HD DVD Players On Top Again

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Toshiba says that, in the on-going next-gen DVD format war, HD DVD has pulled ahead by a large margin. Next week, Blu-ray will declare themselves the winner….all the while, consumers are still the losers.

HD DVD players began outselling Blu-ray models starting in mid-September and regained a year-to-date lead of a little over 50% through the rest of the month, said Jodi Sally, Toshiba VP of marketing of digital A/V products. Year to date, according to NPD figures she cited, HD DVD players command 53% of sales; Blu-ray players, 44%; dual format players, 3%.
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Steve said:
Toshiba says that, in the on-going next-gen DVD format war, HD DVD has pulled ahead by a large margin. Next week, Blu-ray will declare themselves the winner….all the while, consumers are still the losers.
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"....all the while, consumers are still the losers."

Exactly...

It's too bad but I'd really wish one side would just give up, this war is rediculous
 
Screw HDDVD or Blu-Ray. Let's not look at the negative side of things. DVD is just as great. DVD players are WAY cheap. And They are wayyyy better than VHS.

Hopefully the two sides will come up with negotiation and make peace and we're all happy.
 
I hope whoever wins will figure out a dual disc approach(well if blue ray wins)... I like that I can watch a high def movie in my living room and then walk into my bedroom and watch the same movie on my $39 dvd player. Obviously I wouldn't do it one right after the other but you get what I mean. Also since my 360 got the rrod I was still able to watch my movies on my old dvd player. If I can do the same thing with blue ray I could care less who wins... I just can't afford a $500 dvd player for my bedroom.
 
I picked up a couple of Toshiba HD-A2 units at Futureshop last week, one for me, one for a Xmas gift.

The kicker? They sold for $199 each...that's $200 less than I paid for my first DVD player back in the day, and $400 less than I paid for my first S-VHS way back when.

At that price point (or the regular ~$250 the A2 normally goes for), it's no wonder HD-DVD is pulling ahead, since theres' still no Blu-Ray units for less than $500.
 
Croak said:
since theres' still no Blu-Ray units for less than $500.
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You mean like the 4 different players on Amazon right now for under $500 including the Sony S300 for $400? The A2 is also limited to 1080i output. It can't even output the full 1080p signal on the HD DVD disc. Besides, Toshiba loves to ignore the PS3...unless they want to throw in attachrate numbers, then it magically appears on their powerpoint slides.

Overall sales are still so insanely small. So you have 400k players (including the 360 addon) but most titles are only selling around 2k units. That is just sad. The only big movers on either side continue to be day and date titles, or former big blockbusters and guess who has the most this holiday season...
 
In the same vein , let say the PC should die as well as the PS3 and the 360 and we all should just have the wii and have games made for that only .
Cause then we will all have the same console and surely the games will be much better then having to deal with so many gaming options:rolleyes:.
Or perhaps we can finally get the option for a real quality increase this time when we buy the same title once again ,instead of the usual bullshit dvd reissue.
 
kind of a spin to celebrate when they only include standalones, but congrats toshiba?
 
LANm0nk3y said:
Screw HDDVD or Blu-Ray. Let's not look at the negative side of things. DVD is just as great. DVD players are WAY cheap. And They are wayyyy better than VHS.
Click to expand...

I'm not attacking you here, but your A/V setup must be pure crap.
 
PS3 != standalone player, therefore not included in the statistics. Do you include cell phones in digital camera sales? ;)

But obviously the consumers are voicing their choice for a standard that they can afford and is on their side.

Want reasons BR is failing? (although BR lovers are blindfolded to the situation)

- There are now less exclusive, potential, and current Blu-ray movie titles than HD DVD worldwide.
- The Blu-ray production costs are higher than HD DVD.
- To press Blu-ray disks, it requires building a new assembly line with new machinery, whereas HD DVD can use the current DVD pressing plants worldwide with a simple retrofit to the current machinery.
- Blu-ray now has less studio support than HD DVD.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because of higher hardware costs.
- The programmers and coders lose with Blu-ray because of the poor Java thought out design for interactive content.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because of BD+ requiring you to burn an ISO for firmware flashes on almost all players. Around half the players won't even currently play Fantastic Four because the companies haven't figured out how to properly make the firmware operate with BD+.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because there is no set standard for the Blu-ray spec, meaning in the future some movies might not play with older players.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because it has an added layer of copy protection (BD+) that screws up playback, or prevents playback if you don't flash your player every so often from a burnable ISO CD on the manufacturers website which is impossible to find.

etc..etc..etc... The list goes on.
 
w1retap said:
PS3 != standalone player, therefore not included in the statistics. Do you include cell phones in digital camera sales? ;)

But obviously the consumers are voicing their choice for a standard that they can afford and is on their side.

Want reasons BR is failing? (although BR lovers are blindfolded to the situation)

- There are now less exclusive, potential, and current Blu-ray movie titles than HD DVD worldwide.
- The Blu-ray production costs are higher than HD DVD.
- To press Blu-ray disks, it requires building a new assembly line with new machinery, whereas HD DVD can use the current DVD pressing plants worldwide with a simple retrofit to the current machinery.
- Blu-ray now has less studio support than HD DVD.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because of higher hardware costs.
- The programmers and coders lose with Blu-ray because of the poor Java thought out design for interactive content.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because of BD+ requiring you to burn an ISO for firmware flashes on almost all players. Around half the players won't even currently play Fantastic Four because the companies haven't figured out how to properly make the firmware operate with BD+.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because there is no set standard for the Blu-ray spec, meaning in the future some movies might not play with older players.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because it has an added layer of copy protection (BD+) that screws up playback, or prevents playback if you don't flash your player every so often from a burnable ISO CD on the manufacturers website which is impossible to find.

etc..etc..etc... The list goes on.
Click to expand...
I like your list, add one more (it's mine)

I hate Sony!!!!!!

:D

They do this blasted format war with every tech.
 
Sony fans still consider themselves winning. This is how they do math.

HDDVD 53% sales * 30GB = 1590
Blu-ray 44% sales * 50GB = 2200

ZOMG Blu-ray is still winning!!!
 
Ravenous said:
I hope whoever wins will figure out a dual disc approach(well if blue ray wins)... I like that I can watch a high def movie in my living room and then walk into my bedroom and watch the same movie on my $39 dvd player. Obviously I wouldn't do it one right after the other but you get what I mean. Also since my 360 got the rrod I was still able to watch my movies on my old dvd player. If I can do the same thing with blue ray I could care less who wins... I just can't afford a $500 dvd player for my bedroom.
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That would be a dual format disk. Some HD DVD's are currently like that. HD DVD on one side, and regular DVD on the other. They work really well, but it is usually $5 to $8 more than other regular HD DVD's.

It would be nice if they just made movies HD DVD on one side, and Blu-ray on the other.
 
kent said:
I'm not attacking you here, but your A/V setup must be pure crap.
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OUCH. It'z kool. It's not really that it's crap. I'm gonna go cry now.

Naw, honestly It's decent -- I'm not saying it's HD everything, but it's decent enough to consider it HD. I'm just tired of hearing that one week HD wins and next it's BD. I don't even care anymore. All I was really saying was that DVD is way better than VHS. I don't want to fork out $500 for a player.
 
"Sources have estimated that just 20% of PS3 owners have played movies on the machine."

She needs better sources
 
I'd be willing to bet that's a fairly accurate percentage of how many have watched an actual BR movie in full 1080p on their PS3. :p
 
In my personal opinion they both suck until one or the other becomes the standard. I'll stick with the old reliable and standardized dvd until that day comes. How long this format war is dragging out is really starting to piss me off.
 
Ravenous said:
I hope whoever wins will figure out a dual disc approach(well if blue ray wins)... I like that I can watch a high def movie in my living room and then walk into my bedroom and watch the same movie on my $39 dvd player. Obviously I wouldn't do it one right after the other but you get what I mean. Also since my 360 got the rrod I was still able to watch my movies on my old dvd player. If I can do the same thing with blue ray I could care less who wins... I just can't afford a $500 dvd player for my bedroom.
Click to expand...

Yea thats a real nice feature that some hd-dvd disks have. Personaly it is one I wish all of them would include. Makes the platform an easy upgrade choice in the sence you don't need to upgrade everything at once(like my notebook to one with a hd/blue ray drive).

Personaly I'm waiting on the 300 to 400 dollar dual format standalone player that will do both hd-dvd and blue-ray. I have a feeling it will end up with people having these and no one really caring just like you had the + and - types of recordable dvds.
 
w1retap said:
Sony fans still consider themselves winning. This is how they do math.
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You mean how BD has outsold HD DVD in software for 39 consecutive weeks? (It will be 40 weeks by tomorrow morning.) How the total number of discs sold on BD vs HD DVD is nearly 2:1? No need for math there, just simple counting will suffice. Sadly, most HD DVD enthusiasts don't know how to do that.

I also appreciate how the BD Studios have put lossless audio on 190 of their titles so far with every single major release coming this fall and holiday season containing lossless audio as well. HD DVD Studios, while TrueHD is manditory on the player, has only put out 55 titles with lossless audio and so far all of their major fall and holiday releases will not include it. If I wanted compressed audio I would have stuck with DVD.
 
LynxFX said:
You mean how BD has outsold HD DVD in software for 39 consecutive weeks? (It will be 40 weeks by tomorrow morning.) How the total number of discs sold on BD vs HD DVD is nearly 2:1? No need for math there, just simple counting will suffice. Sadly, most HD DVD enthusiasts don't know how to do that.

I also appreciate how the BD Studios have put lossless audio on 190 of their titles so far with every single major release coming this fall and holiday season containing lossless audio as well. HD DVD Studios, while TrueHD is manditory on the player, has only put out 55 titles with lossless audio and so far all of their major fall and holiday releases will not include it. If I wanted compressed audio I would have stuck with DVD.
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The sales margin went from 2:1 to 60:40, and it is still closing the gap. That is pretty embarrassing considering how many more total BR capable units there are out there.

You also don't need lossless audio for every movie. For some it just doesn't make a difference. In action movies such as the Matrix and Vendetta, it is great. There isn't a whole night and day difference on those titles from DD+ to TrueHD as your golden ears might fool you into thinking. The studio's do a really good job on the DD+ track. The only difference I hear on TrueHD tracks is during intense action scenes, the independent noises in the background stick out a little better. I've switched back and forth between lossless audio tracks comparing, and the difference just doesn't warrant it for some movies.
 
i like the screw them both approach...however i'll probably end up with HD at one point.

though i need to ask this...in all seriousness...at what point can the human eye stop telling the difference? i mean really, is the quality vs price really worth it on blue ray? i can't see it, all i see is another sony pushed hyped up tech that really has nothing compelling in my opinion. the disc size is nice..but the reality is that you can make 2 hd dvds for the price of a single blue ray. so am i missing something about blue ray?
 
Croak said:
I picked up a couple of Toshiba HD-A2 units at Futureshop last week, one for me, one for a Xmas gift.

The kicker? They sold for $199 each...that's $200 less than I paid for my first DVD player back in the day, and $400 less than I paid for my first S-VHS way back when.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's because you just bought these units last week... WAY late in the game IMO. At the same time frame, I bet DVD was much cheaper.


Croak said:
At that price point (or the regular ~$250 the A2 normally goes for), it's no wonder HD-DVD is pulling ahead, since theres' still no Blu-Ray units for less than $500.
Click to expand...

Let me know where you buy your crack from, I want to avoid buying at the same place.

michealo said:
kind of a spin to celebrate when they only include standalones, but congrats toshiba?
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They will only include units that will sway the vote towards their favor. If HD-DVD had a console unit out, you can bet ya they would be using those numbers.

w1retap said:
PS3 != standalone player, therefore not included in the statistics. Do you include cell phones in digital camera sales? ;)
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Who said anything about a PS3, what about bluray drive sales, bluray alternative media devices sales.

Oh wait, you are on your anti-Bluray propaganda train again.

w1retap said:
But obviously the consumers are voicing their choice for a standard that they can afford and is on their side.
Click to expand...

Once again, not a fact. Both drives are in the same price range. Lets be frank here, it's not like an HDTV owner is going to give a crap about a hundred bucks when it comes to availibility.

w1retap said:
Want reasons BR is failing? (although BR lovers are blindfolded to the situation)

- There are now less exclusive, potential, and current Blu-ray movie titles than HD DVD worldwide.
- The Blu-ray production costs are higher than HD DVD.
- To press Blu-ray disks, it requires building a new assembly line with new machinery, whereas HD DVD can use the current DVD pressing plants worldwide with a simple retrofit to the current machinery.
- Blu-ray now has less studio support than HD DVD.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because of higher hardware costs.
- The programmers and coders lose with Blu-ray because of the poor Java thought out design for interactive content.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because of BD+ requiring you to burn an ISO for firmware flashes on almost all players. Around half the players won't even currently play Fantastic Four because the companies haven't figured out how to properly make the firmware operate with BD+.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because there is no set standard for the Blu-ray spec, meaning in the future some movies might not play with older players.
- The consumer loses with Blu-ray because it has an added layer of copy protection (BD+) that screws up playback, or prevents playback if you don't flash your player every so often from a burnable ISO CD on the manufacturers website which is impossible to find.

etc..etc..etc... The list goes on.
Click to expand...


Keep blabbering your anti-Bluray propoganda. You keep up at it.


w1retap said:
Sony fans still consider themselves winning. This is how they do math.

HDDVD 53% sales * 30GB = 1590
Blu-ray 44% sales * 50GB = 2200

ZOMG Blu-ray is still winning!!!
Click to expand...


Yeah, thats exactly how they do the math :rolleyes:
 
i agree screw them both, i'm not investing in either tech until

a. they straighten it the **** out
b. someone releases a dual format player on teh cheap :)
 
Ockie said:
Who said anything about a PS3, what about bluray drive sales, bluray alternative media devices sales.
Click to expand...
I was referring to another poster's comment and clarifying that these numbers in the article didn't include any form of ROM drive or game system/addon. (both HDDVD and Blu-ray) It is strictly standalone sales numbers.

Oh wait, you are on your anti-Bluray propaganda train again.
Click to expand...
I was just trying to display the quick facts in a proper manor. HD DVD has its flaws too. Care to refute any of my points I made?

Once again, not a fact. Both drives are in the same price range. Lets be frank here, it's not like an HDTV owner is going to give a crap about a hundred bucks when it comes to availibility.
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If product x is cheaper than product y, the consumer will usually pick product x every time, since they both have almost all the same offerings.

Yeah, thats exactly how they do the math :rolleyes:
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Go on blu-crew.com and look at the arguments they make, it is embarrassing. :p
 
w1retap said:
- The Blu-ray production costs are higher than HD DVD.
- To press Blu-ray disks, it requires building a new assembly line with new machinery, whereas HD DVD can use the current DVD pressing plants worldwide with a simple retrofit to the current machinery.
etc..etc..etc... The list goes on.
Click to expand...

True statements but go to your local stores or online and check the prices of Blu Ray movies and HD-DVD movies. Tell me are consumers seeing this extra cost of production? Nope Blu Ray movies are typically cheaper then HD-DVD so no matter the cost to the producer all consumers care about is the cost to them.

Also all that other stuff at the end about movies not being compatible is bs. They know that to keep from being sued they must have compatibility for all it's media. It's the same reason why HD-DVD wont be used for games on the xbox 360 because anything with that xbox 360 game logo must be compatible with all it's line of product and unless Microsoft is willing to send everyone a HD-DVD drive it's just not happening.
 
w1retap said:
I was referring to another poster's comment and clarifying that these numbers in the article didn't include any form of ROM drive or game system/addon. (both HDDVD and Blu-ray) It is strictly standalone sales numbers.
Click to expand...

It's quite convenient to count only a particular segment to declare a winner.

w1retap said:
I was just trying to display the quick facts in a proper manor. HD DVD has its flaws too. Care to refute any of my points I made?
Click to expand...

I can refute your points yes, I think they are stupid points and much of the same can be said aout HD-DVD, however, I try and avoid a format war... the only war I delcare is on fanboism.

w1retap said:
If product x is cheaper than product y, the consumer will usually pick product x every time, since they both have almost all the same offerings.
Click to expand...

And this is the reason why people still buy Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Lamborghini, Buggatti over a Ford *sarcasm*. When you get in the high brackets of prices, $100 has no effect. When you get into low brackets, yes it has effects. However, as the current market lies, $100 for an HDTV owner seeking 1080p quality isn't going to be swayed much by $100.... hell, my cables costs so much each.

w1retap said:
Go on blu-crew.com and look at the arguments they make, it is embarrassing. :p
Click to expand...

... And let me know when they come here to post their stupid fanboyism crap here.... I'll bash them too.
 
Ockie said:
And this is the reason why people still buy Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Lamborghini, Buggatti over a Ford *sarcasm*. When you get in the high brackets of prices, $100 has no effect. When you get into low brackets, yes it has effects. However, as the current market lies, $100 for an HDTV owner seeking 1080p quality isn't going to be swayed much by $100.... hell, my cables costs so much each.
Click to expand...

The only problem with this statement (when applied to cars, it is true) is that high-def DVD is still considered a huge luxury for most people. The DVD market currently offers:

Upscale DVD = sub-$50
DVD = $13.88 - 19.99

HD DVD and Blu-Ray are hundreds more and the movies are twice what a standard DVD is. Asking consumers for another $100 on top of that for 1080p is ridiculous.

The sales figures for both...hell, both combined, is proof that the formats are just too damned expensive and people aren't willing to pay that kind of money on a format that could die (potentially) soon. The ONLY way one format will take off over the other one is by getting cheaper. When there is price parity between DVD and high-def DVD...we might see some real movement.

I've said it from the beginning but I'll say it again, what happens when one format wins and no one cares?
 
Steve said:
The only problem with this statement (when applied to cars, it is true) is that high-def DVD is still considered a huge luxury for most people. The DVD market currently offers:

Upscale DVD = sub-$50
DVD = $13.88 - 19.99

HD DVD and Blu-Ray are hundreds more and the movies are twice what a standard DVD is. Asking consumers for another $100 on top of that for 1080p is ridiculous.

The sales figures for both...hell, both combined, is proof that the formats are just too damned expensive and people aren't willing to pay that kind of money on a format that could die (potentially) soon. The ONLY way one format will take off over the other one is by getting cheaper. When there is price parity between DVD and high-def DVD...we might see some real movement.

I've said it from the beginning but I'll say it again, what happens when one format wins and no one cares?
Click to expand...

While I agree the extra 100 bucks is ridiculous how many people does it really effect?

I mean a lot of people argue back and forth with the 1080p support but most hdtvs are 720p. I would think even your average person going out and buying an hdtv that buys either blueray or hddvd is going to be running it at 720p or 1080i.
 
psychoace said:
True statements but go to your local stores or online and check the prices of Blu Ray movies and HD-DVD movies. Tell me are consumers seeing this extra cost of production? Nope Blu Ray movies are typically cheaper then HD-DVD so no matter the cost to the producer all consumers care about is the cost to them.

Also all that other stuff at the end about movies not being compatible is bs. They know that to keep from being sued they must have compatibility for all it's media. It's the same reason why HD-DVD wont be used for games on the xbox 360 because anything with that xbox 360 game logo must be compatible with all it's line of product and unless Microsoft is willing to send everyone a HD-DVD drive it's just not happening.
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The only HD DVD movie's I've seen that are more expensive are the dual format because they also contain a backwards compatible DVD for regular standard def players. Otherwise, the movies are same price from what I've seen both online and in stores. It doesn't really matter for the consumer, but in the long run it will effect the producer of the movie line. If they were to win the format war, they would want to make up for the loss in one way or another. It all trickles down to the consumer.

But you are incorrect about the compatibility. If a BR player comes without certain functionality support for a movie, it will not work properly (or possibly at all) with the movie that contains it. There is no final spec for BR hardware players, so it is entirely possible.

For current disks containing BD+, we're already starting to see compatibility problems and coders not being able to work out the bugs in firmware and software updates for the players. For PC users, there is still no update for BD+ movies so you can play them. The same goes for Samsung BR players, and Panasonic BR players take 2-3 minutes to load the movie, that is if you can get the firmware update to work right.
 
Steve said:
I've said it from the beginning but I'll say it again, what happens when one format wins and no one cares?
Click to expand...

I'll tell you what happens! Someone finally figures out how to make Minority Report's holographic movies a reality. And they're very philanthropic, so they care more about having achieved the technology. Prices are fair and everyone wins. Well, except Sony and Toshiba/NEC.
 
w1retap said:
Pretty much everyone in the middle class that manages their money.
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Yes, becuase we all know that people who are in the middle class and have a strict budget would buy either of the HD players, much less a HDTV :rolleyes: Anyone who has a strict budget would wait for the format war to play out and wait for the prices to drop.

I love how you just assume and brand things.


So let me get this straight, you built yourself a home theater, bought a 1080p projector, bought theater seating... and you are bitching about $100, if that. Now that is hallarious.
 
w1retap said:
Pretty much everyone in the middle class that manages their money.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with this as I would think most people in the middle class are not going to have a 1080p tv. Even if they go buy a nice new lcdtv most of them will be 720p.
 
Steve said:
The only problem with this statement (when applied to cars, it is true) is that high-def DVD is still considered a huge luxury for most people. The DVD market currently offers:

Upscale DVD = sub-$50
DVD = $13.88 - 19.99

HD DVD and Blu-Ray are hundreds more and the movies are twice what a standard DVD is. Asking consumers for another $100 on top of that for 1080p is ridiculous.

The sales figures for both...hell, both combined, is proof that the formats are just too damned expensive and people aren't willing to pay that kind of money on a format that could die (potentially) soon. The ONLY way one format will take off over the other one is by getting cheaper. When there is price parity between DVD and high-def DVD...we might see some real movement.

I've said it from the beginning but I'll say it again, what happens when one format wins and no one cares?
Click to expand...

So you are agreeing with me that it's a luxury item. So you think, somone who wants a luxury item... in addition to thier home theater/plasma/whatever... are going to let $100 or less for that matter... fall in their way?


If $100 is going to decide your home theater purchase or your next big purchase, perhaps your priorities are a little bit messed up and savings should rather be in order.
 
Already done. HDDVD does this with many titles. I do not believe it is possible with BluRay due to the totally different manufacturing technique involved.

HDDVD can do it easily because HDDVD can be made on the same assy line as regular DVD.

BluRay requires a completey new investment in manufacturing.

To me, this is a huge point for HDDVD

Ravenous said:
I hope whoever wins will figure out a dual disc approach(well if blue ray wins)... I like that I can watch a high def movie in my living room and then walk into my bedroom and watch the same movie on my $39 dvd player. Obviously I wouldn't do it one right after the other but you get what I mean. Also since my 360 got the rrod I was still able to watch my movies on my old dvd player. If I can do the same thing with blue ray I could care less who wins... I just can't afford a $500 dvd player for my bedroom.
Click to expand...
 
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