldn't do it if people weren't buying what they were selling.
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Which is the sad part.

I am honestly burned out. I'm sick of trying to show people how the music/movie/pc industry treats them like cattle. No one apprecaites it, they are all so dedicated to giving money to these people in return for the privledge of being treated like crap.

Vista anybody?
Sony?

Anyway, sorry for the rant
 
"The influence of movies and the movie industry has destroyed the gaming field in recent years. Is it possible to play a game that doesn't have tiresome cinematic introductions and cut scenes interspersed? Even more disingenuous are the screen shots from those clips passed off as actual scenes of game play."

QFT

I haven't been a real "gamer" since the N64 days, all I play now is CS:S and chess. the PS and the current generation of videogames felt more like interactive movies. Do some things, watch a cutscene, rinse and repeat. SSSPPPRRIIITES BEYACH! Nothing is worse than having a load screen, then a cutscene, then a slight load back to gameplay. Oh, yeah, not to forget that most games sucked because they focused on name reconition and cutscenes/graphics over fun.

Eh, /my rant
 
Sequalitis plagues every part of the games industry. How many Marios do we have? Sonic? Resident Evil?

I don't think that's going to change with merely a platform upgrade.

Blame it on the publishers who play it safe and sell what they think is going to recoup their development costs.

However, this kind of false nostalgia for the 'good ole days' doesn't hold water.

I think we're longing for a period in our life where we were able to submerse ourselves in our games...be it the first time we truly got into gaming or when we were just children.

Think there weren't wait times or load times back in the 'good ole' days'? Try playing King's Quest on the Apple IIe and WATCH it draw polygons before filling in the detail. Like watching an artist paint a picture EVERY TIME you move to a different scene.

Think movie's are ruining video games and never corrupted the Atari 2600? Well, there's ET the video game, of which there are about 5 million cartridges buried in the desert. THE GAME DIDN'T WORK and was launched anyways.

Finally, the 2600 was launched with a game that was just an updated color version of a dedicated Telestar game...Combat.
 
To the entire article linked: QFT^2!

I have been a gamer for 22 years starting with the Atari 2600. I have owned every system since including Neo Geo and ill-fated handhelds. I have yet to find a system like the NES and the 2600. Still to this day I have a game system rack with all of the main systems (I left out the Jaguar, CDi, etc) all playable via a switch and that switch is worn out on the NES and 2600 positions.

Out of the PS1 and PS2, which had huge game libraries, I could count with my body (pants off) the top games that get played and replayed. That is about one game a year average for those systems combined.

I know I've touched on it in other threads, but I left the game industry for just this reason. I also chose not to go to E3 this past year for the first time. I see things in a major downward spiral, and the only slight speck of hope is the Revolution. While everyone else is concerned with cramming ads and junk into sequel after sequel, and producing massively expensive "safe" titles, Nintendo is the only company going in the direction which is in the best interest of the real gamer. I can't handle anymore prettied up racing games, or smacking hoes in yet another fictional city, or madden 2k11, or just about any of the garbage being produced today. Very few games have grabbed my attention across all of the current systems in about 2 years, the notable exceptions have been: Katamari Damacy, Donkey Konga, and honestly that's the only two that are coming quickly to mind. How sad.

I was struck the other night while flipping past the Home Shopping channel, and they were selling the Atari flashback unit. The two guys selling it were genuinely having a good time playing Combat 2. I thought, with all the advances in technology why can't someone just come up with a updated version of combat? A 2D field which could look extremely detailed and various battlefields and barriers, then let two people have fun. What happened to simple and fun? I don't need the BFG4000 or 20 selectable weapons, 40 modes, and confusing menus and 3D control... let me and a friend cruise some tanks around and try to best each other quickly and simply. Sometimes less is more.

Does it ever seem strange that all these anthologies and retro games never see a reincarnation? Except when they try to go too far by turning Breakout into 3D with crappy controls. Just give me some basic upgrades like smoother looking blocks and perfect physics and silky smooth control.

I see the indie development support from Nintendo being one of the biggest draws in the end, and even though MS tried with their arcade stuff it all feels to mechanical and is mostly rehashes of cell phone games and PC shareware titles.
 
Breunor, you were 3 years old 22 years ago. I have been playing since I was four, and that was 21 years ago.

Again, I believe it's merely nastalgia. You weren't an alpha tester back then, you weren't quickly becoming disaffected with the review industry. You just played simple games through a child's eyes.

I agree with you about the NES. I spent hours with friends playing that console. But you know what? I moved on. Other platforms and games grabbed my attention. Going back now holds absolutely no interest for me. I find the NES boring now and would rather play something else.
 
Then buy Kameo when you get the X360 instead of any of the other games. It's a very fresh and original game.
 
Isaacav2 said:
Nothing is worse than having a load screen, then a cutscene, then a slight load back to gameplay. Oh, yeah, not to forget that most games sucked because they focused on name reconition and cutscenes/graphics over fun.
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MGS 2 anyone ?

I had the original Metal Gear on NES. It was one of my favorite games.
MGS on PS1 was pretty good and then the series turned to garbage.
I brought MGS2 back to EB the same week I bought it. This was at its peak hype when EB still had no questions asked return policies. The manager couldn't believe I didn't like it.

No, I like playing video games. When the hell did they become some POS "B" rate movie intersperced with short 5-10 minute gameplay sequences ? :rolleyes:
 
ahh the good ole 2600, coleco vision and the intellivision to name a few. I remember all these consoles and games. My nes is dead otherwise i would be breaking out chronotrigger and all the first dragon warrior game.

The game industry has been taking a dive. It seems like WWII is the theme of this year. Let see what next year theme is going to be.

anyone remember x-com? King's quest or the like?

I am waiting to see what N* has up thier sleeve with the rev. Will it be cutting edge. I would venture to say that it would be BLEEDING edge but will the sheeple bite is the question. My opinion no they won't. They bitch and moan but yet when it comes time to put up or shut up. Most shut up and continue the herd mentality.
 
Oh, I'm sure Super Mario 8, Zeda 10, Resident Evil 6, Donkey Kong Eleventy Billion, and Sonic Seventeen along with Metroid 15 will all be revolutionary on the Revolution.
 
Chris_Morley said:
Oh, I'm sure Super Mario 8, Zeda 10, Resident Evil 6, Donkey Kong Eleventy Billion, and Sonic Seventeen along with Metroid 15 will all be revolutionary on the Revolution.
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Amen.
 
Chris_Morley said:
Sequalitis plagues every part of the games industry....
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Agreed. Just because the author doesn't like playing video games anymore, doesn't mean he needs to get all nostalgic and blame it on modern gaming. There are very many sequels I enjoy.... .Civ 4, Doom 3, Silent Hunter 3, etc.... And there are also plenty of great original titles out there as well. i.e. Beyond Good & Evil.

Sure, I grew up on the 2600 like everybody else, but that doesn't mean if you plopped River Raid down in front of me I'd be happy to play it. Games evolve.

Chris_Morley said:
Well, there's ET the video game, of which there are about 5 million cartridges buried in the desert.
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lol. Best... video game scandel.... ever.
 
Ya know whats funny? Everyone cries and whines about the same old consoles, and then tells us how great N* is, and how dope the Rev will be, but when you ask everyone what they own they say ps2 and xbox, xbox360.

Anyone who does have a N*, has long since passed it on to kids/GF. There are the fan boys of course, but they are like us [H]ardforum people....few and far between.
 
Chris_Morley said:
Oh, I'm sure Super Mario 8, Zeda 10, Resident Evil 6, Donkey Kong Eleventy Billion, and Sonic Seventeen along with Metroid 15 will all be revolutionary on the Revolution.
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the ONLY trademark that i care for out of that list is Metroid. After that i haven't touched zelda since SNES same with Mario and RE.

I will tell you what i have been playing and busting my head over the holiday weekend.

Super monkey ball 2.

Damn world 10 is pissing me off!!
 
Chris_Morley said:
Oh, I'm sure Super Mario 8, Zeda 10, Resident Evil 6, Donkey Kong Eleventy Billion, and Sonic Seventeen along with Metroid 15 will all be revolutionary on the Revolution.
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They said no more Zelda in its current form, everyone agrees Resident Evil was just a rehash until part 4, Donkey Kong hasn't been updated since the 80's, and there hasn't been a Super Mario Bros. game in quite a while.
 
Chris_Morley said:
Breunor, you were 3 years old 22 years ago. I have been playing since I was four, and that was 21 years ago.

Again, I believe it's merely nastalgia. You weren't an alpha tester back then, you weren't quickly becoming disaffected with the review industry. You just played simple games through a child's eyes.

I agree with you about the NES. I spent hours with friends playing that console. But you know what? I moved on. Other platforms and games grabbed my attention. Going back now holds absolutely no interest for me. I find the NES boring now and would rather play something else.
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I still think Super Mario 3 is quite playable and varied. Not every old game is was popular due to revolutionary concept or technology.
 
Chris_Morley said:
No Donkey Kong since the 80's?

And c'mon...there are so many Super Mario games (based on the franchise), it's not even funny.
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Those games have the character Donkey Kong, but entirely different gameplay. Different genres, even. Soul Calibur II is the same as Legend of Zelda because it had Link?
 
Chris_Morley said:
Breunor, you were 3 years old 22 years ago. I have been playing since I was four, and that was 21 years ago.

Again, I believe it's merely nastalgia. You weren't an alpha tester back then, you weren't quickly becoming disaffected with the review industry. You just played simple games through a child's eyes.

I agree with you about the NES. I spent hours with friends playing that console. But you know what? I moved on. Other platforms and games grabbed my attention. Going back now holds absolutely no interest for me. I find the NES boring now and would rather play something else.
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Man, I don't know what your deal is. As a representative of this site you tend to come off very poorly in these forums at times.

I was 3 with the Atari 2600, and at 3 I could tear up at Taz, Pac-Man, and Warlords. Call me advanced, ask my parents if you'd like, but by 5 I owned my NES on day 1 and was already a serious gamer. I actually began writing NES reviews in our local paper by 7 yrs. old and it was a very popular section... so lay off, I have been at this for a very long time and am used frequently *still* on many software and hardware launches due to my reputation and friends in numerous companies, including the 360.

The whole "it's all nostalgia" argument is used so often as the counter, it's tired. It isn't nostalgia, many of those games were all about gameplay and design and nothing more. If you really want the game industry to continue the path it is on and to turn into the next Hollywood, then you have blinders on and are not seeing the bigger picture.

Let's cover a few things here:

Every feature of every console controller was "borrowed" from Nintendo. This alone means that without Nintendo's innovation in this area Sony and MS would most likely never progress, but instead be content to just keep things status quo. Status quo is NOT the foundation of fun.

The costs of 360 and PS3 titles is so high and timeframes so long that these two systems will see the lowest number of releases over the consoles lifepan. On top of that this ensures that no one takes a chance such as Katamari Damacy, but instead produces "safe" content. Look at the entire 360 launch lineup. Safe, cookie-cutter, titles. Add to this the now "popular" idea to start placing as much in-game advertising as possible to help defray costs and you start to drift farther and farther away from the heart of gaming. A diversion, a form of escapism.

When people come to my place the top items that get played are: my pinball machine, the Gamecube (for Donkey Konga or Mario Party), the NES, or the Atari 2600. That is out of literally almost every game system and game available. All of them are simple, fun, well designed, and easy to pick-up and play even if you've never played before. Try this with the Xbox 360 sometime, grab mom and hand her a controller and ask her to play PGR3/PDZ/COD2/Kameo/Madden/Etc. not only does she not WANT to play but she is bewildered with the difficulty of control and the complexity involved. This isn't just mom's but every average person who is not a gamer.

I hate to break it to you but us "hardcore" gamers are a very small number, we are very dedicated but very small. We like to think we are a juggernaut of a force, and companies make it seem that way for their benefit but the bottom will not hold by simply marketing to the "hardcore." Getting back to wide target markets with mass appeal is where the money is and it is also where the fun is.THIS is what those old systems had, NOT nostalgia... Think of all the good memories you had with your family and friends on the older systems... today's gamers don't have that. There is nothing to wax nostalgic about, because gaming now is a fairly singular experience even with online play. When you ask modern gamers for their favorite game moment.. a large majority say FF7. It was one of the last games to give players that feeling of days gone by, people still want that and respond to it... it is just not common right now.

We'll see how it all shakes out in the end, as a student of this industry I'm looking forward to seeing the final tally once all three systems are out and mature.
 
bruenor said:
What happened to simple and fun?
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But you see, back then, Combat wasn't "simple", that was cutting edge technology and entertainment for it's time.

bruenor said:
I see the indie development support from Nintendo being one of the biggest draws in the end...
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Agreed. And on the PC side of things, I see web distribution as a viable outlet for indie developers to get their games out without having to go through high-cost publishers. Hopefully this method of distribution will start putting new, and more risque, game titles in the hands of gamers.

Oh, and let me just say, Donkey Konga rules!
 
Another off the cuff game that does own

Donkey Konga.. tap tap tap tap tap tap...

The monkey ball and the stupid monkey inside that ball... grrrrrrrrr
 
PoweredBySoy said:
But you see, back then, Combat wasn't "simple", that was cutting edge technology and entertainment for it's time.



Agreed. And on the PC side of things, I see web distribution as a viable outlet for indie developers to get their games out without having to go through high-cost publishers. Hopefully this method of distribution will start putting new, and more risque, game titles in the hands of gamers.

Oh, and let me just say, Donkey Konga rules!
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Combat was very simple. Simple controls, simple gameplay, quick, easy to play... there were many more complex games of the time such as Defender, Battlezone, etc. even for the time Combat was simple and lots of fun.

Same with Warlords. We still regularly have multi-player Warlords battles. Very simple game, even for the time. Defend your castle knock the others out. However it brought diplomacy, begging, anger, hatred, laughs, and more out in the course of a game... all from essentially glorified Pong.

There is NOTHING WRONG with sequels, and this too is the tired argument used here. Sequels have been around forever and are welcomed when they bring something new and fresh each time. Look at the Mario series. each one fresh and solid independent of the others. Look at modern sequels.. more of the same with a few new weapons or modes or even LESS gameplay... yay.
 
There are a few flaws with the "sequelitis is killing gaming!!!1!1" mantra:

1) Are the sequels any worse than the original (sometimes they are sometimes they aren't) In the cases where the sequel is no worse then what all of a sudden made it a bad game? Some people might not already own the older version, or might want the upgraded eye candy. If it aint broke dont fix it.

2) Just because there are lots of sequels does not mean there aren't also original games out there. For the 360 Kameo is a great example, Condemned is another.


The author of the article draws in a few flawed arguments as well. He notes that if you want to have the harddrive but not the wireless controller or the HD cables you are forced into getting them anyways. The last time I checked the harddrive was 100$, and the core bundle was 100$ less than the premium. Also the HD cables have standard cables on them. So basically you are getting a free wireless controller and free HD cables. At the very worst you spend 15$ on a play and charge kit which basically turns your wireless controller into a wired controller.

The author goes to great lengths to seemingly blame microsoft for trying to screw gamers, when most of his arguments are flawed.


Sequels aren't a bad thing people, however a lack of original games might be. Just because Oblivion is the fourth in a series does not make it a bad game (yet to be seen). You can recycle the classic gameplay from older games while fine tuning it. If you have a new and compelling story to it, it will be a great game.



Before people continuing spouting nonsense about a gaming doomsday coming due to too many sequels consider this. At the turn of the century a US Senator lobbied to have the Patent Office closed down because everything had been invented, all music composed, all literature penned. He figured how could there possibly be anything new to do? Well boy was he wrong, just when you think there isn't anything new that can be done something comes along to smack you in the face.


...brace yourself for a smack in the face if you think sequelitis is the end to originality, we are merely in a dry spell.
 
And on the PC side of things, I see web distribution as a viable outlet for indie developers to get their games out without having to go through high-cost publishers. Hopefully this method of distribution will start putting new, and more risque, game titles in the hands of gamers.
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Exactly, downloadable freeware has tons of fun if you look for it. Can't remember the URL, but the game Mono by binary zoo I think it's a lot of fun and fairly different, whenever I have 10 minutes to kill I fire up that game. It's like asteroids but you are shooting at big blobs of color that splash paint on the background, the goal being to turn the background from black to completely white. Very cool looking and intense. Endless Fire is another good one, just google it. It's an infinite shooter (no levels) that learns from your playstyle. I've also been meaning to check out that ragdoll kung fu.
 
bruenor said:
Umm, read the last paragraph of my reply right above yours.
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ummm...your post was 1 minute before mine....last I checked I dont type 500 wpm, do the math....your post hadn't been posted when I started writing mine :rolleyes: my post was not a reply to yours...
 
bruenor said:
Man, I don't know what your deal is. As a representative of this site you tend to come off very poorly in these forums at times.
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Well, I stopped reading here. We have had one conversation before this, and one where you just up and quit because you didn't like dealing with someone who disagreed with you. As for your 'coming across poorly' comment...well, I don't know what to tell you. I think you have some issues if you think I've come across as anything other than respectful.
 
Chris_Morley said:
Well, I stopped here. We have had one conversation before this, and one where you just up and quit because you didn't like dealing with someone who disagreed with you. As for your 'coming across poorly' comment...well, I don't know what to tell you. I think you have some issues if you think I've come across as anything other than respectful.
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Oh shi! Hypocrisy!
 
I think that in terms of nostalgia and the good ol' days, it is a little of both. We all miss being young and discovering fascinating new worlds, so nostalgia does play into it. But at the same time the industry is certainly running out of ideas, and even when the gameplay is novel the presentation is not. Example: Kirby Canvas Curse on the DS. That game is a blast, but why is it a kirby game? To make it sell better. They could have created an entire new world with new art styles and new characters and the game would have worked fine. But instead we got another kirby game. The same thing could be said about a lot of sequels/rehashes, it's because the suits in marketing are all focused on branding.

I think that, on occasion, a sequel is called for. Sometimes it really is refreshing to play an old game on a new platform, where new technology enhances the experience. Mario Kart SNES to Mario Kart 64 was pretty cool, as MK64 is more fun, playable, and works with 4 people. 64 to GC to DS though is just sequel mongering. Worthwhile sequels don't happen often but I do enjoy it when they do.

In terms of fun consoles, I hope I'm not the only person with a texas instruments 99/4A computer. This thing is a blast as it's a full home computer with tons of games. It came out around 1980 I think, had built-in basic and even a speech add-on. These things can be had for uber cheap on ebay. Any "classic" gamer worth his salt should get a hold of one. If you want a totally unique game (really!) check out Zero Zap for it, it's a blast and a lot different from anything I've encountered.
 
pr0pensity said:
Oh shi! Hypocrisy!
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Please explain. I have had two other posts directed at Bruenor, and I challenge you to show where I have insulted him.
 
Sequels aren't a bad thing people, however a lack of original games might be. Just because Oblivion is the fourth in a series does not make it a bad game (yet to be seen). You can recycle the classic gameplay from older games while fine tuning it. If you have a new and compelling story to it, it will be a great game.
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The problem is that energy/time/money are being spent on sequels that could instead be spent on original games. Sequels in and of themselves are fine, but we are sacrificing originality for unneccessary sequels.
 
Chris_Morley said:
you just up and quit because you didn't like dealing with someone who disagreed with you.
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Chris_Morley said:
Well, I stopped reading here.
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I think "coming across poorly" meant your overall closed-minded attitude. He, on the other hand, replied with a full page of experience.
 
pr0pensity said:
I think "coming across poorly" meant your overall closed-minded attitude.
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Oh, I see. It's closed minded to disagree with someone. I'll never understand that kind of logic.

And excuse me if I don't feel like reading the rest of a post by someone who leads off with an ad homenim comment.

I have plenty of personal experience playing games, something I could expound upon going back to playing, and winning, matrix coordinate chess on the Apple IIe @ 4 years old. I don't need to have written articles on gaming to have an opinion. If it's your opinion that anyone other than Bruenor and those who agree with him should be posting in this thread, you're sorely mistaken.
 
Chris_Morley said:
Well, I stopped here. We have had one conversation before this, and one where you just up and quit because you didn't like dealing with someone who disagreed with you. As for your 'coming across poorly' comment...well, I don't know what to tell you. I think you have some issues if you think I've come across as anything other than respectful.
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Why stop there, I was giving my opinion? Please read the rest, a debate does require differing opinions... what I don't like is trying to turn things personal. That is not a valid way to debate. And yes, I refuse to get into useless arguments on the internet, I will bow out instead of getting caught up into it... it isn't worth my time or effort.

When I said you come across poorly, it was just in response to how you handle peoples opinions. The average [H] forumer can resort to lower tactics, but generally staff should keep a bit above it. It was just your comment about me being 3, as if that means anything or as if I had acted like I was a reviewer since 3.

or quotes like:

"Oh, I'm sure Super Mario 8, Zeda 10, Resident Evil 6, Donkey Kong Eleventy Billion, and Sonic Seventeen along with Metroid 15 will all be revolutionary on the Revolution."

"No Donkey Kong since the 80's?

And c'mon...there are so many Super Mario games (based on the franchise), it's not even funny."

They just seem a tad immature and don't further the discussion in any meaningful way.
 
If you have a problem with what I post on here I encourage you to take it up with Kyle. Thanks.

My comment about you being three was to point out an earlier statement I made in the thread about playing 'simple games through a child's eyes' and was high lighting my comment about nostalgia.
 
Chris_Morley said:
If you have a problem with what I post on here I encourage you to take it up with Kyle. Thanks.
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Did you read what I just said at all? I want to debate, but I want to debate properly. Even in the post where I said you come across poorly, I then furthered the discussion by about 6 paragraphs or so... You can make comments like the ones I quoted above, but then add something valuable.

We all have opinions, many differ, there is no one right or one wrong. These are just game systems after all, not life/death issues. Just relax and articulate your point, I will listen and respond fairly.
 
I more or less agree with everyone here.....

I haven't bought a consol since the day I got my Dreamcast and before that I had had a N64, PS1, SNES, NES, C64. Some of the best and most played games were on the NES and SNES because of the fun and ease of play.

I'm actually interested in the Revolution for the pure fact of playing those games again on a Nintendo system (yeah yeah I know I can play them with an emulator and I do), but Nintendo could clean up those games. Xbox360 does nothing for me, and PS3 looks great, but who knows what's real right now.
 
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