Getting Cold Feet--Should I RMA My DS3 for an Asus?

C

ceolstan

Weaksauce
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
72
I am upgrading from an old socket A mobo. Obviously, it's more than past time.

For the new build, I had planned to go with the following after having read good reviews and recommendations in the Anandtech guides:
  • GA-965P-DS3
    E6420
    Super Talent 2x1GB DDR2-800
    Seagate 320GB SATA HD
    XFX GeForce 8600 GTS (I thought I'd get the DX10 card and save switching later)
    LG Black 18X DVD+R
    Cooler Master Centurion
    PSU--to be determined, but I'm leaning toward an OCZ 600 or 700W because a good quality PSU is always important.
    Aftermarket cooling -- to be determined, but I'm leaning toward the Tuniq 120 + a NB heat sink
I will be loading XP (Vista is not supported yet at work, and I like work and home to have the same OS, plus XP has more mature driver support). I have not yet overclocked, but I like tinkering, and I'd like to try to squeeze more performance out of my system.

The 965Ps seem to be very good overclockers. The DS3 seems to have been reported as a good budget oc board. The problem is that it looks as if about 25% of the people owning these boards have had issues. There's a thread on anandtech that's about 95 pages long!

Now, I've printed out BillParrish's excellent TweakGuide. But it still seems as if there's no real middle ground with the boards. People either love them and have no troubles, or they hate them and have loads of trouble.

So, here are my questions.

  • 1. If I follow directions carefully (I'm good at this part) and do everything exactly as the directions say, will I get that first boot or can I get stuck with the cold boot issue (frankly what scares me the most).
    2. Should I RMA the board (it's not even opened yet) to get something with better customer experience? My only concern here is that the Asus, a comparable board, doesn't seem to have proportionally fewer complaints about it. It seems that OC'ing a board produces a love-hate relationship with the board, so no board is perfect.
    3. If I don't RMA the board, are there places in the installation where builders typically get into trouble?

Thanks in advance,

--ceolstan
 
WildFireXXII said:
So you haven't even tried it out yet? And 25% is far exaggerating it.
Click to expand...

If you look at the overclock database, it's got the highest # of people with that board (90) versus asus' board (57) in second place.

Because of the sheer number of people that actually have this board, of course you'll see more people talk about the issues regarding it. I have no issues here with my board and I'm sure you'll find many more people that have a similar experience.
 
I actually ended up dreaming about the building process.

The 25% number was based on reading customer reviews. I understand that a board that has more buyers will have more people posting about their issues. Heck, my current board is an Abit AN7, the board that came and went. Since everything worked on the first boot, I never bothered to flash a new BIOS, though most people needed to do so. I bought it as an overclocker, but never did, as I was on a fairly limited income and couldn't afford to replace a mobo (or cpu or anything) if things went south.

Now, however, I can replace a component if things really go wrong. I also don't need to get the system up and running immediately. I'll have the new build sitting in my study with an old CRT leftover from my husband's old pc (he never builds--too busy!). This gives me a test system, and affords me the luxury of tweaking the machine. We probably have enough old keyboards to start our own parts business. They're all ps2 keyboards, but that's no bad thing at this point.

--ceolstan
 
It's just a guess, but I would say 25% or more with DS3 rev. 3.3 have issues.Also a decent percent of the people who say they are very happy with the board only have mild overclocks. It seems like a matter of cetain combos of memory and CPU in the board that don't work well together. The 6420 should be OK, so it's just a question of whether it likes your memory or not.
 
It's more of a question if you're ABLE to RMA the board (assuming directly with Gigabyte, the 'egg should give you no problems). It's sitting around my room waiting STILL for a RMA # after like a week and a half.

I bought a P5N32-E SLi in the meantime and shot my 6420 up to 3.1 on stock cooling & ~1.39V in about 20 seconds. The only flaw in this board is getting it to POST first so you can change memory voltage so your uber sticks can boot.
 
Maybe you should at least give it a try.

PSU--to be determined, but I'm leaning toward an OCZ 600 or 700W because a good quality PSU is always important.
Click to expand...
That's overkill for your system.
 
It seems the DS3 3.3 doesn't play well with Micron D9 ram. If you don't plan on going to crazy overclocks get some non-D9 ram. I'm not sure if those ST sticks are D9's or not and I'm too lazy to look it up.
good luck!
 
Just do it.

I have two DS3 boards and they work just fine. Both overclock well, but I'm not trying to set the worlds record either.
 
I'm going ahead with the build.

Supposedly, the ST RAM has worked in the mobo. We'll see. The latest BIOS update is supposed to address some of the memory issues. I think the board I have will have shipped with the F10 bios. Again, we'll see. I have a functioning computer, so if things go south, I can afford to spend the time troubleshooting.

Final cooling involves the Tuniq 120 + an Evercool NB cooler. The PSU is an OCZ600W. zipzoomfly had it at a better price than the egg, and it had free shipping. Joy.

I expect all parts to be here by May 22, and I'll start the build as of May 25. I have a use-it-or-lose-it holiday I need to take, so with the upcoming Memorial Day, I'll have a 4-day weekend. I am hoping to get the machine up and running as of the 22nd, as my husband will be working all day, and it seems that system builders find it beneficial to get spouse+kids out of the house. We don't have the latter, but I definitely have the former, and he's an IT guy with tech skills. The tech skills make him impatient when dealing with the home computer system (too much like work and doesn't want to be bothered), which is why I'm the one who set up the network. ;)

The optical drive is IDE, which I've just read may be problematic insofar as writing is concerned, but as long as I can get the OS to install, I'll be a happy camper. I can always RMA the drive for a SATA optical drive--and get smaller cables in the case!

I'll post my experiences.

--ceolstan
 
Good luck!

I have the DS3 myself and I was able to OC my E6400 to 3.2Ghz on stock cooling with no problem. But the temps were way to high for me, nearing 58C IDLE and 65C under load. So I replaced the stock cooling with an Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro. Temps now are 45C Idle and 57C under Orthos load. Oh and this was done with the F7 BIOS.

So thats one experience to show you that the DS3 isn't an automatic DUD. I was able to get a very decent overclock. Hope the same happens for you!
 
It is my impression, an impression only, that most "cold boot" or no boot issues are caused by making a huge jump in OCing. What I mean is that 99.995% of the boards will boot at stock, then well, the first thing you want to do is try 8x 400 for 2.8 and BAM it works like a dream. Then the trouble starts when another big jump 9x400 8 x 450 etc is attempted. In my guide I have specific steps for determining max memory OC that also help quantify the boards FSB ability. This is done in small steps increasing the ability of the board to recover from a failed attempt. I suggest whatever you do you attack it rationally and go slow and take notes. Or, I could be full of crap.

Good luck, its a great board, probally less than .2% of the hardware is actually defective the rest is operator error, anyone who says different without internal Gigabyte returned-found defective reports, has no clue as to the manufacturing and testing procedures done in a modern electronics factory. That is not to say that some issues exist, the board should recover from anything we can set in the bios with a bios clear. It does appear that this is not the case with some appreciable percentage of boards. However I contend that a proper methodology in OCing will mitigate that issue. Or, I could be full of crap.
 
Thanks, BillParrish.

My first goal will be to build the computer, install XP, and then test the system. On Day One, all I care is whether or not I can boot and install the OS. I do not plan to proceed much further than that. I will then proceed to tweak the BIOS as per your guide, which seems extremely well laid-out.

I've never oc'd before, so I will want to take things incrementally. I have an old CRT I can hook up to the computer, as well as an old ps2 keyboard and mouse. I'll have to flash the BIOS via flash drive, as I'm not including a floppy in the build. If I absolutely need a floppy, I can cannibalize a floppy from this comp or my husband's ancient and obsolete Dell. No way will I flash from Windows, not since it looks as if any kind of interruption of the Internet signal can royally screw the flash. My ISP is a good provider, but it can't control whether or not some storm in the next state will knock out the signal to my state.

Best,

--ceolstan
 
You go girl !

Good stragety, actually I would just check your bios when you first boot, if its F7 or greater there is no compelling reason to upgrade it.

If you plan on running the stock heatsink at first, be aware it takes a LOT of pressure to seat the Heatsink push pins properly. So much it will hurt your thumb. I recommend mounting the heatsink to the board before it is installed in the case. I place the foam pad that normally comes in the motherboard box/packaging on a table top to cushion the board and let the pins pop thru and then in an X pattern push the heck out of the pins till you hear a distinct "click". then go around and push on them again. It is susprising hard to do and the board will even be a little "bent" when done properly.

Then flip if over and inspect where the pins popped thru the board, they all should look the same and you should clearly see the black inner "expansion pin" where it has been driven down by the pressure to expand the outer white "retension barbs".

... find it beneficial to get spouse+kids out of the houseand... he's an IT guy with tech skills.
Click to expand...

You are very wise (as an old IT guy with tech skills I can say this).


It sounds like you hae some tech skills yourself, so I am worried I will seem to be insulting but anyway, You have discovered step 1 of building a successfull system. Here is a bit more.

The kitchen table or a large work area is preferred, avoid carpteted areas.

Lay out all your parts in their packaging on the table with cpu and memory easy to find, save drive installions for last.

If necessary install the power supply in the case FIRST!. Turn the switch on the power supply ot the OFF postions. Plug it in the wall to a three prong outlet. You now should have a grounded case. Before you open or handle each component, just touch the inside of the case on exposed metal to eliminate any static charge. I wil even touch the mylar film bags stuff comes in to the bare metal before opening.

Install hs/fan to mb
install memory
before putting board in case, look at the front panel wiring instructions in the manual and identify the pins and there location on the motherboard, its a lot easier than once its in the case to see the tiny printing. If enough slack in the wires you might can even plug some of them in with the board next to the case.

If the case comes with red paper/fiber washers, intended to go under the heads of the screws that mount the mb in the case, dont use them. Obsolete and not needed and in fact are a hinderance to a good ground connection between the mb and case.

Carefully inspect the location of mb mounting holes and make absolutely sure the case standoffs are installed just where needed, no more, no less.

be carefull that the litte metal fingers on the i/o plate (you will almost certainly have to replace the one that came with the case with the one that comes with the mb) do NOT go inside any of the little connector housings mounted on the motherboard. I lay the case flat, and sorta drop the mb down and then to the rear lining up the holes in the i/o plate with the connectors on the back of the board. It is easy for the "little fingers" to go inside a usb or network connector and short something out. Just keep an eye on it and bend anything on the i/o backplate that is causing a problem out of the way.

Dont forget the 4 pin aux 12V connector.

all I can think of for gotcha's

Best of luck and let us know.
 
Thanks Bill.

It's hard to avoid carpet in my house, and the kitchen isn't an optimal workspace for this (the table is a very nice hardwood table). I've thought that I could use some of the paper grocery bags we use for recycling to cover up some of the carpeting. It's useful that the house is very small. Tiny, even.

Last build was my first, and while I read all the instructions about three times before I actually put the components anywhere, I mounted the mobo before turning stuff on. I decided that this time, I'd want to put the mobo assembly together (cpu, hs, ram, vid) outside the case to see if it posts, then mount it in the case and add the drives.

I thought I'd attach the Tuniq to the cpu from the get go, though. I'd have to look at how that will affect access to the mounting holes. That's a freaking huge heatsink!

The heatsinks, by the way, are the last to arrive.

So far, the funny for the build is that the case arrived. My husband looked at the box and said, "looks like a nice computer." "But honey," I reply, "that's just the box."

--ceolstan
 
movax said:
I bought a P5N32-E SLi in the meantime and shot my 6420 up to 3.1 on stock cooling & ~1.39V in about 20 seconds. The only flaw in this board is getting it to POST first so you can change memory voltage so your uber sticks can boot.
Click to expand...


So you trade one problem for another.....the thing to do would be to buy memory that will run at 1.8v at stock speeds so you can boot up properly before the overclocking begins.
 
TheRapture said:
So you trade one problem for another.....the thing to do would be to buy memory that will run at 1.8v at stock speeds so you can boot up properly before the overclocking begins.
Click to expand...

I have some vanilla-as-you-can-get RAM from a Dell I keep around just for this. And now I have it down to an art too...I haven't had to drop back to 1.8V memory in a long time after many mobo install/remove from the case whilst drilling holes and whatnot.

BillParrish said:
It is my impression, an impression only, that most "cold boot" or no boot issues are caused by making a huge jump in OCing. What I mean is that 99.995% of the boards will boot at stock, then well, the first thing you want to do is try 8x 400 for 2.8 and BAM it works like a dream. Then the trouble starts when another big jump 9x400 8 x 450 etc is attempted. In my guide I have specific steps for determining max memory OC that also help quantify the boards FSB ability. This is done in small steps increasing the ability of the board to recover from a failed attempt. I suggest whatever you do you attack it rationally and go slow and take notes. Or, I could be full of crap.
Click to expand...

In my case, it was definitely a defective board because I am somewhat certain that the motherboard is usually an inaudible, solid-state component (discounting any cooling fans). Gigabyte's *CONTINUED* refusal to take care of this makes me somewhat bitter as well.
 
In my case, it was definitely a defective board because I am somewhat certain that the motherboard is usually an inaudible, solid-state component (discounting any cooling fans). Gigabyte's *CONTINUED* refusal to take care of this makes me somewhat bitter as well.
Click to expand...

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In spite of the above, this is an issue, no doubt about it, as I mentioned the board should recover from anything we do to it with a cmos clear. I suspect the cmos/bios is becoming corrupted during the reboot/retry cycles and one is left with a boat anchor. I hope the above would fix that. My DQ6 has a backup bios and thus I have never had the issue and do not need the above utility. I would hope the utilty mentioned above would solve the issue, however it must be implemented by the user, is poorly documented and in general Gigabyte did a superb job of making it unknown to 99% of owners. I have yet to see a post where someone used this and I have seen every DS3/S3 post on this board. In fact I missed it and did not include it in my guide, I am going to fix that right now. I have no idea if this will resolve the cold boot issue but it sure seems like it is a step every DS3/S3 owner should take before starting any Bios changes.

That said, this issue is probally the #1 cause of returns and customer dissatisfaction with this board. I too am somewhat astounded that something has not been done, perhaps it has and does not work, whatever. Perhaps Gigabyte know the above utility will fix it but is too stupid to communicate it to users. /shrug The only thing I can suggest is to do what I did, (and I dont even have the issue), email Gigabyte marketing and complain like hell. What will get their attention is some statement to the fact that:

Dear Gigabyte Marketing
Concerning: The issue of a CMOS clear not working on 965P-DS3 after a failed change in BIOS settings.

"The lack of communication to your customers about the steps being taken to resolve or mitigate this issue, coupled with my bad product experience with this issue, will prevent me from considering your products in the future."

http://ggts.gigabyte.com.tw/nontech.asp
 
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