God Of War Designer Shuns Games With Stories

Far prefer games with storylines, but I suppose that's why I generally liked adventure games and rpgs more than most other genres.
 
Games must have a story even if it just carries the action. But with out a sorty the game could feel flat.Now Day of the Tentacle had a kick ass story! :)
 
He was right about one thing:

He's terrible at analogies.

If he loves the storytelling as much as he says (as opposed to making it come to life in the game), why doesn't he write a book?
 
For single player games I really don't care what the storyline is. I just play for the gameplay. Take Hitman for example, with all that clone crap...ok....where's my guns :p
 
a good example of a game that failed at story telling was Oblivion its supposed to be this huge open ended game.. but wait you cant make your own choices when it comes to the story you are forced to be good you get no choice in the matter.
 
Well, a storyline in a racing sim would be out of place BUT can still be done (NFS:MW) but yeah, there is the odd occassion where I can get by without a story (Marble Blast ;) ) but I generally prefer a story AND God of War had a great story.... must've come from everyone else on the design team ;)
 
Stories = better

But doesn't mean it has to true all the time. I think a careful balance is needed.

Metal gear solid 2 and 3 for example has a lot of story. But ...too much that for up to 30 minutes you can be sitting and watching.

RPGs/adventure games need a story.

FPS....well some story helps you want to move forward. A good story for more sales and lasting impression for sequals and wanting to buy more.Doom 3 had a little story but it was enough for me to say "hey, how does this all end" HL2. Great story to the point where I can't wait for more of the game. Same with FEAR. SiN has a story, but I didn't care for it so that left the action and, well, didn't care for the action either.

Arcade/Platform - Little story couldn't hurt. Rescue girlfriend? Ok! fight fight fight win :) BubbleBobble, i know I was saving someone but didn't care :D

I THINK though in the 3D realm of gaming, you need a story. The classic sprite gaming didn't need it really and was enjoyable. 3D realms, you need to really wonder why you are exploring this world that is 3D (immersion)
 
It is completely ludricous in some games. We are ruling out multiplayer games, simulators, etc.

Story lines are good for games that causes changes of tactics or "things" the player has to do. Half live definitely has to have a story, so does the quake franchises. Quake2 is memorable for making the player feel like he was the only person lucky enough to survive.

Homeworld had an excellent story. It also had an excellent instruction manual that gave the game world's history.

What this goes back to is the type of game attributing to what kind of storyline, if any, is needed. If I am playing a single player FPS then it is definitely an accomplisment in finding out the end of the story.
 
Will Wright is pretty much adament about the 'player' making their own story and that usually a game's story is pretty pathetic to begin with. When Will Wright introduced Spore at the 'GDC 2005' this is what he talked about. He said GTA:SA =p to its story.. he made his own and showed us it. He talked more about this is his stragedy and his idea of gaming is that the players will make their own stories and these our the ones they usually share over and over with their friends. Of course he said people will and do talk about the mission in GTA, but how times have you heard people talk about the things they did outside the missions? That is the players story.

Even Simcity and the Sims have some story elements to them, but its our own stories as the player which ultimately makes the game's story. This works the same in each game too... at least for me, one reason why i despise JRPGS, cause its just a movie and I dont ever feel like I am making my own story... just acting out scenes in a pre-defined story.
 
I like all my games to have some storyline in them. I play FPS mostly, and I far prefer games like Halo where there is a definite story and you are attempting to "finish the game" not just "kill everybody". There are exceptions (UT2003 anyone?) but for the most part, a story is a good thing. Ever heard of Radical Dreamers? Little-known rpg in the chrono series. It played like a text adventure with music and some graphics. I loved that game.

If anything, I think game developers should work on creating a GOOD story, rather than just saying screw it and focusing on gameplay. It's no wonder many people hate the storylines in games, some of them really suck.
 
This is one of the reasons I prefer mmorpg...especially ones like Darkfall where you can become anything you want.

Players make the story and you can contribute to it any way you want.
 
I enjoy a story, but I'm still trying to piece together that analogy
 
DarkfallFan said:
This is one of the reasons I prefer mmorpg...especially ones like Darkfall where you can become anything you want.

Players make the story and you can contribute to it any way you want.
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But you're not really making the story. You're just doing a quest someone else developed. If you die, how is that any different than dying from a game that isn't "choose your own destiny" gaming? Someone wrote those destinies.

2 games that come to the top of my head for good stories are HL2 and System Shock from the same genre. Why are those games so good? Because you took the role of the actor and you discovered a truly fleshed out world that someone put a lot of thought into. I'm sure many have played other forgetable FPSs.

Final Fantasy series. Same thing. It's like reading a book and you're turning (playing) the pages.

before anyone starts saying "I hate those games" just pick a game with a story you like. I'm pickign those.
 
Jaffe is basically getting mentally tired of the challenges good stories take to develop. Creating a good story within a game is actually very hard. Timing, element, relation to gameplay, intrigue...all these things have to be present and in good form in order to make a good and immersive story that outlines a game. And it has to be done over and over and over again within the same game to be successful.

God of War is the best game EVER made and half of it is due to the story. From the onset, the story grabs you before anything else does. Besides arcade games in the purest sense, all good games tell a story... Metal Gear Solid, Half-Life, God of War, F.E.A.R., Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Onimusha series...any some others, all these games feel epic simply because story gave you a reason to play and drive to get past a certain level just to see what happens.

Storytelling is an art,.... ok, GOOD storytelling is an art, an artform that eventually takes its toll as, sadly, David Jaffe finds out. :(
 
I think a story is what can make or break a game. Why was Half-Life 2 so good? Because it had a great story? What about RPGs? What are your favorite RPGs? I bet games like FF3(6), FF7, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana come to mind. While they offered great gameplay, what really draws you to them is the great story. Playing a video game is like playing a movie, and without a story; what's the point?

I think, rather than trying to take away stories, games should try to EXPAND on them. Offer branching storylines, and alternate endings. Instead of taking the story out of the games, we should be allowing the story to flow and adapt with the game.

That's just my $0.02, but then again, I'm just the target audience now, arn't I? ;)
 
Personally, I think most games could benefit from a better storyline, and more of it. Could you play a 40 hour game without a good storyline? Would pressing the same 3 buttons get tiring after a bit with no point?

Stories give the game a point, and make them more immersive. In case you were wondering, Bioware is my favorite company ever ;]
 
I probably would have agreed with this guy before playing MGS3:Snake Eater.

I think there are so many games with terribly poor story lines. And, I DO see what he's saying. Think UT2004, is it about the story? No. So I think there are story games and there are non story games, I'm fine with both.

But yeah, back to MGS, the game was driven by a wonderfully thought out plot. Without it, the game wouldn't have been half the game it now is (was, whatever...).

My $.02
 
I think that shunning the "story" element of video games is like taking off a leg off a chair. No developer should ever throw out the core elements of a game such as the storyline, IMO. It's a lazy and irresponsible excuse to put things off like that. Some people say "it's all about gameplay that matters" or "it's all about the story." But to me, "It's all about everything." That's what makes games so complex and immersive in comparison to any other media I've experienced.

A book is nice and descriptive, and leaves most of the imagination to the reader, but you can't immersed with music, graphical settings etc.(it's all up to your imagination) Movies, TV shows, etc. Can provide such a thing, but lacks interaction and usually depth unless its an ongoing series. If a game is done well enough, it can provide all of that, and also be fun to play. A video game done right requires the most work out of any type of entertainment media out there. Every aspect of the game requires talent and skill, and creativity to be done right, including the storyline. There's always a game out there, no matter how great it was, it was lacking in "something."

FFVI and FFVII (my fav FF games) Had immersive music, graphical scenes and awesome storylines, but lacked, IMHO, good gameplay. Hell, the Mega Man X series had everything excellent, but the storyline could have had more depth. Capcom's remake for the PSP, called Maverick Hunter X, attempted to expand the original storyline, which was excellent, IMO. StarCraft is one of my favortie games out there. Not only did Blizzard manage to make an excellent story, but you can get into (good) multiplayer action so much that you forget the story of the game existed. The graphics was lacking however, but it was somewhat of a blessing. I can write more but I hate making walls of text. :D
 
Some games can get by OK without a story, the original Unreal Tournament didn't have one that I can recall, but it was still a fun game, same with Q3A. Then again, some FPS games manage to integrate one very well, the story in Sin really drew me in for example.

Then you have games like Gran Turismo, Madden, or sim games, that don't really need nor warrant a story line.

Fighting games like Soul Calibur and DOA4 seem to try to integrate a story, but it is usually so minor and secondary that it might as well be forgettable.

For any other game, a story is a must, and a good story at that. I got about two or three hours into Oblivion before I was completely bored with it and I haven't touched it since. On the other hand, I picked up Dragon Quest VIII the other day, and from half an hour in I was completely hooked and haven't been able to put it down, mainly because it actually has a story, and one that draws you in at that.

Adventure games can always benefit too. Parasite Eve for example is an awesome game equally because of the creative gameplay elements (building your own weapons for example) as well as for a good story.
 
I have to put my vote towards a good storyline. the story lets you know you have an objective/goal, otherwise your just running around mindlessly killing things, sorry but I dont find that much fun, I need a goal, something to shoot for. personally i cant see any single player game that is worth playing that has not had a good story to it, there are a few exceptions to this, Such as Arcade type games, like Galaga, Pinball, as well as casino games.
 
I'd have to say that if a game isn't majorly story driven, it has majorly goal-based gameplay.

Think about the major games that aren't really story-driven: MMOs, sidescrollers, sims, and so on. You're always striving for that next level/piece-of-gear/win, so it appeals to those with a competitive streak.
 
For me, a story is essential for games. It give the game purpose, a sense of direction, and hopefully, some added entertainment. If I just want to shoot it up, kill demons, etc... I will play online against real people where it is a challenge.
 
I agree with the consensus. While I enjoy the pick-up-and-play games (racing, UT, fighting games, etc) as well as the next guy, my favorites are games that engross me with their story; FFVII, PE's, SoM,GoW,etc...Even if the graphics play second fiddle. This is not always the case though, as both can co-exist such as GoW, MGSs, DMCs (not 2). :)

My analogy is this: Imagine watching Law & Order opposed to watching LOST. Sure, you can sit and watch any episode of Law and Order and enjoy it for what it is, but something that is story-driven makes you much more enthused about continuing watching or playing, curious and excited to find out where it will take you.

You can make a case for prefering non-linear gameplay in still story-driven tites as well (such as KOTOR or Jade Empire).

As for this quote:
Jaffe said:
"...taking elements from other media and trying to squish those elements into a product that- if you do everything right- MIGHT just have one tenth the emotional impact as what you can get from more traditional media (like film, tv, or books)."
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While surely some game stories may as well just be a movie or book, or in other cases could be left out altogether (fighting games), there are cases when an emotional scene can draw you in to the gameplay, through vicarious interaction, creating a feeling more intense than wanting to whip through the next chapter of a book or seeing a conclusion of a movie.

Jaffe, listen to me...When Aerith/Aeris died, (mostly) everyone cried, and it is why FFVII is an example why video games can be some of the best "experiances" you'll ever have. If you play as a character, and feel some kind of emotional connection, games can far exceed other mediums in all respects.
 
hwhacker said:
Jaffe, listen to me...When Aeris died, (mostly) everyone cried, and it is why FFVII is an example why video games can be some of the best "experiances" you'll ever have.
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*COUGH* pussy *COUGH* :D

I kid. I recall it vaguely, but I was in college at the time so I was usually either drunk, stoned or having sex while I was playing the game. ;)
 
:p

It's all good, I respect those of us whom either were not/are not emo or have matured past the point of childhood and even young-adult tendancies. :D

I was a young-in at the time myself (7th or 8th grade) and while that sentence may have been overdramatic, I think it proves a fair point. Vicarious emotion through story + interaction = unparalled entertainment.

For the record, I was having sex and getting stoned too at that point, just not while playing FFVII...At least not the former...That may have been akward. If you were enjoying the former and the later simultaniously, massive power to you good sir, and mad props. :)
 
Also, for good measure, I don't see anything wrong with a game that plays out like a movie. You pay $20 for a new release DVD, and it lasts two hours. You pay $50 for a new release RPG, and it will last a minimum of 30 hours, sometimes easily more. I am only in like the third town in Dragon Quest VIII and I already have 7 hours logged in the game, this game could easily last 80 hours plus. Even if the game does play out like a movie or a book, you definately get your money's worth from it.
 
the dude has a point and then he doesn't

as far as selling a game goes, hes incorrect, a story will drive people mad to find out what happens next, not neccessarily making it a good game, but the story good, regardless of the fact of bad gameplay having a good story line and bad gameplay can make a good game

having a game concentrate entirely on no story and just the gameplay can make for a really fun and entertaining game (hi 2 u quake2), and having developers spend more time on the actual game and the mechanics of the game and not worry about having a plot that everyone can enjoy would probably help create more unique style games.

so he has a point and he doesn't

one the game would probably get beaten more as only a single player, and second the game would be more fun and probably last longer with out one, i mean how much of a story did CS have? or DoD, or COD, or BF, or GRAW have
 
Absolutely agreed on everything except the later being "more fun". I think they are of different mindsets of entertainment; fighting/shooting/racing and story-based games, with the occassional exception. I would call them both equally enjoyable, just for different people/times depending on what they like and how they are feeling. I enjoy both, but I know many that only enjoy one or the other. It's like action movies vs. a art house drama. Diffrent strokes.

Lasting longer is also relative. I may play an story-driven (perhaps sub-par graphics but not-necessarily mechanics) RPG once relatively quickly, and it last 80 hours, and like-wise repetitively play a competitive graphics/mechanics-driven game an equal/greater/lesser amount of time, although over the course of a longer period in smaller increments.

You're totally right though, single-player versus a game you play online or with a friend in your home. The former would benefit more from a story in the majority of the time. There certainly are some good examples of exceptions on both sides though, most notabley the more story-driven non-linear MMORPGs out there now, and that will probably be the next big thing in gaming.

The point is though, to disregard any one style; linear story, non-linear story, no story though, makes no sense. It will alienate a large group, as all have fans. It seems startling and disheartening that someone that created one the best (and successful) of the linear stories would suddenly dismiss it completely. That's like Capcom saying no-more 2D games, or Miyamoto suddenly denouncing Mario/Zelda's style of play.
 
Let me sum up my thoughts thusly: David Jaffe is just burnt out and really doesn't know what he's talking about. Secondly, thank goodness he's not designing GoW2 or 3 and Cory Barlog is doing it instead.

So in the end, Jaffe would rather do action games. Big whoop. Not much of a story actually.
 
I get bored rather quickly with FPS games if they don't have at least some sort of story to carry the gameplay along. And RPGs or RTS games without a story are just a waste of time and money. Sometimes I get bored with the gameplay but still want to finish the story so I go get a cheat code or something just to see the end of the game. I like having the story be that involving...
 
Logan321 said:
I get bored rather quickly with FPS games if they don't have at least some sort of story to carry the gameplay along. And RPGs or RTS games without a story are just a waste of time and money. Sometimes I get bored with the gameplay but still want to finish the story so I go get a cheat code or something just to see the end of the game. I like having the story be that involving...
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Well an RTS like StarCraft does pretty well without the storyline IMO. When I'm on battle.net, I forget about all of the things that happen in their "universe" and focus more on having fun. The fact that Blizzard put a lot of effort in creating a compelling story, alongside with their excellent game, is what really impresses me to this day.

Even the simplest of games can be amusing with some sort of story behind them. It seems that people don't like stories in fighting games, but the KOF series used to be amusing (before '99).
 
I think it really just depends on whether you have the time, the will, and the imagination to come up with a good storyline. That seems to be the critical difference between film and gaming with respect to storytelling. A film with a bad story is generally lame. A game with a lame story can still be a good game. I hold Unreal tournament and Q3A up there as 2 of my favorite games of all time and I haven't even touched the single player in either. On the other hand Half Life 2, Quake 4, Doom3, FEAR, and Prey are some of the most involving and gripping stories I've experienced. That's where the advantage in a good single player resides. When the story is truly good it becomes more than just something you view from the outside like a book or a movie. It's something you view from the inside. Even if the story is already set and you can't change what's going to happen, you still move through it as if you were experiencing it yourself. I guess in the end it just depends where you want to put your focus. Personally I have had no problem with games that have no single player storyline, or one's that do as long as it's not crappy, and if it is crappy I just stick to multi.

-BombrMan
 
Steve said:
I have read this now, more than once, to make sure I had a grip on what this guy is saying and I just don't get it. Don't most people actually want a storyline in their games? Is it just me, or do you guys want a story in your games?



http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/42941
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I wouldnt read to much into it, David is working on his new psp title which supposedly involves the player more emotionally attached without actually telling a full story. (if you read about his "Project HL" psp title, it sounds pretty promising, and I cant wait for it) Seems his attention is fully going towards his new mystery title so wouldnt be surprised if we hear more talk about it in the future. On another forum, regarding this specific blog update, he stated
David Jaffe said:
I am not losing my marbles. I am LOVING my job now more than I have in years. I am just sharing the process of change that I- as a designer- am going thru.

I 100% appreciate that not everyone will care, and that is fair and makes sense to me. But at least acknowledge that I am just posting on my blog for the fun of it (and I do enjoy it). You don't gotta read it!
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Just sounds like he is going through a "phase" to me.
 
Nothing ruins a game more than a crappy storyline. I'm afraid a story is what keeps me playing. Games without a good storyline are like sex without foreplay and a climax. It's what makes level after level worth drudging through. It's playing the hero. Something real life rarely gives opportunity for (and thank goodness). Otherwise, just shooting virtual guns would get old. Why solve puzzles if there isn't a means to an end or purpose in it? A story is what gives all this a veritable "backbone".

I find that a game with a great story on a "weaker" game engine is far funner to play than a visually stunning game, on a great graphics engine, with a lame or no storyline.

Personally, I was very frustrated at the poor ending of Half Life 2 and it's vague story line. It could have been so much better if they had taken a narrative approach to it to fill in the history gaps. Frankly, the first few seconds of Episode one, when Alyx finds Freeman in the rubble and says "Doctor Freeman?", would have been a much better place to end Half Life 2 and not just leave you hanging saying "What the...?"
Nevertheless, Episode One did have a proper ending and a bit better storyline, albeit still vague.

There are only a small hand full of games that could get away with no or little story. Those are strategy games, racing games and reflex challenging 2D action games like the 80's had with Pacman, Space Invaders, Galaga, Arkanoid, etc. Those are "score the most points" games. However, in virtual reality games where you are the player, a story is very necessary and the better the story is told the better the game.

The graphics in a 3D, story based, game merely enhance the storyline. They don't make the game. The heart of the game and it's pull to make you finish it is the story, not how many polygons it's pushing or nifty shader effects it has; those things just make it more immersive and exciting to play. A story is why the next level is desireable to play.
 
without a good story line, would you have played max payne. Yeah the game was good even without it, but became one of the best games of the year because of the story. You just wanted to see payne get his revenge, and loved every bit of it. Thinking about it now makes me want to pull it out and play it again.
 
since reading this whole thread, I thought i should also say something about oblivion.

Oblivion was a fun game, a really fun game, but the story was lacking, the feel from morrowind was gone. I loved morrowind, I loved the story, I loved how you could go freeroaming, completing odd quests. oblivion you can do the same thing, but it doesnt feel as good doing it, every time you level feels like taking a step back, every quest complete felt less then satiscatory(I dont know why this is:confused: ). After beating the game I was thinking,"Thats it". :confused:
 
As far as storyline goes 9/10 games will do with a paragraph worth of story. It's all about gameplay. Or make the story just happen in the game. I hate reading when I'm playing a game. If I want to read, I'll read a book. Half-life did this well.
 
A story is like a rubber patch you put on a leaky tire. It stops people escaping your game when you fail to do so with the actual gameplay. If you buy shitty tires that leak all the time, you start to get the opinion that all tires need patches. And if you buy shitty patches, you probably buy tires because you see ads for them somewhere and your puny monkey brain cannot resist the urge to immitate TV. If you're too young to remember back when you could buy a decent tire, if you saw one today you'd proably laugh and say, "What a goofy, old fashioned tire! It doesn't even have a patch on it! Now take a look at this tire! It has a flimsy Japanese patch on it a mile wide, and LOVE IT!"

I agree with Jaffe. A properly done game provides itself with all the drama and story it needs. If you have to start tacking on a cheesy plot that wouldn't even cut it on some Space Channel made for TV movie, your game just isn't doing its job right. It needs a rubber patch just to keep all the air from rushing out and playing outside or doing the dishes or going to sleep.

Story telling with games is a tricky fucking business. Almost nobody in the entire industry has any idea how to even begin, and maybe one or two know how to pull off start to finish anymore. The way NOT to do it is try and take a Holywood script and stick it on a game. Even if you try and do a Choose Your Own Adventure, all you've got then is the same fly-spec of talent being spread over even MORE bad script, watering it down even further.

Why do you think sporting events are fun to watch in real life? Fun to participate in? What about a game like Street Fighter, or Risk, or Ikaruga, or Civilization? Now there's a game that is perfect. A game is a contest, a ritual tournament where decisions made are tested for their worth and judgement is delivered. Little, miniature isolations of human life. Civ starts with a single decision, where do I settle my first base? And like a logarithmic curve, like a growing organism, each moment from then on brings new decisions which compound and fold in on eachother, making a layered cake of choices so tasty and delicious. And the PERFECT thing, the master stroke about these decisions is that layered on top of a purely mathematical series of choices is a self writing story. By letting a variable represent a city, and another a soldier and another a tower, your many choices spell out the choices of an entire people, a new history that you can watch unfold. The way to do story in games is not to tell the players the story, but to let the players tell the story to themselves.
 
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