[H] Enthusiast Waterblock Testing

R1ckCa1n said:
Except how well it will work on a motherboard and real CPU.........

The Fuzion is a great example of a block that would be so so on a simulated system but in real world kicks major ass.

What has been lost in this world is how well a block actually cools the CPU.
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So you have tested the Fuzion on a die sim then?
 
Petra said:
Justin, the "testing" method that you seem to be suggesting in your post above is, frankly, not one which belongs on any credible tech site as it is far too uncontrolled--especially considering the very small performance differences you're attempting to measure. There is a reason why only two tech sites, that I know of, have ever even attempted to properly evaluate waterblock performance...
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Thanks for your thoughts and explanations. On the flip side I see little advantage to our overall reader base by turning this into a science project that will produce little data that is usable by the masses. Bottom line is that there is no way your approach is marketable, but I do appreciate your point of view. Thanks again for sharing.
 
Petra said:
Well, that answers my first question pretty clearly and as such, beyond this post, there really isn't any point in my continuing in this thread. I remain available via PM and e-mail, however, if you happen to be in need of any assistance/advice/suggestions.

That said, does this mean that I get my test TDX back when you two are done playing? ;)
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Just send me an invoice for the block and I will pay for it. That way I am in no way indebted to you or have worry about damaging the block.

[email protected]
 
I hope this is not off topic too much, but I would like to add that my favorite article to read are the "DIY system for under $xxx". I really enjoy reading about component choice and why, and steps for setting it up.

Kind of like like your "Newegg [H]oliday 2006 System Build Guide", but with a added build guide.
Their easier reading and can be as fun as reading the tech support section in your system reviews.=-)

Hopefully once the water cooling component reviews are rolling in, you could find the resources to publish these annually.
 
Erasmus354 said:
Its ok, but it doesn't necessarily jive with the philosophy (as I understand it) of [H]ard|OCP testing. What you are suggesting is essentially what the artificial test beds are made out of. They use a copper die connected to a heat source (sometimes adjustable sometimes not). [H] wants to perform real world testing, which means using real processors. Personally I don't like that because of the inability to accurately measure the temperature, which is why I suggested they go through the effort of machining the groove into the IHS for the thermal probe, it would retain the real world element while giving them a much increased accuracy in their testing. I mean, they dont do video card reviews by eyeballing the frames per second.

The other problem is that processors aren't necessarily going to keep increasing in heat output. Right now about 100-130W is as hot as they can get and still work well on air cooling. Smaller processes, and recent breakthroughs in High-K materials will lend to lower power consumption. In fact the problem will likely be an increased thermal density as opposed to overall heat output. I mean right now you have a 100W bulb condensed into an area about the size of your thumbnail.
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how is it not real world? alot of people with watercooling in mind, would want to know how their block will scale as heat output increases from overclocking / upgrading...
 
0mega said:
how is it not real world? alot of people with watercooling in mind, would want to know how their block will scale as heat output increases from overclocking / upgrading...
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How many people use TECs? It isn't real world because a TEC has a much much larger surface area that needs to be cooled. this means that common waterblocks such as the TDX or Storm cant even cool a TEC. The only way to get around that would be to attach a copper slug to the TEC which would simulate a CPU die.....or a Die simulator, which is what the non real-world tests already do.

That is how it is not real world.

R1ckCa1n said:
I wouldn't, which is the point. How it performed at the Swiftech challenge (at CES 2006) was plenty and is real as it gets.
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So if you haven't tested it on a Die sim, and I dont know of anyone who has, then how can you make a blanket statement that the Fuzion wouldn't perform well on a die sim? I agree the Fuzion is a great block, but I dont agree with your use of blanket statements.

warmace said:
I hope this is not off topic too much, but I would like to add that my favorite article to read are the "DIY system for under $xxx". I really enjoy reading about component choice and why, and steps for setting it up.

Kind of like like your "Newegg [H]oliday 2006 System Build Guide", but with a added build guide.
Their easier reading and can be as fun as reading the tech support section in your system reviews.=-)

Hopefully once the water cooling component reviews are rolling in, you could find the resources to publish these annually.
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I really like this idea too. I think something like this would be really useful to the vast majority of people. What would be even better is if they do this after testing a number of components so they can point to proof of performance.
 
Erasmus354 said:
How many people use TECs? It isn't real world because a TEC has a much much larger surface area that needs to be cooled. this means that common waterblocks such as the TDX or Storm cant even cool a TEC. The only way to get around that would be to attach a copper slug to the TEC which would simulate a CPU die.....or a Die simulator, which is what the non real-world tests already do.

That is how it is not real world.


I really like this idea too. I think something like this would be really useful to the vast majority of people. What would be even better is if they do this after testing a number of components so they can point to proof of performance.
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So if you haven't tested it on a Die sim, and I dont know of anyone who has, then how can you make a blanket statement that the Fuzion wouldn't perform well on a die sim? I agree the Fuzion is a great block, but I dont agree with your use of blanket statements.

im talking about waterblocks scaling to heat output. i could care less the profile of the heat... if its REALLY that bad of an issue, a flat piece of copper on the TEC, die sized bit inbetween w/ thermal epoxy (AS5 would be best) then another slice of copper Thermal epoxied to that, to simulate the heat spreader... it wouldnt be perfect, but NO ONE ELSE tests waterblock scaling to heat output...
 
0mega said:
im talking about waterblocks scaling to heat output. i could care less the profile of the heat... if its REALLY that bad of an issue, a flat piece of copper on the TEC, die sized bit inbetween w/ thermal epoxy (AS5 would be best) then another slice of copper Thermal epoxied to that, to simulate the heat spreader... it wouldnt be perfect, but NO ONE ELSE tests waterblock scaling to heat output...
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Pop goes the weasel.

I know you want to see how waterblocks scale to heat. Unfortunately your not going to see exactly what you want from this. What you just described is a die simulator, which is decidedly not real world and completely opposite the testing philosophy of [H]ard|OCP. If you want to see temperature scaling look at overclocking and underclocking. A regular Core 2 Duo is around 65W. An overclocked quadcore or P4 can probably reach up to 130W. That is some pretty good temperature scaling.

Another issue is that processors aren't necessarily getting much hotter. In fact they are getting cooler or staying the same. The reason they wont get much hotter is because you can't cool something hotter adequately in OEM systems with air cooling. So it isn't that important to see temperature scaling either.


Anyways, I look forward to seeing the reviews, any ETA on when the first batch will be out Kyle or Justin?
 
Erasmus354 said:
So if you haven't tested it on a Die sim, and I dont know of anyone who has, then how can you make a blanket statement that the Fuzion wouldn't perform well on a die sim? I agree the Fuzion is a great block, but I dont agree with your use of blanket statements.
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You obviously don't understand what [H]ard|OCP is all about. How well a block performs on a static dim sim tells you nothing about how well it will interact with a CPU, in a real world loop, in real world conditions such as cases and consumer radiators. That is what [H] is all about, IMHO.
 
qdemn7 said:
"Entrants" :eek: That sounds like something from the Miss America Pageant. Let's hope you don't have the same sorts of problems. :p
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well if it turns out that one of the blocks was in pr0n or has a drinkning problem I will make sure to note it.:D
 
qdemn7 said:
(6) Explain why there is no need for cooling things like hard drives or PSUs.

(7) Show why ¼” based systems are inferior to 3/8” or ½” based systems.
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6 - Well, to be truthful ATM there is no need to cool anything in the computer with a water system. Many excellent performing CPUs with managable thermal charactoristics along with good air cooling products such as those from Zalman mean that water really isn't necessary.

But we still do it anyways, so a test methodology that would give a reasonable baseline to evaluate products, including what happens in a water system when lesser used blocks such as hard drive, north/south bridge chipset, RAM, etc are used.

7 - Your comment shows a predetermined bias, something that should have no place in a reputable review or testing process. What should be done is a testing methodology that shows where certian peramaters, one of them being flow rate & tubing size, are measured for performance. The idea of "inferior" may in most cases be completely irrevealent to the intended use. Your garden hose and gas powered 2500 GPH pump will certianly have more thermal capability then a 1/4" 100 GPH pump system. But then again, a commercial phase change system will have more thermal capacity then your garden hose setup- does that make the garden hose setup "inferior"? What matters is cold, hard, accurate data, so that readers can make informed decisions. They can look at the data on the 1/4" systems, and say "not enough" or "does what I need it too".

I may be wrong, but this is what I assume Kyle and the staff are thinking of as far as the purpose of these reviews.
 
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