GTA IV Offline Activation Review

Inacurate said:
If you are here to discuss, I will respond to your post. But from the tone of your words, I don't gather you are. If you are though, please let me know and I will happily share my opinions on the matter.

The only thing I will comment on, is just because a word regurgitates into a new spelling or otherwise becomes socially acceptable, does not mean it is ok. In your book then, it is ok to drive over the established speed limit because it was just "someone who decided driving that fast was bad?"
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Yes, I'm here to discuss. What else does this forum exist for? I just don't understand how a crack makes me a pirate. If something's broken, what's wrong with fixing it? Have I caused anyone a loss of money? No.


Morality is based entirely on what's socially acceptable. Always has been, always will be. What's wrong with driving faster than the posted limit is that it's irresponsible. Irresponsibility is immoral, no?
 
The BS w/ the PC version of this almost makes me want to just by a 360 and call it a day.

If there are any improvements to the graphics, they are definatly held down by all the other problems.
 
pxc said:
I can't think of a single case of someone being prosecuted under DMCA for using a crack on a game they purchased. In any case, they are not the same because one is a possible criminal activity under the DMCA punishable by fines and/or jail time, and the other is a tort with possible statutory damages in a civil trial. Not even close.
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And this is part of the problem! Letter of the law and spirit of the law silliness.

To much lawyer-speak has made things way to complicated. What happened to honor, in good faith, etc etc?

I know...I know, I am a naive idjit who is always hoping for the good in things. Anyone selling any bridges? Maybe from Alaska to Russia... :D
 
Inacurate said:
And this is part of the problem! Letter of the law and spirit of the law silliness.

To much lawyer-speak has made things way to complicated. What happened to honor, in good faith, etc etc?

I know...I know, I am a naive idjit who is always hoping for the good in things. Anyone selling any bridges? Maybe from Alaska to Russia... :D
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What happened to "the customer is always right" "innocent until proven guilty" and "upholding your end of the deal" These companies aren't the innocent little victims they make themselves out to be. All they care about is the dollar they can get from you and once they have it you can go to hell for all they care. Support and customer satisfaction mean very little to them anymore. They force their legitimate customers to jump through hoop after hoop in the name of "anti-piracy" as if they were the criminals and yet they have done absolutely NOTHING to prevent piracy.



Well, Russia is just right outside Governor Palin's house, maybe someone will build that bridge :D
 
ryan_975 said:
Yes, I'm here to discuss. What else does this forum exist for? I just don't understand how a crack makes me a pirate. If something's broken, what's wrong with fixing it? Have I caused anyone a loss of money? No.


Morality is based entirely on what's socially acceptable. Always has been, always will be. What's wrong with driving faster than the posted limit is that it's irresponsible. Irresponsibility is immoral, no?
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I am glad to hear that! :) Some people around here think forums are just for spouting their arguments and opinions and not DISCUSSING them, being open to having their mind changed. That's not discussion! ;)

To me your post came off a little bit leaning that way, I apologize for the stereotyping, but people these days...ya know?

Ah but the problem with defining morality based on what is acceptable, is that over time the general populous gets desensitized to what they see, hear and read. People no longer voice their objections to the content, as it is simply easier to ignore it and not get labeled a whiner or complainer.

So just because something doesn't stir up a response, and seems to be accepted, does not make it socially acceptable! You follow?

It is a growing trend in America to not object at all to anything and ignore or avoid, because the moment you open your mouth you get labeled, and in 95% of those times the label fits. The people calling others whiners and complainers, are really helping to trample our rights as free people by causing people to be ashamed or afraid to speak up when an injustice is seen or done. The people witnessing such an act, don't want to be embarrassed or otherwise labeled, so they say nothing and since no one takes a stand, it continues!

I saw Windows Vista Ultimate in a B&M store the other day, according to the sticker price it was ".10" I brought a copy( empty box, you know how it is ) up to the register and had the clerk ring it up. Sure enough, it came up as ten cents. He looked up, about to say something and before he could I said "You might want to check into that, ya" and walked away shaking my head. I had the decency to point out a mistake without trying to capitalize on it. The moral here, is that doing the RIGHT thing is NEVER a wrong thing. Doesn't matter what anyone else says. Had I not done that, who knows what could have happened? Someone lose a job? They have to increase the price of something else? Some moronic sue happy customer gets a copy for 10 cents when the the product is obviously simply inadvertently priced wrong!
 
ryan_975 said:
Can someone explain how downloading a crack to play a game that was purchased equates to piracy? That's like saying because I have uTorrent installed I'm a pirate even though all I mostly use it for is to download Blizzard updates because of how horrid their downloader is. The rest of its use is for the occasional Ubuntu or Fedora downlaod.
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Well, assume for a moment people actually read and followed the EULA that you agree to when you install the game. Within most of those these days, it says if you alter the software you are installing in anyway for any reason, it is illegal. There is a lot of debate on whether or not the EULA is legal itself, but as far as I am concerned it is the companies right to say I can't modify their software. Anything past that( DRM issues ) is another topic of discussion!

ryan_975 said:
I don't care if I count as a sell or not. I want to play the damn game that I bought. It's less of an inconvience to crack the game than it is to try and convince some policy parrot to let me return an opened copy.
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LOL @ parrot. Agreed, but that still doesn't make it right. People justify it however they want, but doing the wrong thing is still the wrong thing. I feel for people who bought the game and can't play, I really do. But by cracking the game and not going through the problems others are, the publisher is not hearing about it. They are not worried and can claim a "small number of users were affected."

ryan_975 said:
I don't care if the DRM that's cracked is counted as a success or not. It's removed on my system if it causes a problem.
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Not quite sure what you are trying to get at with this comment?

ryan_975 said:
I don't care if it violates the EULA since my inability to play the game pretty much prevents them from upholding their end of the contract.
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See two comments above. :D Though to add, because someone doesn't hold up their end...doesn't mean you get to break the contract either. If another party can't hold up their end, and as the buyer you perceive they are not going to be able to do so in a timely fashion to your liking, you return the product and walk away. A malfunctioning product should be repaired or returned by or to the manufacturer. If you are unahppy with the product, return it and let them know about!
 
Inacurate said:
I am glad to hear that! :) Some people around here think forums are just for spouting their arguments and opinions and not DISCUSSING them, being open to having their mind changed. That's not discussion! ;)

To me your post came off a little bit leaning that way, I apologize for the stereotyping, but people these days...ya know?

Ah but the problem with defining morality based on what is acceptable, is that over time the general populous gets desensitized to what they see, hear and read. People no longer voice their objections to the content, as it is simply easier to ignore it and not get labeled a whiner or complainer.

So just because something doesn't stir up a response, and seems to be accepted, does not make it socially acceptable! You follow?

It is a growing trend in America to not object at all to anything and ignore or avoid, because the moment you open your mouth you get labeled, and in 95% of those times the label fits. The people calling others whiners and complainers, are really helping to trample our rights as free people by causing people to be ashamed or afraid to speak up when an injustice is seen or done. The people witnessing such an act, don't want to be embarrassed or otherwise labeled, so they say nothing and since no one takes a stand, it continues!

I saw Windows Vista Ultimate in a B&M store the other day, according to the sticker price it was ".10" I brought a copy( empty box, you know how it is ) up to the register and had the clerk ring it up. Sure enough, it came up as ten cents. He looked up, about to say something and before he could I said "You might want to check into that, ya" and walked away shaking my head. I had the decency to point out a mistake without trying to capitalize on it. The moral here, is that doing the RIGHT thing is NEVER a wrong thing. Doesn't matter what anyone else says. Had I not done that, who knows what could have happened? Someone lose a job? They have to increase the price of something else? Some moronic sue happy customer gets a copy for 10 cents when the the product is obviously simply inadvertently priced wrong!
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Desensitization and re-sensitization happen in cycles. Society swings from extreme to the other overtime and morality swings with it. Sixty years ago divorce was an unspeakable word, children were to be seen but not heard, and penises didn't touch without dire consequence to their owners' health. Today, divorce is quite the norm and thrown around as a threat and a joke, children control their parents, and homosexuality is to praise while heterosexual should be ashamed of themselves for breeding. But go back to the Roman empire and you'll see a lot of today's societal attitudes present then as well. Go back before that and you'll see the same strict wrath of God type of society that ruled this world for 800 years after the Roman Empire fell.
 
Inacurate said:
Well, assume for a moment people actually read and followed the EULA that you agree to when you install the game. Within most of those these days, it says if you alter the software you are installing in anyway for any reason, it is illegal. There is a lot of debate on whether or not the EULA is legal itself, but as far as I am concerned it is the companies right to say I can't modify their software. Anything past that( DRM issues ) is another topic of discussion!



LOL @ parrot. Agreed, but that still doesn't make it right. People justify it however they want, but doing the wrong thing is still the wrong thing. I feel for people who bought the game and can't play, I really do. But by cracking the game and not going through the problems others are, the publisher is not hearing about it. They are not worried and can claim a "small number of users were affected."



Not quite sure what you are trying to get at with this comment?



See two comments above. :D Though to add, because someone doesn't hold up their end...doesn't mean you get to break the contract either. If another party can't hold up their end, and as the buyer you perceive they are not going to be able to do so in a timely fashion to your liking, you return the product and walk away. A malfunctioning product should be repaired or returned by or to the manufacturer. If you are unahppy with the product, return it and let them know about!
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The problem is, once I open that box, I can't return it. I can't just walk away from the contract. So I do what I have to make the best of a bad situation. What am I going to, sue the store? Their policy is in plain site most of the time, and nearly all stores have it, so there's no shopping around for an acceptable deal. If the developer's willing to accept a return, the great, but that's few and far between. Some just offer a partial refund, so how's that fair or even right? The rest just offer "credit" to buy another one of their products that I'm probably just going to have to return for more credit if I'm not to break their golden EULA. So I should just quit buying software. Piracy is a bad bad thing, but it's developers reaction to it that's causing them lost sales and unsatisfied customers.
 
ryan_975 said:
What happened to "the customer is always right" "innocent until proven guilty" and "upholding your end of the deal" These companies aren't the innocent little victims they make themselves out to be. All they care about is the dollar they can get from you and once they have it you can go to hell for all they care. Support and customer satisfaction mean very little to them anymore. They force their legitimate customers to jump through hoop after hoop in the name of "anti-piracy" as if they were the criminals and yet they have done absolutely NOTHING to prevent piracy.

Well, Russia is just right outside Governor Palin's house, maybe someone will build that bridge :D
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I think that adage went the way of the dinosaur like the need for Unions! There are so many laws passed that protect consumers, that the scale has been tipped and we are very well protected.

Companies now have to take into account all the bogus complaints and returns they are going to have to eat, because a word was off in an advertisement and since the belief is that companies are not allowed to make mistakes, when they do they should HAVE to eat it.

The reason they care about those dollars is for what I stated above. What came first, the chicken or the egg? It is a vicious circle between company and consumer, and greed drives both parties. The company has to spend money on making sure things are politically correct and "legalized" so some idjit with just enough sense to realize they can sue or get something for free, is unable to do so easily. They have to spend money on protecting themselves from the idjits or the world and the ones who just don't have any common sense.

So while I think some companies are innocent, the more popular ones are always going to have someone upset with them and arguing they are the worst place in the world. And in most cases, I think these people in the first place were trying to get something from the company they shouldn't have been and are now just pressing the issue because they can.

SecuROM prevents piracy, DRM measurements prevent second hand sales. SecuROM has only recently started doing both, and in the case of this game here, it looks like they have done an excellent job at preventing people from enjoying the game if they did not legally purchase it! However......they also seemed to have done the same for the people who have legally purchased it! LOL....

They have to go into this thinking people are going to acquire for free, which is a good way to go into things. But the choice they are making for preventing people from doing just that, is a horribly planned or played out one.
 
Inacurate said:
I think that adage went the way of the dinosaur like the need for Unions! There are so many laws passed that protect consumers, that the scale has been tipped and we are very well protected.

Companies now have to take into account all the bogus complaints and returns they are going to have to eat, because a word was off in an advertisement and since the belief is that companies are not allowed to make mistakes, when they do they should HAVE to eat it.

The reason they care about those dollars is for what I stated above. What came first, the chicken or the egg? It is a vicious circle between company and consumer, and greed drives both parties. The company has to spend money on making sure things are politically correct and "legalized" so some idjit with just enough sense to realize they can sue or get something for free, is unable to do so easily. They have to spend money on protecting themselves from the idjits or the world and the ones who just don't have any common sense.

So while I think some companies are innocent, the more popular ones are always going to have someone upset with them and arguing they are the worst place in the world. And in most cases, I think these people in the first place were trying to get something from the company they shouldn't have been and are now just pressing the issue because they can.

SecuROM prevents piracy, DRM measurements prevent second hand sales. SecuROM has only recently started doing both, and in the case of this game here, it looks like they have done an excellent job at preventing people from enjoying the game if they did not legally purchase it! However......they also seemed to have done the same for the people who have legally purchased it! LOL....

They have to go into this thinking people are going to acquire for free, which is a good way to go into things. But the choice they are making for preventing people from doing just that, is a horribly planned or played out one.
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The problem is second hand sale is a right granted to the consumer by law (first sale doctrine). So using DRM to prevent a consumer from selling a "work" they've purchased is breaking the law. Secondly, SecuROM has done absolutely nothing to stop piracy. It hasn't even slowed it down. The most recent SecuROM disaster that comes to mind was Bioshock. It was cracked at zero hour because of the demo. Someone in this thread said a crack was available within 'minutes' of GTA IV's release (while I believe at best it was hours). All this does is piss off the consumer and give something for code junkies to do. Piracy is even more rampant that it ever has been and the protection these companies seek so much is about as good as pointing a loaded gun at your own foot instead of the muggers.
 
ryan_975 said:
The problem is, once I open that box, I can't return it. I can't just walk away from the contract. So I do what I have to make the best of a bad situation. What am I going to, sue the store? Their policy is in plain site most of the time, and nearly all stores have it, so there's no shopping around for an acceptable deal. If the developer's willing to accept a return, the great, but that's few and far between. Some just offer a partial refund, so how's that fair or even right? The rest just offer "credit" to buy another one of their products that I'm probably just going to have to return for more credit if I'm not to break their golden EULA. So I should just quit buying software. Piracy is a bad bad thing, but it's developers reaction to it that's causing them lost sales and unsatisfied customers.
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I cannot say you don't have a point, but it is up to US to make that change. We as consumers need to be able to return the product if it does not function as we expect. And it is publishers, not developers, who react badly! Devs design, Pubs produce.

Why can't we return software? POS is afraid we have used the CD Key or otherwise invalidated the product.

Why then doesn't the product sell in such a way that can't happen? Because publishers need to be assured someone can't simply buy a copy and send it to ten friends.

Why do Publishers do that? Because consumers figured out they could do that a long time ago, and greed one out over doing the right thing.

What are the consequences? We have contracts we can't agree to prior to purchase, and no way to decline the contract and get a refund.

Why have there been no solutions? Very good question! I don't know why someone somewhere doesn't think up a novel idea like having Serial and CD keys INSIDE another container while inside the game packaging. If unopened, it could then be returned to the POS for a full refund. Novel idea, eh? Heck, a publisher could even allow the software to be run in an evaluation mode so you could TRY IT on your system first to see if it meets with your approval before actually using the key and owning the license.

Who knows, the majority of the industry is just taking one step at a time without looking at where it has come from, few are adapting to consumer demands and even fewer are trying to stay ahead of the curve.
 
ryan_975 said:
The problem is second hand sale is a right granted to the consumer by law (first sale doctrine). So using DRM to prevent a consumer from selling a "work" they've purchased is breaking the law. Secondly, SecuROM has done absolutely nothing to stop piracy. It hasn't even slowed it down. The most recent SecuROM disaster that comes to mind was Bioshock. It was cracked at zero hour because of the demo. Someone in this thread said a crack was available within 'minutes' of GTA IV's release (while I believe at best it was hours). All this does is piss off the consumer and give something for code junkies to do. Piracy is even more rampant that it ever has been and the protection these companies seek so much is about as good as pointing a loaded gun at your own foot instead of the muggers.
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You are right, it is a problem. Yet publishers are continuing to include DRM measures with their software and are getting away with it. Doesn't that seem like a problem to you? :)

SecuROM has done a lot actually, in my opinion. It doesn't prevent it enough to warrant it, but I do think it works to a degree. Whomever mentioned this game being cracked that quickly was in error. Trust me. :;)

Piracy is more rampant just as much because it is "the new thing" to do as consumers getting annoyed. It's just another trend and as long as companies try to prevent it in the wrong ways, it is simply going to grow.

They should focus on wanting people to buy their products, literally. Not just saying "We want people to buy our stuff!" but actually spending time and effort on making their products worth while to the consumer! If I sit down to play a single player game, I want a game that lasts 40+ hours, has depth and complexity and isn't the same mind numbing boring grind over and over. That's worth $60. A four hour game with the same textures, same game play and same missions isn't!

With a number of companies rehashing the same thing over and over and over( WWII might come to mind? :D ) they are forgetting how to be unique and bring new IP to the table! The bean counters won't allow risks to be taken, as they want sure bets.
 
Inacurate said:
I cannot say you don't have a point, but it is up to US to make that change. We as consumers need to be able to return the product if it does not function as we expect. And it is publishers, not developers, who react badly! Devs design, Pubs produce.

Why can't we return software? POS is afraid we have used the CD Key or otherwise invalidated the product.

Why then doesn't the product sell in such a way that can't happen? Because publishers need to be assured someone can't simply buy a copy and send it to ten friends.

Why do Publishers do that? Because consumers figured out they could do that a long time ago, and greed one out over doing the right thing.

What are the consequences? We have contracts we can't agree to prior to purchase, and no way to decline the contract and get a refund.

Why have there been no solutions? Very good question! I don't know why someone somewhere doesn't think up a novel idea like having Serial and CD keys INSIDE another container while inside the game packaging. If unopened, it could then be returned to the POS for a full refund. Novel idea, eh? Heck, a publisher could even allow the software to be run in an evaluation mode so you could TRY IT on your system first to see if it meets with your approval before actually using the key and owning the license.

Who knows, the majority of the industry is just taking one step at a time without looking at where it has come from, few are adapting to consumer demands and even fewer are trying to stay ahead of the curve.
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The only problem is that the game is going to lock down and require a CD-key to continue. That CD key is going to need authentication to unlock the game and we're right back at square-one again. A consumer has a product they can't use and can't return.
 
what a clusterfuck. and i do believe that is an understatement. lol

i wasn't going to buy the game anyway seeing as that its probably just the same old formula from the last few games with some updated graphics. that = meh.

i bought the rockstar pack steam is selling. played the older versions and i really doubt i'm gonna miss out on anything regardless of DRM issues so they aren't gonna get a sale from me anyway. :p oh well
 
ryan_975 said:
The only problem is that the game is going to lock down and require a CD-key to continue. That CD key is going to need authentication to unlock the game and we're right back at square-one again. A consumer has a product they can't use and can't return.
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Eh? No it wouldn't?

In that example, the user gets to play the full game with no restrictions for an hour or so on a trial basis. They can do everything they could do if they put the CD key in. This allows them to see if they like the game, and if the game really runs. Of course you are not going to be able to interact with every single feature in the game, but some idea is better than none.

If they like the game, they get to input the CD key and continue on, without having to reinstall, start over or anything. If they don't like the game they could return it to the store( the store would need to make sure EVERYTHING was in good order ) and then the store could turn around and sell it again and it would be basically "brand new."

I realize there is a stigma attached in a situation like that, but I am sure there is a way to make everything a lot smoother and reduce the risk of something be missing or falling through. Hell how cheap is it to make a CD these days? Why not put the CD on the OUTSIDE of the box( in such a manner it couldn't be stolen and everything that could be damaged, used or touched and thereby making the product "used" inside. If the consumer likes the game, they open the box thereby making it theirs. If not, they get to return the unopened box with CD and the POS would just need to check the CD to ensure it was good to go and repackage it.

There is a process that could work, I just know it. But companies would need to deem such a process worthwhile for them to invest into it. They are not going to do that into consumers start standing up for themselves and demanding their money back for a non-functioning product! But you do have to give the companies a "reasonable" amount of time to fix their product. Like three business days.
 
Inacurate said:
Eh? No it wouldn't?

In that example, the user gets to play the full game with no restrictions for an hour or so on a trial basis. They can do everything they could do if they put the CD key in. This allows them to see if they like the game, and if the game really runs. Of course you are not going to be able to interact with every single feature in the game, but some idea is better than none.

If they like the game, they get to input the CD key and continue on, without having to reinstall, start over or anything. If they don't like the game they could return it to the store( the store would need to make sure EVERYTHING was in good order ) and then the store could turn around and sell it again and it would be basically "brand new."

I realize there is a stigma attached in a situation like that, but I am sure there is a way to make everything a lot smoother and reduce the risk of something be missing or falling through. Hell how cheap is it to make a CD these days? Why not put the CD on the OUTSIDE of the box( in such a manner it couldn't be stolen and everything that could be damaged, used or touched and thereby making the product "used" inside. If the consumer likes the game, they open the box thereby making it theirs. If not, they get to return the unopened box with CD and the POS would just need to check the CD to ensure it was good to go and repackage it.

There is a process that could work, I just know it. But companies would need to deem such a process worthwhile for them to invest into it. They are not going to do that into consumers start standing up for themselves and demanding their money back for a non-functioning product! But you do have to give the companies a "reasonable" amount of time to fix their product. Like three business days.
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But what if they do like the game? They still have the activation mess to deal with to get all the features of the game or as most companies would do it, even be able to continue the game. Besides, nearly all new games have a downloadable demo that serves the "trial-ware" role. Even then, it's still going to be cracked and pirated. And even worse, people will buy the game, install the trial-locked version from the disc, crack it to the unlocked state, then throw the unopened CD key on eBay. There is no solution to make dishonest people honest without hurting those who already are.

I have no problem jumping through their hoops. I understand the need for the protection, But they need to understand that as a legitimate paying customer, I'm not going to stand in front of a wall and wait for them to fix it.
 
g1xx3r said:
GTA4 DID NOT run for me out the box.Hell,I had settings clearly showing me in the red zone.Guess what,I pushed it and got the RESC10 error..After playing around,accepting it and making adjustments,Ive been enjoying the problem free ever since.
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This is what i hoped we had left behind in the DOS days, adjusting system settings to get software to run. Looks like we are taking steps backwards, this time becuase software is becoming to complex and not written to work the way it was designed.

Everything looks good on paper and in interviews, the implementation is where stuff lacks.

I won't play any game that i have to adjust system settings to get it to run, like i said, we have moved on from DOS
 
ryan_975 said:
But what if they do like the game? They still have the activation mess to deal with to get all the features of the game or as most companies would do it, even be able to continue the game. Besides, nearly all new games have a downloadable demo that serves the "trial-ware" role. Even then, it's still going to be cracked and pirated. And even worse, people will buy the game, install the trial-locked version from the disc, crack it to the unlocked state, then throw the unopened CD key on eBay. There is no solution to make dishonest people honest without hurting those who already are.

I have no problem jumping through their hoops. I understand the need for the protection, But they need to understand that as a legitimate paying customer, I'm not going to stand in front of a wall and wait for them to fix it.
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Demos are not always release prior to a release of the full game, and in some cases a demo is an early version of the game, or otherwise not a complete package when it looking at it from the installation point of view.

The activation and everything else doesn't play into tangent we have gone off on. It is going to be around anyways, I am not talking about replacing anything currently inplace. Only adding to and modifying it to appease the consumer in their ability to return the product.

This sort of solution would not help or hinder the piracy groups. They get it and crack it anyways. Heck, a company could make a game with TWO cd keys, one is for the limited trial period and could only be redeemed from the company online or over the phone at a toll free number or through e-mail or who knows.

There are so many different ways to protect this stuff, the problem is a majority of consumers don't want to jump through hoops, and that is something they are just going to have to get over if the hoops end up in having a better quality, less expensive product in the end.
 
I have been awaiting the release of GTA4 for PC since it was released on the consoles. I bought GTA3, Vice City, and San Andreas all on both Xbox and PC. I WILL NOT be getting GTA4 if the DRM issues are not solved. I can understand having to download a working EXE from the manufacturer, I had to do that for Crysis. I don't understand why they require me to sign into an online service to save my game. This is a PC game, I have a huge hard drive to store information, why does it have to be tied to the internet?

-1 point for Rockstar, and -1 consumer who would have bought the product.
 
Was anyone really surprised at this from that a company that makes a game in which you can kill thousands of innocent people, sell drugs, fuck prostitutes, kill police, etc?
 
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